Guild Wars 2

Is a condi oriented MM feasible at all? The build I currently like is Soul Reaping MM, and I’ve dabbled with Spite here and there, but would a Curses MM be a decent alternative? (Even just flat condi keeping the tanky SR) I ask because I love MM, but think it could use a little more flavor. Thoughts?

You can do it, Curses/Death Magic/Blood Magic. I’d say it is weaker than normal power MM because scepter has significantly worse synergy than dagger does. The problem isn’t so much condi vs power anymore due to all important minion traits being in two lines, but more the available weapons and how well they work with what minions need.

If we say got a condi/support weapon and a CC/condi weapon that had support and CC on condition weapons, all of a sudden condi MM would be the stronger version.

I’m assuming that, in this situation, dagger offhand would still be pretty solid. Also, Carrion gear/amulet as well, yes?

I’d actually use WH offhand, the swiftness is major. And I’d use whatever the amulet that gives healing power, condition damage, and toughness is. Healing power is absolutely mandatory right now to keep minions alive.

Alright. I’ll consider it. Right now, like I said, I run full tank, SR MM. Though I do use Soldier amulet and I find it works well. Granted, minions don’t necessarily live long, but I can last through the cool down and in a team fight it works well because minions aren’t focused. So that’s why I thought possibly Carrion, but the healing power would make sense anyway, where I can’t also have the toughness

I currently love my condi mm build for pvp. It looks something like this, http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=V444;00-kHkD0s3wI-K0;9;4789;0158036258;9;1fgm9fgm92W

It does a great amount of direct damage from the minions obviously but i find it nice to be able to dish out nice condi damage aswell.

Might just have to try that at some point, Troll

I’ve been waiting to see if anyone else was running condi MM. I have since the update. I see most are threads about the direct damage/soldier rune MMs.

Anyways, here are two I’ve been switching back and forth from. I can’t decide which I like better.

First is a Cele rune one. Better heals, bit more direct damage to add to the minions and condi damage. Bigger health pool and more life force. But I have to use Lingering Curse, which I hate the skill, its just boring and a lazy way to get scepter up to were it should be on its own.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLhZ6kGRotGsrGwvGg9GckMUyLID+5ZQXApQMnv2AA-TJRFwAAeCADOFAPLDsZ/BA

Next is full condi Rabid version.
Higher toughness but lower health, so more susceptible to damage spikes. Pretty high up time of weakness, due to weakening shroud, to help stretch your smaller health pool out.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLhZ6kGRotGsrGwvGg9GccMUyNoDG6ZRnAtQsn32AA-TJRFwAAeCADOFARLD8a/BA

The minions only inherit your condition damage, condition duration and boon duration, all other stats are wasted for them.
Which means that their damage is fixed, however, since none of them applies a damaging condition except jagged horror and the wurm(only on the chain i believe) i don’t think it’s the best choice.

My choice of most important stats are: healing, thoughness and vitality, in that order.
Healing turns the blood fiend into a very good healer, plus it boosts by alot all vampiric traits, while thoughness > vitality as we have the highest base health of the game together with warriors, plus shroud.

Axe applies vuln, gives life force on demand (quite alot too) and converts boons to condis, plus applies retal which benefits from power.
Staff is an utility weapon, aside some bleeding and a little of poison there are no damaging traits (of course a second or two of fear if you run terror).
Scepter doesn’t have a high life force gain, the golem cripples already and the axe can do it as well.
Dagger benefits from the vampiric traits alot, can immobilize which is very very neat and the life force gained from the #1 chain is good.

Due to those reasons, i believe the best amulet for MM is cleric and in general power>condi for this kind of builds.

ButterOfDeath, I agree with alot of your post, except your choice of amulets. Here is why:

The minions only inherit your condition damage, condition duration and boon duration, all other stats are wasted for them.
Which means that their damage is fixed, however, since none of them applies a damaging condition except jagged horror and the wurm(only on the chain i believe) i don’t think it’s the best choice.

I highlighted an important fact. Those stats aren’t a waste for the necro themselves though. Because their damage is fixed, means it doesn’t matter how the necro applies their own damage since the minions damage will be the same no matter what. Also, the increased condi duration they get helps with cripple/blinds/immoblize that minions do.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

My choice of most important stats are: healing, thoughness and vitality, in that order.
Healing turns the blood fiend into a very good healer, plus it boosts by alot all vampiric traits, while thoughness > vitality as we have the highest base health of the game together with warriors, plus shroud.

With those stats you will totally have to rely on your minions for damage. The reason soldier/condi amulets work is because the opponent can’t ignore the necro but also can’t ignore the minions. Forces them to multitask, so to speak. Having Cleric amulet sure will help your minions survive some. But all the enemy has to do is ignore your pitiful damage, kill your minions(the real threat in your build) and then kill you after, when you can’t do any real damage to them.

I don’t think blood fiend is a good healer at all, right now. Its a siphon that can be blocked/blinded/CC’d/killed/or just plain not function(minion attacking bug) If it doesn’t hit you don’t get healed.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Axe applies vuln, gives life force on demand (quite alot too) and converts boons to condis, plus applies retal which benefits from power.
Staff is an utility weapon, aside some bleeding and a little of poison there are no damaging traits (of course a second or two of fear if you run terror).
Scepter doesn’t have a high life force gain, the golem cripples already and the axe can do it as well.
Dagger benefits from the vampiric traits alot, can immobilize which is very very neat and the life force gained from the #1 chain is good.

I agree with all of these. A couple of things to add though.

Staff 2 is only 4 1/2 seconds CD for 2 bleeds, can spam those bleeds pretty easy (for a condi build) for Blood Bond plus the regen can be nice.
Staff 4 can pack a pounch with power build.
Scepter 2 can slow the enemy down enough for your minions to get on target and start applying their damage/ own cripple. Plus the bleed is nice on a condi build.
Even Daggers damage will be pretty low with no crit and low power with Cleric amulet. All that life force you regen isn’t going to mean much if your skills don’t hurt, just going to delay your death.

I guess it just matter how you plan to play, aggressive or passive.

As mentioned, minion mechanics technically allow for any damage build because power, precision and crit damage don’t effect MM damage. Condiion builds pretty much have jagged horror/wurm (as ButterOfDeath pointed out) as condi damage opportunities.

However, Death Nova poison is a lot stronger now with stacking opportunities. When your minions get murdered this can be a lot of extra AoE condi DoT. I can’t remember, but I was pretty sure Death Nova didn’t trigger on bone minons when we used Putrid Explosion pre-patch. It appears now that they do so there’s that for condi users too. I assume minion condi transfers do not use your condi damage except for the conditions you apply to self.

My belief is that its really up to your playstyle and more importantly whether you’re better at playing power or condi based necros.

Sustain while minions are up and attacking is never really an issue. It’s what happens when they all get clobbered/cced which is the problem. In GW1 we were able to sustain our minions better while they sustained us and could depend on them always for DPS. So you have to ask yourself the questions:

“What weapon sets/combat styles fit me best when my minions are up and when my minions are down?”

“What weapon sets/combat styles will allow me to keep the pressure on enemies after my minions are all dead?”

The benefits of power weapon sets have already been made clear. So too has healing power for minion sustain and healing power/toughness combo for self-sustain and healing effectiveness. Except that if you’re not using regeneration, SoV or transfusion there’s really no point to healing power. The Blood Fiend attack doesn’t scale and siphons in general are pretty effective without investment.

Celestial stats are all about using “Jack of all trades, master of none” mantra to your advantage, hybridizing your damage. The advantage of MM is that you can focus your gear to be a lot more sustain/support oriented while still maintaining DPS or obtaining hybrid status. Might as well take advantage of that with cleric, apothecary, solder, dire, rabid etc.

Condi setups, especially melee oriented ones, can be more supportive of minions staying up. Or at least, killed at different times rather than burned all at once. Natural use of condition weapon skill rotations can keep AoE regeneration up 50-75% of the time. 100% of the time if you forget rotation and camp Staff while doing light condi damage (Better than camping staff with power).

Condi can be better at sustaining pressure at all ranges too. Minions a lot of the time attack one target and stay with it (or stop attacking due to AI). So they’re good AoE meatshields for a short time until they die, but aren’t so good at applying AoE pressure themselves. Just very good single target DPS. Add in AoE condis being applied at any range, and that forces players to make a harder choice when facing MMs as Kahnen alluded to. The question being:

“Do I kite and focus on the Minions first like I usually do? Or should I take out the Minion Master who’s DoTing me to death while I try to do so?”

I think Reaper will end up being a good power version of this in addition to AoE chills helping minion sustain and keeping the enemy CCed. It just won’t have the range pressure option.

In a straight up MM vs. MM fight, a condi MM will likely DoT to death or CC a power MM’s minions before they do the same. Depends on how compact the minions are. The new Necromanctic Corruption should have helped power MM with this though.

My personal condi MM gear setup is identical to my other condi sustain/support builds. Settler (Apoth in PvE/WvW), Runes of the Krait, Geomancy/Renewal sigils, Staff+Scepter/Dagger. Enter melee with close combat minions and start churning out AoE bleed and minor AoE weakness application. Let AoE regeneration naturally stack up on minions. Dodging on weapon swaps applies 5 stacks of AoE bleeds, regeneration and 800-1000 AoE healing alone with MoE, Geomancy and Renewal procs every 8-10 secs.

My biggest gripe with MM necro as condi is that the AI tends to fudge itself a lot easier because of all the AoE skills and target switching involved with condi damage. The second is scepter which is only really useful for Grasping Dead for another quick AoE bleed and the AA to maintain condi DPS in between weapon swaps/shroud. Feast of Corruption is almost useless. I just use it whenever its available for the lowly 3% LF generation.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

The minions only inherit your condition damage, condition duration and boon duration

This is not accurate, minions do not inherit any of your stats, but conditions they apply are treated as though you applied them in every way including traits.

Bhawb.7408:

ButterOfDeath.2873:

The minions only inherit your condition damage, condition duration and boon duration

This is not accurate, minions do not inherit any of your stats, but conditions they apply are treated as though you applied them in every way including traits.

Well that’s what the wiki says, if you get tons of precision they won’t crit more the same way that more power won’t make them hurt more. That’s what i meant.

kahnen.4815:

-snip-

Cleric has 900 power instead of 1200, it is a noticeable difference but it’s not that big.

In my build i went full bunker, i only use the minions to passively deal damage, soak conditions and “exploit” unholy martyr to generate tons of life force.
Usually i just cycle between axe 2+condi transfer+resummon and shroud.
Which means the healing of unholy sanctuary deals most of the job to keep me alive, while unholy martyr fills my life force.

In my case i can endlessy fight vs two opponents for example today i had a 11 minute fight at the enemy treb against a cele engineer, we fought for about 3 minutes until the treb got destroyed with my AoE and he fell down, then a full zerker guardian kept me busy for 2-3 minutes (like you mentioned, he would just destroy the minions then attack me, yet i never risked death), up until the engineer came back with the repair kit (he even asked if i was still fighting and i had the time to stop and reply lol), repaired the treb and fought me together with the guardian. I had to pop the auto shroud to cast putrid mark once but then i almost healed back to full and we kept the fight going until my team was at 470 points. After which we just went to the clocktower and i died 1v5 xD.

If i was running soldier i might’ve killed the engi due to the 300 bonus power, but it’d cost me all that amazing healing power and thoughness! Moments like those are priceless lol.
By the way, blood fiend is tankier than the flesh golem (wtf right?) and even if he attacks twice, in my build, it cleanses conditions, gives life force and will heal me no less than 7k health in a 16 seconds cooldown, plus it deals damage and soaks some hits.

Since i don’t need any condi cleanse as i run staff/AxeDagger the fiend will serve me good.

However, for a more well rounded and healthy build which doesn’t aim to endlessy tank your opponents, i agree that soldier is a good choice.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Well that’s what the wiki says, if you get tons of precision they won’t crit more the same way that more power won’t make them hurt more. That’s what i meant.

I know its what the wiki says, but it is an important distinction because minions proc Chilling Darkness, Bitter Chill, Parasitic Contagion, and Corrupter’s Fervor, which is an under appreciated benefit that condi builds can abuse a bit better.

With all of the input I’ve gotten, I’ve decided to focus on the SR Tank MM with Soldier Amulet. However, I decided to take Runes of the Undead to actually get a pertinent 6th benefit and to make my staff and tainted shackles just a little better. Currently this is my build: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-343Z;1sHkD0s3wI-K0;9;4A89;0048036157;45gV01;1jwmAjwmA6X

And suggested tweaks now that I’m more settled?

For SR MM
WH > D offhand
Cleric > Soldier
Bone Fiend > Bone Minions
FitG > Dumbfire
Soul Marks > Unyielding Blast
Unholy Sanctuary > Death Nova
Transfusion > Unholy Martyr
Leeching/Energy/Renewal sigils > anything

Also you should replace those runes because Undead just don’t offer anything meaningful. Pack would be a much higher benefit overall, Grove are also pretty hilarious.

And it is worth noting, though this is more preference, that Blood Bond, Banshee’s Wail, and Life from Death are all viable options.

The key thing to remember about SR MM is that the whole point of using SR is being obscenely tanky and allowing your minions to deal the damage while supporting them with healing to keep them alive. You are doing a much stranger “hybrid” build, which just isn’t worth doing on MM, you define your build by what 3rd trait you choose, with SR being highly defensive, Spite being more offensive, and Curses being condi. You need to pick which of the three you want and specialize.

Bhawb.7408:

For SR MM
WH > D offhand
Cleric > Soldier
Bone Fiend > Bone Minions
FitG > Dumbfire
Soul Marks > Unyielding Blast
Unholy Sanctuary > Death Nova
Transfusion > Unholy Martyr
Leeching/Energy/Renewal sigils > anything

Also you should replace those runes because Undead just don’t offer anything meaningful. Pack would be a much higher benefit overall, Grove are also pretty hilarious.

And it is worth noting, though this is more preference, that Blood Bond, Banshee’s Wail, and Life from Death are all viable options.

The key thing to remember about SR MM is that the whole point of using SR is being obscenely tanky and allowing your minions to deal the damage while supporting them with healing to keep them alive. You are doing a much stranger “hybrid” build, which just isn’t worth doing on MM, you define your build by what 3rd trait you choose, with SR being highly defensive, Spite being more offensive, and Curses being condi. You need to pick which of the three you want and specialize.

I really like tanky, but, on the other hand, I’m an aggressive player. So I use DS pretty offensively, which is why I trait Unyielding Blast. That being said, would spite be definitively better for my play style? (I like spearheading in deathmatch, for instance, because I can survive all the initial pain and then dish out some of my own while my team moves in)

Also, side note: Odd hybrid is, sadly/happily, my thing. And SR lets me live a bit longer while minions are down, so that’s one of my reasons for it

If you prefer offensive builds then yes Spite would be the preferred setup, in which case you go:
D/WH + A/D
Leeching/Renewal (or energy if needed), Pack Runes, Cleric amulet
Spite:mid/top/bot
Death:top/top/top
Blood:mid or bot/any/bot
SoV/Bone Minions/Bone Fiend/Flesh Wurm/Flesh Golem

So Soldier wouldn’t work well? Or would that build need to be yet another type of MM build?

I wouldn’t take Runes of the Undead without condi amulets. It’s not worth it especially with the new condi scaling and only for tainted shackles/staff bleeds/poison. You need about 1200+ condi damage to break even with pre patch scaling. that should tell you how bad your condi damage will be hovering at 100-300dmg. Better off taking power or defensive oriented Runes that give you nice bonuses.

If you want perma boosts with Soldiers amulet take Runes of the Ogre. Other options are Doylak, Lich, Strength, Melandru, Hoelbrak or Traveler (traveler allows you to drop warhorn and/or quickening thirst, but soldier amulet allows room for the latter).

Drop Dhuumfire for Foot in the Grave or Death Perception. you will get a lot more DPS from 50% crit chance of Death Perception compared to a super low burn tick. Not to mention Dhuumfire nerfs range of LB to 900.

Death Magic choices are fine. Take Transfusion over Unholy Martyr to help keep minions up. It’s about 2K healing I think base and will benefit from 450 extra healing power when you’re low on health. The extra revive benefits are independent of stats. Drop quickening thirst and take warhorn or traveler runes if you really want Blood Bond. Otherwise Quickening Thirst is fine for a speed boost.

Regardless, take warhorn instead of off-hand dagger for the extra siphon healing and DPS with Locust Swarm. Let minions condi clear you.

Edit: Bah let my post sit too long, Bhawb’s got you covered. :p

I had an idea for Corruptions/MM Necro, but haven’t played it much. On paper, synergy is there, however.

Vydahr.4285:

So Soldier wouldn’t work well? Or would that build need to be yet another type of MM build?

Soldier just isn’t really viable anymore, the problem is the recent update increased the damage on a lot of builds and largely increased the healing power scaling an MM will get. All siphon skills were boosted by 20% (which also increases the healing power scaling), Transfusion’s scaling went up, then quite a few new traits also increased the sources of healing power. In addition, MM got a good damage buff if you want to take it, so if you go Spite you don’t actually end up losing damage over the old Soldier builds.

I use condi since I imagine necromancers to damage opponents using conditions rather than power to be more appropriate (personal taste).

Bhawb, just curious what you would recommend for a Condi MM. Curses/BM/DM right? Rabid Stats or Shaman?

Bhawb.7408:

For SR MM
WH > D offhand
Cleric > Soldier
Bone Fiend > Bone Minions
FitG > Dumbfire
Soul Marks > Unyielding Blast
Unholy Sanctuary > Death Nova
Transfusion > Unholy Martyr
Leeching/Energy/Renewal sigils > anything

I feel like the recent yolo condi burst builds make D offhand much better, if you take axe/dagger main hand (of course this is for pvp) then you don’t need the extra life force.

Taking dhuumfire with 0 condi damage is a bad choice, especially since FitG is awesome now.

Speed of shadows is IMO better than soul marks, due to the recharge reduction and the movement speed.

Unholy Martyr is indeed better than transfusion for a pure MM build, even tho shorud 4 would fully heal all minions. The life force you gain is too extreme to pass up.

Due to that, i feel like unholy sanctuary is better than death nova if using clerics as it usually fills half my health in the usual 15-20 seconds i stay in shroud, plus it can be used with life from death to double heal when almost dead.
Death nova is very good too tho, but maybe it’s better for soldier.

Also, i feel like hydromancy is a viable alternative for the sigils as shill is a very helpful condition, both for you and your minions.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

I feel like the recent yolo condi burst builds make D offhand much better, if you take axe/dagger main hand (of course this is for pvp) then you don’t need the extra life force.

It depends on build, SR MM should be going d/wh and staff, you can’t afford to drop d/wh for a/d, you lose damage, CC, and healing, and gain basically nothing; a/d should only be subbed in for staff, and only in spite builds since it synergizes with the more offensive build.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Speed of shadows is IMO better than soul marks, due to the recharge reduction and the movement speed.

Warhorn > awful conditional movement speed. The recharge is unnecessary, you’ll never need DS that often. Soul Marks is two traits that used to be taken at master tier individually, now wrapped into a single adept trait, it is really strong.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Unholy Martyr is indeed better than transfusion for a pure MM build, even tho shorud 4 would fully heal all minions. The life force you gain is too extreme to pass up.

Not at all, a 6.3k AoE heal is worth more than LF, you already gain really good LF regeneration from d/wh no matter what build you are using, without Transfusion minions die and that hurts your build far more.

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Due to that, i feel like unholy sanctuary is better than death nova if using clerics as it usually fills half my health in the usual 15-20 seconds i stay in shroud, plus it can be used with life from death to double heal when almost dead.

Again, depends on SR vs Spite. US > DN for SR because SR is more defensive and suits the LF gain, but DN > US in Spite builds because you need it to kill people.

Shadow.7843:

Bhawb, just curious what you would recommend for a Condi MM. Curses/BM/DM right? Rabid Stats or Shaman?

Yep, DM/BM are mandatory for MM right now imo, Curses obviously for condi, and I would go Shaman because healing power is also super important to keep minions alive.

Ok, thanks Bhawb

I kinda lost some of the context in this thread. These builds were for pvp mostly? I just returned to GW2 and I currently have the zerkers d/wh + staff setup, but would much rather run condi + MM.