Guild Wars 2

90% of my encounters in WvW I win. Some with struggle, most with relative ease. For the longest time, Mesmer’s were a problem for me. But after enough practice they’ve officially been crossed off my list for threatening professions.
I’m full condition damage, 0 physical damage. I have a good deal of vitality/toughness so I can take quite a beating and can burst people down pretty fast especially if they’re still long enough for me to get off my full rotation.

Anyway, 3 times in one day… I’ve had people party me saying “conditions are OP.” I understand that they deal high damage but, should I roll a different spec to avoid being a “cheese build”? Or should I just keep doing what I’m doing | : ?

I just ask because I really don’t like to have the upper hand in fights.. I’m a duelist. I like to /bow and have casual fights if I’m given the opportunity to do so. I want to be on as even a footing with my opponent as possible even if “fair” isn’t exactly WvW’s purpose.

And for the record, I’ve played every profession and have had about as much success with winning on others as I have my Necro. Only I find Necromancer to fit a lot more comfortably with my playstyle and thus why it’s my favorite profession.

if you run any 30/x/x/x/x dumbfire build you are cheese.
if you also run sig of spite you are cheese with extra cheese on top.

Brando.1374:

if you run any 30/x/x/x/x dumbfire build you are cheese.
if you also run sig of spite you are cheese with extra cheese on top.

Thank god I run 30/x/x/x/x close to death power build. Screw dumbfire and screw the cheese.

jportell.2197:

Brando.1374:

if you run any 30/x/x/x/x dumbfire build you are cheese.
if you also run sig of spite you are cheese with extra cheese on top.

Thank god I run 30/x/x/x/x close to death power build. Screw dumbfire and screw the cheese.

we need more necro’s like you around here

Brando.1374:

jportell.2197:

Brando.1374:

if you run any 30/x/x/x/x dumbfire build you are cheese.
if you also run sig of spite you are cheese with extra cheese on top.

Thank god I run 30/x/x/x/x close to death power build. Screw dumbfire and screw the cheese.

we need more necro’s like you around here

It makes me sad though because everytime I win a fight in tPvP I get told necros/conditions are OP even tho I have 1 damaging condition which is a random bleed proc… el oh el. XD

meh, I get told that I am a noob all the time just because I have access to death shroud.

Eh, I think most people say condis are cheesy because they can’t be bothered to bring appropriate condi cleanse. “But I need utilities X, Y, and Z”. Well, then you eat condition damage. “But I need traits A and B, otherwise I lose out on damage.” Well, then you eat condition damage.

I don’t feel bad for these people. Before Cleansing Ire and the new Zerker Stance, I used to run my Warrior with Runes of Lyssa and Signet of Stamina both specifically to manage condis. Runes of Lyssa boons were ok, but I saved it so I could use it to clear condis. I sacrificed other utilities like Endure Pain or Bull’s Charge (depending) in order to bring Signet of Stam. I didn’t complain.

I’d say your condi build is more “easy”, less “cheesy”. However, it’s less easy if you fight someone who can deal with condis, but often the condition pressure allows a Condi Necro to keep up pressure against mobile/target breaking opponents whereas a Power Necro can have trouble in that regard. That’s the only reason I’m calling it “easy”.

At the end of the day, play what you have fun with, regardless of complainers.

@Shaogin: Two health bars, GG imba Necro survivability.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Eh, I think most people say condis are cheesy because they can’t be bothered to bring appropriate condi cleanse. “But I need utilities X, Y, and Z”. Well, then you eat condition damage. “But I need traits A and B, otherwise I lose out on damage.” Well, then you eat condition damage.

I don’t feel bad for these people. Before Cleansing Ire and the new Zerker Stance, I used to run my Warrior with Runes of Lyssa and Signet of Stamina both specifically to manage condis. Runes of Lyssa boons were ok, but I saved it so I could use it to clear condis. I sacrificed other utilities like Endure Pain or Bull’s Charge (depending) in order to bring Signet of Stam. I didn’t complain.

I’d say your condi build is more “easy”, less “cheesy”. However, it’s less easy if you fight someone who can deal with condis, but often the condition pressure allows a Condi Necro to keep up pressure against mobile/target breaking opponents whereas a Power Necro can have trouble in that regard. That’s the only reason I’m calling it “easy”.

At the end of the day, play what you have fun with, regardless of complainers.

@Shaogin: Two health bars, GG imba Necro survivability.

What cr should my friggin thief bring?
The only active condi cleanse, I got is signet of agility, which removes 1 condition.
Another one is in the shadow arts line. I don’t like the lame playstyle of hiding over and over again, till I win the fight because my opponent got bored to death. I wanna stand straight in the enemy’s face and beat him down quickly, so shadow arts is kinda ruled out.

Oh, and there is Hide in Shadows… Guess, I gotta put that 30 sec cd heal on my hotbar and die every time I get immobilized or crippled, because I got no withdraw on my bar.
Well, my thief still got an easy solution. If I got the initiative, I can just kill the condition user faster, if I am running away, I will use my shortbow 5 to create some distance or die trying(mostly the latter), but this is perfectly fine. I never built my thief to survive by shrugging off attacks anyway. It’s about keeping the distance and striking when ready.

Actually, conditions are not THAT op. What’s op is the +40% duration food.

Let’s compare it to other values.
Cond food gives +40% duration as the primary attribute. Other food got +100 of an attribute as the primary attribute.
So we could deduce here, that 40% duration equal 100 attribute points…
…Until we remember trait lines, where those 40% duration would equal 400 attribute points.
So we got a food here, which provides the equivalent to 400 attribute points as primary stat?
There is food, which provides +200 of an attribute… For 30 seconds after a kill.
This thing right here, however, is simply insane.
Speaking of other food, there is other food, increasing the duration of conditions. This time specialized in increasing the duration of only a single condition by 15%.
Fifteen. Obviously, increasing the duration of burning is way stronger than merely increasing the duration of all conditions, so the 40% on the much weaker all condition food is justified.

Once you look at these numbers, however, everything fits right into place if you replaced the “40” with a “10”.
The cond duration will have the same conversion ratio as the cond duration in the trait lines and you will have the choice between increasing the duration of a single condition by 15% or of all conditions by 10%.
If you are still not convinced, take a look at runes.
All condition runes: 10%
Single condition runes: 15%.

Since the OP stated WvW, the only reason you should lose a 1v1 is to a bursting class surprising you when you have 0 DS pool, you kitten on a PU mesmer or meet a good Diamond Skin ele. That is a 1 in 100,000 chance anyways. Although, fighting a mirror match with another necro is always funny.

Condi are not OP. The rate at which they can be applied compared to the rate they can be removed is way off (to a lesser extent the duration). That is a balance nightmare though. In small groups, condi do work. The larger the group, the less effective they become.

naphack.9346:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Eh, I think most people say condis are cheesy because they can’t be bothered to bring appropriate condi cleanse. “But I need utilities X, Y, and Z”. Well, then you eat condition damage. “But I need traits A and B, otherwise I lose out on damage.” Well, then you eat condition damage.

I don’t feel bad for these people. Before Cleansing Ire and the new Zerker Stance, I used to run my Warrior with Runes of Lyssa and Signet of Stamina both specifically to manage condis. Runes of Lyssa boons were ok, but I saved it so I could use it to clear condis. I sacrificed other utilities like Endure Pain or Bull’s Charge (depending) in order to bring Signet of Stam. I didn’t complain.

I’d say your condi build is more “easy”, less “cheesy”. However, it’s less easy if you fight someone who can deal with condis, but often the condition pressure allows a Condi Necro to keep up pressure against mobile/target breaking opponents whereas a Power Necro can have trouble in that regard. That’s the only reason I’m calling it “easy”.

At the end of the day, play what you have fun with, regardless of complainers.

@Shaogin: Two health bars, GG imba Necro survivability.

What cr should my friggin thief bring?
The only active condi cleanse, I got is signet of agility, which removes 1 condition.
Another one is in the shadow arts line. I don’t like the lame playstyle of hiding over and over again, till I win the fight because my opponent got bored to death. I wanna stand straight in the enemy’s face and beat him down quickly, so shadow arts is kinda ruled out.

Oh, and there is Hide in Shadows… Guess, I gotta put that 30 sec cd heal on my hotbar and die every time I get immobilized or crippled, because I got no withdraw on my bar.
Well, my thief still got an easy solution. If I got the initiative, I can just kill the condition user faster, if I am running away, I will use my shortbow 5 to create some distance or die trying(mostly the latter), but this is perfectly fine. I never built my thief to survive by shrugging off attacks anyway. It’s about keeping the distance and striking when ready.

Actually, conditions are not THAT op. What’s op is the +40% duration food.

Let’s compare it to other values.
Cond food gives +40% duration as the primary attribute. Other food got +100 of an attribute as the primary attribute.
So we could deduce here, that 40% duration equal 100 attribute points…
…Until we remember trait lines, where those 40% duration would equal 400 attribute points.
So we got a food here, which provides the equivalent to 400 attribute points as primary stat?
There is food, which provides +200 of an attribute… For 30 seconds after a kill.
This thing right here, however, is simply insane.
Speaking of other food, there is other food, increasing the duration of conditions. This time specialized in increasing the duration of only a single condition by 15%.
Fifteen. Obviously, increasing the duration of burning is way stronger than merely increasing the duration of all conditions, so the 40% on the much weaker all condition food is justified.

Once you look at these numbers, however, everything fits right into place if you replaced the “40” with a “10”.
The cond duration will have the same conversion ratio as the cond duration in the trait lines and you will have the choice between increasing the duration of a single condition by 15% or of all conditions by 10%.
If you are still not convinced, take a look at runes.
All condition runes: 10%
Single condition runes: 15%.

your a thief….. you hit hard and run/stealth. the thief class was never made to “stand straight in the enemy’s face and beat him down quickly” you need to stand behind him while stealth to beat him down with some suprise bu…..backstab

how can i tell the OP “dumb fire” ? my Necro have 30,30,x,x,10 are good?

jportell.2197:

Brando.1374:

jportell.2197:

Brando.1374:

if you run any 30/x/x/x/x dumbfire build you are cheese.
if you also run sig of spite you are cheese with extra cheese on top.

Thank god I run 30/x/x/x/x close to death power build. Screw dumbfire and screw the cheese.

we need more necro’s like you around here

It makes me sad though because everytime I win a fight in tPvP I get told necros/conditions are OP even tho I have 1 damaging condition which is a random bleed proc… el oh el. XD

Which goes to show how ignorant many people are a lot of people assume every necro is condi mainstat. I’ve even done it a few times but it doesn’t bother me if I guess wrong.

@OP

Run whatever you want my guildie Brando doesn’t like Dhuumfire that doesn’t stop me from running dhuumfire I don’t main necro but I’m not bad at it either just because I run dhuumfire.

I run what I like every forum has a subset that tries to distance themselves from the ones with the community bullseye in the end that wins you nothing. Being a special snowflakes is a thing so is running a cookie cutter. No right or wrong in either.

Run what you find fun respect their opinion but you don’t have to let them “muscle” you into running something else.

oZii.2864:

jportell.2197:

Brando.1374:

jportell.2197:

Brando.1374:

if you run any 30/x/x/x/x dumbfire build you are cheese.
if you also run sig of spite you are cheese with extra cheese on top.

Thank god I run 30/x/x/x/x close to death power build. Screw dumbfire and screw the cheese.

we need more necro’s like you around here

It makes me sad though because everytime I win a fight in tPvP I get told necros/conditions are OP even tho I have 1 damaging condition which is a random bleed proc… el oh el. XD

Which goes to show how ignorant many people are a lot of people assume every necro is condi mainstat. I’ve even done it a few times but it doesn’t bother me if I guess wrong.

@OP

Run whatever you want my guildie Brando doesn’t like Dhuumfire that doesn’t stop me from running dhuumfire I don’t main necro but I’m not bad at it either just because I run dhuumfire.

I run what I like every forum has a subset that tries to distance themselves from the ones with the community bullseye in the end that wins you nothing. Being a special snowflakes is a thing so is running a cookie cutter. No right or wrong in either.

Run what you find fun respect their opinion but you don’t have to let them “muscle” you into running something else.

Dont listen to Sin, he is a bad necro

jk. I just really dont like that trait since it made the class I fell in love with just so easy to play it made it all necro’s look bad.

@naphack: try using a sword. That gives you condition cleanse (initiative-based, too!). Alternatively, Shadowstep in utilities. Or trait into Shadow arts. Or don’t get hit with the conditions in the first place.

Brando.1374:

Dont listen to Sin, he is a bad necro

jk. I just really dont like that trait since it made the class I fell in love with just so easy to play it made it all necro’s look bad.

<3 Yea I know your reasons.

It really only makes you look bad if you care about what the people looking at you think.

I told Wolfineer (popular youtube engineer) that not running perplexity runes wins you no points when you know they are the best runes to run. There is no honor in roaming in WvW every class complains about the others roaming builds. If a person doesn’t like you because your running perplexity the chances are he doesn’t like you because your running conditions anyway. You not running perplexity just maybe means he likes you a little more then the perplexity person but he still doesn’t like you.

He probably only knows that your not running perplexity if you announce it to him anyway. That’s how I feel about dhuumfire if it never existed people would still complain about necros. Even if the trait was made so bad nobody would run it anymore people would still complain about necros.

Look at the balance forums people say Necro’s OP they don’t say I hate dhuumfire necros but love non-dhuumfire necros. Nobody mentions power necro’s as if they don’t exist it’s just all necros are OP. Most of the condition whines aren’t even targeted at dhuumfire specifically some people want all conditions nerfed.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

@naphack: try using a sword. That gives you condition cleanse (initiative-based, too!). Alternatively, Shadowstep in utilities. Or trait into Shadow arts. Or don’t get hit with the conditions in the first place.

This.

Also; realize that there will be particular builds that will be your kryptonite in direct engagements. These will usually for a Thief include facing a lot of condi application and enough personal defenses to survive burst.

Many Thieves seem to have similar issues until they realize they technically have better sustain via repeated disengage→reset if they choose to use them.

Dunno. I find power more op than condi in wvw.

You could say necro is cheese. But classes like mes, theif and ele can reset fights and get full health over and over with ease. And theives fully buffed dealing 10k +hits wen i hav quite a bit of toughness…. idk i dont feel bad for killing people with condis then.

Thank you for your responses, I think I’ll keep doing what I’m doing despite the hate. As I’ve said, I’ve had about the same success with fights on other professions so although I am using Dhuumfire, I can’t say it’s my crutch for winning these encounters.
I’m currently working on a power set so I’ll eventually be able to rotate depending on my mood. But conditions will always have a special place in my heart : 3.

Also, D/P Thief, PU Mes and as far as I could tell an average Guardian were the ones that told me conditions are OP, so.. For most of them I couldn’t help but saying “and you have any room to talk?”
So I totally agree with you, oZii. People will hate me either way so I suppose it doesn’t matter what build I run. Sometimes I think I get more hate for all my boon removals than anything. I’ve gotten stripping them down to a science so I’m constantly taking peoples defenses away. Especially Guards or Lyssa rune Thieves ~ Corrupt Boon = one mad and/or dead opponent.

oZii.2864:

I told Wolfineer (popular youtube engineer) that not running perplexity runes wins you no points when you know they are the best runes to run. There is no honor in roaming in WvW every class complains about the others roaming builds. If a person doesn’t like you because your running perplexity the chances are he doesn’t like you because your running conditions anyway. You not running perplexity just maybe means he likes you a little more then the perplexity person but he still doesn’t like you.

He probably only knows that your not running perplexity if you announce it to him anyway. That’s how I feel about dhuumfire if it never existed people would still complain about necros. Even if the trait was made so bad nobody would run it anymore people would still complain about necros.

Look at the balance forums people say Necro’s OP they don’t say I hate dhuumfire necros but love non-dhuumfire necros. Nobody mentions power necro’s as if they don’t exist it’s just all necros are OP. Most of the condition whines aren’t even targeted at dhuumfire specifically some people want all conditions nerfed.

To be honest the comments the op receives are what gets on my nerve about pvp. Unfortunately some people just can’t take a beating and look to fire any old excuse back in order to try and alienate certain builds. Are there certain traits and skills that are overpowered…too right there is. Dhuumfire is one which is getting adjusted but still is going to be a pain if timed right. Signet of Spite is another one that needs less variety of conditions applied but bolster the remaining ones slightly, but other classes have similar overpowered traits or skills.

My view is play the way you want to play the majority of classes each has a build that people complain about…whether it be PU Mesmer, Decap Engi, Dhuumfire Necro and most recently MM Necro has been getting flak or HamBow Warrior or maybe any warrior build j/k. Spirit Ranger or even a Shamy Ranger has been getting flak recently in pvp and the last one off the top of my head I can think of is Stealth DP Thief. That is just a few so other classes aren’t short of builds that are greater than others whether people choose or don’t choose to run these builds is upto them.

I don’t give grief to the person running these builds when I get beat as the complaints are aimed at the wrong person. If you have issue’s with certain builds it should be more aimed towards the developers to balance things out. Who am I to turn around and tell someone how to play their character? If they enjoy it and have fun then that is all that should matter, personally I do not run Dhuumfire because im not a fan of condition builds.

If I was running a condition build I would take Dhuumfire as its like asking a 3 legged horse to run a competitive horse race. Why on earth would I want to go into a fight worse off when other classes have the same OP builds but because people choose not to run them it is suddenly my fault. I applaud those that don’t run these builds but don’t complain to the person using it when you get beat because of it, complain in the profession balance section or complain to the developers who haven’t balanced things out yet. It’s not a popularity contest so if its what you enjoy playing then keep playing it, myself I prefer power builds.

Scarran.9845:

Dhuumfire is one which is getting adjusted but still is going to be a pain if timed right.

I just wanted to comment that a Grandmaster trait should be a pain if used properly. One of the main problems with Dhuumfire right now isn’t just the damage, but the fact that it’s free damage that you can get on attacks like Scepter auto. Give it more counter-play and it goes from just being high free damage for no reason to timed damage for a very specific reason.

There’s a difference there. Maybe Necros shouldn’t have Burning at all for lore reasons or “available condition” reasons or whatever. That argument aside, I think Dhuumfire should be a lot of damage.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Scarran.9845:

Dhuumfire is one which is getting adjusted but still is going to be a pain if timed right.

I just wanted to comment that a Grandmaster trait should be a pain if used properly. One of the main problems with Dhuumfire right now isn’t just the damage, but the fact that it’s free damage that you can get on attacks like Scepter auto. Give it more counter-play and it goes from just being high free damage for no reason to timed damage for a very specific reason.

I agree with you on both points, I would like to see alot more traits changed so that you can react to them in combat but be punished if you mistime it. There is too many traits that other classes also have that people can do nothing about.

I admit that I dislike Dhuumfire with a passion and feel I would rather have had more ways to apply torment than to apply fire. Fire is one of the hardest hitting conditions you have in the game so when you give it to a class that can easily apply as many conditions like Necro can and then make it on crit then it was obviously going to tilt the scales too much in our favour.

But again we arent the only ones, the only reason Dhuumfire gets singled out more than Incendiary Powder which is similar is that we can overload people more with conditions and in a short space of time than engineer can. But again IP is another one of many traits that the game has that need to be changed so that it gives you some sort of viable way to react to it.

Necromancers who are not easy prey are OP cheese.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Anyway, 3 times in one day… I’ve had people party me saying “conditions are OP.” I understand that they deal high damage but, should I roll a different spec to avoid being a “cheese build”? Or should I just keep doing what I’m doing | : ?

I just ask because I really don’t like to have the upper hand in fights.. I’m a duelist. I like to /bow and have casual fights if I’m given the opportunity to do so. I want to be on as even a footing with my opponent as possible even if “fair” isn’t exactly WvW’s purpose.

If you win a lot and want it to be more “fair”, I suggest you weaken your build until you win 50% =) The question is… do you want fair fights with PvE tourists or seasoned PvP players venturing into WvW?

Yes… conditions are strong in 1v1, especially if they try to out-tank you (a l2p issue), but WvW is so much more, conditions are not as strong in other scenarios, and winning 1v1 will not win the matchup. I wouldn’t say OP or cheesy, but situational.

I really like solo roaming in all its aspects. Builds being one, situation awareness, knowing/using terrain, assessment, adaptability etc, and I don’t run into fights I know I will loose (unless I can avoid it).

Why then should it be OK for other players to run into fights they’ll loose, and then say you have a cheesy build? What’s their responsibility? It has happened to me more than once — both with and without Dhuumfire.

Personally I don’t think in terms of OP, but maybe builds encouraging trolls, and no… I wouldn’t say condition builds in general, or Dhuumfire builds, are typical troll builds.

Edit: In addition to troll builds, I also think in terms of builds being popular to the degree it changes the outcome of matchups, and no I wouldn’t say that applies to Dhuumfire builds.

It’s pretty amusing since for some reason, because if you listen to enough people, necros aren’t allowed to kill people or something. If you do, it’s because you’re cheating.

It’s not like we have terrible ways of handling CC, trouble being focused, or no escapes or anything like that.

Although the condition bunker attrition does seem to be the rage these days and is very hard to deal with it.

I think the problem with condition damage is that it seems geared to be used against other players, which is why it does horrifically in pve but so deadly in wvw/pvp

ArchonWing.9480:

It’s pretty amusing since for some reason, because if you listen to enough people, necros aren’t allowed to kill people or something. If you do, it’s because you’re cheating.

I’ve started to grow tired of the “condition meta/op” rants. Let me first state I run both as condition and power necro, as well as other classes.

1) WvW is not, first and foremost, a 1v1 arena, and I seriously doubt 1v1 balance in WvW is high on the game designers’ priority list.

2) Conditions are strong in small fights, but that’s about it.

3) Of all the damage I receive in WvW, I don’t think half of it stems from conditions.

Now… I’ve had thieves surprising me out of nowhere, landing some devastating combinations and I’ve dueled thieves who knew how to counter necro:s. They get my respect and if we party up, it’s always on friendly terms.

I’ve also fought brash thieves with predictable movement, announcing their presence, happily walking in my marks/wells and trying to out-tank me. If I party up with them I know I’ll be called cheesy.

Who would you listen to?

I can tell similar tales about other encounters, but you get my drift. I don’t think I’ve ever been called cheesy by a seasoned roamer.

Edit: gramma

jpersson.7368:

I’ve started to grow tired of the “condition meta/op” rants. Let me first state I run both as condition and power necro, as well as other classes.

1) WvW is not, first and foremost, a 1v1 arena, and I seriously doubt 1v1 balance in WvW is high on the game designers’ priority list.

2) Conditions are strong in small fights, but that’s about it.

3) Of all the damage I receive in WvW, I don’t think half of it stems from conditions.

Now… I’ve had thieves surprising me out of nowhere, landing some devastating combinations and I’ve dueled thieves who knew how to counter necro:s. They get my respect and if we party up, it’s always on friendly terms.

I’ve also fought brash thieves with predictable movement, announcing their presence, happily walking in my marks/wells and trying to out-tank me. If I party up with them I know I’ll be called cheesy.

Who would you listen to?

I can tell similar tales about other encounters, but you get my drift. I don’t think I’ve ever been called cheesy by a seasoned roamer.

Edit: gramma

Good to know, and also very true. I suppose I’m a bit too concerned with what others think in a place where people fight to kill not for respect. So although for the most part I certainly don’t feel bad when defeating someone, I do sometimes question just how many people realize I would be effective with or without a relatively meta build.
Either way, I’ll continue to do what I’m doing as it’s what I enjoy. Conditions suck in PvE, are difficult to manage in large scale fights, and have their place in small scale fights. But as a solo roamer, I find more often than not they serve me more than well in my encounters. So I’ll just hope they don’t get nerfed any further, and look forward to having to put more effort in to condition stacking when Dhuumfire is placed as a Death Shroud ability. Because as is, I can honestly say I enjoy successfully getting off a rotation on someone that I’ve put a lot of practice in to mastering. One more step in that rotation will just make the reward feel even better ( :

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I do sometimes question just how many people realize I would be effective with or without a relatively meta build.

100% of the people who call you cheesy would never come to terms with the fact that another player that isn’t their friend can be good in this game. So many PvPers convince themselves that everyone else is bad, they’re just playing some sort of cheese that lets them win.

Accepting one’s own faults can be difficult, and people would rather blame everything else in the world before blaming themselves.

These are the people you shouldn’t ever listen to. Not ever.

jpersson.7368:

1) WvW is not, first and foremost, a 1v1 arena, and I seriously doubt 1v1 balance in WvW is high on the game designers’ priority list.

90% of the arguments come from 1v1’s

Condi meta was a thing top tPvP teams did state when teams ran 2 necros that meta passed but in the process it leaked over to WvW. People started to try and use small man roaming and tPvP together as if they are the same when they are far from. So it is still stuck that WvW is a condition meta with the caveat “Unless your Zerging” even though there are more Zergers then roamers always.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Good to know, and also very true. I suppose I’m a bit too concerned with what others think in a place where people fight to kill not for respect.

…but there is a lot of respect going on in WvW, it just not synchronized. I abide to my rules, you to yours and I’m fine with that.

Personally I don’t fight in JP:s but that’s me. I can also share some respect with enemy roamers in the knowledge that I don’t know what’s behind the next bend. That’s part of the charm and part of the reason why balanced 1v1 is “irrelevant” in WvW (and I say that while tipping my hat to oZii). Solo roaming is not chess.

jpersson.7368:

ArchonWing.9480:

It’s pretty amusing since for some reason, because if you listen to enough people, necros aren’t allowed to kill people or something. If you do, it’s because you’re cheating.

I’ve started to grow tired of the “condition meta/op” rants. Let me first state I run both as condition and power necro, as well as other classes.

1) WvW is not, first and foremost, a 1v1 arena, and I seriously doubt 1v1 balance in WvW is high on the game designers’ priority list.

2) Conditions are strong in small fights, but that’s about it.

3) Of all the damage I receive in WvW, I don’t think half of it stems from conditions.

Now… I’ve had thieves surprising me out of nowhere, landing some devastating combinations and I’ve dueled thieves who knew how to counter necro:s. They get my respect and if we party up, it’s always on friendly terms.

I’ve also fought brash thieves with predictable movement, announcing their presence, happily walking in my marks/wells and trying to out-tank me. If I party up with them I know I’ll be called cheesy.

Who would you listen to?

I can tell similar tales about other encounters, but you get my drift. I don’t think I’ve ever been called cheesy by a seasoned roamer.

Edit: gramma

I pretty much agree with most of it. 1v1 is just peanuts in the grand scheme of things, especially in stuff like wvw. It’s most likely an ego thing for many.

Then again, unlike some other classes, a necro once engaged in battle pretty much has to fight to the death. Maybe some people can’t accept that someone has accepted this mentality and won’t just run away like a little kitten once things go south. =p

If I get caught alone with a zerg-friendly build and utilities targeted at area damage, no life force, and no Dhuumfire or Terror so I can barely scratch my target before they heal up, I’m balanced and all the thieves are happy for their free balanced kill.

If I run a Terrormancer build with utilities oriented toward 1v1 fights, suddenly I’m OP.

No point in using a subpar build when you’re roaming.

People cry about dhuum fire but don’t realise engineers has the exact same trait in explosives.

… And it’s only a master trait!

ArchonWing.9480:

… And it’s only a master trait!

It actually used to be adept…. But most people viewed giving necros dhuumfire like giving engineers fear and then terror…. Just didn’t compute or make any real kind of sense.

I think the real issue is the burst rotations in condi builds. They are very strong regardless of condi cleanse. At best most classes cleanse up to 2 maybe 3 conditions every 30-40s. A necro can easily add repeated conditions that do a lot of dmg in a short time. Not just that, but death shroud buys lots of time for any cds to finish on a necro.

I think for all that dmg, base hp should be reduced. But unfortunately that would impact power necros the most. Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see any particular skill requirement in a condi necro. It’s just spam whatever is not on cd. Almost like condi engis. There’s really not much in terms of strategy other than spam. Power necros however I feel like it takes more careful play to come out on top. But that’s just my opinion. Unfortunately, when a build becomes meta… too many baddies make it look like a cheezy build. I’m sure those who are more talented with the class run it in a much more complex way – though, I have yet to see a condition necro play against any class with clever use of terrain, taking advantage of weaknesses, etc. It’s just perma spam.

i think its a more simple case

there are two ways of attack, power and condition damage…
in the same sense, there are two ways of defence:
1. defence against power, including toughness, protective buffs (protection), cc, armor and runes, etc
2. defence against conditions, including condition removals, runes reducing cond.duration (like melandu), food with -40% condition duration(it really exists, lemonsomething), etc.

you cant be pretty good in both ways. if you choose to be great vs power, then you are weak vs conditions, and the other way around.

there is an option, make it and just accept it.

most ppl that complain about conditions, its because they cant have both
conditions are not op, you just speced for defence against power…

@naphack.9346

Actually, conditions are not THAT op. What’s op is the +40% duration food.
Let’s compare it to other values.
Cond food gives +40% duration as the primary attribute.

FYI, there is anti-Cond food that gives -40% duration as the primary attribute (lemongrass or something). Compare it with that and tell us what you find

@naphack.9346
Once you look at these numbers, however, everything fits right into place if you replaced the “40” with a “10”.

What??? someone lock him away and throw the key pls

@naphack.9346
If you are still not convinced, take a look at runes.

and you take a look at lemongrass

+40% is not overpowered.

at most it will add maybe 4s to some bleeds.

Brando.1374:

+40% is not overpowered.

at most it will add maybe 4s to some bleeds.

It often amounts to an extra hard tick, or just enough additional time to take an extra burst, or just enough extra time to chain chill/cripple permanently much more easily.

There’s no reason it should exist on food, imo.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Brando.1374:

+40% is not overpowered.

at most it will add maybe 4s to some bleeds.

It often amounts to an extra hard tick, or just enough additional time to take an extra burst, or just enough extra time to chain chill/cripple permanently much more easily.

There’s no reason it should exist on food, imo.

Not at that level as a global value no.

The global +/- duration foods should be closer to 10-15% at best, with the specific condition duration +/- foods at the higher bonuses for builds that want to focus on boosting/mitigating a desired condition.

Doing that would tone down the stupid food arms wars that indirectly causes a lot of the complaints; as well as makes a broader variety of foods more worthwhile to actually make for using instead of craft grinding.

hi I’m engi/ele. Engi has crappy condi removal but I always do a damage spike rush trying to down the necro as fast as possible. Especially the death shroud.
Fastest I’ve ever destroyed a death shroud was about 3 seconds. sure ya have access to conditions but I’ve played necro and just as many other classes its hard to get y’r hands on a good build and play it well.

So no hard feelings but if y’r getting bored of your metabuild simply make a record of it so you don’t forget and start experimenting with other builds. That’s what I did on my elementalist for a very long time. Is also why I have 5 complete armor sets on my elementalist :p

ZenVenom.7214:

@naphack.9346

Actually, conditions are not THAT op. What’s op is the +40% duration food.
Let’s compare it to other values.
Cond food gives +40% duration as the primary attribute.

FYI, there is anti-Cond food that gives -40% duration as the primary attribute (lemongrass or something). Compare it with that and tell us what you find

@naphack.9346
Once you look at these numbers, however, everything fits right into place if you replaced the “40” with a “10”.

What??? someone lock him away and throw the key pls

@naphack.9346
If you are still not convinced, take a look at runes.

and you take a look at lemongrass

So you are saying, I should take a look at another broken food to justify a broken food?
You mean the food, which allows some profession nigh immunity to root/cripple/chill?

The food, which makes anyone not running +40% condi food on a condi build look like a fool?
Before I take another look at lemongrass, I suggest, YOU take a look at lemongrass and what it does to physical builds relying on immobilizes.

naphack.9346:

ZenVenom.7214:

@naphack.9346

Actually, conditions are not THAT op. What’s op is the +40% duration food.
Let’s compare it to other values.
Cond food gives +40% duration as the primary attribute.

FYI, there is anti-Cond food that gives -40% duration as the primary attribute (lemongrass or something). Compare it with that and tell us what you find

@naphack.9346
Once you look at these numbers, however, everything fits right into place if you replaced the “40” with a “10”.

What??? someone lock him away and throw the key pls

@naphack.9346
If you are still not convinced, take a look at runes.

and you take a look at lemongrass

So you are saying, I should take a look at another broken food to justify a broken food?
You mean the food, which allows some profession nigh immunity to root/cripple/chill?

The food, which makes anyone not running +40% condi food on a condi build look like a fool?
Before I take another look at lemongrass, I suggest, YOU take a look at lemongrass and what it does to physical builds relying on immobilizes.

What i am saying is that there is a total counter to the given food.

now, using common sense, if physical builds that rely on immobilize have problems against oponents with -40% cond food, then they can take the +40% cond food and the problem is solved…
the problem exists if these builds choose to take a power food, but this is up to them since all foods are available to all players.

Again, the idea ‘i want to have it all’ is not working, so its easier to start complaining until an undesired game effect is removed (or nerfed to the bottom)

By that logic +1000% food is balanced as long as we can run a -1000% food too.

Which is rather silly.

Overkillengine.6084:

By that logic +1000% food is balanced as long as we can run a -1000% food too.

Which is rather silly.

This is correct.

If you’re going to analyze a food, what you should actually do is look at how it effects the game if it’s counterpart is NOT used.

100 Power/10% crit dmg? Strong, but not overly so.
15% Chill/70 Condi dmg? Good if you have a lot of chill.
40% Condi Duration/70 Condi dmg? Game-changing.

Someone explain why you can get 40% duration to all condis with food, but if you specialize in a condition, it only gives 15% duration. I’ll wait.

the only reason to get a useless food with +15% dur in a single condition, is because its cheap, sinse there is a much better in the list.
similarly, why there is a useless lvl80 food that only gives 6% crit damage (Bowl of Fire Veggie Chili) sinse there is a food that gives 100 Power/Precision + 10% crit dmg?

btw, which food is the total counter to 100 Power/Precision + 10% crit dmg ???
no need to wait for an answer for that cause we all know THERE IS NO COUNTER. anet has not provide any option against this food, whereas there is the option against cond duration.

Also, the cond duration, either +0% or +100%, is irrelevant if you cast a condition remover. So equip with condition remover skills/traits/utilities or duration reducer runes/foods and stop complaining.
i know you roll a power build and you need different traits/runes/foods to make it work, your ingame damage output will make you happy and satisfied.
But the ingame condition damage ticks/sec is what makes these ppl (i mean with the given power builds) cry over the forums about ‘conditions are OP’…

Also, i have a proposition. Remove the given foods from game. In its place introduce a food that gives +100 cond. dmg + 10% cond duration(or damage) and conditions applied during the given food is in effect, CANNOT be removed/cleansed/transfered.
once a condition is applied, you gonna taste every single tick it has.
If you get hit by a power attack, you get the whole power damage. If you get hit by a condition attack, you get the whole condition damage. Fair? yes, its fair.

Also, i have another porposition. Again, remove the given foods from game. From now on, condition removals will remove one stack. For example, if you have 10 stacks of bleed and tou hit a skill that removed 3 conditions, it will remove 3 stacks and the remaining 7 stacks will keep ticking…

i bet anet play testers will laugh hard with this 2 proposition

ps. noone mentions and comments the anti-condition king of the game…the buggy ‘berzerker stance’, which i have in another topic.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Overkillengine.6084:

By that logic +1000% food is balanced as long as we can run a -1000% food too.

Which is rather silly.

This is correct.

If you’re going to analyze a food, what you should actually do is look at how it effects the game if it’s counterpart is NOT used.

100 Power/10% crit dmg? Strong, but not overly so.
15% Chill/70 Condi dmg? Good if you have a lot of chill.
40% Condi Duration/70 Condi dmg? Game-changing.

Someone explain why you can get 40% duration to all condis with food, but if you specialize in a condition, it only gives 15% duration. I’ll wait.

you are not guaranteed that the extra 40% duration will last its full duration. while on the other hand with 100 power/10%crit damage you get those stats and damage as soon as you apply the food and hit anything.

that is what the difference is might now seam like a huge difference but guaranteed damage is much better than possible damage in my opinion.

Brando.1374:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Overkillengine.6084:

By that logic +1000% food is balanced as long as we can run a -1000% food too.

Which is rather silly.

This is correct.

If you’re going to analyze a food, what you should actually do is look at how it effects the game if it’s counterpart is NOT used.

100 Power/10% crit dmg? Strong, but not overly so.
15% Chill/70 Condi dmg? Good if you have a lot of chill.
40% Condi Duration/70 Condi dmg? Game-changing.

Someone explain why you can get 40% duration to all condis with food, but if you specialize in a condition, it only gives 15% duration. I’ll wait.

you are not guaranteed that the extra 40% duration will last its full duration. while on the other hand with 100 power/10%crit damage you get those stats and damage as soon as you apply the food and hit anything.

that is what the difference is might now seam like a huge difference but guaranteed damage is much better than possible damage in my opinion.

You are not guaranteed to hit for the full damage (weakness/protection) or at all (blind; aegis; evades; invuln) with power attacks either. Some of those even work
versus condition bearing attacks.

So not really a relevant argument for the status quo of the duration foods. Because by that logic +/- 40% power damage food would be perfectly fine.

Overkillengine.6084:

Brando.1374:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Overkillengine.6084:

By that logic +1000% food is balanced as long as we can run a -1000% food too.

Which is rather silly.

This is correct.

If you’re going to analyze a food, what you should actually do is look at how it effects the game if it’s counterpart is NOT used.

100 Power/10% crit dmg? Strong, but not overly so.
15% Chill/70 Condi dmg? Good if you have a lot of chill.
40% Condi Duration/70 Condi dmg? Game-changing.

Someone explain why you can get 40% duration to all condis with food, but if you specialize in a condition, it only gives 15% duration. I’ll wait.

you are not guaranteed that the extra 40% duration will last its full duration. while on the other hand with 100 power/10%crit damage you get those stats and damage as soon as you apply the food and hit anything.

that is what the difference is might now seam like a huge difference but guaranteed damage is much better than possible damage in my opinion.

You are not guaranteed to hit for the full damage (weakness/protection) or at all (blind; aegis; evades; invuln) with power attacks either. Some of those even work
versus condition bearing attacks.

So not really a relevant argument for the status quo of the duration foods. Because by that logic +/- 40% power damage food would be perfectly fine.

I believe that is incorrect.
Condition duration has a 100% cap and a 25 stack limit. power is unlimited and uncapped.
also blind, aegis, evades, invuln also affect condition application.