Guild Wars 2

As being reported on Reddit right now

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3062j3/bleed_stacks_over_25_in_beta/

What’s fellow necromancers thought on this?
It’s been shown in the same thread that on the boss it goes past 100.
This is at least proof that their changing things/working on them and now I’m curious as to want affect this will have once HoT comes out.

Hoping this is for pve only.

Will probably only be the case on larger bosses, but that is most excellent news. Condition builds might finally be wanted in dungeons.

That said, I notice Vulnerability is still just 25. That is the one stacking condition they really should just leave alone, though.

While its nice. We still dont want everyone jumping on the condi bandwagon for open world. Especially far harder encounters.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Will probably only be the case on larger bosses, but that is most excellent news. Condition builds might finally be wanted in dungeons.

That said, I notice Vulnerability is still just 25. That is the one stacking condition they really should just leave alone, though.

Why? I don’t see any problem with allowing Vulnerability to stack up to 100+… ;p

On a more serious note for Necromancers, Epidemic may become a lot more useful in boss fights with adds etc. Even if they capped the amount of condi stacks at 25 per Epidemic cast.

Viable condi builds would be really nice to give a bit more variety to the PvE meta. Will be interesting to see how this works out in the end.

You will see a TON more condi players if it sticks. Condi will overrule zerkers in big boss fights. Maybe not still in speed runs, but big fights. If you can continue to stack condies, the continuous damage output would be far superior to zerkers. Zerk’s will have their speed runs still. Condis will come into harder content.

This better just stick to PvE. PvP would be lost forever if it went there too.

YAY!!!
My Condi Mancer is now useful!!

Can’t Wait!

GhOst.4019:

PvP would be lost forever if it went there too.

Why? What builds do ever reach 25+ stacks in solo play?

Frankly, I almost hope it doesn’t happen because now everyone is going to think its okay to run condi in groups when it is still massively subpar in almost every situation. All of a sudden we’ll have people running condi Necro talking about how they are contributing, as though they aren’t doing half the damage of a proper build.

Its a nice change and it needs to happen eventually, but they really need to fix PvE design at the same time.

Imagine the first boss after the change that transfer the conditions back at the players.

Bran.7425:

Imagine the first boss after the change that transfer the conditions back at the players.

Well of Power → 30 minutes of might, fury, swiftness, and protection… sounds good to me lol.

If you get 25 stacks + in pvp of bleeding, then you would also be already dead by any power build that has hit you so many times. It’s totally fair.

PvE condi necro is awesome now, good amount of bleed for an average dps, yet finally you can use your weakness skills to get actually usefull in high level fractals. Maybe a bit euphoric, but I will definitly get my necro a condi outfit.

I just hope people realize that the cap was only 1 part of the problem. condition builds still do 20-40% less damage overall than zerker builds for various reasons. Plus they still don’t work on objects, can’t crit, and scale 3-4x slower than zerker stats.

If everyone flocks to condi builds things are not going to get easier.

GhOst.4019:

You will see a TON more condi players if it sticks. Condi will overrule zerkers in big boss fights. Maybe not still in speed runs, but big fights. If you can continue to stack condies, the continuous damage output would be far superior to zerkers.

This is simply false. The maximum potential damage of a condi build is far lower than a berserker build. The stack limit has never been the main reason for condi builds being unpopular. Its their ramp up time and their low maximum damage. Condi builds are good in solos because they dont need as many buffs to be moderately to highly effective. But in any group content direct damage should still be far superior.

All this change means is that condi players dont get their damage completely destroyed by competing condis. And as a result condi builds arent quite as bad for open world anymore. But they will still be frowned upon (although more accepting) in any encounters that require the entire group to contribute as much as possible. Basically timer boss fights like Triple Trouble and Tequatl (dps checks).

Bhawb.7408:

Frankly, I almost hope it doesn’t happen because now everyone is going to think its okay to run condi in groups when it is still massively subpar in almost every situation. All of a sudden we’ll have people running condi Necro talking about how they are contributing, as though they aren’t doing half the damage of a proper build.

Its a nice change and it needs to happen eventually, but they really need to fix PvE design at the same time.

Your take on this is quite correct. Power will still be better for burst damage as conditions are incapable of doing such. They actually function quite the opposite by building over time.

However if this change sticks and is universal, there won’t be a group cap of 5-7K condi damage per second (that’s not counting lower dps condi procs by power builds), which is what made it so inferior to power.

In elongated or non-stationary encounters, condi damage may become superior in that once it’s applied and built up, enemies are consistently being hit with condi DPS no matter how mobile/defensive they are (unless they remove condis).

This change definitely closes the gap considerably between condi damage and power damage in PvE.

spoj.9672:

This is simply false. The maximum potential damage of a condi build is far lower than a berserker build. The stack limit has never been the main reason for condi builds being unpopular. Its their ramp up time and their low maximum damage. Condi builds are good in solos because they dont need as many buffs to be moderately to highly effective. But in any group content direct damage should be still far superior.

All this change means is that condi players dont get their damage completely destroyed by competing condis. And as a result condi builds arent quite as bad for open world anymore. But they will still be frowned upon (although more accepting) in any encounters that require the entire group to contribute as much as possible. Basically timer boss fights like Triple Trouble and Tequatl.

Isn’t ramp up time less of a proplem due to the long duration of the fight? Isn’t the lower maximum damage also not a problem due to being semi organized ?

Edit: scratched the teuatle question, I forgot the double damage phase.

Is the difference in maximum dmg output bewteen condi+zerker really so far apart? With condi running full sinster i figured it wouldnt be that far off tbh…..obv not talking about burst dmg though zerk will always win that.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Well of Power -> 30 minutes of might, fury, swiftness, and protection… sounds good to me lol.

Or you could be taking a dirt nap faster than you can respond to the tranfer.

Papish.5806:

Is the difference in maximum dmg output bewteen condi+zerker really so far apart? With condi running full sinster i figured it wouldnt be that far off tbh…..obv not talking about burst dmg though zerk will always win that.

Epidemic. You can swap around conditions extremely quick, with multiple necros and a good timing you could spread a very high amount of conditions very quickly far surpassing the possible damage of zerker builds. But then on the other side conditions clears remove all of the stacks.

Celectial engi, condition staff mesmer for single target dips, aoe condi necro + weakness for higher fotm, yes there will be good stuff. Not every class is weaker as condi

I was mainly just referring to the above posts of condi having lower potential max dps compared to zerker,in what i would assume, would be a single target encounter. Epi obviously throws encounters for condi in their favor if there is tons of mobs to aoe that keep respawning due to the low cd of epi+copying full stacks(100+) of bleeds and everything else to the mobs instantly.

Was just figuring a 6/6/0/0/2 condi necro in full sinister(taking close to death and not dhuumfire since it would be covered by other classes) could not be that much less potential dps as a full zerker necro. But of course i have not looked into/done math to see.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I just hope people realize that the cap was only 1 part of the problem. condition builds still do 20-40% less damage overall than zerker builds for various reasons. Plus they still don’t work on objects, can’t crit, and scale 3-4x slower than zerker stats.

If everyone flocks to condi builds things are not going to get easier.

But the cap is the biggest hurdle. As long as it remained there was no chance conditions would be viable in a group setting. The other things can be adjusted.

Even the problem with objects could be fixed without being too immersion breaking. Something like: all conditions applied to objects will be transformed into a new condition ‘deteriorating’ that will tick for the same duration and damage as the original condition.

I fully support the removal of the condition cap, and I honestly don’t think removing the cap from all conditions it applies to would be imbalanced in any format. In SPvP you’re dead if you get 25 stacks of bleed on you and can’t cleanse it, and so few times does this actually happen in high MMR games that I don’t worry about it. In WvW, the zerg runs so many condi clears it won’t matter and for roaming you needed appropriate condi clears anyway with all the Engis and Necros out there.

I think this is a spectacular change, and is a pivotal component in bringing condition damage builds in line with power builds.

I think the biggest thing we are missing from the discussion here is that Jon Peters said that the cap being raised isn’t even the whole picture for the changes being made. So, while it doesn’t make any promises, it also doesn’t confirm that damage potential for condition and direct damage will remain the same. So, there’s hope in that fuzziness! Before we take the glass half empty route, just remember that there were many who didn’t believe Anet would ever take a stab at condition damage. So, fear not! We may be able to raise ourselves from the dead soon enough.

JonPeters.5630:

Hey Everyone,

As you may have noticed bleeding stacks go above 25 stacks when playing in the demo map. This is not a mistake, rather as we have said for a while now, we know that the current stack cap creates problems for condition players who want to work together. What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems. Keep in mind, it is not necessarily final and absolutely not the entire plan. I see many questions about how this will work and how it impacts other conditions, balance, etc. Rest assured that as soon as we have a final plan we will be revealing it and letting you all know exactly how it will work.

Jon

Imagine the potential of epidemic now…

pve only,, confirmed. so no biggie. you can pve with a noodle

Balekai.6083:

However if this change sticks and is universal, there won’t be a group cap of 5-7K condi damage per second (that’s not counting lower dps condi procs by power builds), which is what made it so inferior to power.

It is inferior because of a slow buildup and lower maximum damage in a group. You will never hit the 11-13k damage of the higher DPS power builds with condition damage in current encounters.

Balekai.6083:

In elongated or non-stationary encounters, condi damage may become superior in that once it’s applied and built up, enemies are consistently being hit with condi DPS no matter how mobile/defensive they are (unless they remove condis).

This change definitely closes the gap considerably between condi damage and power damage in PvE.

It doesn’t close the gap really at all, yet. As Jon said this isn’t the only change. They need to really increase the amount of toughness bosses have, make them more mobile, something to actually make a condition build equal damage wise. It would also help if they made conditions scale nicely in a group setting.

Papish.5806:

Is the difference in maximum dmg output bewteen condi+zerker really so far apart? With condi running full sinster i figured it wouldnt be that far off tbh…..obv not talking about burst dmg though zerk will always win that.

It is quite a bit off. It obviously depends on the build itself, but you’d need to essentially stack 25 bleeds on your own, plus burning and poison, while still doing around 6k direct damage to equal the DPS of zerker builds. It is worth noting that these changes will also end up increasing zerker damage because they almost all deal incidental conditions.

Sabre.8627:

Imagine the potential of epidemic now…

You know, weakness is wanted in high lv fotms. The condi necro is totally able to keep this up to every enemy. Now if this really finally gets fixed, he’d deal ton’s of damage, when everyone focuses the same target with bleeds and he spreads the stuff. I mean comon, spread like 50 stacks bleed with 2000 condition damage to 5 tagets → 35k dps

While this does fix the problem with bleed capping it doesn’t fix the problems with burning or poison.

Hopefully burning & poison users see some love as well.

Speaking of things they could do, what if they made conditions able to critically hit.

It would possibly add some fun use of variety in builds to the meta.

Bhawb.7408:

Balekai.6083:

However if this change sticks and is universal, there won’t be a group cap of 5-7K condi damage per second (that’s not counting lower dps condi procs by power builds), which is what made it so inferior to power.

It is inferior because of a slow buildup and lower maximum damage in a group. You will never hit the 11-13k damage of the higher DPS power builds with condition damage in current encounters.

Balekai.6083:

In elongated or non-stationary encounters, condi damage may become superior in that once it’s applied and built up, enemies are consistently being hit with condi DPS no matter how mobile/defensive they are (unless they remove condis).

This change definitely closes the gap considerably between condi damage and power damage in PvE.

It doesn’t close the gap really at all, yet. As Jon said this isn’t the only change. They need to really increase the amount of toughness bosses have, make them more mobile, something to actually make a condition build equal damage wise. It would also help if they made conditions scale nicely in a group setting.

Papish.5806:

Is the difference in maximum dmg output bewteen condi+zerker really so far apart? With condi running full sinster i figured it wouldnt be that far off tbh…..obv not talking about burst dmg though zerk will always win that.

It is quite a bit off. It obviously depends on the build itself, but you’d need to essentially stack 25 bleeds on your own, plus burning and poison, while still doing around 6k direct damage to equal the DPS of zerker builds. It is worth noting that these changes will also end up increasing zerker damage because they almost all deal incidental conditions.

I agree with most of your points as I stated before (its obvious power will be superior burst damage and damage in general when in optimal scenarios), but this does close the gap. With all the innate bleed procs, condi specced players will do a lot more damage if the cap is removed.

So if you’re capable of building up to 3-5K bleed damage per second as a condi spec build, you will now do 3K-5K damage or more, instead of 1-2K due to others capping it out (which is barely better if not worse than someone in soldier/cleric gear).

Or if you had 2 condi builds that could stack up to 25 bleeds, now they will both contribute to DPS, instead of technically only having the power of one condi toon being effective. Basically an extra 3-5K damage again per second instead of 0.

All that’s left is designing encounters that make condis useful due to their nature. Highly mobile mobs that require pursuit, mobs/bosses that force players to not melee them due to specials, or higher armor on mobs as you suggested, all create a loss of DPS for normal damage, while making condis more appealing to fulfill their DoT purpose.

I really wonder how they will handle epidemic. It could become a very powerful skill once you get more than one necro using it and propagating each other’s conditions. Blood is Power + Rest of Condi Application + Epidemic ftw.

Maybe we should stop talking about Epidemic.

This is how you’ll get XIII spite necromancers in PvE.

kybraga.7103:

This is how you’ll get XIII spite necromancers in PvE.

Yep full sinister I finally got a reason to use it if it’s successfully implemented.

Sagat.3285:

kybraga.7103:

This is how you’ll get XIII spite necromancers in PvE.

Yep full sinister I finally got a reason to use it if it’s successfully implemented.

Sinister is looking more and more appealing to me.

Edit: Before we get too carried away, remember that Resistance is definitely coming with the expansion. It might not matter how many stacks of bleeds you have if you can’t strip resistance off mobs.

Lol watch for tank necromancers in dungeons once that’s out… Heh.

Infact, on that note I shall create a build for fun! :p

-Build has been created.-
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNBmWDbkjmqb7uxxG2bTgLUz9EQfABw9G7HMBA-TRCFABspRwt9HC4BAUsyPAuCA/qLYY1fU4gAAoSQSBAx0I-e
Look at the yummy bleed duration… Heh.

Balekai.6083:

Edit: Before we get too carried away, remember that Resistance is definitely coming with the expansion. It might not matter how many stacks of bleeds you have if you can’t strip resistance off mobs.

Honestly there are so many easy ways to strip boons that unless we see large stacks of mobs that instantly re-apply multiple boons it wouldn’t be a big deal. It will obviously influence who we see in a group, since your standard condi builds don’t tend to have boon stripping (Necromancer aside), but Mesmers/Necros could get them off really easily.

Bhawb.7408:

Balekai.6083:

Edit: Before we get too carried away, remember that Resistance is definitely coming with the expansion. It might not matter how many stacks of bleeds you have if you can’t strip resistance off mobs.

Honestly there are so many easy ways to strip boons that unless we see large stacks of mobs that instantly re-apply multiple boons it wouldn’t be a big deal. It will obviously influence who we see in a group, since your standard condi builds don’t tend to have boon stripping (Necromancer aside), but Mesmers/Necros could get them off really easily.

Yep. The only mobs I could see really spamming Resistance are those Mordrem Healer types or other future mobs that have “monk” mechanics.

Bhawb.7408:

Balekai.6083:

Edit: Before we get too carried away, remember that Resistance is definitely coming with the expansion. It might not matter how many stacks of bleeds you have if you can’t strip resistance off mobs.

Honestly there are so many easy ways to strip boons that unless we see large stacks of mobs that instantly re-apply multiple boons it wouldn’t be a big deal. It will obviously influence who we see in a group, since your standard condi builds don’t tend to have boon stripping (Necromancer aside), but Mesmers/Necros could get them off really easily.

That’s true, but I heard, once resistance ticks off, you’ll go and have the conditions as if you never had any resistance… (A timer to hold back your death from conditions.)

kybraga.7103:

-Build has been created.-
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNBmWDbkjmqb7uxxG2bTgLUz9EQfABw9G7HMBA-TRCFABspRwt9HC4BAUsyPAuCA/qLYY1fU4gAAoSQSBAx0I-e
Look at the yummy bleed duration… Heh.

Untraited scepter, GO TO THE CORNER! NOW!!! o.O

Xyonon.3987:

kybraga.7103:

-Build has been created.-
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNBmWDbkjmqb7uxxG2bTgLUz9EQfABw9G7HMBA-TRCFABspRwt9HC4BAUsyPAuCA/qLYY1fU4gAAoSQSBAx0I-e
Look at the yummy bleed duration… Heh.

Untraited scepter, GO TO THE CORNER! NOW!!! o.O

100 seconds if 20% bleed duration and 33% from scepter… OVER KILL. XP

kybraga.7103:

That’s true, but I heard, once resistance ticks off, you’ll go and have the conditions as if you never had any resistance… (A timer to hold back your death from conditions.)

Basically yes. While under the effects of Resistance you don’t suffer the effects of any conditions on you, but they are still applied as normal and once it wears off they will be there.

If you got resistance, keep in mind that the conditions will run out and not be stopped from ticking. They simply deal no damage. So you can protect yourself from spike or confusion.

kybraga.7103:

Xyonon.3987:

kybraga.7103:

-Build has been created.-
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNBmWDbkjmqb7uxxG2bTgLUz9EQfABw9G7HMBA-TRCFABspRwt9HC4BAUsyPAuCA/qLYY1fU4gAAoSQSBAx0I-e
Look at the yummy bleed duration… Heh.

Untraited scepter, GO TO THE CORNER! NOW!!! o.O

100 seconds if 20% bleed duration and 33% from scepter… OVER KILL. XP

With no cap on bleeding the trait lingering curse is a strait up 33% increase in dps of your bleeds. Drop the vampire trait in blood magic. lingering curse and parasitic contagion should out weigh vampiric anyday

When there is no more cap then …

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNArYWn0ISzN2dDO2A/NmAXok6HgeBCg7N6MoDGBA-TBSAABKcIAwW5X0nAAp1HYt6PA8EA6Z/h2UCSKAImGB-e

… is this the way you should go. You can swap out the stacking sigil if you don’t think it’s worth it, I’m not a fan of them, but it’ll be fun I guess. You can also go 46400 for bigger staff fields too if you really need them, but I doubt it.

With this build you got the highest damage and will cause sick condition damage via epidemic. And most important – 100% weakness uptime.

You want to run scepter and dagger in both weapon sets and use a battle sigil. And you want to drop staff mastery and take path of midnight. Dark path and tainted shackles are good skills for condi. And tainted shackles is good for power aswell. Also if people dont stack might you want signet mastery and aristocracy runes.

Xyonon.3987:

When there is no more cap then …

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQNArYWn0ISzN2dDO2A/NmAXok6HgeBCg7N6MoDGBA-TBSAABKcIAwW5X0nAAp1HYt6PA8EA6Z/h2UCSKAImGB-e

… is this the way you should go. You can swap out the stacking sigil if you don’t think it’s worth it, I’m not a fan of them, but it’ll be fun I guess. You can also go 46400 for bigger staff fields too if you really need them, but I doubt it.

With this build you got the highest damage and will cause sick condition damage via epidemic. And most important – 100% weakness uptime.

ignore all this if you meant the build was for pvp… If you go for sinister, you could simply just go hybrid, the staff is useless, weakness is useless, if you need to have most condi damage it’s this build here http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRIQJArYlc0ontV3w7G83MxuQNVSAdAcmxb0TQG0BA-TBSAABFqFI6TggYK/A4BEEq6P9s/Ah6QaTJYAgDgxLeAxH/4jP+4jPe7u7u7u7ulCAmlVA-e
AND! The playstyle goes like this, BiP > Deathly Swarm > Sharpnel Mine > Grasping Dead > 2 Scepter Autoattacks > Enfeebling Blood > DS > Dark Path > and now keyboard roll and volla! you have definitely over 25 Bleeding Stacks Sustainable :>, so the best race for conditonmancer is Charr.. The more you know

While this is a great change I always thought the main problem with conditions wasn’t so much the damage (which is low or limited application) but how they don’t work on objects like doors, crates, turrets, and other destructibles?

So even with the change it still wont by any means be desired in any way shape or form over power.

Are there any boss fights in HoT beta where the boss has immunity to direct damage but still takes condition damage?

It would be nice to have encounters where both direct damage and damage over time are needed.