I think ever necromancer player has their favorite line… Minus Blood magic because no necromancer player worth their salt likes blood magic. Curses is my personal favorite. I love condition builds and I’ve developed several different builds for conditions that a necromancer could run. I’ve even used it for Power builds as well as more defensive builds.
But I have an issue with the over all changes going into Curses. 3 out of 3 grandmaster traits are just sitting on top of each other and provide little to nothing in terms of play-ability with other builds. You have Lingering Curse and Terrior which both will be biting at each other’s heels the entire time trying to gut the other from the meta and be the dominant Choice. And if Lingering Curse allows its bonuses to continue to work while in death shroud I don’t see much competition between the two.
The issue with Lingering Curse and Terror being in the same spot is really just this. You have two Condition offensive Grandmasters fighting for the same spot to effectively help the exact same type of build. While Parasitic contagion sits at more defensive at least providing an alternative option outside of damage.
My suggestion would be to move one of those two traits either down one or to a different line. The only Issue Is having Lingering Curse, Terror and Dhuumfire all on the same build. Which would basically be the same as it is now. Maybe slightly better but that is yet to be seen.
A Slot needs to be freed up in the Grandmaster space for a trait that functions more with the necromancer’s precision rather then just conditions. A player shouldn’t have to feel bad about taking Cursing on their power build for a few minors and lower tier traits.
What would my suggestion be? Its a bit of an Odd one so bare with me for a moment. Move Banshee’s Wail up to grand master and give it a new effect when using Locust Swarm. The idea is that when you use that skill allies around you get a swarm of locust and gain swiftness for its duration. Although they wont gain life force from the swarm if they are necromancers. This type of trait will synergies with the precision idea of Curses because of its multiple hits and it will also give us a way to support our allies that isn’t just more healing. Combine this with a Blood Magic grandmaster I suggested and suddenly we have a very interesting supportive necromancer build that could be very desired in PvE. Tell me what you guys think.
I think ever necromancer player has their favorite line… Minus Blood magic because no necromancer player worth their salt likes blood magic.
I think that is a fallacy there if not the for the concept of blood magic. Otherwise there would not be nearly as many threads/post touching on how it could be improved.
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I think ever necromancer player has their favorite line… Minus Blood magic because no necromancer player worth their salt likes blood magic.
I think that is a fallacy there if not the for the concept of blood magic. Otherwise there would not be nearly as many threads/post touching on how it could be improved.
There wouldn’t be so many forum posts about blood magic if people actually liked it as is.
I suggest removing reaper’s precision, move terror there. and create a clone of the old target the weak with the addition of the following effect : gain 0.2 life force per condition on critical (not sure) hit. It would make curses on aggressive sustain option for power builds.
I suggest removing reaper’s precision, move terror there. and create a clone of the old target the weak with the addition of the following effect : gain 0.2 life force per condition on critical (not sure) hit. It would make curses on aggressive sustain option for power builds.
Thats what Unholy Martyr should be. A Sustain option for Power builds. Which it isn’t, but could very easily be made into with a few adjustments.
Thats what Unholy Martyr should be. A Sustain option for Power builds. Which it isn’t, but could very easily be made into with a few adjustments.
I think that unholy martyr should be a sustain option for any build, the difference I envision with curses and blood magic, is basically the difference between medition guard and bunker guards. Blood magic should support you and your allies while curses should support you and your damage.
I do think Terror and Lingering Curse actually have a meaningful decision between them. One pushes for spike damage via fear bursts, the other is all about stacking up long condition durations and overloading over a long period of time. That said, there absolutely needs to be a trait in the GM slot to work with power builds, and while Banshee’s Wail is fine moving it up to GM just presents us with bad power slot on Master (Reaper’s Precision should go).
I don’t think you should be able to have Lingering Curse, Terror, and Dhuumfire in one build though (at least not as they exist now). The new Lingering Curse would also boost Terror very significantly by allowing all of your non-Reaper’s Mark fears (its even possible to boost that one) to have double duration. That means a 4s Reaper’s Protection, 3s Doom (assuming it applies in DS), 2s Nightmare Proc, 2s Spectral Wall, and it allows you to drop Master of Terror in favor of the the other two traits, both of which will also boost your fears (more Dooms or more SWalls). If we want to move Terror, it will have to come with a (I hate to say it) nerf to the damage it deals.
On a side note, Corruption CD reduction trait being pushed into a fall trait sucks.
I actually think lingering curses is a PVE designed trait where enemies will frequently be immune to fear, with lingering you can opt for longer durations for stacking conditions that also hit harder. Since they’re trying to make condies work for pve, I think that’s the central idea of the trait. Terror being for pvp/wvw. That said, the 3rd one seems pretty useless unless you’re having a horrible time surviving in pve and need a crutch or something…
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
They removed stat bonuses from traitlines… but if you can get % condi duration from armor… imagine getting 30% condi duration from armor, you grab +40% condi duration food, Nightmare Runes…. all of the sudden you’re at 85% condi duration and 105% bleed duration… which is basically like having Lingering Curses. This would mean you would naturally choose Terror. If you wanted you could grab Sigil of Malice too, which would bring your condi duration to 95%…. If you are in sPvP… this would go down by 40% because the lack of food.. and I think this is where the biggest choice will have to be made… but we’ll see.
This is only if your armor can give you % condi duration. I hope it does, and I think it should. If it doesn’t, it might be a different story.
Necro, Ele, Mesmer, Guardian and Warrior, DR[OHai] YouTube Channel
I’m still trying to decide if Curses could just become a “Condition damage via criticals” line, rather than “Condis and Crits”* as it was before, and isn’t quite now. Weakening Shroud is being pushed more towards conditions & lower direct DPS contribution. If you were to do something to Banshee’s Wail, the entire trait line would be lacking good direct-damage crit majors. (Which is a shame, considering Furious Demise & Target the Weak)
Since you no longer get 300 precision just for going into the line, does that make it okay if it offers basically nothing for a power-focused character?
*Sung to the tune of Kibbles and Bits
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
Theres no other line to go in for power necros anyway. Its literally Spite, Soul reaping and then meh, meh and meh. So fix up the grandmasters in curses and death magic and then we can have some nice variation.
I don’t think you should be able to have Lingering Curse, Terror, and Dhuumfire in one build though (at least not as they exist now). The new Lingering Curse would also boost Terror very significantly by allowing all of your non-Reaper’s Mark fears (its even possible to boost that one) to have double duration. That means a 4s Reaper’s Protection, 3s Doom (assuming it applies in DS), 2s Nightmare Proc, 2s Spectral Wall, and it allows you to drop Master of Terror in favor of the the other two traits, both of which will also boost your fears (more Dooms or more SWalls). If we want to move Terror, it will have to come with a (I hate to say it) nerf to the damage it deals.
On a side note, Corruption CD reduction trait being pushed into a fall trait sucks.
I wish I could just say that the new toxic landing is “Corruption CDR, with a fall trait”, but that 6s of self-weakness is tough to ignore.
Anyways, I agree with Bhawb that terror & lingering curse should remain exclusive choices, at least with the power level that lingering curses is currently representing. So pushing Parasitic Contagion somewhere else seems necessary. It’d probably also mean nerfing it slightly, but it could replace Reaper’s Precision completely as a defensive Master-tier curses trait.
At that point, we just need a GM trait that causes/works on crits and is pretty general. Since we’re concerned about Necromancers scaling up in groups, maybe something like “When you crit, apply 25% of that damage to foes around the target”?
Or something that grants additional ferocity, since that’s now completely missing from Necro traits. “Criticals against targets below X health have +200 ferocity”? But I hear there’s some concerns about over-saturation of health threshold traits.
Or as a more foolish suggestion, a buffed & combined version of Reaper’s Precision and Vampiric Precision, possibly with a small ICD to normalize it for non fast-hitting builds. (Siphon & gain LF on crit)
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
Move Bitter Chill to curses grandmaster and add +10% damage to chilled foes. Power grandmaster problem solved. Synergises with chilling darkness in the adept slot aswell.
Move Bitter Chill to curses grandmaster and add +10% damage to chilled foes. Power grandmaster problem solved. Synergises with chilling darkness in the adept slot aswell.
But marjory’s greatsword gives chill on auto, so moving it may be a nerf to the specialisation.
I do think Terror and Lingering Curse actually have a meaningful decision between them. One pushes for spike damage via fear bursts, the other is all about stacking up long condition durations and overloading over a long period of time. That said, there absolutely needs to be a trait in the GM slot to work with power builds, and while Banshee’s Wail is fine moving it up to GM just presents us with bad power slot on Master (Reaper’s Precision should go).
I don’t think you should be able to have Lingering Curse, Terror, and Dhuumfire in one build though (at least not as they exist now). The new Lingering Curse would also boost Terror very significantly by allowing all of your non-Reaper’s Mark fears (its even possible to boost that one) to have double duration. That means a 4s Reaper’s Protection, 3s Doom (assuming it applies in DS), 2s Nightmare Proc, 2s Spectral Wall, and it allows you to drop Master of Terror in favor of the the other two traits, both of which will also boost your fears (more Dooms or more SWalls). If we want to move Terror, it will have to come with a (I hate to say it) nerf to the damage it deals.
On a side note, Corruption CD reduction trait being pushed into a fall trait sucks.
I’m going to disagree with you here. You compare terror damage to what you gain from Lingering curse you get quite a bit. If it works in Death shroud dhuumfire will be dealing double the damage compared to terror. Added on top of this the stacks of poison as well. Coupled with Enfeeble your foe will have 25 stacks of bleeding with at least a few stacks of poison and burning that just wont go away within a few seconds of the fight. With Terror, it doesn’t deal the comparative damage in the short term or long term that LC will. At least that’s my prediction. Now if it doesn’t effect Death Shroud then that changes everything. Then I could see an argument for its burst in comparison.
How? You can still take curses and spite + the new specialisation.
Tell me, what master trait should I use in curses on power greatsword build? Even then Spite+soulreaping+new specialisation is more likely to be better.
That’s a fair point, its possible that Terror isn’t strong enough to compare to Lingering Curse. If that is the case then I think its worth buffing Terror and moving Parasitic Contagion (which still seems like it should be a blood magic GM, move Deathly Invigoration which has no real business being GM) to make room for a power trait. I just don’t think allowing Terror and Lingering Curse, as they currently exist, to be in the same build is a good idea.
Maybe Parasitic Contagion to BM GM, Deathly Invigoration to Master, Transfusion to Adept, Bloodthirst combines with Vampiric Precision (which isn’t strong enough to be Master, and any build wanting to specialize siphoning should have crit chance), buff Terror if appropriate to make it compete with Lingering Curse (maybe revert that old 17% nerf first?), insert power trait to Curses GM?
Bhawb, why does terror justify a grandmaster trait as it is? I mean MAXIMUM, you can get what 1250 × 3 damage if you happen to pull of 3 ticks. How does that justify moving to the grandmaster tier to compete with Lingering? In addition, I think terror has been part of every condi build I have ever played, now if I want to have decent duration, I have to drop it? Its too much in my opinion, and it is a net nerf overall.
How? You can still take curses and spite + the new specialisation.
Tell me, what master trait should I use in curses on power greatsword build? Even then Spite+soulreaping+new specialisation is more likely to be better.
Banshees wail maybe. Or whatever replaces reapers precision. I do admit if you arent using a warhorn (quite likely with the elite spec) you are struggling for choice in the curses master tier.
But I would still rather have Bitter Chill in curses so there is atleast something worth while in the line in the grandmaster slot. And with this we can get Spiteful Talisman + Bitter Chill at the same time.
The Soul Reaping line isnt perfect for DS flash builds so i doubt we will be using it for the elite spec. I would expect to use elite spec, spite and curses. But we need curses to be improved for power builds first.
Another idea is to move Banshees Wail to adept in spite. That way you choose Spiteful Talisman or Banshees Wail. Then move Bitter Chill to curses Master. But then you cant have warhorn and focus cooldown reduction at the same time. Which is not going to be good for regular necros.
Banshees wail maybe. Or whatever replaces reapers precision. I do admit if you arent using a warhorn (quite likely with the elite spec) you are struggling for choice in the curses master tier.
But I would still rather have Bitter Chill in curses so there is atleast something worth while in the line in the grandmaster slot. And with this we can get Spiteful Talisman + Bitter Chill at the same time.
The Soul Reaping line isnt perfect for DS flash builds so i doubt we will be using it for the elite spec. I would expect to use elite spec, spite and curses. But we need curses to be improved for power builds first.
Another idea is to move Banshees Wail to adept in spite. That way you choose Spiteful Talisman or Banshees Wail. Then move Bitter Chill to curses Master. But then you cant have warhorn and focus cooldown reduction at the same time. Which is not going to be good for regular necros.
The thing is that I choose soul reaping since chillblains, spectral grasp and/or dark path are more likely to be useful in a bitter chill build then chilling darkness.
I do agree on the sentiment on improving curses for power builds, which I would do by removing removing reapers precision and moving a grandmaster trait to master tier. The lost grandmaster would be replaced by a trait that functions like the old target the weak but by adding life force (0.1~0.2) on (critical) hit per condition. This would make curses an agressive sustain line for power builds.
Bhawb, why does terror justify a grandmaster trait as it is? I mean MAXIMUM, you can get what 1250 × 3 damage if you happen to pull of 3 ticks. How does that justify moving to the grandmaster tier to compete with Lingering? In addition, I think terror has been part of every condi build I have ever played, now if I want to have decent duration, I have to drop it? Its too much in my opinion, and it is a net nerf overall.
Terror with Lingering Curses will have its damage output flat doubled, in addition to all fears having insane CC now. Doom 3s, Reaper’s Protection 4s (AoE), SWall 2s, Nightmare runes 2s, plus fears from corruptions and w/e else I’m missing. Basically, if you fear anyone who doesn’t have a stun break, they are dead because even if they don’t die to the 8k fear damage, the 8s of fear gives you so much time to free cast conditions onto them that by the time they get out they have to pop all of their cleansing, and lose the fight. It is way too much, and so Terror and Lingering Curse cannot exist in the same build.
Now, if Terror as is isn’t enough to warrant GM that is a separate issue, and if it is the case it should be buffed.
I was under the impression that Lingering curses only applied to conditions applied with the scepter, as in, I was thinking there was no fear on the scepter. Terror/Fear as it is now, is not affected by Lingering Curse
I was under the impression that Lingering curses only applied to conditions applied with the scepter, as in, I was thinking there was no fear on the scepter. Terror/Fear as it is now, is not affected by Lingering Curse
It applies to all outgoing conditions while scepter is equipped. Effectively, as long as your scepter is the weapon you are currently holding, you have maxed out condition duration on everything.
That’s a fair point, its possible that Terror isn’t strong enough to compare to Lingering Curse. If that is the case then I think its worth buffing Terror and moving Parasitic Contagion (which still seems like it should be a blood magic GM, move Deathly Invigoration which has no real business being GM) to make room for a power trait. I just don’t think allowing Terror and Lingering Curse, as they currently exist, to be in the same build is a good idea.
Maybe Parasitic Contagion to BM GM, Deathly Invigoration to Master, Transfusion to Adept, Bloodthirst combines with Vampiric Precision (which isn’t strong enough to be Master, and any build wanting to specialize siphoning should have crit chance), buff Terror if appropriate to make it compete with Lingering Curse (maybe revert that old 17% nerf first?), insert power trait to Curses GM?
Not a bad move at all. Having a healing option for Condi that doesn’t compete with our primary damage sources could be helpful, especially seeing as it would give me a reason as a Condimancer to go into blood over death. Right now, Death is looking good for me. And this might create two distinct Condi builds. Terror with Curse, Death and Soul Reaping and Lingering Curse with Curse, Blood and Soul Reaping.
As for Grandmaster? I still really like my “Everyone Gets Locus swarm” idea.
Bhawb, why does terror justify a grandmaster trait as it is? I mean MAXIMUM, you can get what 1250 × 3 damage if you happen to pull of 3 ticks. How does that justify moving to the grandmaster tier to compete with Lingering? In addition, I think terror has been part of every condi build I have ever played, now if I want to have decent duration, I have to drop it? Its too much in my opinion, and it is a net nerf overall.
Terror with Lingering Curses will have its damage output flat doubled, in addition to all fears having insane CC now. Doom 3s, Reaper’s Protection 4s (AoE), SWall 2s, Nightmare runes 2s, plus fears from corruptions and w/e else I’m missing. Basically, if you fear anyone who doesn’t have a stun break, they are dead because even if they don’t die to the 8k fear damage, the 8s of fear gives you so much time to free cast conditions onto them that by the time they get out they have to pop all of their cleansing, and lose the fight. It is way too much, and so Terror and Lingering Curse cannot exist in the same build.
Now, if Terror as is isn’t enough to warrant GM that is a separate issue, and if it is the case it should be buffed.
I would suggest separating the CC and the damage component of fear. Have terror be the CC and have fear be the damage. CC duration is not affected by condition duration so it becomes a non issue, and the damage component can still be cleansed away.
It is time to think outside the box a little. They are reworking engineer from the ground up, they can hopefully swing a few more changes for necro then moving 2-3 traits and adjusting some numbers.
Honestly lingering curses is not healthy for the class.
How many times has anet balanced something based on the scenario of extreme min/maxing (max condi duration/boon duration etc)?
With an easily accessible trait like this that DOUBLES duration on every condition, every condition needs to be balanced with this trait in mind.
So even if this is a great trait or not, it will ruin diversity and hurt the class overall.
In regards to a non condition build specific GM trait, bringing back withering precision with a lower duration but no/low ICD would be great. I miss the days of stacking weakness with my power build.
Honestly lingering curses is not healthy for the class.
How many times has anet balanced something based on the scenario of extreme min/maxing (max condi duration/boon duration etc)?
With an easily accessible trait like this that DOUBLES duration on every condition, every condition needs to be balanced with this trait in mind.
So even if this is a great trait or not, it will ruin diversity and hurt the class overall.
In regards to a non condition build specific GM trait, bringing back withering precision with a lower duration but no/low ICD would be great. I miss the days of stacking weakness with my power build.
Necros can already get 100% condi duration…. nothing new to see here.
Necro, Ele, Mesmer, Guardian and Warrior, DR[OHai] YouTube Channel
You’re right, but in sPvP now you get your condi duration from Spite, runes and sigils (and some traits).
20 in spite —> 20% condi duration
Krait Runes --> 45% bleed duration
That’s 65% bleed duration, on top of having damage from Terror.
If you took the new Lingering Curses, you’d lose the damage from Terror.
Whether it hurts the class or not, I don’t know, but you’re right that they probably looked at all the existing conditions you can place and took 100% condi duration into consideration. I think that’s partially why Weakening Shroud was nerfed. It’s a tricky thing to think about because you gotta remember that it only applies to when you have scepter. If you’re forced to move to your second weapon set, you lose your condi duration. If you moved to staff, your bleeds, chills, poisons, and fear (which would do no damage what so ever) would be shorter. Your DS skills would also have low durations. So choosing between Lingering Curses and Terror is a good option to have imo. Both require you to give something up to get something else in return. Condi Necros deal good damage now even without using Lingering Curses, and we have yet to find out how they will handle % boon duration and % condi duration that professions lost from traits.
Necro, Ele, Mesmer, Guardian and Warrior, DR[OHai] YouTube Channel
I actually think lingering curses is a PVE designed trait where enemies will frequently be immune to fear, with lingering you can opt for longer durations for stacking conditions that also hit harder. Since they’re trying to make condies work for pve, I think that’s the central idea of the trait. Terror being for pvp/wvw. That said, the 3rd one seems pretty useless unless you’re having a horrible time surviving in pve and need a crutch or something…
You couldn’t be more wrong. Enemies aren’t immune to fear in PvE and won’t. Ennemies are just immune to the CC part of the fear. Which simply mean that you can apply the condition fear with it’s damage part but the ennemy won’t run.
The easy way here should be to tie the extra condition duration of lingering curse to the scepter skills, merge this trait with path of corruption. Then move Terror to Master and add a meaningfull option for powermancers.
Edit : As a meaningfull option how about : each time the necromancer apply bleed to a target he also grant might to it’s ally. With 5 second might duration and a 1 second ICD it coold be ok.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
Some enemies are immune to fear. Just like some are immune to cripple. Fear and cripple do not apply at all to Lupi for example (Probably because he has 100% CC reduction and 100% cripple reduction). And some have completely broken all round condition duration reduction (Alphard).
I currently run a 4/4/0/0/6 power build with D+Wh/Staff on my Necro. The previewed changes would basically mean a rather straight forward buff to my build. But as others mentioned, I don’t really know which GM to pick in Curses. No power or crit trait to be found.
Lingering Curse? I don’t use a scepter.
Terror? I’m power.
Parasitic Contagion? Probably the best choice but I don’t deal much condition damage.
I thought of 2 alternatives for Parasitic Contagion which could work for both, power and condi. Since gaining health would be too similar to Vampiric traits, why not go for Endurance? Both ideas benefit condition and power builds equally – regardless of weapon choice – so there shouldn’t be any balancing issues.
Version 1
Gain x Endurance when landing a critical hit on a foe affected by Bleeding or Poison.
Version 2
Gain x Endurance when proccing Barbed Precision.
Since many people mentioned that Terror isn’t able to compete with Lingering Curse, why not add another component to it. While I think combining it with Master of Terror would be too much, why not go for something like:
Terror
Fear deals damage, yadda yadda.
Gain x% Lifeforce whenever you fear a foe.
This would provide condi builds with another source of LF regeneration.
On the topic of Fear immunity: I’m pretty sure Terror doesn’t proc on any of the Silverwastes bosses. That’s the most recent content for open world PvE, and it straight up negates Terror for every boss fight.
Mixing insults with your post is like pooping in a salad.
It’s pretty obvious, and nobody’s impressed.
Those bosses are also immune to cripple and chill. I seriously hate inconsistancies like these. Especially when they hurt specific classes more than others. Mai Trin is another prime example. An attack which cannot be evaded is inconsistant and is problematic for a class with no blocks or invulns. And then theres the randomly changed projectile attacks which became unblockable so reflects, blocks and projectile blocks no longer work to defend against them (Malrona). Also the very idea of projectile defence not working on some projectile attacks is inconsistant. Even if you label the attack as unblockable its poor design in my opinion.
Lily, regarding your opening post, I think you are correct that stacking two condition damage GMs together is not what I would prefer.
Each of the three traits available at each level should represent damage, sustain, or group utility.
Terror could be made into a group utility with a different or added effect. Terror is actually kind of weak for a GM. Although the damage is fair, Fears do not proc that often. Compare it’s damage and utility to the Adept Enfeebling Blood.
