Guild Wars 2

I don’t understand all the ‘condi necro doesnt work’ threads. it’s working just peachy, just not like it used to. It’s no longer a “press 1 and stack conditions, then epidemic them all over” build.

try out signets with terror traits and a rabid amulet. spite, curses, soul reaping. take the traits that make sense and use your signets to crack boon builds.

seriously, it’s crazy strong. been running it all day, just take the cele signets build and adapt for terror. rampage? kitten off, dead warrior. juggernaut? don’t make me kittening laugh. shatterupt? use DS stab correctly, then counterburst; they have no condi clearing and you can corrupt the kitten out of their shatter/sig of inspiration builds.

Personally..The condi weapons are just bad for the job of condi application and also still nerfed for no reason. the damage comes, transferred condis, DS and corrupting boons. its not the actual weapons doing an amazing job.

cele signets and power still outpreform a rabid condi necro and would be a bad match up for rabid to boot because of lf generation and sustained pressure while in DS to soak the damage

gz for making it work for you though

i tried out cele signets earlier and had significantly lower dps. higher healing and that’s about it. kitten near anyone can straight up kite you too. you can’t play condi like you do power or hybrid, DS isn’t for soaking damage unless you really need it to- it’s for dps.

if you’re using scepter 1 to deal damage you aren’t playing condi necro right, it’s not the AA that deals the damage with this build. it’s spectral grasp into 2.5s fears and dark path that deal the burst. plague, locust, and vamp signet are dealing the damage on anyone with stab or high stacks of might. That amounts to all the popular builds right now. play smart and boon eles and guards drop like you wouldn’t believe, i love fighting burn guards when they pop CDs for that 10 stacks of burn only to have them plagued back.

it’s hilarious when people use the long lasting condi skills on a power build, they’re just asking to have it returned with staff 4 or generosity sigils.

(Top to bottom)
Death Magic – 3-2-2
Soul Reaping – 2-3-3 (Dhuumfire or FitG)
Curse – 2-3-3
Rabbid Amulet
Rune of the Nightmare
Doom x2/Generosity/energy
CC/CPoison Cloud/WoSuffering/SWall/Plague

Been running this “terrormancer” condi build with success. Like power condi builds have a lot of variations. All depends what play style you want to run and what role you want to fill. Note this build is EXTREMELY slow.

Everything may work.
It’s just that some builds are significantly easier+effective+universal and they become the meta.

I can make Condition Necromancer work, but if I played competetively, why would I? I mean, it’s like hiking in flip flops.

Egorum.9506:

i tried out cele signets earlier and had significantly lower dps. higher healing and that’s about it. kitten near anyone can straight up kite you too. you can’t play condi like you do power or hybrid, DS isn’t for soaking damage unless you really need it to- it’s for dps.

if you’re using scepter 1 to deal damage you aren’t playing condi necro right, it’s not the AA that deals the damage with this build. it’s spectral grasp into 2.5s fears and dark path that deal the burst. plague, locust, and vamp signet are dealing the damage on anyone with stab or high stacks of might. That amounts to all the popular builds right now. play smart and boon eles and guards drop like you wouldn’t believe, i love fighting burn guards when they pop CDs for that 10 stacks of burn only to have them plagued back.

it’s hilarious when people use the long lasting condi skills on a power build, they’re just asking to have it returned with staff 4 or generosity sigils.

Condi Necro=high Burst Damage, poor sustained damage, low survivability
Cele Necro= Good Sustained Damage, poor burst damage, high survivability

So in my mind cele outperforms condi just because its good at 2 out of 3 things I’m using to grade it, while condi is only good at 1 out of those 3 things.

I wrote an extremely long post 2 weeks ago or so about why condi necro isn’t optimal right now. I dig it up so here’s my indepth analysis in the post below (had to double post because it was so long.

1. Curses traitline is kind of messed up for non-hybrid builds. You basically need any 2 of the 3 master tier traits in curses to be effective, but obviously the system makes it impossible. Meanwhile 2 GM traits are useless , and the useful one, weakening shroud isn’t really build defining like terror actually is.

2. Corruption rework and master corruption is bad. Your corruption skills will have too long of a recharge without the MoC trait, but the extra condis they apply are a bit much as you cannot possibly transfer back all of them without leaving yourself vulnerable to enemy condi bursts. Its just impractical. A heal skill should never blind you. The conditions that they apply to you are also too short to really be useful when transferred but stacked high enough that with condi damage they actually hurt you significantly as you use the skills over time. Therefore the only “viable” condi nec build uses signets over corruptions. Why use corrupt boon and poison yourself when you can just use signets, corrupt almost as much while doing other powerful effects and building might stacks? I can go on and on, on why corruptions are horrible (plague killing you with bleedstacks before it was hotfixed, and only corrupt boon, consume conditions, and plague being worth using at all) but I don’t want this post to get too long. Yeah, its THAT bad.

3. Condi application is still balanced around dhuumfire being strong as it was when it was first introduced, but with the condi rework, dhuumfire is no longer strong or GM worthy. It will be much better with reaper due to faster AoE cleave application, but right now the overall condi stacking output is far too low to have good sustained damage. We still have the nerfs to other skills, like mark of blood, from when dhuumfire was “balanced”, and now dhuumfire does much less damage.. resulting in overall horrible sustained damage pressure.

4. Boon corruption changed to RNG priority removes tactical use of boonstrip, so no more stripping stability reliably into a fear chain, which really hurt the terrormancer ability to secure kills strategically. Terrormancer was always about burst condi application, and this ruined the ability to use boon corruption as burst.

5. With no dire amulet, condi necro is far too fragile on carrion or rabid for the amount of damage it actually brings. Even with foot in the grave, it doesn’t give enough stunbreaks or stability to make up for the innate lack of tankiness.

6. The cele meta of shoutbow/ele/engi made pure condition specs have 0 pressure in teamfights in the past. Now ele/support guard/mantra mesmer has the same effect of tons of AoE condi cleanse just from those classes doing their normal rotations and self heals in teamfights, meaning that condition necromancer won’t be able to keep up with the cleansing without many other condi focused classes that can stack condis better to outpace the cleanse (condi cleave comp). As a rule of them, condi builds become more and more useless the larger the fight becomes, unless backed up by more condi specs, which also suffer from the same lack of tankiness/sustain. So stacking condi builds on a team to outpace cleansing would be bad because carrion amulets don’t let you tank a point.

7. The only decent condi specs on other classes have a lot of similar problems that make them unviable in teamfights, but much better bleed and burn stacking ability that the necro can’t compete with, that actually can be effective in more scenarios. Burning is too strong, and necro has so little of it because of the way in which dhuumfire is balanced for reaper.

8. Condi necro has poor life force generation, mainly due to the scepter 3 being strange. This is relevant to point 5. Deathshroud needs both toughness and vitality to be tanky in larger fights.

9. Few cover conditions too. Very little blind/vuln compared to say a condi mesmer with ineptitude. Torment application is also weak compared to what an unfinished revenant, a condi mesmer, or condi thief can do. Even if those classes have similar teamfight problems and can’t hold a point, they just stack condis with cover condis so much better.

I think that about covers it. Celestial and tanky power necro is really really good though because it avoids most of the flaws that make condition necromancer so terrible in conquest. Cele necro easily gets to 25 might stacks, has boon removal, near perma weakness, and is tanky enough to actually survive in deathshroud in teamfights from base stats alone, and it has good life force generation. Condi necro could be better in stronghold since it has smaller fights generally, but this is not yet certain.

Rym.1469:

Everything may work.
It’s just that some builds are significantly easier+effective+universal and they become the meta.

I can make Condition Necromancer work, but if I played competetively, why would I? I mean, it’s like hiking in flip flops.

Meta gets set by the winners of tournaments not because of effectiveness of the build. Winning team are the teams that rotate and have the best synergy between each others build. The team that will win WTS will be the team that can out rotate the enemy team (create favorable match ups) (The Abjured do this the best imo) and has good synergy between the builds that each team member runs in team fights.

Every class has its own niche a few examples are :

Necro – Condi transfer/Boon rip (Every build variation will have some form of transfer/boon rip)
Thief – Mobility/Stealth (Every build variation will have some form of stealth/mobility)
Guardians – Boons/Condi clear (Every build variation will have some form of boons applied/condi clear)

Note : Each class has more then 2 but just giving a quick example

But any class can be condi dps, direct dps, bunker and support AND be effective. Thats the whole point of GW2.

Thanks for pointing out the mess that is the Master of Corruptions trait. You don’t get a good enough return for the investment you put in, imo, especially given how Path of Corruption and Terror are much better traits. Prepatch, I never felt the need to trait for corruptions because a 15-second epidemic worked well with my rotation but I don’t really want to take the trait now either because:

A) in some cases, the self-applied conditions kitten you more than anything,
B) and as @nearlight pointed out, they don’t last long enough to warrant wasting a transfer on them.

Not exactly the most well thought out trait. Also, if you want us to consider taking Parasitic Contagion, please make it work in DS?

Condi necros are hell of a fun in WvW. Okayish in Spvp. Horrible in Pve.

It’s not worth the investment scepter/dagger are weak links,Curses Master tier is a mess,the damage/sustain ratio is not worth it,bleeds are too weak,nightmare runes don’t cut krait is a better choice. All condition specs on all classes are subpar to other specs.

The biggest problem with conditionmancer is very poor Life Force generation (defeating the purpose of Necromancer = attrition) and very low condition application. It doesn’t mean it’s “dead” people just like to overreact.

When I say the following I’m at least 50% certain it’s just a case of self-validation but the weaknesses of conditionmancer are what I believe make it the hardest build to play as a Necromancer. You have more toughness and vitality than you would as a power build but that doesn’t make up for the fact that your damage output and sustain are both very poor if you don’t know how to manage your utility.

I guess you could say that conditionmancer is dead in higher tier PvP but otherwise I still see lots of them. It takes more patience to play it properly but it’s still quite strong. I’ve been using this build ( WvW ) ever since the major patch and a very similar version pre-patch. An absolute ton of burst potential, albeit terrible sustained pressure, and with all Spectrals quite good Life Force generation given you know when to pop them. Lich Form, now that it’s a Spectral, is also quite good for a free 20% Life Force and 100% condition cleanse (Grim Scepter #5) which doesn’t even need to hit anything to cleanse you. It’s also fun for the intimidation factor, makes a lot of people run off when you pop it when really all I’m doing is stripping all the conditions on me (if against a condition heavy build and CC is on cooldown) and bumping my Life Force back up a bit.

nearlight.3064:

Egorum.9506:

i tried out cele signets earlier and had significantly lower dps. higher healing and that’s about it. kitten near anyone can straight up kite you too. you can’t play condi like you do power or hybrid, DS isn’t for soaking damage unless you really need it to- it’s for dps.

if you’re using scepter 1 to deal damage you aren’t playing condi necro right, it’s not the AA that deals the damage with this build. it’s spectral grasp into 2.5s fears and dark path that deal the burst. plague, locust, and vamp signet are dealing the damage on anyone with stab or high stacks of might. That amounts to all the popular builds right now. play smart and boon eles and guards drop like you wouldn’t believe, i love fighting burn guards when they pop CDs for that 10 stacks of burn only to have them plagued back.

it’s hilarious when people use the long lasting condi skills on a power build, they’re just asking to have it returned with staff 4 or generosity sigils.

Condi Necro=high Burst Damage, poor sustained damage, low survivability
Cele Necro= Good Sustained Damage, poor burst damage, high survivability

So in my mind cele outperforms condi just because its good at 2 out of 3 things I’m using to grade it, while condi is only good at 1 out of those 3 things.

I wrote an extremely long post 2 weeks ago or so about why condi necro isn’t optimal right now. I dig it up so here’s my indepth analysis in the post below (had to double post because it was so long.

Well, I’ve been playing this condi Necro for a while and it does 2 out of 3 of those things really well. good condi burst, good sustained damage and okay survivability (depending on how you spec it). Your ideas that you may need certain things for the build to work may be keeping you from really giving it a proper try.

I actually gave the build to Djooce before I made my guide and he played it and fell in love with it because of how much power it has. He actually went from Rabid to Cele and back to Rabid again because, whilst Cele provides good survivability, the damage from Rabid is just undeniably amazing.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Personally..The condi weapons are just bad for the job of condi application and also still nerfed for no reason. the damage comes, transferred condis, DS and corrupting boons. its not the actual weapons doing an amazing job.

This. I don’t hate condimancer myself. But it feels incomplete. It feels far too reliant on the opponent stacking boons massively, so you can counter with corruptions; or the opponent applying a lot of conditions on you, so you can counter with condi-return.
I miss the weapons having a good enough impact to apply conditions ourselves.
Grasping Hands and Enfeebling Blood are decent, but other than that you’re relying a lot on signets and corruption.

Also nearlight made some really good points. I don’t think the condimancer is far off from being great in sPvP though.

nearlight.3064:

Condi Necro=high Burst Damage, poor sustained damage, low survivability
Cele Necro= Good Sustained Damage, poor burst damage, high survivability

So in my mind cele outperforms condi just because its good at 2 out of 3 things I’m using to grade it, while condi is only good at 1 out of those 3 things.

I wrote an extremely long post 2 weeks ago or so about why condi necro isn’t optimal right now. I dig it up so here’s my indepth analysis in the post below (had to double post because it was so long.

In what way is cele gaining higher survivability over rabid? dagger 2 and 560 healing power is the only difference, and since you’re not running any of the traits that benefit from healing power…? dagger 2 generates 1.7k hp with a cele build and locks you into a predictable skill, that’s not worth enough to cripple your range. the only difference in LF generation is dagger AA, which again, you have to be on top of the opponent to benefit from. Do you allow a dagger necro to sit on top of you the whole game, because i sure don’t. The extra vitality you gain isn’t beneficial, toughness benefits necros far more than vitality because of DS already doubling our ehp pool.

The only time cele has more sustained damage over rabid is if you sit on the opponent, which isn’t practical against anyone other than a warrior. Meanwhile, all your major damage sources (DS, corrupts, condi xfers) are dealing half the damage of a rabid build.

the difference in sustained damage and sustainability is negligible between the two builds, while condi offers much higher burst. the only place where cele signets beats out rabid terror signets is LF generation, and even then it’s only situational.

everything good about cele signets, rabid signets can do as well and to greater effect.

Egorum.9506:

nearlight.3064:

Condi Necro=high Burst Damage, poor sustained damage, low survivability
Cele Necro= Good Sustained Damage, poor burst damage, high survivability

So in my mind cele outperforms condi just because its good at 2 out of 3 things I’m using to grade it, while condi is only good at 1 out of those 3 things.

I wrote an extremely long post 2 weeks ago or so about why condi necro isn’t optimal right now. I dig it up so here’s my indepth analysis in the post below (had to double post because it was so long.

In what way is cele gaining higher survivability over rabid? dagger 2 and 560 healing power is the only difference, and since you’re not running any of the traits that benefit from healing power…? dagger 2 generates 1.7k hp with a cele build and locks you into a predictable skill, that’s not worth enough to cripple your range. the only difference in LF generation is dagger AA, which again, you have to be on top of the opponent to benefit from. Do you allow a dagger necro to sit on top of you the whole game, because i sure don’t. The extra vitality you gain isn’t beneficial, toughness benefits necros far more than vitality because of DS already doubling our ehp pool.

The only time cele has more sustained damage over rabid is if you sit on the opponent, which isn’t practical against anyone other than a warrior. Meanwhile, all your major damage sources (DS, corrupts, condi xfers) are dealing half the damage of a rabid build.

the difference in sustained damage and sustainability is negligible between the two builds, while condi offers much higher burst. the only place where cele signets beats out rabid terror signets is LF generation, and even then it’s only situational.

everything good about cele signets, rabid signets can do as well and to greater effect.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Celestial offers higher effective health power because it gives you both vitality and toughness, having only one of those stats, even in a higher amount is nowhere near enough to be considered tanky.

Here’s my mathematic proof, assuming pvp stats and Soul Reaping with full Deathshroud
EHP Carrrion: 95,530.912
EHP: Rabid: 96,006.116
EHP: Celestial: 108,938.448

But there is more. You fail to appropriately comprehend the significance of the life force generation difference between the meta cele build and condi builds that you describe. Every way you look it at it, you can’t deny that dagger/warhorn provides much higher life force generation than scepter/dagger, with soul marks on staff being similar between the two. Feast of corruption is horrible life force generation compared to dagger autos and locust swarm. Additionally cele builds usually have spectral armor as a utility (and from the minor trait as your build would have) while condi builds typically bring flesh wurm or spectral walk instead, but regardless spectral armor brings more life force generation over time (SA has a lower CD than Swalk) and gives protection to help the necro survive more. The condi builds you survive don’t have any source of protection aside from the traited last gasp. Additionally where your build will probably want to take signet of spite or corrupt boon, the cele build takes signet of the locus which is a 1.5K per target heal (that can heal you up to 7.5K HP if used against 5 targets).

Now onto damage. The main reason that cele necro has much better sustained damage is because of death perception. Because celestial brings ferocity and power, death perception ensures that your life blasts hit very hard, in fact the damage isn’t much lower than a comparative trait set up with a marauder amulet, due to the ease of mightstacking. Cele necro has much better might stacking than a condi necro traited into spite, since cele necro will actually be able to deal good damage from life blast to proc reaper’s might, and it takes strength runes while condi builds have no might duration and condi damage rune. Additionally the extra sustain and ehp you have on cele lets you use traited dark path (arguably the base necromancer’s best skill) much more often and freely since it won’t be fragile enough to get destroyed by using it in a teamfight.

So I’ve proven that your arguments are completely and entirely wrong. Please know that I don’t think that condi necro is completely unviable, I just think that its suboptimal compared to celestial necromancer in the current metagame for these reasons, and the reasons I’ve listed above. Who knows? Condi reaper could be a thing that could very well save the concept since its sustained condi damage potential looks like it will be stronger with the right trait setup while having more survivability from certain reaper traits, but we’ll have to test it and see.

Interesting stuff in here i only wonder how long will it take for them to change those horrible corruption changes. Those extra condition don’t bring anything new or needed to necro kitten nal as its been already said but instead bring another level of unneeded micromanagement with little to no benefits…

Tbh i never saw necro as class that have much use of of cele stats but i guess that stuff is decent on anything.

The problem with condi necro, or at least terrormancer, is that it’s “burst” and disengage is inferior to the meta burst builds in every way. Why take a terrormancer when you can take a mesmer or a thief? The only thing I could come up with would be boon corruption, but that isn’t worth the mobility, utility those classes provide.

Cele necro is better at almost everything compared to condi nec. Burst damage, sustain, sustain damage, and might stacking cele necro is better. For condi necro to be good again, scepter needs significant buffs, offhand dagger needs LF gen, and terror needs to be GM and deal 1.5k damage per tick in a condi amulet (or another way to get more damage out of it).

nearlight.3064:

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Celestial offers higher effective health power because it gives you both vitality and toughness, having only one of those stats, even in a higher amount is nowhere near enough to be considered tanky.

Here’s my mathematic proof, assuming pvp stats and Soul Reaping with full Deathshroud
EHP Carrrion: 95,530.912
EHP: Rabid: 96,006.116
EHP: Celestial: 108,938.448

But there is more. You fail to appropriately comprehend the significance of the life force generation difference between the meta cele build and condi builds that you describe. Every way you look it at it, you can’t deny that dagger/warhorn provides much higher life force generation than scepter/dagger, with soul marks on staff being similar between the two. Feast of corruption is horrible life force generation compared to dagger autos and locust swarm. Additionally cele builds usually have spectral armor as a utility (and from the minor trait as your build would have) while condi builds typically bring flesh wurm or spectral walk instead, but regardless spectral armor brings more life force generation over time (SA has a lower CD than Swalk) and gives protection to help the necro survive more. The condi builds you survive don’t have any source of protection aside from the traited last gasp. Additionally where your build will probably want to take signet of spite or corrupt boon, the cele build takes signet of the locus which is a 1.5K per target heal (that can heal you up to 7.5K HP if used against 5 targets).

Now onto damage. The main reason that cele necro has much better sustained damage is because of death perception. Because celestial brings ferocity and power, death perception ensures that your life blasts hit very hard, in fact the damage isn’t much lower than a comparative trait set up with a marauder amulet, due to the ease of mightstacking. Cele necro has much better might stacking than a condi necro traited into spite, since cele necro will actually be able to deal good damage from life blast to proc reaper’s might, and it takes strength runes while condi builds have no might duration and condi damage rune. Additionally the extra sustain and ehp you have on cele lets you use traited dark path (arguably the base necromancer’s best skill) much more often and freely since it won’t be fragile enough to get destroyed by using it in a teamfight.

So I’ve proven that your arguments are completely and entirely wrong. Please know that I don’t think that condi necro is completely unviable, I just think that its suboptimal compared to celestial necromancer in the current metagame for these reasons, and the reasons I’ve listed above. Who knows? Condi reaper could be a thing that could very well save the concept since its sustained condi damage potential looks like it will be stronger with the right trait setup while having more survivability from certain reaper traits, but we’ll have to test it and see.

There’s zero math there? you’re just throwing out numbers lol.

Base Rabid: 19k DS, 19.5k hp pool=38.5k
Base Cele: 19k DS, 25.1k hp pool=44.1k

assuming anything past that point is null and void, you cannot predict every scenario. they dodge your dagger 2, EHP drop. you’re fighting one target, no big locust heal, EHP drop. also, i said that you’re running the same build as condi terror signets as cele signets. the only changes are PoC for Terror and the fear trait in soul reaping for decreased CD. Scepter for dagger, maintaining the WH offhand for all the reasons you’ve listed above. The only utility difference is swapping out SA for SG because you can run FitG over DP and don’t need the stunbreak. SA is great when you get jumped with no LF, nightmare runes provide the same function in an immediate peel and set up for a SG.

The sole difference between the builds in LF generation is dagger AA, which is highly unreliable. No one runs a build that requires them to stay in 180 range because it’s completely unfeasible to keep someone that close. scepter AA is ranged and deals comparable damage to cele dagger even in the ideal scenario where you can sit on top of someone and AA away.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLhZ6kGRoyGs1GwzGg/GcgLUwrOAWg4WPBfANNKjvA-TJhHwAB3fAwpAAZZgxPBAA

It’s the same build, based on the same principles. only better.

Egorum.9506:

nearlight.3064:

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Celestial offers higher effective health power because it gives you both vitality and toughness, having only one of those stats, even in a higher amount is nowhere near enough to be considered tanky.

Here’s my mathematic proof, assuming pvp stats and Soul Reaping with full Deathshroud
EHP Carrrion: 95,530.912
EHP: Rabid: 96,006.116
EHP: Celestial: 108,938.448

But there is more. You fail to appropriately comprehend the significance of the life force generation difference between the meta cele build and condi builds that you describe. Every way you look it at it, you can’t deny that dagger/warhorn provides much higher life force generation than scepter/dagger, with soul marks on staff being similar between the two. Feast of corruption is horrible life force generation compared to dagger autos and locust swarm. Additionally cele builds usually have spectral armor as a utility (and from the minor trait as your build would have) while condi builds typically bring flesh wurm or spectral walk instead, but regardless spectral armor brings more life force generation over time (SA has a lower CD than Swalk) and gives protection to help the necro survive more. The condi builds you survive don’t have any source of protection aside from the traited last gasp. Additionally where your build will probably want to take signet of spite or corrupt boon, the cele build takes signet of the locus which is a 1.5K per target heal (that can heal you up to 7.5K HP if used against 5 targets).

Now onto damage. The main reason that cele necro has much better sustained damage is because of death perception. Because celestial brings ferocity and power, death perception ensures that your life blasts hit very hard, in fact the damage isn’t much lower than a comparative trait set up with a marauder amulet, due to the ease of mightstacking. Cele necro has much better might stacking than a condi necro traited into spite, since cele necro will actually be able to deal good damage from life blast to proc reaper’s might, and it takes strength runes while condi builds have no might duration and condi damage rune. Additionally the extra sustain and ehp you have on cele lets you use traited dark path (arguably the base necromancer’s best skill) much more often and freely since it won’t be fragile enough to get destroyed by using it in a teamfight.

So I’ve proven that your arguments are completely and entirely wrong. Please know that I don’t think that condi necro is completely unviable, I just think that its suboptimal compared to celestial necromancer in the current metagame for these reasons, and the reasons I’ve listed above. Who knows? Condi reaper could be a thing that could very well save the concept since its sustained condi damage potential looks like it will be stronger with the right trait setup while having more survivability from certain reaper traits, but we’ll have to test it and see.

There’s zero math there? you’re just throwing out numbers lol.

Base Rabid: 19k DS, 19.5k hp pool=38.5k
Base Cele: 19k DS, 25.1k hp pool=44.1k

assuming anything past that point is null and void, you cannot predict every scenario. they dodge your dagger 2, EHP drop. you’re fighting one target, no big locust heal, EHP drop. also, i said that you’re running the same build as condi terror signets as cele signets. the only changes are PoC for Terror and the fear trait in soul reaping for decreased CD. Scepter for dagger, maintaining the WH offhand for all the reasons you’ve listed above. The only utility difference is swapping out SA for SG because you can run FitG over DP and don’t need the stunbreak. SA is great when you get jumped with no LF, nightmare runes provide the same function in an immediate peel and set up for a SG.

The sole difference between the builds in LF generation is dagger AA, which is highly unreliable. No one runs a build that requires them to stay in 180 range because it’s completely unfeasible to keep someone that close. scepter AA is ranged and deals comparable damage to cele dagger even in the ideal scenario where you can sit on top of someone and AA away.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLhZ6kGRoyGs1GwzGg/GcgLUwrOAWg4WPBfANNKjvA-TJhHwAB3fAwpAAZZgxPBAA

It’s the same build, based on the same principles. only better.

560 toughness + 560 healing power + 560 vitality is way better than 900 toughness. Signet of locust, signet of vampirism, and your regen will heal for more. Also, dagger has better lf gen than scepter. These are all well accepted facts, and the one autoproc fear for 1 second won’t make up the difference. You can think otherwise if you want, but it’s pretty dumb to say rabid with scepter is tankier than cele with dagger.

You can continue to think what you want, but the facts are that the cele build stacks might faster, has more reliable damage, and is tankier.

Egorum.9506:

There’s zero math there? you’re just throwing out numbers lol.

Base Rabid: 19k DS, 19.5k hp pool=38.5k
Base Cele: 19k DS, 25.1k hp pool=44.1k

assuming anything past that point is null and void, you cannot predict every scenario. they dodge your dagger 2, EHP drop. you’re fighting one target, no big locust heal, EHP drop. also, i said that you’re running the same build as condi terror signets as cele signets. the only changes are PoC for Terror and the fear trait in soul reaping for decreased CD. Scepter for dagger, maintaining the WH offhand for all the reasons you’ve listed above. The only utility difference is swapping out SA for SG because you can run FitG over DP and don’t need the stunbreak. SA is great when you get jumped with no LF, nightmare runes provide the same function in an immediate peel and set up for a SG.

The sole difference between the builds in LF generation is dagger AA, which is highly unreliable. No one runs a build that requires them to stay in 180 range because it’s completely unfeasible to keep someone that close. scepter AA is ranged and deals comparable damage to cele dagger even in the ideal scenario where you can sit on top of someone and AA away.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBLhZ6kGRoyGs1GwzGg/GcgLUwrOAWg4WPBfANNKjvA-TJhHwAB3fAwpAAZZgxPBAA

It’s the same build, based on the same principles. only better.

I used this calculator to run the EHP calculations.
http://output.jsbin.com/ohidik/1

Also you’re wrong because with a rabid amulet, you only have up to about 15K health in life force, assuming your team even kills enough people for you to even get it that full… So know I’m not throwing out numbers since I used a calculator to calculate the balance between health and armor in each build, but you’re wrong because you didn’t even get the true amount of deathshroud health of a rabid amulet build correct.

Also since you take master of terror over vital persistence, your sustain is even lower and you can’t terror burst as much due to cooldowns.

And while it is true that you can’t predict every scenario it is widely accepted that terrormaster is a great 1v1 build, but isn’t as great in teamfights for the reasons I’ve listed in my 9 point post above. Cele necro is also great at 1v1s even if it takes slightly longer to kill things, while it has much more survivability in teamfights, and you can be more flexible in your positioning. Dagger autos deal more damage than scepter autos because the scepter autos stack bleeds very slowly and while they last really long, they will generally be cleansed before their full duration is reached if you’re fighting a team that has a d/d ele or support guard or inspiration mesmer on their team.

As to your point about people not sitting in range to let them be dagger autoed, thats not a good reason. Cele necro is tanky enough to be in melee and unless the enemy wants to give up the point to you, they can’t really kite you effectively. The only threatening thing that really kite dagger autos is a mesmer, but they get wrecked by dark path and life blasts so its a non issue. I have never had trouble landing dagger autos against a target that wasn’t a staff/GS mesmer, but thats only because they can kite anything melee.

Our current trait layout makes power and hybrid builds more effective.

Condi builds have too many traits competing in the same spot. Terror or POC. Weaking shroud or Ling curse. Vital persistence? not if you want Master of terror.

Dhumfire…
corruption skills…

current amulet/trait synergy just makes condi necro weak atm

Bleeds are weak as hell, burning is much stronger.

Problem with condition mancer is warriors are better at stacking bleeds than us, engineers are the kings of burning and many other cover condies, and poison is a tie between engineer/thief/ranger.

Condi necromancer excels at NOTHING in terms of condi application. It has modest access to the weakest conditions (bleeding, poison), miserable access to the strongest (burns), and worst of all his aoe condi pressure is far inferior to an engineer.

Engineers have always eclipsed all other condi builds. They get to frontload conditions more quickly, more of them are available (confusion, bleeding, poison, and birning in high amounts in one class), and to top it off engineers can apply those via aoe much better, they have better active defenses (turret heal is the best heal ingame, elixir s+ toolkit gear shield for several seconds of invulnerability).

Engineers also have lots of valuable combo fields and blast finishers, meaning they give themselves boon rather well as well as stealth, so they’re like a better necromancer who also has strong access to self buffing via might stacks and blasting water/smoke fields.

Zenith.7301:

Bleeds are weak as hell, burning is much stronger.

Problem with condition mancer is warriors are better at stacking bleeds than us, engineers are the kings of burning and many other cover condies, and poison is a tie between engineer/thief/ranger.

Condi necromancer excels at NOTHING in terms of condi application. It has modest access to the weakest conditions (bleeding, poison), miserable access to the strongest (burns), and worst of all his aoe condi pressure is far inferior to an engineer.

Engineers have always eclipsed all other condi builds. They get to frontload conditions more quickly, more of them are available (confusion, bleeding, poison, and birning in high amounts in one class), and to top it off engineers can apply those via aoe much better, they have better active defenses (turret heal is the best heal ingame, elixir s+ toolkit gear shield for several seconds of invulnerability).

Engineers also have lots of valuable combo fields and blast finishers, meaning they give themselves boon rather well as well as stealth, so they’re like a better necromancer who also has strong access to self buffing via might stacks and blasting water/smoke fields.

Whilst bleeds have slow damage build up and poison too, it’s the combination of Bleeds, poison, vuln, might stacks, torment and fears that make up the cusp of the damage that necro deals. They don’t need burning. They excel at fears.

Login.5102:

Our current trait layout makes power and hybrid builds more effective.

Condi builds have too many traits competing in the same spot. Terror or POC. Weaking shroud or Ling curse. Vital persistence? not if you want Master of terror.

Dhumfire…
corruption skills…

current amulet/trait synergy just makes condi necro weak atm

Isn’t the name of the game min/maxing? Finding the most optimal combination meaning, a certain trait will be weaker in a given combination so you just eliminate it from your options?
You don’t need PoC if you’ve got Signet of Suffering, if you want more survivability go for Vital Persistence, if you want longer fears meaning more damage, go for Master of Terror, Dhuumfire = more damage, Foot in the Grave = more survivability, Death Perception = Variability in your damage tools.

It’s all about how you want to spec. This mentality of “every choice must be easy for me” needs to die in a fire. It’s how we end up with Eles and Mesmers. Oh wait, I forgot, that’s exactly what most of you complainers say you don’t want but are inadvertently pushing for.

Dirame.8521:

Zenith.7301:

Bleeds are weak as hell, burning is much stronger.

Problem with condition mancer is warriors are better at stacking bleeds than us, engineers are the kings of burning and many other cover condies, and poison is a tie between engineer/thief/ranger.

Condi necromancer excels at NOTHING in terms of condi application. It has modest access to the weakest conditions (bleeding, poison), miserable access to the strongest (burns), and worst of all his aoe condi pressure is far inferior to an engineer.

Engineers have always eclipsed all other condi builds. They get to frontload conditions more quickly, more of them are available (confusion, bleeding, poison, and birning in high amounts in one class), and to top it off engineers can apply those via aoe much better, they have better active defenses (turret heal is the best heal ingame, elixir s+ toolkit gear shield for several seconds of invulnerability).

Engineers also have lots of valuable combo fields and blast finishers, meaning they give themselves boon rather well as well as stealth, so they’re like a better necromancer who also has strong access to self buffing via might stacks and blasting water/smoke fields.

Whilst bleeds have slow damage build up and poison too, it’s the combination of Bleeds, poison, vuln, might stacks, torment and fears that make up the cusp of the damage that necro deals. They don’t need burning. They excel at fears.

Who gives a kitten about fear, it’s useless in PvE all it’s useful for ever since the defiance changes affecting fear is to get you booted out of the party for spreading mobs.

Engineer can might stack better than a necromancer and have similar bleed and poison output, with burning and confusion on top of it all. And engineer is one of the best classes at stacking vulnerability as well.

Why are you answering my post, a post obviously tailored to PvE, with PvP counterpoints?

Necromancer is among the weakest condi specs in PvE. This is not debatable, there’s plenty of spreadsheets and videos showcasing optimal DPS condi setups and builds for PvE out there. Start with DnT.

Sinister Engi>Burning Guard>Sinister Ranger= Condi warrior>Condi ele> Condi Mesmer>Necromancer.

And then there’s the fact that a condimancer, being the worst condi class for PvE also brings no group support or boosts to group DPS remotely competitive with the alternatives.

Zenith.7301:

Who gives a kitten about fear, it’s useless in PvE all it’s useful for ever since the defiance changes affecting fear is to get you booted out of the party for spreading mobs.

Engineer can might stack better than a necromancer and have similar bleed and poison output, with burning and confusion on top of it all. And engineer is one of the best classes at stacking vulnerability as well.

Why are you answering my post, a post obviously tailored to PvE, with PvP counterpoints?

Necromancer is among the weakest condi specs in PvE. This is not debatable, there’s plenty of spreadsheets and videos showcasing optimal DPS condi setups and builds for PvE out there. Start with DnT.

Sinister Engi>Burning Guard>Sinister Ranger= Condi warrior>Condi ele> Condi Mesmer>Necromancer.

And then there’s the fact that a condimancer, being the worst condi class for PvE also brings no group support or boosts to group DPS remotely competitive with the alternatives.

Well if we’re talking PvE then no worries. I was talking PvP.

Dirame.8521:

Zenith.7301:

Who gives a kitten about fear, it’s useless in PvE all it’s useful for ever since the defiance changes affecting fear is to get you booted out of the party for spreading mobs.

Engineer can might stack better than a necromancer and have similar bleed and poison output, with burning and confusion on top of it all. And engineer is one of the best classes at stacking vulnerability as well.

Why are you answering my post, a post obviously tailored to PvE, with PvP counterpoints?

Necromancer is among the weakest condi specs in PvE. This is not debatable, there’s plenty of spreadsheets and videos showcasing optimal DPS condi setups and builds for PvE out there. Start with DnT.

Sinister Engi>Burning Guard>Sinister Ranger= Condi warrior>Condi ele> Condi Mesmer>Necromancer.

And then there’s the fact that a condimancer, being the worst condi class for PvE also brings no group support or boosts to group DPS remotely competitive with the alternatives.

Well if we’re talking PvE then no worries. I was talking PvP.

Yeah Ceimash (I remember you as Jebro in Deathshroud). I respect Zenith for his argumentative skills, but he mainly focuses on PvE with some exceptions, whereas people like us see these types of topics as PvP debates, which they in general tend to be. On these forums its not always clear which of the 3 game modes is being discussed in depth, which can be frustrating sometimes.

Anyway as far as PvP is concerned, as I said before I beleive condi necro is viable, but not optimal, but reaper trait synergies have the potential to change that.

nearlight.3064:

Dirame.8521:

Zenith.7301:

Who gives a kitten about fear, it’s useless in PvE all it’s useful for ever since the defiance changes affecting fear is to get you booted out of the party for spreading mobs.

Engineer can might stack better than a necromancer and have similar bleed and poison output, with burning and confusion on top of it all. And engineer is one of the best classes at stacking vulnerability as well.

Why are you answering my post, a post obviously tailored to PvE, with PvP counterpoints?

Necromancer is among the weakest condi specs in PvE. This is not debatable, there’s plenty of spreadsheets and videos showcasing optimal DPS condi setups and builds for PvE out there. Start with DnT.

Sinister Engi>Burning Guard>Sinister Ranger= Condi warrior>Condi ele> Condi Mesmer>Necromancer.

And then there’s the fact that a condimancer, being the worst condi class for PvE also brings no group support or boosts to group DPS remotely competitive with the alternatives.

Well if we’re talking PvE then no worries. I was talking PvP.

Yeah Ceimash (I remember you as Jebro in Deathshroud). I respect Zenith for his argumentative skills, but he mainly focuses on PvE with some exceptions, whereas people like us see these types of topics as PvP debates, which they in general tend to be. On these forums its not always clear which of the 3 game modes is being discussed in depth, which can be frustrating sometimes.

Anyway as far as PvP is concerned, as I said before I beleive condi necro is viable, but not optimal, but reaper trait synergies have the potential to change that.

Yea, I guess I’ll start almost every post with “In PvP” from now on. and glad you recognize me. The problem I have with your thoughts is that, I don’t feel the Cele Necro is that great but, I can’t argue much because it’s just my opinon

Dirame.8521:

nearlight.3064:

Dirame.8521:

Zenith.7301:

Who gives a kitten about fear, it’s useless in PvE all it’s useful for ever since the defiance changes affecting fear is to get you booted out of the party for spreading mobs.

Engineer can might stack better than a necromancer and have similar bleed and poison output, with burning and confusion on top of it all. And engineer is one of the best classes at stacking vulnerability as well.

Why are you answering my post, a post obviously tailored to PvE, with PvP counterpoints?

Necromancer is among the weakest condi specs in PvE. This is not debatable, there’s plenty of spreadsheets and videos showcasing optimal DPS condi setups and builds for PvE out there. Start with DnT.

Sinister Engi>Burning Guard>Sinister Ranger= Condi warrior>Condi ele> Condi Mesmer>Necromancer.

And then there’s the fact that a condimancer, being the worst condi class for PvE also brings no group support or boosts to group DPS remotely competitive with the alternatives.

Well if we’re talking PvE then no worries. I was talking PvP.

Yeah Ceimash (I remember you as Jebro in Deathshroud). I respect Zenith for his argumentative skills, but he mainly focuses on PvE with some exceptions, whereas people like us see these types of topics as PvP debates, which they in general tend to be. On these forums its not always clear which of the 3 game modes is being discussed in depth, which can be frustrating sometimes.

Anyway as far as PvP is concerned, as I said before I beleive condi necro is viable, but not optimal, but reaper trait synergies have the potential to change that.

Yea, I guess I’ll start almost every post with “In PvP” from now on. and glad you recognize me. The problem I have with your thoughts is that, I don’t feel the Cele Necro is that great but, I can’t argue much because it’s just my opinon

You’re on EU right though? Aren’t condi builds used more often over there in general? Also while I don’t follow the EU scene as much as NA, I can’t really think of any well known necromancers in higher tier EU unlike NA.

nearlight.3064:

Dirame.8521:

nearlight.3064:

Dirame.8521:

Zenith.7301:

Who gives a kitten about fear, it’s useless in PvE all it’s useful for ever since the defiance changes affecting fear is to get you booted out of the party for spreading mobs.

Engineer can might stack better than a necromancer and have similar bleed and poison output, with burning and confusion on top of it all. And engineer is one of the best classes at stacking vulnerability as well.

Why are you answering my post, a post obviously tailored to PvE, with PvP counterpoints?

Necromancer is among the weakest condi specs in PvE. This is not debatable, there’s plenty of spreadsheets and videos showcasing optimal DPS condi setups and builds for PvE out there. Start with DnT.

Sinister Engi>Burning Guard>Sinister Ranger= Condi warrior>Condi ele> Condi Mesmer>Necromancer.

And then there’s the fact that a condimancer, being the worst condi class for PvE also brings no group support or boosts to group DPS remotely competitive with the alternatives.

Well if we’re talking PvE then no worries. I was talking PvP.

Yeah Ceimash (I remember you as Jebro in Deathshroud). I respect Zenith for his argumentative skills, but he mainly focuses on PvE with some exceptions, whereas people like us see these types of topics as PvP debates, which they in general tend to be. On these forums its not always clear which of the 3 game modes is being discussed in depth, which can be frustrating sometimes.

Anyway as far as PvP is concerned, as I said before I beleive condi necro is viable, but not optimal, but reaper trait synergies have the potential to change that.

Yea, I guess I’ll start almost every post with “In PvP” from now on. and glad you recognize me. The problem I have with your thoughts is that, I don’t feel the Cele Necro is that great but, I can’t argue much because it’s just my opinon

You’re on EU right though? Aren’t condi builds used more often over there in general? Also while I don’t follow the EU scene as much as NA, I can’t really think of any well known necromancers in higher tier EU unlike NA.

There are some good Necros on EU, it’s just the one person I respect as one the best PvP necros doesn’t play as much. I do follow the NA scene a bit, and I’ve seen a few matches. My thoughts from what I’ve seen is that the build is carried by it’s positioning relative to teammates. Not entirely by it’s own survivability and or damage. Which is the staple for most Necro builds. The only difference is that one build has more effective HP and the other has more condi-deeps.
I’ve also heard that Nos might have a “secret” build, which might mean that he himself doesn’t think the Cele build is the be all, end all.