Guild Wars 2

It seems obvious to me this should be implemented..

Btw: Im still wondering how people are able to stun trough DS (and plague form)
I am a cloud , how can you chain me?

Stability got stripped <- Real answer

“Magic” <- Realer answer

Actually I would love dark path to be a stunbreak. Makes a lot sense for it to stunbreak aswell.

First, I’ll state I’m in support of a stun break while in Deathshroud.

Now to play Devil’s Advocate with counter-arguments from an ArenaNet/balance standpoint. Not to dismiss the idea but – rather – to strengthen it against potential challenges.

Dark Path (DS #2) has a 3/4 second cast time. As it’s a gap closer that applies chill on hit, this relatively long cast time was probably added to telegraph the skill as well as allow counter-play with interrupts. Plus necros just seem to have longish skill casts in general; which seems to be part of the design philosophy behind the profession.

For a stun break to be effective, it has to be instant cast. As much as I would LOVE to have an instant cast Dark Path, removing the long cast time removes the possibility of countering it. I don’t realistically see ArenaNet allowing Dark Path to:

1) Teleport us to a target.

2) Chill said target on arrival.

3) Bleed said target on arrival.

4) Be unblockable.

5) Stun break.

6) And do all of the above instantly.

7) With a 15 second recharge.

What, then, would have to be sacrificed to make Dark Path “balanced” (as ArenaNet would define it)? Even though I personally believe Dark Path would remain balanced even if it were changed to an instant cast stun breaker because the claw that flies out is slow-ish and can be dodged or outrun, I doubt ArenaNet would agree.

The more likely scenario – taking the path of least resistance – would be to add stun break to Doom (DS #3). It’s already instant cast, has a slightly longer recharge of 20 seconds, and no additional effects that would make it seem OP if a stun break were added on top of it; simply fear a target and stun break at the same time. This adds a cost : benefit balance to the skill; is the necro going to use it to fear an opponent or hold it in reserve as a stun break?

The other big issue with this is, by adding a stun break to Death Shroud, it means necros become the only profession with access to a stun break via their profession mechanic that has no requirement of taking up a utility slot nor using a trait to achieve this; all on a 15 second cool down (albeit with the prerequisite that the necro have sufficient Life Force to enter DS to begin with).

Given the necro’s low mobility, lack of escape options, and tendency to be train focused, I really don’t believe adding a stun break to DS (on either skill #2 or skill #3) would be OP; but I seriously doubt ArenaNet or the rest of the player base would see it that way.

Isn’t the telegraph for dark path the slow moving projectile? I don’t imagine many people can see the necromancers arms moving with the black fog surrounding them, but they sure can see the grasping hand coming for them. Even with instant cast it would still take time to travel to the target

Zikory.6871:

Stability got stripped <- Real answer

“Magic” <- Realer answer

true ^^

@Kraag makes sense.

actually everyone makes sense ^^

DS#2 is already way strong, so adding a stun break is not really a reasonable request.

There are tons of things that need changing on Necro, one of which is giving them stunbreakers that don’t suck so bad, but adding one to shroud isn’t a good way to go IMO. You have the option to trait Foot in the Grave to have stability in shroud, and you can cast Doom while stunned. If you just had a utility skill that was a reasonable stunbreaker then you wouldn’t be worried about shroud.

As far as Healing on DS4 is concerned, just make it so Vampiric procs can heal while in shroud and all of a sudden it might be worth it to go into blood for something.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

DS#2 is already way strong, so adding a stun break is not really a reasonable request.

why not? look at kraags post, lots of reasons in there

There are tons of things that need changing on Necro, one of which is giving them stunbreakers that don’t suck so bad, but adding one to shroud isn’t a good way to go IMO.

again: why?

As far as Healing on DS4 is concerned, just make it so Vampiric procs can heal while in shroud and all of a sudden it might be worth it to go into blood for something.

true, that would already help a lot. with vampiric alone, DS4 could already give a pretty good heal.

I think they could add a trait that makes DS a stun break on entry with a decent ICD to balance. I’d much prefer it over adding it onto a skill, especially when the skill in question has a 15s CD, which is way too short for an actual stun breaker.

Kraag made a lot of great points. DS as a profession mechanic shouldn’t lock you out of stun breaks, but he’s right, it’s like a freebie just being a necro. Of course, no other profession mechanic (maybe Ranger) is so dependent on your playing to be able to use (Ranger pets can die). And 1v1 you probably aren’t generating the kind of LF necessary to be able to use it more than once anyway.

Thinking about DS#3 as a stun break seems a bit too strong though. Break stun + fear = potential tide-turner.

Bhawb.7408:

I think they could add a trait that makes DS a stun break on entry with a decent ICD to balance. I’d much prefer it over adding it onto a skill, especially when the skill in question has a 15s CD, which is way too short for an actual stun breaker.

But that means you’d have to be out of DS in the first place for it to act as a stun break, where we have access to our utility bar anyway. Better to make it a stun break on leaving DS with an ICD, but that still puts us right back to not having a stun break whilst in DS.

You can generate plenty of LF 1v1, you just can’t do it if you refuse (like many) to not give anything up for it.

You don’t want to leave DS when you’re stunned, stuns are going to be used before damage. Getting a stun break on entry gives you not just the break (which you want) but puts you into your main defense, which is what most people would want to be in to anticipate the incoming burst.

Bhawb.7408:

I think they could add a trait that makes DS a stun break on entry with a decent ICD to balance. I’d much prefer it over adding it onto a skill, especially when the skill in question has a 15s CD, which is way too short for an actual stun breaker.

Also makes sense..
But that would bring up the CDUI in DS…

It also means you aren’t stun breaking from DS, you’re stun breaking from normal mode (and into DS), meaning where you have access to your 7-9 skills. The idea, I thought, was to stun break from within DS and still be in it.

Seras.5702:

It also means you aren’t stun breaking from DS, you’re stun breaking from normal mode (and into DS), meaning where you have access to your 7-9 skills. The idea, I thought, was to stun break from within DS and still be in it.

Preferably yes..

Kraag himself listed why. Its a 0 give up, 15s CD stun break, are you kidding? You literally give nothing up, its base to every Necro, and is on a tiny CD. That’s why I suggested the trait. It puts you into DS, which is where you want to be anyway (if you would just leave DS you can get one off your normal bar), and has the ability to be put on an ICD to make it both worthwhile yet not too strong. Getting a stun break while in DS, especially without it being a trait, makes DS too strong of a defensive tool all around.

Honestly I could care less if I get stunned and I’m already in DS. I have doom to get them off me if I really need it, and DS is the ideal time for me to be stunned.

Well of power is a stunbreak with a cast time. They added stability during the cast time to work with this. But yeah it would be pretty op to have dark path as a stunbreak. I just want a decent stunbreak preferebly with DS. Bhawbs idea of a trait to make DS a stunbreak with an ICD is something ive seen posted before and its an idea I would love to see implemented.

DS#2 stunbreak? Bad idea.
We are already too strong 1v1, but weak to focus fire/zergs.
*execption: stun-warriors will beat u even with that another stunbreak

30 point – Foot in grave – added stunbreak? I have no idea why it isnt already
DS-switching builds are super hard-luck/intuition-based to play , but a 7-10s
non utility stunbreak ===> would make us uncatchable like sword thieves, so an ICD would be needed.

OR NEW IDEA ?

Trait 30-Foot in grave :

It also makes DS#2 our long lost teleport , BUT cast time remains , and increased CD to 20s ………………..edit remove unblockable

Like well of power, u would need DS ready + CAST TIME to get to safety.

Were already strong 1v1 , a single stunbreak wont help against even stun-warrior, let alone focus fire / zergs . But a 900range port can save u once.

Another take on this is to approach it from the design philosophy of the necromancer being the un-cola; the anti-XYZ profession that achieves similar results as other classes, but using inverse mechanics. For example, we’re a low mobility profession. We achieve balance relative to other, higher-mobility professions not through increased speed but by crippling, chilling, and immobilizing them so they are as slow or slower than we are. If you move 20 meters/second and I move 10 meters/second, you’re faster than me. If I slow you down to 5 meters/second, now I’m faster than you; but I didn’t actually speed up.

Likewise, what is the core issue when we’re talking about stuns? The necromancer being locked out of combat while the enemy attacks us at will. The conventional method for dealing with this is to simply use a stun break (which we don’t currently have access to while in Death Shroud).

If the statements in the first paragraph are an accurate description of how a necromancer is expected to function in GW2, then simply adding a stun break to Death Shroud isn’t very necromancer-y. Is the issue that we want to break out of stun or is the issue that we don’t want an opponent capitalizing on the stun? I’d argue it’s the latter. A stun in itself is nothing; it’s taking damage while stunned and not being able to do anything about it that is the real issue.

The way I see this working is to turn Doom into an AoE fear similar to a warrior’s “Fear Me!”. Unlike the shout, though, the current fear duration from Doom would remain unchanged; no applying a 3 second fear to the nearest foes, for example. This accomplishes the goal of preventing a group of opponents from focusing down a stunned necro; at least on the first stun, anyway. The necro doesn’t break the stun, but the enemy doesn’t get to capitalize on it and damage the necro; which is what we’re really trying to achieve in the first place.

To address potential concerns this would be OP, I can see where those arguments are coming from. Chiefly, it would be powerful in the hands of a terromancer with high condition damage. Then again, haven’t conditionmancers been begging for quite some time now to make Death Shroud more viable for them? This suggested change would appear to meet their needs. Furthermore, though it would deal respectable AoE damage in conjunction with the Terror trait, I don’t think it crosses the line into being OP. The necro still needs to build up sufficient Life Force to use it; something conditionmancers have not – historically – been capable of doing as quickly as other flavors of necromancer.

Though Doom would now be doing AoE fear (and potential extra damage from Terror), it’s at the expense of losing the rest of one’s skill bar while in Death Shroud. What’s more, if Doom is used to counter a stun, then – since it’s not a true stun breaker – that one AoE fear is all the necro will be doing until the stun wears off; by which point the fear he/she inflicted has most likely worn off of their opponents, as well. Even with Terror, Master of Terror, and condition-duration-extending consumables, this single application of fear is hardly going to qualify as an IWIN nuke button. Instead, it forces a reset of the fight rather than a shutdown and focus-to-defeat of the necromancer; which is another long-standing issue this change would help resolve.

Even after taking the above into consideration it’s still felt this would be OP, then balance it with one or more of the following:

1) Revert Doom’s fear duration to 1 second regardless of range.

2) Reduce Doom’s range from 1,200 to 900.

3) Doom’s fear does not benefit from the Terror trait.

Personally, I don’t think any of those limiters would be necessary as I don’t see this addition being OP in the first place. If anything, it would help bring an end to the GW2 national sport of Necro Piñata; which is where the real imbalance lies. But I offer them in the interest of “balance”.

That is such an OP idea I don’t even. Just look at the damage numbers (you can easily get Doom’s fear to tick 3 times with 30/20/0/0/20) and compare it to similarly damaging abilities. You’ll notice that in addition to massive AoE damage, it fears for its duration, is unavoidable except by sheer luck, has a 20s CD, and requires no setup nor after cast, meaning you can simply drop out and go on doing stuff.

If people want the “balanced” version of that, it already exists. It’s called Reaper’s Protection.

Bhawb.7408:

the skill in question has a 15s CD, which is way too short for an actual stun breaker.

why do you say things like this? It feels like all you do here is run around crying OP at almost every necro suggestion that comes up.

you have some ridiculous double standard for the necro.

other classes have similar/shorter cooldown stunbreaks not tied to utilities and don’t need to have a second resource bar to activate it.

No, there is not a single skill in the game that you get immediate access to just by rolling a class that is a stun breaker (I don’t play thief much, so maybe steal?). There are abilities that are “unofficial” stun breakers that work off weapon skills, but those still require you to take that weapon, it is still some kind of “give”.

Official stun breakers are almost all tied to Utility skills, and not on a 15s CD with a number of extra effects. The lowest is tied for 25s, one warrior skill that cures a whopping one condition from yourself and allies, and breaks stun, and the Mesmer mantra that breaks stun and gives you stability twice. Not much of an effect, which is ofc to offset the strength of the low CD stun break. Again, still nearly double the CD of our skill.

Now, I do realize that there are a few “unofficial” stun breaks, mainly thieves and mesmers. If you’d like to make a case that there is any similarity between the defensive situations of us and them… lol. They rely completely upon evasion to not drop like rocks. If you were to take away the evasions/invulns/stealth they get, and try to get them to face tank like we are built to, they’d drop in half a burst from most classes. Just a full 5s terror (pressing two buttons for us) drops thieves for half their HP.

Its all about give/take. This is asking us to get a 100% free stun break for every necromancer build regardless of anything.

Bhawb.7408:

No, there is not a single skill in the game that you get immediate access to just by rolling a class that is a stun breaker (I don’t play thief much, so maybe steal?). There are abilities that are “unofficial” stun breakers that work off weapon skills, but those still require you to take that weapon, it is still some kind of “give”.

For the benefit of the thread: Steal is an instant skill, so it can be used while stunned but it will not dispel the effect. A thief will teleport to their target, and still be dazed / stunned / knocked down. I believe all weapon skills that ‘break stun’ (Phase Retreat, for example) behave like this.

Dredlord.8076:

other classes have similar/shorter cooldown stunbreaks not tied to utilities and don’t need to have a second resource bar to activate it.

Give me an example.