Guild Wars 2

After getting my incinerator, I wanted to change into a dagger build.

This is my build

It is a DS flick on/off build. Currently using it for PvE. Haven’t done much WvW lately, so can’t say how well it performs there.

Stuff I’m considering:
~Changing my orbs into Eagle runes for increased precision and damage at health < 50%, but don’t know if 5% increased damage is better than 120 power which i lose from the orbs.
~Changing the build into a more signet oriented.

Let me know what you think.

Scholar runes > ruby orbs > eagle runes.

Id suggest swapping spectral walk for signet of spite. Only take walk when you absolutely need the stunbreak. Its better than the standard 30/10/0/0/30. But 30/25/0/0/15 still beats them both. If your groups providing subpar might then you can swap WoC for BiP. Id also suggest having warhorn instead of focus. Locust swarm is a dps monster. You could scrap the staff and have warhorn focus so your just swapping offhands.

Focus on a DS build because the Lifeblast effects with the incinerator are awesome.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Focus on a DS build because the Lifeblast effects with the incinerator are awesome.

And do kitten awful dps.

spoj.9672:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Focus on a DS build because the Lifeblast effects with the incinerator are awesome.

And do kitten awful dps.

My Lifeblast does 6-8k,that isn’t to bad DPS IMO.

Banjal.7328:

spoj.9672:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Focus on a DS build because the Lifeblast effects with the incinerator are awesome.

And do kitten awful dps.

My Lifeblast does 6-8k,that isn’t to bad DPS IMO.

Its good damage but bad dps.

There is a difference between damage (DMG, ie something does 8k DMG)and damage per second (DPS, ie something does 8k dps every second)

DS based builds are very powerful in open world, and are ok in dungeons, if you want a max damage glass cannon based build, dagger is the way to go if you can get past the normal melee limitations (usually done via other people in your group)

Someone somewhere said there is no best build, only best at, dagger is best at organized group play dungeon builds, DS builds are best at individual or pug play, both have merit and both are fine, yet we keep arguing between which is better

If your a competent player dagger is best in pug and solo play aswell. It simply achieves the best dps and so if you can use it to full effectiveness its obviously the best choice.

I love the whole ‘just pick a 30/25/0/0/15 dagger build’ cause it outdpses everything else… I always wonder: so in any encounter with more than 1 mob (the more the better this gets), you drop Well of Suffering, Locust Swarm and Life Transfer then go cry in a corner for the next 30-40 seconds or what exactly? And guess what, lifeblast outdpses dagger the moment you hit more than one mob with it…

Thing is, it’s not a dagger OR axe-DS thing. It’s very easy to combine both and pick whatever is more useful in the current situation. That brings us to the following: there are no traits that directly increase dagger damage, everything boils down to increasing your effective power. Conversely, DS has 5 traits that either increase its ability to deal damage. A 30/10/0/0/30 build picks up all 5, a 30/25/0/0/15 build only has access to 3 of them.

So the question is then, how much of an effective power increase is 30/25/0/0/15 really over 30/10/0/0/30. Assuming 4 conditions on the target and no team support, I calculate about an 8% difference in favor of 30/25/0/0/15. But simply add 100% fury from your team and it’s down to 2%… In DS, it’s pretty much the other way around: 17% in favor of 30/10/0/0/30 without team, going down steeply with additional team support.

So, all in all it really boils down to a trade-off between a few % more single target vs a few % more aoe, with the difference going down to pretty much negligible values the more team support you have…

The damage with axe and lifeblasts are still good in 30/25/0/0/5. The builds were discussed and compared on the dungeon forums recently. 3 power builds were considered. 30/25/0/0/15 had the highest effective power at about 9k. While the other 2 were below. The 30/10/0/0/30 was considered the worst. Whereas 15/25/0/0/30 is very close to 9k so long as strength of undeath actually gives a 5% damage boost instead of 90 power (heard it was bugged, may have been stealth fixed).

It doesnt matter what power build you run, all 3 are going to have burst aoe and then nothing for 30-40 seconds.

If I actually go for 30/25/0/0/15, I won’t have precision issues, then scholar runes would be best.

Thanks for the suggestions, I’ll try this build. Already have a warhorn, so no problem there, and I usually do swap WoC to other stuff depending on the situation.

Edit: Any specific choice of traits?

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIhhu1IjW6elmxGDfCA6Ru46cMjjXm+w6A-jAyAYrBRTQgpMgUBgkXR0YLuFRjVXjpcJiqBA-e

The traits in spite and soul reaping are a bit more flexible. So just pick what you feel you want. Curses shouldnt change though.

spoj.9672:

The damage with axe and lifeblasts are still good in 30/25/0/0/5. The builds were discussed and compared on the dungeon forums recently. 3 power builds were considered. 30/25/0/0/15 had the highest effective power at about 9k. While the other 2 were below. The 30/10/0/0/30 was considered the worst. Whereas 15/25/0/0/30 is very close to 9k so long as strength of undeath actually gives a 5% damage boost instead of 90 power (heard it was bugged, may have been stealth fixed).

It doesnt matter what power build you run, all 3 are going to have burst aoe and then nothing for 30-40 seconds.

That’s only from PvE perspective though, and the OP mentions possibly doing some WvW as well. For PvP of any kind I’d never give up my 30/10/0/0/30 Deathly Perception build.

First of all, that’s a guaranteed crit from life blast. Damage being reliable is a big deal.

Secondly, I’m also fairly sure it boosts the AoE burst further than anything else with the guaranteed crits. Haven’t actually tested this though, so I could be wrong.

And finally, there’s simply no way to always be in dagger range, even if we ignore the fact builds like these are rather squishy. Use the dagger when you can, life blast when you can’t.

Yesterday, I spent the whole day trying the 30/25/0/0/15 build in dungeons.

Cons:
1- I feel squishier.
2- I lost a big chunk of critical damage from 93% down to 77%. If I use scholar runes, it will even go down 74%.
3- I lost a 5% increased damage (SR25)
4- Lost ability to enter DS every 8 seconds. Thus losing retaliation and fury uptime.
5- Lost DS pool size.

Pros:
1- I gained some precision to break the 50%.
2- Gained 2% increased damage per condition on foe. On average the enemy has 3-4 conditions. That’s 8% damage increase.
3- Able to trait Warhorn.

Not sure if I missed anything, but can’t say if the 30/25/0/0/15 beats my 30/15/0/0/25.

As for 30/10/0/0/30. I use that in sPvP, and used that for a long time with Axe/Focus. However, for a dagger build, outside DS, without fury, makes it annoying. I have yet to try it with dagger.

You should have 93% crit damage. Atleast thats what I have. Full ascended though. People mentioned in another thread that strength of undeath is bugged so its not 5%, its flat power. Target the weak is always stronger (you can maintain 3 condis on your own + more) and seeing as you arent using DS to dps you need higher precision to boost your dps. Retal isnt gonna help much unless fighting trash in pve and in most situations you should be getting fury from teammates aswell. So perma fury is very easy to maintain.

Trust me, try that build out in a decent group with a warrior or two and you will see how good it is.

spoj.9672:

You should have 93% crit damage. Atleast thats what I have. Full ascended though. People mentioned in another thread that strength of undeath is bugged so its not 5%, its flat power. Target the weak is always stronger (you can maintain 3 condis on your own + more) and seeing as you arent using DS to dps you need higher precision to boost your dps. Retal isnt gonna help much unless fighting trash in pve and in most situations you should be getting fury from teammates aswell. So perma fury is very easy to maintain.

Trust me, try that build out in a decent group with a warrior or two and you will see how good it is.

You might have missed my gear setup, but I have Knight armor, with zerker the rest. Since I recently got Incinerator which is Soldier stats, I switched out my helmet to berzerker from Knight to compensate a little. So, I won’t actually have 93% with this build unless I switch out the rest of my gear to Berzerker, however I don’t want to be a full glass cannon, I hate it. Just the idea of dropping in one hit isn’t fun. Arah won’t be easy as full berzerker Necromancer.

Another thing is, I don’t like to be too group-reliant. I understand having a warrior in group would give me good might + fury uptime, but there are many times when there isn’t a warrior around. Don’t want to drag myself back unless I have a certain group setup. I did try your build all day yesterday, sometimes even had warriors with me. It is a solid damage build.

I do have a question however, do you use the signet of spite for the increased damage, or dps relying on the passive?

I use it for the passive. And im going to be trying a solo arah p2 with that build soon. Need to get some more practise on lupi with warrior first though.

spoj.9672:

I use it for the passive. And im going to be trying a solo arah p2 with that build soon. Need to get some more practise on lupi with warrior first though.

Lol, good luck with that. At least with a warrior they have off hand block, Endure pain, and stamina regeneration signet. We, as necromancers, got no block, no vigor, and no invulnerability. So, not sure if that’s possible.

For the warrior i only use dolyak signet for stability. Have 1 energy sigil, sword block and whirlwind attack. Necro should be able to get away with just spectral walk and an energy sigil. Have plague for emergency stability. Also got dark path. Think the hardest phase will be phase 1. Might need 2 energy sigils on necro but meh.

Azraeel.1238:

Yesterday, I spent the whole day trying the 30/25/0/0/15 build in dungeons.

Cons:
1- I feel squishier.
2- I lost a big chunk of critical damage from 93% down to 77%. If I use scholar runes, it will even go down 74%.
3- I lost a 5% increased damage (SR25)
4- Lost ability to enter DS every 8 seconds. Thus losing retaliation and fury uptime.
5- Lost DS pool size.

Pros:
1- I gained some precision to break the 50%.
2- Gained 2% increased damage per condition on foe. On average the enemy has 3-4 conditions. That’s 8% damage increase.
3- Able to trait Warhorn.

Not sure if I missed anything, but can’t say if the 30/25/0/0/15 beats my 30/15/0/0/25.

As for 30/10/0/0/30. I use that in sPvP, and used that for a long time with Axe/Focus. However, for a dagger build, outside DS, without fury, makes it annoying. I have yet to try it with dagger.

Not sure how come u lost 15% crit damage by dropping 10 points from sr because 10 points =10% crit damage. I can’t understand why u feel squishier. Both built looks the same to me unless u stay in ds for prolonged periods or u use ds to absorb damage.

spoj.9672:

Banjal.7328:

spoj.9672:

Kiriakulos.1690:

Focus on a DS build because the Lifeblast effects with the incinerator are awesome.

And do kitten awful dps.

My Lifeblast does 6-8k,that isn’t to bad DPS IMO.

Its good damage but bad dps.

I’ve actually run the time-to-death numbers for similar builds on practice golems. DS1 is only sliiightly slower than Dagger 1 at 0-600, and not actually all that much slower at 601-1200. What this means is, you generally want to use your dagger for single-targets, but DS1 blows it out of the water if you take Unyeilding Blast and hit at least 2 targets, which isn’t difficult to do with proper positioning. I suspect DS1 beats it even against one target if it saves you having to dodge even once but that gets harder to calculate.

It doesnt take into account locust swarm dps either. Which is a big reason why 30/25/0/0/15 is so good. Banshees wail is such a strong trait.

spoj.9672:

It doesnt take into account locust swarm dps either.

are you trying to say you are not able to use locust swarm and then go into DS for the same dps it would give you with dagger?

No. You wont have the same uptime due to staying in DS and not having the trait. I doubt he calculated locust dps on either build.

spoj.9672:

No. You wont have the same uptime due to staying in DS and not having the trait. I doubt he calculated locust dps on either build.

I think you are overplaying it a bit there buddy, the difference would be very negligible with some practice timing DS and cooldowns.

You dont take banshees wail in a DS build…. Banshees wail decreases the cooldown by 4.5 seconds and adds 4 seconds to the duration.

Ive got to say ive never tried locust swarm before, WOW.
I still like playing a hybrid build, and im toying around with different things, but its pretty baws in a power build.

Im not quite comfy enough with all the different bosses yet to run dagger all the time, and axe feels like it fits better in a hybrid build anyway, but it is fun

Sutcliffe.5491:

Azraeel.1238:

Yesterday, I spent the whole day trying the 30/25/0/0/15 build in dungeons.

Cons:
1- I feel squishier.
2- I lost a big chunk of critical damage from 93% down to 77%. If I use scholar runes, it will even go down 74%.
3- I lost a 5% increased damage (SR25)
4- Lost ability to enter DS every 8 seconds. Thus losing retaliation and fury uptime.
5- Lost DS pool size.

Pros:
1- I gained some precision to break the 50%.
2- Gained 2% increased damage per condition on foe. On average the enemy has 3-4 conditions. That’s 8% damage increase.
3- Able to trait Warhorn.

Not sure if I missed anything, but can’t say if the 30/25/0/0/15 beats my 30/15/0/0/25.

As for 30/10/0/0/30. I use that in sPvP, and used that for a long time with Axe/Focus. However, for a dagger build, outside DS, without fury, makes it annoying. I have yet to try it with dagger.

Not sure how come u lost 15% crit damage by dropping 10 points from sr because 10 points =10% crit damage. I can’t understand why u feel squishier. Both built looks the same to me unless u stay in ds for prolonged periods or u use ds to absorb damage.

Yeah sorry, down from 88% not 93%. 93% was my critical damage when i was running 30/10/0/0/30.

As for why do i feel squishier, I used to run dagger/Focus, the reaper’s touch gives out constant regeneration. Now, I no longer use that because now im using warhorn, and need to keep staff off set in case i need to go ranged.

If u know the encounters well enough for dungeons, u probably dun need to keep staff as off set and just run dagger/warhorn+ focus or u could take dagger/warhorn+ axe/focus(if u really want a range option) instead.

On the chance that u want to range to relieve some pressure, u could just pop into DS and use lifeblast instead and wait for your heal cooldown. This works well for me. Of course this is from my limited experience with necro in dungeons except for arah/fractals. i mainly play a guardian

Sutcliffe.5491:

If u know the encounters well enough for dungeons, u probably dun need to keep staff as off set and just run dagger/warhorn+ focus or u could take dagger/warhorn+ axe/focus(if u really want a range option) instead.

On the chance that u want to range to relieve some pressure, u could just pop into DS and use lifeblast instead and wait for your heal cooldown. This works well for me. Of course this is from my limited experience with necro in dungeons except for arah/fractals. i mainly play a guardian

What you said is true, however, I’m not someone who is picky when it comes to group setup. For example, yesterday I did a dungeon without a guardian, and without a warrior. So I ended up actually taking more than the usual damage, I have over 800 hours on my Necromancer, so I know my DS mechanic. Which reminds me, another key issue that 30/25/0/0/15 is squishier than 30/15/0/0/25 is the fact that you don’t have “Near to Death”. Meaning longer DS cooldown, and not ready when you might need it.

As for the staff, I like it not only for ranged attacks, works well if you are skipping mobs, or want some space from all the mobs heat. #3 + #5 marks gives you a little space, and #4 relieves you off conditions in case your heal is on cooldown. So I like it for the utility.

The best way to improve as a player is to play full melee in zerk gear and learn the encounters and dodges. You shouldnt need DS very often defensively. I just flakitten on cooldown for bonus fury and weakening shroud.

Anyway Im glad you guys are taking a closer look at my build.

Your trait tree has nothing to do with the dagger.

vesta.3170:

Your trait tree has nothing to do with the dagger.

The only tree that has dagger traits is blood magic. And those are awful traits anyway…..

spoj.9672:

vesta.3170:

Your trait tree has nothing to do with the dagger.

The only tree that has dagger traits is blood magic. And those are awful traits anyway…..

I agree with spoj. Unlike Axe, we don’t have any trait that adds damage to daggers specifically. We only have decrease cooldown of dagger skills in the blood trait tree. If you take the dagger by itself, the skills #2 and #3 are only useful in certain situations, not good to spam them. This leaves out the autoattack, which doesn’t have a cooldown obviously. So you would want to make the best out of the autoattack damage, and you can achieve that through Power, precision, and critical damage trait lines. Unless you have survivability issues, then adding points in blood might help, but will drag your dps a lot.

Question:
Sigil of fire or Sigil of force? Anyone knows which one dashes out more dps?

Force is always better than fire for dps.

Fire doesnt crit and force boosts your damage from all sources by 5%. Clear winner.