Guild Wars 2

Hi guys,

did you all just give up on DS changes or are you satisfied the way it works? I love the Necromancer and think it’s the most versatile, fun class in the game but the class defining system (DS) still is badly designed. This is mostly for PvE.

All calsses have some mechanic that works untraited and gives you at least nice benefits or options however you play. The only other class that comes close to us is the thief steal in PvE if untraited.
Deathshroud requires you for PvE to be traited to make it even viable. If untraited it’s just a meatshield and you have most likely all other traits in stuff for your utilites and weapons, which are unusable. Currently I play a lot of Blood for fun and just can’t profit from vampiric while in DS. If I go full power I still have to trait stuff in DS to make it worthwhile, while actually I would prefer to keep my weapons and just ignore DS completely as it gives me no edge/utility or what so ever if I choose to trait differently. No other class has a restriction where the class mechanic negates a whole bunch of their passive abilities like the life siphon or utilities.

If untraited:

In PvP it is okayish and gives a few more seconds of life so that maybe some cd’s come off again and of course the fear, while the damage is not worth it. But if you are lucky you get loaded with conditions that kill you the second you are out of DS, because you do not have a lot against conditions in DS, while the necromancer should be one of the top classes against conditions. Underwater this is another story with life blast transferring conditions.

In WvW it is more or less the same.

In PvE DS is simply meaningless if untraited. You will do most likely no damage, maybe just using Life Transfer for a short AoE burst as we have nothing else of the sort in our reportoire. The meatshield is seldom required for me and it feels kind of stupid having a class mechanic that I won’t use ever, as it strips me of the skills I have traited and actually want to use.

If you compare it to other classes:
Mesmer: Killing all your clones for an effect. Also somehow discussable in PvE, but you can use it without drawbacks for a dmg burst in PvE and regain the clones fast.
Guardian: Giving passive and active boons. This meachanic is always viable.
Thief: Steal and Item + Teleport. The item you steal in PvE might not make any sense and maybe you do not want to getin melee range. Also very bad for PvE in some situations and stays unused if untraited.
Elementalist: Elemental switch. Well, I like the idea and it is a great mechanic and used always.
Warrior: Damage burst or utility depending on weapon. Not very interesting as mechanic but always viable for an extra burst or other stuff.
Ranger: Pet. Is always there, it is not just the F2. Extra damage and no time where you would just not use the pet at all.
Engeneer: Switches to other kit’s for more utility. Interesting mechanic and always usable without drawbacks as you still have your utility skills.

Of course there are drawbacks to some class mechanis as well, like using your main weapon but these are drawbacks, as the class mechanic gives you a real edge.

So, please Dev’s be creative and think of a way to make DS more attractive even if untraited or to use our gained Life Force in another way (a second option) that actually increases the abilites of the class instead of stripping us of our preferred way to play. It feels like I have to trait two classes and balance them in the middle to make them useful.

Edit:
Changed topic from : “DS is a bad mechanic”
to a more neutral one: “DS and build synergy discussion”

I don’t really understand your complaint. If you think DS is weak untraited then just use the traits you think improves it.
Comparing our class mechanic to other’s in regards to how it performs without any traits is rather pointless as well. People use traits, that’s just how it is. And literally every viable build in any environment of the game includes traits that somehow interact with Death Shroud.
Also, balancing can only be done when you’re factoring in DS traits. You can’t simply flat buff the base version of DS.

I think DS is bad mechanic because many traits/spells dont work with our core design. Duno who made the design call to allow that…. I dont care to give any suggestions or point all the things wrong with it, in my opinion, since noeone cares about it (from anet side)….

simple solution.. allow us to use utilities but block out heal while in ds if they are scared healing will be op

I’m quite happy with DS though I do wish Dark Path’s projectile speed got bumped up a bit.. it rarely ever connects so I stopped trying to use it altogether.

Most class mechanics are semi-weak if untraited, but good enough to base a build on if you trait for them. I think that describes DS pretty well.

I really don’t think we need to be able to drop wells while in DS, or use spectral skills while already in DS to extend uptime even further than we already can.

I actually really like DS’s design. Damage in PvE that scales up to infinite reeks of bad PvE design to me, so although Necros have a bit of an issue in that regard, it isn’t just the class design but the dungeon/boss design that is contributing.

I really think being able to use utilities while in DS should be a thing, though a more masochistic part of me enjoys not being able to heal while in DS. It creates an environment where subtle shifts in when you use certain abilities can have a very large impact on how well you perform. It can be very unforgiving, but also very powerful when everything clicks. Not being able to use utilities also puts more emphasis on proper timing or your performance can suffer.

My guess is the ability to use/see 6 – 10 on the skill bar is binary, where you can either see it and use it or it gets totally blocked out due to transformation. Being able to at least see your cooldowns would be a really nice Quality of Life step, but I’m still just not sure that healing effects should be allowed in DS.

Either way, I’m pretty comfortable with how it is at the moment, personally.

sternenstaub.8763:

Hi guys,

did you all just give up on DS changes or are you satisfied the way it works?

Lifesteal should work in DS.
and sometimes i think the amount of life force you can lose in a second should be capped.

but besides that, im really content with our class mechanic itself.

No ability in the game should require more than two traits to max.

So, you are on to something with your critique. The more traits that can improve Deathshroud, the weaker the base Deathshroud must be balanced at.

nekretaal.6485:

No ability in the game should require more than two traits to max.

So, you are on to something with your critique. The more traits that can improve Deathshroud, the weaker the base Deathshroud must be balanced at.

Almost every Profession mechanic or suite of utilities (signets/shouts/minions/etc) Has more than two traits to improve them, for every profession. It’s part of what allows you to make a ‘minion build’ as a Necro or a ‘Shout build’ as a Guardian.

Every profession mechanic has a Trait tree that improves an aspect of it, along with traits and passives scattered throughout all of their trees, granting it additional utility or effectiveness. Roll a mesmer, look at their Traits and notice just how many buff Clones, phantasms and shatters in one way or another. Do the same for Thieves with steal and initiative, or Warriors with adrenaline and burst, or Elementalists with attunements.

If you want your profession mechanic to be powerful, you need to trait for it, regardless of profession. If you trait for something else, then you sacrifice how strong your profession mechanic can be. DS is okay untraited and can be very powerful with traits, just like every other profession mechanic, I don’t see a problem with it.

I find two parts of this OP rather funny…

sternenstaub.8763:

Elementalist: Elemental switch. Well, I like the idea and it is a great mechanic and used always.

Attunement swapping is just a lazy way for the devs to balance individual skills and throw long CDs on everything instead. It’s also not much of a benefit unless you are throwing a bunch of points into Arcana or running Fresh Air.

sternenstaub.8763:

Ranger: Pet. Is always there, it is not just the F2. Extra damage and no time where you would just not use the pet at all.

The recent Ranger CDI could have been subtitled “Think Tank on Reducing the Harm Pets do to the Ranger Class”. If there was a more frustrating and less useful class mechanic than Ranger pets, I can’t point it out.

I don’t think DS has issues with the number of traits that buff it, so much as it has a few issues with things that don’t work with it.

Like others have said, its not that DS is weak itself, its that it blocks too many things that would otherwise have great synergy.

I have to say I kind of agree with the OP. I’m still fairly new to Necro, I’m up to level 62 and still playing around trying to figure out what kind of build I like. I have redone my traits a few times because every build I have seen always has at least 10 points into Soul Reaping, and I’m not getting why. I almost never use DS, I don’t know if I just don’t get it or what, but I don’t see the point at all.

The only time I ever use it is if all my AOE’s are on cooldown I’ll pop DS and use the #4 for some AOE while my real skills cool down. I’m perfectly willing to accept the possibility that it’s just me and I don’t get it, but I see at least a couple people have the same experience. I just don’t get the point of DS at all, the part I don’t like is it’s our ‘unique class mechanic’ and if it were removed tomorrow I wouldn’t even notice the difference.

I always use DS at aoe. Drop wells, pop DS.
AOE in DS > any AOE u can use on necro, if mobs are not grouped close enough for wells. Pop DS , hit 5 (big burst at the end) and hit 4, mobs are dead. Ofc use highest dmg weapon u have. Traits in soul reaping are more then welcome – vital persistence, unyielding blast and deathly perception is what u need for pve (solo).

I honestly don’t play necro, and I rarely pve nowadays, so.. (wait why am I here…)

But honestly, what you just described sounds a lot cooler than my pet. it’s basically a clunky meatshield that has an F2 that causes fear for 2 seconds on like.. a 60s cd. it also does a bit of dps (like 600 at level 80)

if you don’t trait in something it’s probably going to be a lot worse than if you did. e.g. without beserker’s armor a power build would be useless, and without rabid armor condi builds would be useless, in the same way that it sounds like your death shroud is right now.

I’d rather it be that way, however I only wish that an entire class mechanic wouldn’t rely on a couple builds. It’d be cooler if your build determined your class mechanic (e.g. if you use a staff and have a ton of points in… whatever makes a staff good, you get some fancy power that say.. makes your aoes eat people alive and turn them into zombies or something… actually that’d be really neat for wvw zergs… wanders off)

DS can be used as major ally heal, dps, aoe dps, applying burn for condition builds, terror builds etc. it has alot of combos and usable futures

sternenstaub.8763:

Hi guys,

did you all just give up on DS changes or are you satisfied the way it works? I love the Necromancer and think it’s the most versatile, fun class in the game but the class defining system (DS) still is badly designed. This is mostly for PvE.

All calsses have some mechanic that works untraited and gives you at least nice benefits or options however you play. The only other class that comes close to us is the thief steal in PvE if untraited.
Deathshroud requires you for PvE to be traited to make it even viable. If untraited it’s just a meatshield and you have most likely all other traits in stuff for your utilites and weapons, which are unusable. Currently I play a lot of Blood for fun and just can’t profit from vampiric while in DS. If I go full power I still have to trait stuff in DS to make it worthwhile, while actually I would prefer to keep my weapons and just ignore DS completely as it gives me no edge/utility or what so ever if I choose to trait differently. No other class has a restriction where the class mechanic negates a whole bunch of their passive abilities like the life siphon or utilities.

If untraited:

In PvP it is okayish and gives a few more seconds of life so that maybe some cd’s come off again and of course the fear, while the damage is not worth it. But if you are lucky you get loaded with conditions that kill you the second you are out of DS, because you do not have a lot against conditions in DS, while the necromancer should be one of the top classes against conditions. Underwater this is another story with life blast transferring conditions.

In WvW it is more or less the same.

In PvE DS is simply meaningless if untraited. You will do most likely no damage, maybe just using Life Transfer for a short AoE burst as we have nothing else of the sort in our reportoire. The meatshield is seldom required for me and it feels kind of stupid having a class mechanic that I won’t use ever, as it strips me of the skills I have traited and actually want to use.

If you compare it to other classes:
Mesmer: Killing all your clones for an effect. Also somehow discussable in PvE, but you can use it without drawbacks for a dmg burst in PvE and regain the clones fast.
Guardian: Giving passive and active boons. This meachanic is always viable.
Thief: Steal and Item + Teleport. The item you steal in PvE might not make any sense and maybe you do not want to getin melee range. Also very bad for PvE in some situations and stays unused if untraited.
Elementalist: Elemental switch. Well, I like the idea and it is a great mechanic and used always.
Warrior: Damage burst or utility depending on weapon. Not very interesting as mechanic but always viable for an extra burst or other stuff.
Ranger: Pet. Is always there, it is not just the F2. Extra damage and no time where you would just not use the pet at all.
Engeneer: Switches to other kit’s for more utility. Interesting mechanic and always usable without drawbacks as you still have your utility skills.

Of course there are drawbacks to some class mechanis as well, like using your main weapon but these are drawbacks, as the class mechanic gives you a real edge.

So, please Dev’s be creative and think of a way to make DS more attractive even if untraited or to use our gained Life Force in another way (a second option) that actually increases the abilites of the class instead of stripping us of our preferred way to play. It feels like I have to trait two classes and balance them in the middle to make them useful.

1. 30 Into blood – First lock: Transfusion, heal heal heal, you’re welcome allies
2. DS 1 Skill is a raw blob of piercing damage, perhaps if you have a power build you should use it from time to time ?
3. Pvp ‘gives you some extra life’ I think you’re playing necromancer wrong and you do not understand how the mechanic works.
4. Doom : Fear + Interrupt nowadays, can’t complain
5. Please dev’s, only change ‘dark path’ to a teleport skill, let the rest stay as it is

Falcon.8713:

1. 30 Into blood – First lock: Transfusion, heal heal heal, you’re welcome allies
2. DS 1 Skill is a raw blob of piercing damage, perhaps if you have a power build you should use it from time to time ?
3. Pvp ‘gives you some extra life’ I think you’re playing necromancer wrong and you do not understand how the mechanic works.
4. Doom : Fear + Interrupt nowadays, can’t complain
5. Please dev’s, only change ‘dark path’ to a teleport skill, let the rest stay as it is

1. 30 into blood: Is a trait choice, not a basic mechanic of DS. I actually traited vampiric rituals, which is aoe life leech and pretty nice in a teamfight/against many npc’s, while being also pretty egoistic. The heal is every second but when I pop the well and go into DS it’s not longer “heal heal heal”, it is nothing nothing nothing. Lost trait choice in DS.
2. DS Life blast is a wet noodle without the piercing (which is a trait again) and does less damage than my dagger 1. It is ranged, but my axe is ranged as well and axe 2 is in PVE better than untraited lifeblast.
3. I think I do understand how it works. If I play without traited stuff it is just some life barrier and a fear + less damage then what I would be able to do with my normal weapons.
4. Like I said, the fear is nice in PvP. In PvE it’s mostly useless due to defiant. Dhuum is again a trait (do you see where I am going here?).

It seems I made myself not clear enough with the original post. I am sorry for that it was poorly put together.
What I wanted to point out is that most basic mechanics of other classes are adding something to the class, even when one plays a build that completely ignores traits for the class mechanic (like the ranger pet even if it’s AI is broken or the elemental change even with high cd’s), while DS without traits even robs you of some of your specced builds versatility without giving you anything viable in return (especially in PvE). Even though I am not a big fan of DS Form itself, I can arrange with it and it can be strong, very strong if traited and played correctly. But this is just one class build and should not be the meta for Necromancer.
As Bhawb said, DS blocks too much of our core utility with the skills 6-10 being gone(and if traits get blocked it’s even worse). You have to somehow build around this with choosing traits for DS to make it worthwhile, so that you can actually profit of it, while these traits again are not usefull as long as your a not in DS. This makes some builds unviable and leads to extra strong DS traits to adjust for the rare uptime, which when chosen all together, become too strong and bring problems in balancing.

What I am asking for is a way to specc for a build without having to choose between
1. using DS and losing your core build and blocking even some of the chosen traits that define that build
2. ignoring DS alltogether and losing out on the class “defining” ability to play the build I want to play
3. or choosing partly the build I want to play + some DS traits to make both paths somehow seem viable

If I want to go all Vampire I want to be all vampire and using DS as a Vampire.
If I want to go all Wells and Power, I also would want to trigger those wells in DS, as untraited DS otherwise is meaningless, as it is a lot less damage and support than my normal form.
If I want to go all Death, i want to kill people in DS being invincible, except for the time I am outside of DS and regenerate Life Force
If I want to go all hybrid and being a kitten pain in the a.. in both forms

Currently just the third and foruth option seems to be viable, while the first can be plain bad when DS won’t let you continue your chosen playstile and in the second example DS is at best a timefiller for cd’s but even than a lackluster that adds nothing, but takes a lot.

I realize I could simply ignore DS when going blood (vampiric) and spite(damage without DS) but can that be the solution to ignore the class mechanic alltogether because I want to play a certain available build. Of that class?

TL;DR
I do not want DS to be stronger or weaker or be taken away, I want it to synergize with all available options.

Foosnark.1784:

I don’t think DS has issues with the number of traits that buff it, so much as it has a few issues with things that don’t work with it.

My sentiments exactly. We need to recuce the things that are limited by DS. I think condition removal and healing are the most important ones.

I love DS and miss it too much when I play other classes, so I am always on my necro despite having multiple 80s. I think proper DS use is half of what makes a necro player good and that the mechanic is only as weak as the spec/player except in weird PVE situations that shouldn’t exist or huge WvW zergs.

Derren.8724:

nekretaal.6485:

No ability in the game should require more than two traits to max.

So, you are on to something with your critique. The more traits that can improve Deathshroud, the weaker the base Deathshroud must be balanced at.

Almost every Profession mechanic or suite of utilities (signets/shouts/minions/etc) Has more than two traits to improve them, for every profession. It’s part of what allows you to make a ‘minion build’ as a Necro or a ‘Shout build’ as a Guardian.

It’s funny that you mention Guardian shouts, because a Guardian has exactly 2 traits that improve shouts. One trait reduces shout recharge and a grandmaster trait that converts conditions.

Consequently untraited Huardian shouts === Good.

Necromancer Death Shroud?

Twelve traits. There are twelve traits that affect death shroud. Conesquently, untraited Death shroud == Bad. Necromancer traits Death shroud for retaliation, fury, toughness, condition removal, health regeneration, a heal, condition drawing, lower lifeforce degen, speed, recharge, stability, or critical chance.

Since you can make it good, the default is bad.

Want might, piercing, or burn on you DS#1. three more traits. Want utility on your #2 or team support on your #4? Another trait each. Want your #3 to last not pathetically short and actually do damage? 2 more traits.

19 traits to get full use out of Deathshroud.. Of course, you only get 14 total traits. That you can build Deathshroud different ways is possibly interesting, but it means that the base is weak, and that you can’t do anything else after you have built your shroud. In contrast, that guardian doesn’t even need to take any traits to get his shouts working, and can max them with 2 traits, enough leftover traits to spec in whatever.

I think DS is amazeballs… Untraited sure it sucks but it gets really great even with a couple of traits even if you don’t actually camp DS til it runs out… I’m thinking condi necro running weakening shroud for one…. DS really is one of the better mechanics for classes now that it was fixed. I remember it used to drain much faster than intended.

nekretaal.6485:

Derren.8724:

nekretaal.6485:

No ability in the game should require more than two traits to max.

So, you are on to something with your critique. The more traits that can improve Deathshroud, the weaker the base Deathshroud must be balanced at.

Almost every Profession mechanic or suite of utilities (signets/shouts/minions/etc) Has more than two traits to improve them, for every profession. It’s part of what allows you to make a ‘minion build’ as a Necro or a ‘Shout build’ as a Guardian.

It’s funny that you mention Guardian shouts, because a Guardian has exactly 2 traits that improve shouts. One trait reduces shout recharge and a grandmaster trait that converts conditions.

Consequently untraited Huardian shouts === Good.

Necromancer Death Shroud?

Twelve traits. There are twelve traits that affect death shroud. Conesquently, untraited Death shroud == Bad. Necromancer traits Death shroud for retaliation, fury, toughness, condition removal, health regeneration, a heal, condition drawing, lower lifeforce degen, speed, recharge, stability, or critical chance.

Since you can make it good, the default is bad.

Want might, piercing, or burn on you DS#1. three more traits. Want utility on your #2 or team support on your #4? Another trait each. Want your #3 to last not pathetically short and actually do damage? 2 more traits.

19 traits to get full use out of Deathshroud.. Of course, you only get 14 total traits. That you can build Deathshroud different ways is possibly interesting, but it means that the base is weak, and that you can’t do anything else after you have built your shroud. In contrast, that guardian doesn’t even need to take any traits to get his shouts working, and can max them with 2 traits, enough leftover traits to spec in whatever.

Lol… yes and meanwhile the guardians “mechanic” virtues are just as spread out and odd as deathshroud traits. If we are going to talk about class mechanics lets keep it specifically at class mechanics.
Virtues, Attunements, Adrenaline, Toolbelt, Shatter, Deathshroud, Pets, Steal/Initiative.

jportell.2197:

… yes and meanwhile the guardians “mechanic” virtues are just as spread out and odd as deathshroud traits. If we are going to talk about class mechanics lets keep it specifically at class mechanics.
Virtues, Attunements, Adrenaline, Toolbelt, Shatter, Deathshroud, Pets, Steal/Initiative.

True enough, this threat was meant to be about the class “mechanic”. When you look at all the mechanics you have the following:

Virtues: Passive and active these are always helping the guarding. If untraited they are fairly weak, but whatever build you are running, it is always a bonus to have/use these.

Attunements: This is deeply tied in the playstyle of the elementalist and it is more or less impossible to play successfully without this mechanic. But even untraited, you make good use of the mechanic and being able to switch is always a bonus, as you have 15 more cd’s than other classes at hand. Ignoring this mechanic is not helping you in any build and always a bonus to your playstyle.

Adrenaline: While fairly simple, the bonus skill is mostly a nice addition to your reportoire and some skills are tied to adrenaline level for more effect. Not using the skill can therefore still be of virtue to the class, while the active part is mostly always a nice addition whatever build you are running.

Toolbet: Actually I do not have enough experience with the engineers class mechanic to really say it’s working passively and actively even untraited, but the few hours I used it, it seemed to always give you an edge in battle or at least options. Still, no analysis about this.

Pets: Even untraited, pets do some damage (or at least are supposed to) and give a access to some buff/debuff via F2. This mechanic seems rather uninspired but still works in all builds and is always of some worth. Not evaluating the actual Ai or whatever else makes pets fail.

Steal/Initiative: While Steal is relatively unspectacular if untraited, especially if one plays ranged, the initiative is pretty nice and as deeply tied into the thief as attunements on elementalists. It is impossible to ignore this mechanic and even untraited, it is tied into every playstyle.

Shatter: This is the only mechanic that seems to be in the same situation as DS. If you are playing high damage phantasms, without traiting in shatter skills, the shatter will actually destry your build and make you more vulnerable. I think we have the same problem here, a very specialized class mechanic that is just as dificult to synergize with all different builds available to the profession.

Some builds will simply not profit from the class mechanic, while others even loose viability if the class mechanic is used (worst case). This should never be the case, but actually is for DS and also to some degree the Mesmer. If on the other side some builds make more use than others of the class mechanic, this would be completely ok, as these builds will also invest more heaviliy in class mechanic traits and therefore loose effectivity on some utility or weapons.

sternenstaub.8763:

Some builds will simply not profit from the class mechanic, while others even loose viability if the class mechanic is used (worst case). This should never be the case, but actually is for DS and also to some degree the Mesmer. If on the other side some builds make more use than others of the class mechanic, this would be completely ok, as these builds will also invest more heaviliy in class mechanic traits and therefore loose effectivity on some utility or weapons.

at the very least, completely untraited death shroud is:
-a free meat shield to absorb some crap being thrown at you
-a free instant interrupt every 20 secs. (dont tell me youre losing anything from double tapping death shroud
dark path and tainted shackles are also pretty good (but maybe situational) skills for every build

i dont understand how having all this free stuff could possibly hurt you.

if you lose viability when using our class mechanic, then youre not using it correctly (lets say youre playing a condi build and sit in death shroud for no apparent reason). but thats your own fault then, not the death shroud’s.
timing is important and that goes for pretty much every class mechanic in every build, not just necro’s DS: use it at the wrong time and you may be screwed.

RashanDale.3609:

at the very least, completely untraited death shroud is:
-a free meat shield to absorb some crap being thrown at you
-a free instant interrupt every 20 secs. (dont tell me youre losing anything from double tapping death shroud
dark path and tainted shackles are also pretty good (but maybe situational) skills for every build

i dont understand how having all this free stuff could possibly hurt you.

if you lose viability when using our class mechanic, then youre not using it correctly (lets say youre playing a condi build and sit in death shroud for no apparent reason). but thats your own fault then, not the death shroud’s.
timing is important and that goes for pretty much every class mechanic in every build, not just necro’s DS: use it at the wrong time and you may be screwed.

Things like vampiric, full of life, Parasitic bond, vampiric master, vampiric precision are blocked during death shroud.

I play quite a few classes and to be honest it’s just how it is with the major special mechanic of the class. Mesmer has tons of shatter traits/boni. Ranger has a lot of pet-related traits. Guardian has many virtue traits. And so on.

I think it is only a concern when individual attacks has multiple traits associated with it. I think the ranger longbow is the best example, it has like 5 traits or something so if you compare it with a weapon that works well without traits (sword) it just seems cumbersome design. I’m not sure if Necro has anything like this, it’s usually just 2-3 traits.

I personally really like DS. To me, Necro is one of the best overall class designs (disregarding bugs) a-net has accomplished; however, some individual things are still off of course. For example I agree that DS should be designed around the chance of life steal, since it -is- a core mechanic used by all Necros in some form (be it defense or nuking), and one of the traitlines is dedicated to leech, and thus slightly devalued by DS’ rules.

Tim.6450:

RashanDale.3609:

at the very least, completely untraited death shroud is:
-a free meat shield to absorb some crap being thrown at you
-a free instant interrupt every 20 secs. (dont tell me youre losing anything from double tapping death shroud
dark path and tainted shackles are also pretty good (but maybe situational) skills for every build

i dont understand how having all this free stuff could possibly hurt you.

if you lose viability when using our class mechanic, then youre not using it correctly (lets say youre playing a condi build and sit in death shroud for no apparent reason). but thats your own fault then, not the death shroud’s.
timing is important and that goes for pretty much every class mechanic in every build, not just necro’s DS: use it at the wrong time and you may be screwed.

Things like vampiric, full of life, Parasitic bond, vampiric master, vampiric precision are blocked during death shroud.

As unfortunate as that may sound, just because you cannot regen your health while in DS doesn’t mean you can’t use it to tactically buy time for a heal, or to pad your CDs after using a heal and floating your health to full, etc.

Out of curiosity, if you run a Vamp build, how successful do you find it in your game mode of choice? I’m interested in seeing how effective people feel they are while still asking for buffs like allowing healing effects through DS. I’m not saying you are arguing this point in your post, Tim, but I often think that people ask for changes like siphons through DS to make their life easier. Easier isn’t always better/more balanced, though.

Amethyst Lure.5624:

I think it is only a concern when individual attacks has multiple traits associated with it. I think the ranger longbow is the best example, it has like 5 traits or something so if you compare it with a weapon that works well without traits (sword) it just seems cumbersome design. I’m not sure if Necro has anything like this, it’s usually just 2-3 traits.

Staff. Slightly mitigated by the fact one of the four traits sucks horridly, so it’s never taken (Chill of Death is always better than Spiteful Marks).

I play siphon MM with a crapton of heals. My build would be stupidly broken if I got healing of any kind through DS. I think it should be a GM Blood Magic trait, along with making the rest of the non MM siphons worthwhile.

It is kind of poorly designed but I still enjoy it very much. As a conditionmancer I don’t get a whole lot of utility out of it but the longer you play a Necromancer the more you learn neat little tricks.
Being a conditionmancer, I’m traited heavily in to Curses. One of the minor’s being Furious Demise which grants me Fury on entering DS. I’m also traited to cast Enfeeble when entering DS, which means when near my enemy I’ll quickly bounce in and out of DS for AOE bleed/weakness as well as Fury to proc more bleeds with my Barbed Precision and Sigil Of Earth.
This is just an example mind you, but I’m just saying that although yes, if untraited to specifically improve the function of DS, it’s not very effective, you can still use the benefits DS gives instead of using DS itself.
… This makes more sense in my head than it does on paper. Anyway it’s like saying; a butterknife might not seem dangerous because it’s not sharp, but in the right hands it can still kill someone.

Tim.6450:

Things like vampiric, full of life, Parasitic bond, vampiric master, vampiric precision are blocked during death shroud.

True, but you dont lose that much when you hop into DS just to cast one or two skills. And blocking large amounts of damage for a moment is also better than trying to stay out leech a little bit.
Again, a matter of timing.
(and to be fair, only the heal-portion of the lifesteal is blocked, if i remember it correctly)

i still think lifesteal of all kinds should work in DS. not because i think the difference would be that big, but because it feels really clunky and ugly the way it is now.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

It is kind of poorly designed but I still enjoy it very much. As a conditionmancer I don’t get a whole lot of utility out of it but the longer you play a Necromancer the more you learn neat little tricks.
Being a conditionmancer, I’m traited heavily in to Curses. One of the minor’s being Furious Demise which grants me Fury on entering DS. I’m also traited to cast Enfeeble when entering DS, which means when near my enemy I’ll quickly bounce in and out of DS for AOE bleed/weakness as well as Fury to proc more bleeds with my Barbed Precision and Sigil Of Earth.
This is just an example mind you, but I’m just saying that although yes, if untraited to specifically improve the function of DS, it’s not very effective, you can still use the benefits DS gives instead of using DS itself.
… This makes more sense in my head than it does on paper. Anyway it’s like saying; a butterknife might not seem dangerous because it’s not sharp, but in the right hands it can still kill someone.

Completely correct what you are saying.

But when you look from a design point, it’s rather obvious that the gained fury was added to DS to make DS viable for a conditionmancer (among other things). This is a gimmick to make the class mechanic viable for your certain build. The mechanic was just ill received and enhanced with gimmicky tricks to make it worthwhile for other builds. This leads to a very fragile Necromancer as a change in one trait/skill will lead to a lot of effects for other builds as well and thus making balancing even harder.

If vampiric would work through DS it might be super op, or not. If vampiric would not trigger of #4, or just the first time of the channel, it would still be ok. The attack speed of #1 is to slow to make a damage of ~50 points and a ~45 points heal every second count. Even when it pierces at a maximum of 5 enemies. BTW, this would be nearly the same as attacking with a Staff with vampiric.But that is an issue for the balancing team and could be solved by halfing the gained health and convert it to Life Force:) The design of the class mechanic in itself still has very little synergy with a lot of builds of the necromancer in general and needs to be enhanced via gimmicky traits to actually produce any synergy at all.

The problem is, that these gimmicks will always render some builds very strong, while others cannot be pushed to the same level, as the new gimick for DS will make existing builds even stronger. That is due to the effect, that the build defining skills are taken away or negated by DS, but can still be effectively used by a complete DS traited Necromancer. Therefore, you cannot increase the effect of these skills without making them worthless for other builds or braking the class at a whole.

The “easy” solution would be to make DS just a weapon swap + the extra healthbar as a shield while healing, utility skills, traits etc still work completely normal. This would make the Necromancer in it’s current form completely op and broken. ANET would have to design some new traits etc. and weaken other traits, but in the long run this will make balancing the necromancer so much easier and gives more options for synergetic traits that don’t break some builds completely.

Another option would be to add secondary and maybe tertiary skills (F2/F3) to the necromancer to use our class energy (Life Force) for different purposes that synergize better with certain builds and thus making DS just a buildchoice for the immortal god of death.

sternenstaub.8763:

Another option would be to add secondary and maybe tertiary skills (F2/F3) to the necromancer to use our class energy (Life Force) for different purposes that synergize better with certain builds and thus making DS just a buildchoice for the immortal god of death.

Interesting idea. What if we were able to use our LF as an offensive mechanism while not in Death Shroud. Such as being able to cast Doom or Life Transfer with F2 or F3 while not actually in the Shroud. Casting Doom would drain a percentage of our LF while Life Transfer would refill it. Meaning we could choose to refill a portion our LF bar before entering Death Shroud or we could choose to lose a portion of it. I think it would add an interesting element of utility to our otherwise clunky class mechanic.
Or to have it function better with other builds, maybe we could have a few traits that allow us to actually choose what attacks we’ll have available to us when using DS. Like being able to trait for having Doom or replacing it with something else that might better benefit your build.

Idk, just brainstorming :P. But anyway as I’d said before I still enjoy Death Shroud despite it being a bit difficult to work with at times. I really hate using it as a method of turtling but when things get hot it’s a life saver. Being able to hop in to DS when you have 10% of your health left but a full bar of LF can be game-changing. It’s like having a really long block, lol.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Out of curiosity, if you run a Vamp build, how successful do you find it in your game mode of choice? I’m interested in seeing how effective people feel they are while still asking for buffs like allowing healing effects through DS. I’m not saying you are arguing this point in your post, Tim, but I often think that people ask for changes like siphons through DS to make their life easier. Easier isn’t always better/more balanced, though.

In PvE it’s quite useless , I had a moment where I ran 0/30/20/20/0 with 4 minions and conditions.The siphons bareley defended against me something noteworthy, the perma cripple and ditraction from the minions were more imporatant.

RashanDale.3609:

Tim.6450:

Things like vampiric, full of life, Parasitic bond, vampiric master, vampiric precision are blocked during death shroud.

True, but you dont lose that much when you hop into DS just to cast one or two skills. And blocking large amounts of damage for a moment is also better than trying to stay out leech a little bit.
Again, a matter of timing.
(and to be fair, only the heal-portion of the lifesteal is blocked, if i remember it correctly)

i still think lifesteal of all kinds should work in DS. not because i think the difference would be that big, but because it feels really clunky and ugly the way it is now.

what about parastitic bond, here we are talking about 1K (5% of our health)? Also I haven’t even started on heals from allies.

sternenstaub.8763:

Hi guys,

did you all just give up on DS changes or are you satisfied the way it works? I love the Necromancer and think it’s the most versatile, fun class in the game but the class defining system (DS) still is badly designed. This is mostly for PvE.

All calsses have some mechanic that works untraited and gives you at least nice benefits or options however you play. The only other class that comes close to us is the thief steal in PvE if untraited.
Deathshroud requires you for PvE to be traited to make it even viable. If untraited it’s just a meatshield and you have most likely all other traits in stuff for your utilites and weapons, which are unusable. Currently I play a lot of Blood for fun and just can’t profit from vampiric while in DS. If I go full power I still have to trait stuff in DS to make it worthwhile, while actually I would prefer to keep my weapons and just ignore DS completely as it gives me no edge/utility or what so ever if I choose to trait differently. No other class has a restriction where the class mechanic negates a whole bunch of their passive abilities like the life siphon or utilities.

If untraited:

In PvP it is okayish and gives a few more seconds of life so that maybe some cd’s come off again and of course the fear, while the damage is not worth it. But if you are lucky you get loaded with conditions that kill you the second you are out of DS, because you do not have a lot against conditions in DS, while the necromancer should be one of the top classes against conditions. Underwater this is another story with life blast transferring conditions.

In WvW it is more or less the same.

In PvE DS is simply meaningless if untraited. You will do most likely no damage, maybe just using Life Transfer for a short AoE burst as we have nothing else of the sort in our reportoire. The meatshield is seldom required for me and it feels kind of stupid having a class mechanic that I won’t use ever, as it strips me of the skills I have traited and actually want to use.

If you compare it to other classes:
Mesmer: Killing all your clones for an effect. Also somehow discussable in PvE, but you can use it without drawbacks for a dmg burst in PvE and regain the clones fast.
Guardian: Giving passive and active boons. This meachanic is always viable.
Thief: Steal and Item + Teleport. The item you steal in PvE might not make any sense and maybe you do not want to getin melee range. Also very bad for PvE in some situations and stays unused if untraited.
Elementalist: Elemental switch. Well, I like the idea and it is a great mechanic and used always.
Warrior: Damage burst or utility depending on weapon. Not very interesting as mechanic but always viable for an extra burst or other stuff.
Ranger: Pet. Is always there, it is not just the F2. Extra damage and no time where you would just not use the pet at all.
Engeneer: Switches to other kit’s for more utility. Interesting mechanic and always usable without drawbacks as you still have your utility skills.

Of course there are drawbacks to some class mechanis as well, like using your main weapon but these are drawbacks, as the class mechanic gives you a real edge.

So, please Dev’s be creative and think of a way to make DS more attractive even if untraited or to use our gained Life Force in another way (a second option) that actually increases the abilites of the class instead of stripping us of our preferred way to play. It feels like I have to trait two classes and balance them in the middle to make them useful.

Edit:
Changed topic from : “DS is a bad mechanic”
to a more neutral one: “DS and build synergy discussion”

I completely disagree.
1. I main elementalist and atunement swap is basically a glorified weapon swap. If you don’t trait for it there are no benefits whatsoever.
2. My secondary is engineer, their class mechanic ‘toolbelt’ is AMAZING! basically it gives you 4 extra skills which are most of the time all very usefull.
3. Necromancer. Deathshroud is my build. I’m in Deathshroud 80% of the time during fights and while in deathshroud you can’t get downed or killed unless you use up all your life force. Plus life force can go back to 100% in a matter of seconds basically healing you for an aditional 16000 hp…. Add to that a gap closer, aoe skill that when traited can proc a ton of on crit effects. Life Blast with the right traits again can do 2-4k dmg, pierce, give might, give vulnerability and it can burn y’r enemy for 4 seconds…
DS works with condi builds, DS works for tanky builds, DS works for Zerker Builds, DS works for minions builds.. Quite frankly the only reason the necro has so many viable builds is because of Death shroud… It gives every class an extra meat shield. Some breathing time, gap closer, aoe-heals etc. Sure you have to trait for it but why wouldn’t you want to?

I dont even like ds… i only use it when i see big hitters coming and a buffer to wait on wOb. Cooldown… and fear in wvw to res my homies but besides that i dont even like it at all… wish we had a choice of a diffrent f1.

alamore.1974:

I dont even like ds… i only use it when i see big hitters coming and a buffer to wait on wOb. Cooldown… and fear in wvw to res my homies but besides that i dont even like it at all… wish we had a choice of a diffrent f1.

Whereas I’d gladly take DS — even untraited — on my Mesmer in place of Shatter, or on a Ranger in place of pets, or on a Thief in place of Steal.

Foosnark.1784:

alamore.1974:

I dont even like ds… i only use it when i see big hitters coming and a buffer to wait on wOb. Cooldown… and fear in wvw to res my homies but besides that i dont even like it at all… wish we had a choice of a diffrent f1.

Whereas I’d gladly take DS — even untraited — on my Mesmer in place of Shatter, or on a Ranger in place of pets, or on a Thief in place of Steal.

Yeah, but than you have to sacrifice also all your movement, imunities, stability, vigors, teleports, long casting times on everything, …. for it in exchange ….. most ppl forget.
(not saying ds is bad … just geting the facts together)

alamore.1974:

I dont even like ds… i only use it when i see big hitters coming and a buffer to wait on wOb. Cooldown… and fear in wvw to res my homies but besides that i dont even like it at all… wish we had a choice of a diffrent f1.

1. Use DS as a life shield while you rush in and place wells in a WvW group. Great way to disperse a zerg and if you play properly you can escape safely.

2. Transfusion (Blood) makes Life Transfer an incredibly powerful skill, being a strong AoE attack and heal. This can win groups fights in of itself.

3. Life Blast is one of our highest single-target damage skills. I can crit 4-5k, with a 6 second burn. 3 quick blasts literally burn the foe down.

I never said its not good.
But being the main necro niche i dont really care for it.
Id rather a choice to use it or something else.

After reading all posts and opinions how about following proposal (not really new but still):

Make DS a weapon switch using the runes of your currently equipped weapon, while not giving a new “on switch” boost but keeping effects on hit etc.
Also give all DS skills a basic damage modifier like every weapon has and their respective skills have. As DS is a two handed weapon (form) give it the basic damage of our spear. This will make DS independent from the current damage modifier of our weapon and will balance damage in DS.
While in DS, the stats of your equipped weapon will still be the stats that are added to your total attribute count. That way condition damage, defensive, healing, or power etc. are still depending on your currently equipped weapon before you entered DS.

Secondly, all equipped Heals, utility and elite are usable in DS. When using a form changing Elite skill, DS is being ended.
When you receive healing in DS, that healing is converted to Life Force 1:2. If the Grandmaster for regeneration is enabled, you receive full healing from all origins instead of Life Force.

As this change would make DS most likely too strong but actually worthy of a practitioner of the dark arts you will want to change it sigh. Play with the basic damage of LifeBlast (btw. make it the same as underwater LB) etc. Also, reduce maximum Life Force to around 1/2 of current maximum number value. This will ensure a smaller shield (due to having access to utility and gaining heal increases this shield), while still giving the DPS DS the same viability it had before, as Life Force degenerates via a % value and is received the same way. Now you would even be able to regenerate Life Force while in DS via heals and regeneration of your allies.
There are a lot more stuff that might be OP in relation to other classes, but this change would ultimately make DS viable in every possible iteration without breaking any build synergy I can think of. And this would even encourage people to play more heal supportive, which is clearly encouraged with our class as you can see in the amount of on heal traits.

In an expansion pack (big class feature patch), add one or two new features like F2 and F3 which use Life Force for something else then Deathshroud. This would just mess with a few minor traits that could also be “this in DS or that if F2-Ability”. New traits would be coming with this update anyway to make the new stuff viable and more versatile.

Lol healing giving life force. I would use ds then make it more viable for me.
I am glad to see some one actually comming up with ideas,