Guild Wars 2

One of my main problems with the Necro class is still Death Shroud. The fix that allows us to see our boons/conditions while in DS is nicer than it was, but there are still many issues with it for it being a main class mechanic, especially when compared to other classes.

Note that all of this is just the base mechanic, not including traits etc which all classes have to add a bit to how they play.

Best class mechanics
Warrior: Attacks/some utilities build adrenaline, which can then be used on a burst attack that is set based upon weapons being used. Nice since it has multiple strength levels, can be controlled by the player choosing what weapons to use.

Guardian: Virtues that grant health/defense/dmg to self and allies on demand.

Engineer: Four skills that are set by the player’s utility skills and have a variety of effects.

Thief: Admittedly, the class I’ve not played so I may be off on my assessment. Stealth skills still looks very useful with a different ability based upon weapon. Steal has a nice shadowstep, but what you get from it depends on the enemy so it isn’t as reliable as other classes (when trying to get a specific effect). Still overall I feel this is quite handy as a base class mechanic.

Good class mechanics
Mesmer: 4 unique shatter effects on demand. Does require illusions which can make it unreliable/variable strength and is admittedly less useful for builds not focusing on illusions. All weapons have at least one clone/phantasm skill though so will frequently be able to make at least one pop out when needed for shatters.

Meh class mechanics
Ranger: On demand pet skill usage based on pet. Only one option per pet so not terribly wonderful. While my Necro would love some pet(minion) control mechanics, this mechanic doesn’t really scream “overly useful” to me.

Elementalist: Basically a glorified weapon swap. Can be useful sometimes to keep spamming attacks on people since each attunment has their own cooldowns (such as rotating AOE when defending/attacking a keep with a staff), but without including traits is nothing really special.

Bad class mechanics
Necro: 4 unique skills in a new form with a portion of your max hp. While that would be nice to have if just additional on demand skills, it replaces all your normal skills/utilities/healing. Also prevents healing or life drain effects. No ability to revive allies, stomp foes, use objects, etc. No ability to break controlling conditions. The 4 skills drain your ability to stay in the form (aside from life transfer). The best part about it really is using it as a meat shield if you get stunned/knockdown without an available stun break, or to be able to fall a bit further than normal. And sometimes while using this in a bit of a panic it is easy to 2x hit F1 quickly and just pop in/out of the form, so you get no benefit and put it on cooldown. You can’t tell how much time is left on DS ability cooldowns either at a glance so can’t use it as an on demand AOE from life transfer or fear from Doom unless you have a great internal clock. Getting life force itself feels like feast or famine sometimes, as in small skirmishes it feels like it takes forever to get a useful amount, while in big fights with mobs/players dying all around you the stuff just flows in from all directions.

What I personally would like to see DS change to
Either…
1) No form. You build up life force as normal. F1 = Life blast, F2 = Dark path, etc. You get a 0.5-1s graphical change on your character when you use the ability if needed for “flavor”. Cast times and ability cooldowns remain the same as on DS. Life force cost adjusted for balance as needed. Necro overall abilities retuned if necessary if overall class damage was kept low for the “extra hp” from in DS (which in anything but a 1v1 fight usually doesn’t mean much since while being focused the hp drops fast anyway and you can still be controlled unless heavily traited). I would prefer this over #2.
2) Death form. Immune to all damage/control/healing effects. Lasts a short time based on life force accumulated as balance requires. If very short (such as 1s per 25% life force), then all of the 4 skills would need to be quick casting, or replaced with an aura or something. Does not need to remove conditions on self (untraited), but should make you immune to them while in form. Skill damage/effects rebalanced as needed. Not my favorite choice as it’s just another Lich/plague form ability….but maybe if made useful enough (at least not a liability to enter) then I could like it.

In both cases traits would need to be reworked but could be similar to existing effects.

Death shroud as it is now just feels like the only class mechanic with more drawbacks than benefits (or indeed, any drawbacks at all!). If we need the transform for class flavor than make it worth it somehow, at this point almost any change would feel welcome to me!

a) I have to give you a internet kittenslap for placing ele so low (despite the fact that i only played one to 50ish) Having 4 weapon sets with a 1 second swap gcd is amazing, you can solo combo 4+ combo fields with it in most situations.
Also warrior adrenaline is just a second 5 skill, its nothing special.
b) Ze Necromancer can break a fight with DS, espcialyl when traited, and even if not it will at least be able to eat the strongest burst a enemy has without you taking any damage.
c) Most conditions dont affect necro DS either way because their ticks are on the same calculation timer as DS degeneration making everyone who doesnt have over 1.4k cond damage deal 0 damage to you with bleeds and only 1% more life force loss if you have burning.

I’m just going to say that I vastly prefer death shroud to my guardian’s virtues (although the passive regen and aegis are nice).

A power build with 30 in soul reaping makes a really useful and fun death shroud. I do wish it could last longer untraited though, or make more sense for condition builds.

Warrior one is super boring to be honest and very very simple and alot/most of the zerker warriors most likely specced to just have adrenaline at max for the passive bonus crit chance, dmg boost etc. so even less buttons to use.

Would say the coolest one is prolly engineer and elementist, the whole getting ekstra F1-4 skills on engi is great and the aoe heal rez is awesome in pve. And trait for condition removal on potion makes alot of the potion f1-4 even greater.

But agree that necro is the most terrible designed one along with the ekstra hp + base high hp. The skills is just forced upon all necro’s and there is no choice involved in how we want em to work like condition specced #1 and #4 does terrible dmg and #2 teleport you even though you might not want to.

wouldnt mind if DS 2 was given a 2nd skill that severed the bond so chill/bleed would apply but you wouldnt be teleported.

DS is fine as a concept, but the skills/mechanics need polish. Life Blast in particular needs to change based on the weapon you are using.

-Dagger’s Life Blast would do more damage to close enemies and restore LF on hit.
-Axe’s Life Blast would apply Vulnerability on hit and fire more quickly.
-Scepter’s Life Blast would apply Bleeding and Poison on hit.
-Staff’s Life Blast would pierce and have a longer range.

Andele.1306:

a) I have to give you a internet kittenslap for placing ele so low (despite the fact that i only played one to 50ish) Having 4 weapon sets with a 1 second swap gcd is amazing, you can solo combo 4+ combo fields with it in most situations.
Also warrior adrenaline is just a second 5 skill, its nothing special.
b) Ze Necromancer can break a fight with DS, espcialyl when traited, and even if not it will at least be able to eat the strongest burst a enemy has without you taking any damage.
c) Most conditions dont affect necro DS either way because their ticks are on the same calculation timer as DS degeneration making everyone who doesnt have over 1.4k cond damage deal 0 damage to you with bleeds and only 1% more life force loss if you have burning.

a) I agree 100% that the elementalist attunment allows for some nice solo comboing. However, it doesn’t add anything new by itself, it just happens that the ele weapons have a ton of combo fields/finishers on them. If necro had 2-3 finishers/fields on every weapon then you could do something similar, and ele’s uniqueness would be basically “I can swap an additional time more than you”.
b) I’m talking completely untraited here. Yeah, bring traits into it and Necro DS has a bit more utility (adding stability in the Soul Reaper line, etc)….but every other class can add a lot of neat effects on their own mechanics as well so can’t just compare traited Necro to untraited other classes.
c) Fair enough. But immobilize, chill, cripple, etc (in other words, the control conditions) still are unable to be removed even if you had the utility for it since you can’t use utilities in DS.

Draehl.2681:

DS is fine as a concept, but the skills/mechanics need polish. Life Blast in particular needs to change based on the weapon you are using.

-Dagger’s Life Blast would do more damage to close enemies and restore LF on hit.
-Axe’s Life Blast would apply Vulnerability on hit and fire more quickly.
-Scepter’s Life Blast would apply Bleeding and Poison on hit.
-Staff’s Life Blast would pierce and have a longer range.

Having some sort of control over the skills in DS by weapon or utilities equipped would also be a 3rd option for making me happy. If there was some way to get a cleanse, or heal (even if just to LF to allow you to stay in shround longer) based on that I could see shroud being a bit more useful. Also, I really want stomp/rez/use capabilities while in DS.

Kyton.3815:

a) I agree 100% that the elementalist attunment allows for some nice solo comboing. However, it doesn’t add anything new by itself, it just happens that the ele weapons have a ton of combo fields/finishers on them. If necro had 2-3 finishers/fields on every weapon then you could do something similar, and ele’s uniqueness would be basically “I can swap an additional time more than you”.
b) I’m talking completely untraited here. Yeah, bring traits into it and Necro DS has a bit more utility (adding stability in the Soul Reaper line, etc)….but every other class can add a lot of neat effects on their own mechanics as well so can’t just compare traited Necro to untraited other classes.
c) Fair enough. But immobilize, chill, cripple, etc (in other words, the control conditions) still are unable to be removed even if you had the utility for it since you can’t use utilities in DS.

a) I think you dont get the point, thing is no other class can make a 23 button rotation in 9 seconds that if properly timed does raid boss damage (with that i mean instakill a bunker guardian while having him cc locked) while still being a tanky kitten or utterly fail at their class damage and survivability despite identical setup. True having pretty much 2 more weapon sets doesnt sound like anything special on paper since its just a increase of a default feature, but holy fudge you can do a lot with it.
b) Even untraited its a interrupt gap closer and pretty much single burst migration (so you could call it a downplayed/alternate guardian virtues).
c) I know its kinda borderline to a Aunt Sally, but you cannot reply to that with anything but we have a freaking ton of condition removal, also one since no mechanic really does anything against conditions on its own, unless traited for it, and if done so even our DS is kinda one of the best being a 1 condition pre 5 seconds removal (with just CC or Putrid Mark and for 50 points paring a full condition removal signet guardian).

Andele.1306

a) I think you dont get the point, thing is no other class can make a 23 button rotation in 9 seconds that if properly timed does raid boss damage (with that i mean instakill a bunker guardian while having him cc locked) while still being a tanky kitten or utterly fail at their class damage and survivability despite identical setup. True having pretty much 2 more weapon sets doesnt sound like anything special on paper since its just a increase of a default feature, but holy fudge you can do a lot with it.
b) Even untraited its a interrupt gap closer and pretty much single burst migration (so you could call it a downplayed/alternate guardian virtues).
c) I know its kinda borderline to a Aunt Sally, but you cannot reply to that with anything but we have a freaking ton of condition removal, also one since no mechanic really does anything against conditions on its own, unless traited for it, and if done so even our DS is kinda one of the best being a 1 condition pre 5 seconds removal (with just CC or Putrid Mark and for 50 points paring a full condition removal signet guardian).

We’ll have to agree to disagree on some things, but that’s ok, my post is just my opinion and personal feedback. My final thoughts on these points:

a) My main point is Elementalist mechanic is better than Necro mechanic. Sounds like we both agree on that.
b) Never said DS was useless. There are some great situational uses such as the gap closer (if dagger user), and DS->quick fear if stunned to buy some recovery time, among others.
c) Sorry, but I still see this as a major detriment to DS. We have no condition removal in DS (aside from 1 trait that removes 1 condition when going INTO it). I’ve found myself frequently locked down or controlled (blind, fear, immobilize, etc) once i enter DS…which just wastes it. Good play on the opponent’s part. In PVE I have less problems since mobs don’t typically do that, but I’m getting at best a modest DPS increase from life blast spam, or just using it to better survive a big hit I know I can’t avoid (yay for no vigor), or using it to get a couple might stacks/fury as our self buffs are rather lacking otherwise.

I think if we had more skills to choose from when going into DS, then it would be less of a problem, but we just get those four fixed abilities and lose everything else + common abilities to rez/stomp. If they were useable outside of going into a new form (at a newly balanced cost), as an addition to our skills, then it would feel both more useful to me and could allow for some rebalancing to our damage since we would have less “overall hp”.

I would have vastly different ranks for class abilities.

#1: Mesmer. The shatters turn any of those illusions into either raw damage, condition damage, disabling, or evasion. The traits here really make it much better, allowing for a whole lot more confusion, more raw damage, reflection, AoE control, as well as being able to trigger on demand. There’s a reason why shatter mesmers are tier 1 in PVP.

#2: Elementalist. The element swaps are arguably better than a weapon swap, since you get twice as many skills. There are many traits that grant buffs upon switching or within attunements, and with so many different abilities on hand the fact is that an elementalist will almost always have the right skill on hand.

#3: Engineer. The toolbelt skills literally double engineer utilities, and can be given up to a 30% recharge from stats alone. This is ranked lower than the elementalist, though, since the toolbelt is done to compensate for kits taking up utility slots, and the fact that it is very rare for the utility and the corrosponding toolbelt to be really useful.

#4: Guardian. The 3 Virtues are awesome signet-like abilities. Their passives and their actives do pretty much the same things, with burning (best condition for non-condition based classes to use), healing, as well as single attack blocks. These increase in potency greatly when combined with all of the trait abilities, which do things like constantly apply retaliation, recharge nearly instantly, and grant AoE boons. The guardian is arguably equal or on better ground with the engineer.

#5: Necromancer. Although I consider DS below average, it does have its uses. The auto attack has fairly high damage (a little less than twice the staff’s auto attack), it has a somewhat weak teleport skill, and instant fear, and life transfer is great for tanking and AoE damage. It can be traited to give many buffs, heal, cleanse conditions, and even uses Enfeebling Blood. The reason why it is so down on the list is because it is wholly unreliable in PVP, it’s underwater abilities suck, and it is nigh useless on condition builds. In PVE it is also hard to use against single champions, who won’t let the player generate Lifeforce as easily.

#6: Warriors. Their ability is basically an extra weapon skill with a delay, or slowly growing buffs. Those are pretty decent buffs, though.

#7: Thieves. Stealing is quite random and doesn’t do much most of the time. It has some traits that make it more useful, but all in all it is an afterthought to the majority of thieves.

#8: Rangers. They have a bunch of abilities to control their pet. I suppose you could talk about the benefits of their pets vs. being by themselves, but really I just see this as something necessary for any pet class to function.

As for how I would improve things: the biggest issue with necromancer’s life force is that they’ve sacrificed so much control and defensive abilities to get it. In PVP and when fighting bosses in PVE, Deathshroud in no way compares to something like vigor or reflection skills or blocking skills. The best thing I think that can be done for DS is to have skills that generate Life Force be more plentiful or have the skills that already do generate lifeforce do it better. That way, the PVP and boss weakness of DS not being around when you need it is resolved.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#7: Thieves. Stealing is quite random and doesn’t do much most of the time. It has some traits that make it more useful, but all in all it is an afterthought to the majority of thieves.

#8: Rangers. They have a bunch of abilities to control their pet. I suppose you could talk about the benefits of their pets vs. being by themselves, but really I just see this as something necessary for any pet class to function.

Thiefs steal is essencial because of the plethora of traits that use it, there are builds set around it and mug is one of their strongest “abilities/traits” doing 2-3k damage on normal damage signet setups (kinda the equivalent worth of transfusion on low LF for 2.5k free heal)

On the rangers i must say that they got screwed, they turned the basic orders pet ui should have into utilites crippling control and probably the second best/fight breaking class mechanic. The pers themself are awesome trough.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for how I would improve things: the biggest issue with necromancer’s life force is that they’ve sacrificed so much control and defensive abilities to get it. In PVP and when fighting bosses in PVE, Deathshroud in no way compares to something like vigor or reflection skills or blocking skills. The best thing I think that can be done for DS is to have skills that generate Life Force be more plentiful or have the skills that already do generate lifeforce do it better. That way, the PVP and boss weakness of DS not being around when you need it is resolved.

That is the major problem with DS now, and such a simple fix, but apparently one that isn’t taken into consideration. You hit the nail so squarely on the head with this post it made my teeth hurt. Only other thing I would like to see is a condition form of shroud and it would pretty much wrap it up.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for how I would improve things: the biggest issue with necromancer’s life force is that they’ve sacrificed so much control and defensive abilities to get it. In PVP and when fighting bosses in PVE, Deathshroud in no way compares to something like vigor or reflection skills or blocking skills. The best thing I think that can be done for DS is to have skills that generate Life Force be more plentiful or have the skills that already do generate lifeforce do it better. That way, the PVP and boss weakness of DS not being around when you need it is resolved.

That is the major problem with DS now, and such a simple fix, but apparently one that isn’t taken into consideration. You hit the nail so squarely on the head with this post it made my teeth hurt. Only other thing I would like to see is a condition form of shroud and it would pretty much wrap it up.

May i give you a look back at BWE2… also known as shroud tanks 5 people, never goes under 50% LF…
My gripe is that Physical attacks hit ds like 2 to 4 times as hard as they would your real hp with it being only around 60%~ of your hp, Now if soul reaping actually turned the 100% max LF into 130% max LF…. Also life blast 50% LF damage drop needs to go away.

The problem with DS is that it doesn’t enable the class to meet Anets vision of it enough, in their words:

Attrition fights? Maybe 1v1 but when it comes to attrition when compared to other classes Necro is third rate (clones/stealth/mobility/healing all beat DS, Thiefs/Mesmers/Eles, and maybe Guards basically are the top dogs in the attrition department)

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#7: Thieves. Stealing is quite random and doesn’t do much most of the time. It has some traits that make it more useful, but all in all it is an afterthought to the majority of thieves.

#8: Rangers. They have a bunch of abilities to control their pet. I suppose you could talk about the benefits of their pets vs. being by themselves, but really I just see this as something necessary for any pet class to function.

You rate Thieves by only taking Stealth in consideration. By the class mecanism is far from being only that.

Thief have the initiative system, in my opinion the strongest system in the game. They have no CD on weapon skill, it only use initiate meaning if you need the same weapon skilll like Hearth Seeker 3 time in a row, you can do it.

I would rate thief unique ability in the top 3.

Ranger are middle pack I think. They have many pros and cons.

One of the greatest pros is being able to build really tanky, and still having great damage with pet. You also can use it when downed and when out of sight.

Death Shroud, in my opinion, is one of the most boring mecanism in the game. Maybe equal with warrior.

When you compare to elementalist that have twice the weapon skill, or engineer that can play multikit and get crazy number of abilities.

We have a static 4 abilities.

Maybe guardian are boring too, one of the only class I didn’t play much.

DS is efficient in 1 vs 1, but other then that. meh.

I love the concept, but there’s some big pet hates with it;

Can’t res someone/use a item. (Or finish someone in pvp)

Can’t use a signet/well to fix cond. (Hard to support a party in dungeon)

Can’t heal/siphon life. (Or even see the CD on ⁶) – Worst in dungeon where there’s a big burst of aoe party dam, you use DS defensively and you can’t help heal the party, and you miss all the party heals.

The green screen makes some of the red don’t stand in me circles hard to see.

Either too little or too much life force.

The trait line to increase life force, is pointless. – Still ticks 4 (or 3 with trait) % per second. Damage is rounded to 1% blocks, so even with all 30 points in that trait line, it’s very, very rare you get +1sec over 0. (Same with tough, slight diff with vit)

It’s power/weapon based – Using it offensively requires a power based build & having to swap to ‘proper weapon’ before flipin in.

It’s tricky to theory craft. – From what I can tell, it’s 75% your base stat vit. Plus vit on gear but -1% per 10 vit off gear. Tough might work but as it rounds to 1% Shrug

Anyway, same gripe with most of that with Lich Form (tho siphon & heals by others work in that)
It’s very enjoyable when it’s all going well and you get to offensively use it, stacking might. And it’s very handy to save you a few dot ticks waiting on 6Heal CD after a long battle.

Andele.1306:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

As for how I would improve things: the biggest issue with necromancer’s life force is that they’ve sacrificed so much control and defensive abilities to get it. In PVP and when fighting bosses in PVE, Deathshroud in no way compares to something like vigor or reflection skills or blocking skills. The best thing I think that can be done for DS is to have skills that generate Life Force be more plentiful or have the skills that already do generate lifeforce do it better. That way, the PVP and boss weakness of DS not being around when you need it is resolved.

That is the major problem with DS now, and such a simple fix, but apparently one that isn’t taken into consideration. You hit the nail so squarely on the head with this post it made my teeth hurt. Only other thing I would like to see is a condition form of shroud and it would pretty much wrap it up.

May i give you a look back at BWE2… also known as shroud tanks 5 people, never goes under 50% LF…
My gripe is that Physical attacks hit ds like 2 to 4 times as hard as they would your real hp with it being only around 60%~ of your hp, Now if soul reaping actually turned the 100% max LF into 130% max LF…. Also life blast 50% LF damage drop needs to go away.

No I remember old DS, and yeah it was way too op, but lots of the mechanics that enabled it to do so were removed, like spectral effects still working while in DS, ect ect. There can be a happy medium found without reverting to op beta status. I agree with you about the toughness not scaling properly in DS. There are no hard confirmed numbers on it, but 5 minutues of playing will show you just how big of a difference there is, plus as you pointed out the vastly uneven health ratio of hp to lf.

No offense, but you (the OP) have no idea of what you are talking about.

Elementalist class mechanic isn’t just a glorified weapon swap. You receive extra buffs per attunement and on swap. It also counts as weapon swap for sigil purposes. It’s probably the best class mechanic in the game.

Thief mechanic is basically just a shadow step with a random effect on it. Check on thieves forums, they hate it with passion, how can it even be considered “Best”?

Warrior mechanic is overly simple, it’s a 5th button and some warrior builds don’t even use it, because they relly on having full rage all the time.

Necro DS is amazing for suvival, the extra fear is a good “oh crap” interrupt, or escape skill. The drain life can heal allies, it also has a “charge” for chasing targets. Oh, yes, it has it’s own hp bar that can mitigate some bursts! I can’t possible count how many times DS saved my skin solely for the extra HP. Can it be buffed? I’d like dark blast to be based on my mainhand, just that.

Necros have more issues with the bleed cap than they have with DS. I think necro DoTs shouldn’t be bleeds, they should be something unique to necros, like confuse is for mesmer. Like “curse”, it’d work exactly like bleed, but you wouldn’t have to share it with thieves, warriors and everyone else…

The Kay.6539:

No offense, but you (the OP) have no idea of what you are talking about.

Elementalist class mechanic isn’t just a glorified weapon swap. You receive extra buffs per attunement and on swap. It also counts as weapon swap for sigil purposes. It’s probably the best class mechanic in the game.

Thief mechanic is basically just a shadow step with a random effect on it. Check on thieves forums, they hate it with passion, how can it even be considered “Best”?

Warrior mechanic is overly simple, it’s a 5th button and some warrior builds don’t even use it, because they relly on having full rage all the time.

Necro DS is amazing for suvival, the extra fear is a good “oh crap” interrupt, or escape skill. The drain life can heal allies, it also has a “charge” for chasing targets. Oh, yes, it has it’s own hp bar that can mitigate some bursts! I can’t possible count how many times DS saved my skin solely for the extra HP. Can it be buffed? I’d like dark blast to be based on my mainhand, just that.

Necros have more issues with the bleed cap than they have with DS. I think necro DoTs shouldn’t be bleeds, they should be something unique to necros, like confuse is for mesmer. Like “curse”, it’d work exactly like bleed, but you wouldn’t have to share it with thieves, warriors and everyone else…

I agree mostly. Death Shroud isn’t all that different than the Warrior Burst mechanic. They get an extra bar that they can spend for damage. We get an extra bar that we can spend to soak damage. Their bar does different stuff depending on the weapon they’re using. Ours does the same things no matter what, kind of like Shatter. They’re all pretty much the same. The most iconoclastic ones are easily Elementalist and Engineer, since they can get so much skill variety out of theirs.

That said, I like DS far more than Warrior Burst. It’s more hitpoints. I mean, there’s a lot of depth and complexity you can get into by comparing how LF generation and health generation can be optimized and whatnot. But at the end of the day it’s more hitpoints with a few useful skills attached. I like that it’s somewhat simple, but gets more complex as you figure out how all the moving parts fit together.

Elementalists have 20 weapon skills per weapon to memorize right off the bat. Mesmers have to decide if they want to dump all their clones for damage and not have them for a daze at day 1. Engineers have double the utility skills to manage. Necros get a bunch of extra hitpoints and 4 skills that never change, but get a ton of different ways to play with (or ignore) that mechanic through gearing, utilities, and traits. It’s easily my favorite class mechanic, which is why I’m still playing the class even though I’ve got a bunch of alts at 80.

The Kay.6539:

No offense, but you (the OP) have no idea of what you are talking about.

Elementalist class mechanic isn’t just a glorified weapon swap. You receive extra buffs per attunement and on swap. It also counts as weapon swap for sigil purposes. It’s probably the best class mechanic in the game.

Thief mechanic is basically just a shadow step with a random effect on it. Check on thieves forums, they hate it with passion, how can it even be considered “Best”?

Warrior mechanic is overly simple, it’s a 5th button and some warrior builds don’t even use it, because they relly on having full rage all the time.

Necro DS is amazing for suvival, the extra fear is a good “oh crap” interrupt, or escape skill. The drain life can heal allies, it also has a “charge” for chasing targets. Oh, yes, it has it’s own hp bar that can mitigate some bursts! I can’t possible count how many times DS saved my skin solely for the extra HP. Can it be buffed? I’d like dark blast to be based on my mainhand, just that.

Necros have more issues with the bleed cap than they have with DS. I think necro DoTs shouldn’t be bleeds, they should be something unique to necros, like confuse is for mesmer. Like “curse”, it’d work exactly like bleed, but you wouldn’t have to share it with thieves, warriors and everyone else…

I can count how many times DS has saved me…on one hand too. Its all well and good in 1v1 or even 1v2, but get more than that on you and you might as well not even have ds at all.. Oh wait my bad we can just escap….errr nm…oh we can just evad…nope, oh I got it we can invuln/shrink/stealth….dang guess not. Ah I got it we have that all powerful fear right? Because phh no one runs with stability hidden under 200 boons right?

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Because phh no one runs with stability hidden under 200 boons right?

Corrupt boon, don’t even need to waste your fear then too, their stability does it for you.

Yes, Bhawb, but our fear still doesn’t last long enough to truly make absolute use of it.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Yes, Bhawb, but our fear still doesn’t last long enough to truly make absolute use of it.

Free daze + knockback no matter the weapon set and you’re complaining?

Knockback is significantly stronger, and lasts longer depending on class/build. Plus it’s generally always AoE, and they have more access to it. Don’t use that argument with me, bro.

Bhawb.7408:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Because phh no one runs with stability hidden under 200 boons right?

Corrupt boon, don’t even need to waste your fear then too, their stability does it for you.

That’s all well and good, but when they can spam boons all day long and we’re stuck with long cd’s and lacking mobility, plus you got people beating on you all the time too….yeah. That’s why I said small skirmishes, not really a problem, but it only takes a split second for every single opponent to spot a necro and hone in on them because they know we’re easy kills. I spend more time in pvp getitng flopped around like a 2nd hand ragdoll than doing any actual fighting. That’s all people bring anymore it seems, KD/stun/immobilizes and nothing but boons

The best access to hard CC is with hammer, in builds that do no damage.

It’s an interrupt, to interrupt things. For interrupting purposes 1 second is more than enough time; you are confusing something every necromancer can do with something a build built specifically to CC can do.

Something that we can’t do, Bhawb.

I’m not debating that we can do a build like that, but again you are comparing what a specialized build can do vs what a Necromancer gets out of the box.

Jack of all trades, master of none I’d suppose.

I agree that DS needs some improvement. I sometimes run a 30/0/10/0/30 build with zerker gear on. I weave in and out of death shroud for no more than a few seconds at a time. I pop in and shoot a few life blasts while my axe 2 is on CD and pop back out for axe 2, swap to staff and use marks (traited to give LF) to power my LF back to full, and back to axe for axe 2 and DS for life blast spam. For this rotation and setup, DS fully meets my needs and DS can also be used as an extra life bar if i am low. mixing LB into my rotation contributes to my dps and can extend my life if need be. I also have a full condition set where i would like to so a similar thing. I want to be able to weave in and out of DS and top off my conditions or increase my condition damage while in DS, or be able to continue to stack bleeds and poison, or even a large bursting damage move based on conditions (similar to scepter 3 but stronger and on a longer CD).

I would also like to see that life siphons and healing could be used in DS to replenish my health pool while in DS. If not actually being able to use my heal in DS, then to at least see my CD’s. I honestly think that if you could use your utility skills in DS and you do, then you are wasting LF and should leave DS to use them. Otherwise, DS is not as bad as some people are making it out to be. I actually really like using DS.

The main complaint or criticism i have is that the F1-F4 abilities of all professions should be useful for all builds. warriors not using their adrenaline abilities because they want their passive abilities from traits seems like the same kind of issue. (I dont have a warrior, yet. so i dont know much about it.)

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I can count how many times DS has saved me…on one hand too. Its all well and good in 1v1 or even 1v2, but get more than that on you and you might as well not even have ds at all.. Oh wait my bad we can just escap….errr nm…oh we can just evad…nope, oh I got it we can invuln/shrink/stealth….dang guess not. Ah I got it we have that all powerful fear right? Because phh no one runs with stability hidden under 200 boons right?

Oh, you want to 1v5? Yeah, necro isn’t for you, sorry. sarcasm
And if DS has saved you less than 5 times, you are either undergeared, a liar or a terrible player. Considering the rest of your post, I’ll guess it’s the last.

I have no issues on medium scale skirmishes on my necro, I actually excel at it with a chill duration build and condition damage.

The Kay.6539:

No offense, but you (the OP) have no idea of what you are talking about.

Elementalist class mechanic isn’t just a glorified weapon swap. You receive extra buffs per attunement and on swap. It also counts as weapon swap for sigil purposes. It’s probably the best class mechanic in the game.

Thief mechanic is basically just a shadow step with a random effect on it. Check on thieves forums, they hate it with passion, how can it even be considered “Best”?

Warrior mechanic is overly simple, it’s a 5th button and some warrior builds don’t even use it, because they relly on having full rage all the time.

Necro DS is amazing for suvival, the extra fear is a good “oh crap” interrupt, or escape skill. The drain life can heal allies, it also has a “charge” for chasing targets. Oh, yes, it has it’s own hp bar that can mitigate some bursts! I can’t possible count how many times DS saved my skin solely for the extra HP. Can it be buffed? I’d like dark blast to be based on my mainhand, just that.

Necros have more issues with the bleed cap than they have with DS. I think necro DoTs shouldn’t be bleeds, they should be something unique to necros, like confuse is for mesmer. Like “curse”, it’d work exactly like bleed, but you wouldn’t have to share it with thieves, warriors and everyone else…

I’m glad to see some input on this topic, but I can see you probably just jumped to my bolded sections for each class instead of reading the second paragraph I had where I said “Note that all of this is just the base mechanic, not including traits etc which all classes have to add a bit to how they play.” Elementalist attunement swap grants NOTHING untraited aside from access to the new set of weapon skills. I have an elementalist as well, and yes….every trait line will add something to one or more attunements. At any rate, it sounds like you still agree with me that the Elementalist mechanic is superior than Necro’s.

I can tell now I made a mistake in my personal ratings of the classes since a lot of people seem to be focusing on that…..in particular the elementalist one

I can see how some would also find the Warrior burst a boring skill since it is just one ability on F1. However, since it adds the capability to get a new always available effect based upon what weapon you use I personally find it more useful (raw damage, stun, fire field). There is no downside to it, unlike Death Shroud where you can’t heal/be healed, can easily accidentally cancel it, can’t tell how long you have left on cooldowns, can’t get out of control effects, so on.

I agree 100% that Death Shroud has it’s uses. I’ve used the quick jump into DS ->fear->out of DS when knocked down and need to avoid a follow up attack such as 100 blades myself. I just feel that the benefit/drawback ratio is unfavorable. But hey, everyone has their own opinion and I respect yours if you feel it is great as is. I’m glad it is working for you. For me….it feels like in PvP/WvW it just slows my rate of dying without doing anything beneficial in most cases.

Woodycooks.7152:

I agree that DS needs some improvement. I sometimes run a 30/0/10/0/30 build with zerker gear on. I weave in and out of death shroud for no more than a few seconds at a time. I pop in and shoot a few life blasts while my axe 2 is on CD and pop back out for axe 2, swap to staff and use marks (traited to give LF) to power my LF back to full, and back to axe for axe 2 and DS for life blast spam. For this rotation and setup, DS fully meets my needs and DS can also be used as an extra life bar if i am low. mixing LB into my rotation contributes to my dps and can extend my life if need be. I also have a full condition set where i would like to so a similar thing. I want to be able to weave in and out of DS and top off my conditions or increase my condition damage while in DS, or be able to continue to stack bleeds and poison, or even a large bursting damage move based on conditions (similar to scepter 3 but stronger and on a longer CD).

I would also like to see that life siphons and healing could be used in DS to replenish my health pool while in DS. If not actually being able to use my heal in DS, then to at least see my CD’s. I honestly think that if you could use your utility skills in DS and you do, then you are wasting LF and should leave DS to use them. Otherwise, DS is not as bad as some people are making it out to be. I actually really like using DS.

The main complaint or criticism i have is that the F1-F4 abilities of all professions should be useful for all builds. warriors not using their adrenaline abilities because they want their passive abilities from traits seems like the same kind of issue. (I dont have a warrior, yet. so i dont know much about it.)

I feel much as you do. The only thing different in a lot of my experience is that I’m frequently controlled in some manner and can’t really life blast spam (I always inevitably seem to be blinded or stunned or something).

Definitely agree with the siphon/healing. I guess from the healing front the best I can say positively about Death Shroud is I’ve used it (if I was lucky to have it filled) to run around doing nothing but avoiding attacks/dodging while waiting for my heal to recharge. Now that we can actually at least see more than just the 4 DS abilities it is a bit better in this regard. Although during this time I’m not really damaging the enemy either, but at least I can hopefully hold a point a bit longer praying for help to arrive.

Kyton.3815:

I’m glad to see some input on this topic, but I can see you probably just jumped to my bolded sections for each class instead of reading the second paragraph I had where I said “Note that all of this is just the base mechanic, not including traits etc which all classes have to add a bit to how they play.” Elementalist attunement swap grants NOTHING untraited aside from access to the new set of weapon skills. I have an elementalist as well, and yes….every trait line will add something to one or more attunements. At any rate, it sounds like you still agree with me that the Elementalist mechanic is superior than Necro’s.

I can tell now I made a mistake in my personal ratings of the classes since a lot of people seem to be focusing on that…..in particular the elementalist one

I can see how some would also find the Warrior burst a boring skill since it is just one ability on F1. However, since it adds the capability to get a new always available effect based upon what weapon you use I personally find it more useful (raw damage, stun, fire field). There is no downside to it, unlike Death Shroud where you can’t heal/be healed, can easily accidentally cancel it, can’t tell how long you have left on cooldowns, can’t get out of control effects, so on.

I agree 100% that Death Shroud has it’s uses. I’ve used the quick jump into DS ->fear->out of DS when knocked down and need to avoid a follow up attack such as 100 blades myself. I just feel that the benefit/drawback ratio is unfavorable. But hey, everyone has their own opinion and I respect yours if you feel it is great as is. I’m glad it is working for you. For me….it feels like in PvP/WvW it just slows my rate of dying without doing anything beneficial in most cases.

Yes, I think the elementalist mechanic is better than the necro’s. I am biased, elementalist is my main class, and it’s a blast to play and “stance dance” on it’s elements.

DS can be “buffed” in quality of life, like swaping your weapon’s bar for the DS bar when you transform, so you can see the cooldowns. I also would love to be able to swap my weapons set while in DS, so I can come out ready to do something else.

My other issue with DS is that you can’t passively spec for it well, like you can on elementalist, each talent line gives something good added to attunement. For DS you need to spec INTO it, and it’s not an effective build imho.

The Kay.6539:

Nay of the Ether.8913:

I can count how many times DS has saved me…on one hand too. Its all well and good in 1v1 or even 1v2, but get more than that on you and you might as well not even have ds at all.. Oh wait my bad we can just escap….errr nm…oh we can just evad…nope, oh I got it we can invuln/shrink/stealth….dang guess not. Ah I got it we have that all powerful fear right? Because phh no one runs with stability hidden under 200 boons right?

Oh, you want to 1v5? Yeah, necro isn’t for you, sorry. sarcasm
And if DS has saved you less than 5 times, you are either undergeared, a liar or a terrible player. Considering the rest of your post, I’ll guess it’s the last.

I have no issues on medium scale skirmishes on my necro, I actually excel at it with a chill duration build and condition damage.

I never said I wanted to 5v1 nor did I say I was mr epicleet like you obviously are. But there’s no way you can tell me we don’t have problems with those things I mentioned. Just because you run one of the few viably strong pvp builds doesn’t exempt you from the truth of it. While necros may have the ability to make many half decent builds compared to other classes, very few can be used in any serious format. And therein lies the problem.The boon problem is a big problem that needs fixing and something tells me their upcoming fix will only hurt us more than help us.