DISCLAIMER: This is not a request to buff main hand dagger damage whatsoever.
I thoroughly enjoy playing a melee necro, DS is my favourite class mechanic by far and I enjoy playing a melee caster in mmorpg’s. However, spamming 1 is just too dull.
I’d find it far more enjoyable if there was even a fraction more thought involved in which buttons I must press to kill something. Something as simple as (1) scale down dagger 1 damage and increase dagger 2 damage accordingly so that there’s a reason to press something other than auto attack. And/or (2), make dagger 2 hit multiple targets? Of course adjust dagger 1 damage appropriately so there’s no overall damage increase.
Even if the 1st change was implemented it’d be in line with how the axe plays, which to me is more interesting having 2 buttons to press vs just the 1. I feel a small change would make a big difference in appeal of playing necro without their being any sort of real damage buff. Before any of you say “go play axe then”, I prefer to be right up in melee range.
Yes I know there are off hand weapons too which add 1 or maybe even 2 button’s to press but my issue still stands.
I’m curious on the necro community’s thoughts on this? Agree/disagree?
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I don’t get the argument that it’s bad to be using multiple sources of damage on cd. It’s easily what makes ele and engineer such fun classes to play.
Take the thief dagger for example, it’s the enarest thing to ours since it’s the same autoattack, but in between revealed debuffs they cnd>backstab instead of spamming 111111111111 in between focus vulnerability.
I don’t get the argument that it’s bad to be using multiple sources of damage on cd. It’s easily what makes ele and engineer such fun classes to play.
It’s the sort of Purity of Purpose argument, really. For example, on Ele, Air Scepter 2. It’s just a pulse of damage every 10 seconds. Why was that damage not just rolled into the auto attack and something more interesting gets put there? Why would you not spam it?
Basically, having skills that don’t take thought to use are kind of dull and reinforcing the idea that it’s just spamming skills. Mainhand dagger for necros avoids that quite nicely.
It’s not just a pulse of damage. It’s a spike tool for pvp, and it is instant damage that can be delivered with burst and no telegraph and allows you to frontload the damage and immediately switch to another attunement. That air scepter 2 is a core feature of s/f ele burst rotations in pvp.
It’s just how they’ve gone with design they’re trying to fit skills into 3 game types and you’ve seen the disaster that’s just come out of it if they had just designed individual versions for each game type.
I don’t know what the hell you’re doing that you don’t have enough to do. You need to pop locusts, reaper’s touch, well of suffering, blood is power, death shroud, and tainted shackles before you can settle into an autoattack. That seems like enough things to do to me, at that point you probably need to focus on avoiding attacks and timing dodges right. Sure, dagger skills 2 and 3 aren’t useful for PvE but it’s all about the offhand action.
Skill #3 (Immobilize) is pretty great. But Skill #2 (weak channeled heal) is pretty dang useless in my opinion. Where is it useful? I haven’t found its any usefulness in PvE.
I don’t know what the hell you’re doing that you don’t have enough to do. You need to pop locusts, reaper’s touch, well of suffering, blood is power, death shroud, and tainted shackles before you can settle into an autoattack. That seems like enough things to do to me, at that point you probably need to focus on avoiding attacks and timing dodges right. Sure, dagger skills 2 and 3 aren’t useful for PvE but it’s all about the offhand action.
Something as simple as (1) scale down dagger 1 damage and increase dagger 2 damage accordingly so that there’s a reason to press something other than auto attack. And/or (2), make dagger 2 hit multiple targets?
So you want Life Siphon to work like Life Transfer?
Why scale dagger 1 damage? Have you people played other classes, where you actually think necro damage needs to be balanced around instead of just plain buffed?
Dagger one is virtually a much crappier warrior mainhand axe that hits 1 less target and can’t even burst with a skill like eviscerate. I’m not comparing it to thief dagger because despite them being identical weapons in terms of autoattack mechanism and only hitting 2 targets, thief dagger weaving cnd>backstab pulls ahead in single target by such a ridiculous amount.
I get the impression most people don’t seriously toy around with alts in similar gear, because nothing is more depressing than changing from your necro/mesmer with their pitiful autoattacks and lacking burst/cleave, into a thief who’s chaining pistolwhips for 7-8k damage unbuffed or 8k backstabs and 5k CnD’s without might stacks or much vulnerability stacks on the target.
Just switch over to your nearby mainhand axe warrior or thief. Ele is on a league of its own. Hell, even a sword/focus+GS guardian will wake you up to the disparity in numbers.
Mesmer, necro, and ranger need flat out buffs to their weapon coefficients (ranger longbow is fine, rest of the weapons need help). Not compromises.
Skill #3 (Immobilize) is pretty great. But Skill #2 (weak channeled heal) is pretty dang useless in my opinion. Where is it useful? I haven’t found its any usefulness in PvE.
That particular skill isn’t that useful in PvE since PvE is all about killing things ASAP.
However, it is useful in situations in PvP and WvW. The main situation I use it in is when I want to attack the opponent but not be in melee range, or I need to back away for a bit. The way the ability works, you can turn around and run away from an opponent during the channel time, so it’s useful for kiting and dealing damage while healing at the same time.
I think the skills we currently have on dagger can be quite useful. You might not get too much use for the 3rd skill in PvE, but the small heal from the 2nd skill can be very useful in some situations when you need some extra health but heal is on cooldown. I use it a lot when kiting Mai Trin when I pug fractals.
The auto attack is great and the only change I’d wish for that is to make it cleave an extra enemy. I’m all for skill 2 hitting multiple enemies as long as they don’t reduce its effectiveness too much on single targets.
Out of all our weapons dagger is the one I’m the most satisfied with, I’d rather have them give the axe a good rework.
I don’t get the argument that it’s bad to be using multiple sources of damage on cd. It’s easily what makes ele and engineer such fun classes to play.
Take the thief dagger for example, it’s the enarest thing to ours since it’s the same autoattack, but in between revealed debuffs they cnd>backstab instead of spamming 111111111111 in between focus vulnerability.
I don’t know what the hell you’re doing that you don’t have enough to do. You need to pop locusts, reaper’s touch, well of suffering, blood is power, death shroud, and tainted shackles before you can settle into an autoattack. That seems like enough things to do to me, at that point you probably need to focus on avoiding attacks and timing dodges right. Sure, dagger skills 2 and 3 aren’t useful for PvE but it’s all about the offhand action.
I don’t get the argument that it’s bad to be using multiple sources of damage on cd. It’s easily what makes ele and engineer such fun classes to play.
It’s the sort of Purity of Purpose argument, really. For example, on Ele, Air Scepter 2. It’s just a pulse of damage every 10 seconds. Why was that damage not just rolled into the auto attack and something more interesting gets put there? Why would you not spam it?
Basically, having skills that don’t take thought to use are kind of dull and reinforcing the idea that it’s just spamming skills. Mainhand dagger for necros avoids that quite nicely.
My problem with it is that essentially (excluding utility skills) and assuming we’re dealing with a single target, max dmg is to spam 1. I know there’s warhorn 5 and focus 4 but that still leaves 15-20+ seconds of spamming 1 for max dmg in between those CD’s. For me, having dagger 2 do more dps than dagger 1 would make it far more enjoyable to play by me (the player) having to get off a full channel of a 2nd skill to do max dps. This issue is far more prevalent in PVE than PVP as there is less to think about.
Something as simple as (1) scale down dagger 1 damage and increase dagger 2 damage accordingly so that there’s a reason to press something other than auto attack. And/or (2), make dagger 2 hit multiple targets?
So you want Life Siphon to work like Life Transfer?
Possibly yeah. Just something to give it a use besides the couple of ticks you can get off running to target or the very rare occasion you might be kiting with dagger.
All 1 handers are like this (except for thief). Damage on auto. Other skills for utility. For 2 handers you then have some burst skills to make more interesting rotations.
All 1 handers are like this (except for thief). Damage on auto. Other skills for utility. For 2 handers you then have some burst skills to make more interesting rotations.
Mesmer sword auto is about equal dps to blurred frenzy. So ideally you would not cast blurred frenzy until you need to dodge. I should probably correct that to melee 1 handers. Ranged 1 handers dont really follow the rule. I overlooked a load of weapons because i was only thinking of melee. Sorry. ;3
Honestly, the problem is the complexity (or lack thereof) of the rotation. Scepter Eles in all formats have very complex rotations. D/D Ele in PvP has a complex rotation. Rifle Engineer has a complex rotation. D/P Thief in PvP has a complex rotation where it can even stealth itself with a 2 into its own 5. Hell, even GS + A/M Warrior has a reasonably complex rotation. Things like that create a depth of play that is immersive and rewarding when you do it correctly.
The Necromancer power rotations are not complex at all, and that is both the source of a lot of mockery, the reason for such a low skill floor, and the reason it’s just not that much fun. Condition Necromancers at least have pretty fun rotations between Geomancy sigils, Dark Path bursts, and so forth. The S/D component of the rotation is pretty boring, but at least it’s not as bad as D/F + D/W.
PvP power Necromancer rotation relies too heavily on spamming 1 in Dagger, in Death Shroud, and in Lich Form. It’s lazy and too effective for how lazy it is, and is the same reason people hate Turret Engineer. I would much rather we had a more complex rotation for power Necromancers, as that would make playing it feel far more satisfying.
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Different folks different strokes. Elementalists, engineers, and to some extent theives and mesmers all have sort of rotations. If you go into necro wanting to do rotations then your best bet is condi. Power is different there is no rotation timing your skills against what your opponent is doing is far more important.
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Different folks different strokes. Elementalists, engineers, and to some extent theives and mesmers all have sort of rotations. If you go into necro wanting to do rotations then your best bet is condi. Power is different there is no rotation timing your skills against what your opponent is doing is far more important.
This. Especially the last sentence.
I personally think that our autos are the main source of damage so we can manage our positioning and life force.
Different folks different strokes. Elementalists, engineers, and to some extent theives and mesmers all have sort of rotations. If you go into necro wanting to do rotations then your best bet is condi. Power is different there is no rotation timing your skills against what your opponent is doing is far more important.
This. Especially the last sentence.
I personally think that our autos are the main source of damage so we can manage our positioning and life force.
I honestly think this is the biggest culprit of why some people struggle on necro, they keep trying to do some rotation when they should probably just be autoattacking with daggers.
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This is why I hope GS is not just another melee option. It would be better for the class as a whole if our existing axe and dagger issues were resolved, and GS provided some sort or group support.
I honestly think this is the biggest culprit of why some people struggle on necro, they keep trying to do some rotation when they should probably just be autoattacking with daggers.
There is a rotation for a power Necromancer, it’s just not very elaborate is all. When you’re constantly auto-attacking with Daggers and sometimes using DS, that is your rotation. To what you said before, every class in high-end PvP has to time their skills against what the enemy is doing. You can’t just mash buttons ad nauseum; you use your rotations when appropriate. Sometimes the best thing a D/D Ele can do, for instance, is run around auto attacking with Lightning Whip to heal.
Still, none of that says that the power Necromancer shouldn’t get a complex rotation. The only reason we don’t have one is because our alternative power weapons suck at damage, and a huge amount of our damage comes from Life Blast spam. An easy solution to this would be to make the GS have high burst but high cooldowns, so that our rotation would then be from GS into D/W for W5 and D1. They could also address this by making Focus a more attractive power option by improving Spinal Shivers.
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Dagger 2 is used when you want to heal. I’m all for better rotations, but dagger’s design is fine as is, the skills just need small buffs where appropriate to make the better in their intended utility.
I honestly think this is the biggest culprit of why some people struggle on necro, they keep trying to do some rotation when they should probably just be autoattacking with daggers.
There is a rotation for a power Necromancer, it’s just not very elaborate is all. When you’re constantly auto-attacking with Daggers and sometimes using DS, that is your rotation. To what you said before, every class in high-end PvP has to time their skills against what the enemy is doing. You can’t just mash buttons ad nauseum; you use your rotations when appropriate. Sometimes the best thing a D/D Ele can do, for instance, is run around auto attacking with Lightning Whip to heal.
Still, none of that says that the power Necromancer shouldn’t get a complex rotation. The only reason we don’t have one is because our alternative power weapons suck at damage, and a huge amount of our damage comes from Life Blast spam. An easy solution to this would be to make the GS have high burst but high cooldowns, so that our rotation would then be from GS into D/W for W5 and D1. They could also address this by making Focus a more attractive power option by improving Spinal Shivers.
Nope, there is no rotation. There are combos. but no rotation.
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Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I seriously never use the #2 skill in pvp. Whenever I actually do end up pressing it, is when my life force is empty, all other skills and weapon-swap is on CD and the enemy is running away and just out of reach of my autoattack. Which barely ever happens- Am I doing something wrong? Lol
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I seriously never use the #2 skill in pvp. Whenever I actually do end up pressing it, is when my life force is empty, all other skills and weapon-swap is on CD and the enemy is running away and just out of reach of my autoattack. Which barely ever happens- Am I doing something wrong? Lol
Nope that’s pretty much when you use it.
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Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I seriously never use the #2 skill in pvp. Whenever I actually do end up pressing it, is when my life force is empty, all other skills and weapon-swap is on CD and the enemy is running away and just out of reach of my autoattack. Which barely ever happens- Am I doing something wrong? Lol
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I seriously never use the #2 skill in pvp. Whenever I actually do end up pressing it, is when my life force is empty, all other skills and weapon-swap is on CD and the enemy is running away and just out of reach of my autoattack. Which barely ever happens- Am I doing something wrong? Lol
Nope that’s pretty much when you use it.
I use it a lot when I’m trying to fight on point (when death shroud is on cooldown) and I don’t need my staff skills at the moment. My playstyle is more of a “contest the point” one, so topping off health frequently is more important than high damage output. I don’t like swapping to staff unless I need one of those skills simply because Staff is a fairly lousy weapon to sit on for a while.
Life Siphon now is strong enough to act basically as a second Heal skill. If I find I need health, I pop that instead of Consume Conditions, letting me save my actual heal for a buttload of conditions. You don’t use it for damage (unless they are out of range for auto), but rather to save your actual heal.
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
Dark Pact could probably use either a cast time or cooldown reduction, though.
I seriously never use the #2 skill in pvp. Whenever I actually do end up pressing it, is when my life force is empty, all other skills and weapon-swap is on CD and the enemy is running away and just out of reach of my autoattack. Which barely ever happens- Am I doing something wrong? Lol
Nope that’s pretty much when you use it.
I use it a lot when I’m trying to fight on point (when death shroud is on cooldown) and I don’t need my staff skills at the moment. My playstyle is more of a “contest the point” one, so topping off health frequently is more important than high damage output. I don’t like swapping to staff unless I need one of those skills simply because Staff is a fairly lousy weapon to sit on for a while.
Life Siphon now is strong enough to act basically as a second Heal skill. If I find I need health, I pop that instead of Consume Conditions, letting me save my actual heal for a buttload of conditions. You don’t use it for damage (unless they are out of range for auto), but rather to save your actual heal.
I never have any points in blood and my only healing power comes from the Spite minor. I only use it when I’m stuck on dagger and target is out of range of auttos, I’m so glassy attempting to use it as a heal will get me killed, I typically use it to range proc air fire sigils.
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Dagger auto should stay the same. Dagger 2 needs a significant cast time reduction to be strong. 3.5 seconds plus pre cast is absolutely absurd, needs to be 2.5 seconds for the whole thing including pre and after cast. Dagger 3 should get a 3/4 second cast and a 5 seconds shave on the cooldown. Then the weapon would be really versitile.
Necros don’t have reflects, invulns, vigor, blocks,
extra dodges, real stability, mobility skills,
burst skills, sustain, or good support. GG ANET.
Dagger auto should stay the same. Dagger 2 needs a significant cast time reduction to be strong. 3.5 seconds plus pre cast is absolutely absurd, needs to be 2.5 seconds for the whole thing including pre and after cast. Dagger 3 should get a 3/4 second cast and a 5 seconds shave on the cooldown. Then the weapon would be really versitile.
Would be extremely nice… the 2 thing could happen that 3 thing will probably never happen, but if it did I would honestly consider dagger cd reduction trait.
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Oh I do have some sort of overall rotation where I usually start a fight with staff, hit DS, do some damage with those, get out the dagger and build life force back up, then switch to staff for DS damage again. That’s sort of a rotation I suppose, but nothing like what does and some other classes have.
timing your skills against what your opponent is doing is far more important.
ye. the autos are boring, but most of the necros skills are a counter to anothers actions. for example in pvp, focus5 vs war gs5, some soft cc dag2 to kite melee autos, bait dodge by cancel casting/stow weapon to land dag5 dag3 or whatever.
usually if you buff certain skills (channel skills in this instance) then autos will get hit. that isnt fair to the pve crowd. honestly certain pvp situations call for nothing else then auto and if that damage was toned down then, idk. im all for a flat cd reduction, dag2 10sec dag3 20sec, but its not that simple.
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+1 to zapv, the only thing wrong with MH dagger is the ridiculous cast times on 2/3. 3 should be 3/4s, 2 should be 2.5s. Also having a half heal on a tiny CD like dagger 2 is really nice for sustain.
Mesmer sword auto is about equal dps to blurred frenzy. So ideally you would not cast blurred frenzy until you need to dodge. I should probably correct that to melee 1 handers. Ranged 1 handers dont really follow the rule. I overlooked a load of weapons because i was only thinking of melee. Sorry. ;3
Mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy is actually slightly stronger than autoattack dps, so you should cast it on cd but the gains are marginal. Unless we’re talking about mobs who put boons on themselves or the group is not stacking vulnerability well.
timing your skills against what your opponent is doing is far more important.
ye. the autos are boring, but most of the necros skills are a counter to anothers actions. for example in pvp, focus5 vs war gs5, some soft cc dag2 to kite melee autos, bait dodge by cancel casting/stow weapon to land dag5 dag3 or whatever.
usually if you buff certain skills (channel skills in this instance) then autos will get hit. that isnt fair to the pve crowd. honestly certain pvp situations call for nothing else then auto and if that damage was toned down then, idk. im all for a flat cd reduction, dag2 10sec dag3 20sec, but its not that simple.
This I don’t get at all. Why should autos get hit? Did ranger autoattacks get hit when rapid fire was buffed? Did thieves’ sword autos stop critting fro 3-4k when pistolwhip is hitting for 8k+.
I really don’t understand the argument, necros are not on an equal damage footing to other people so it’s not an argument for shifting around damage, it’s an argument for a buff.
Let’s not sugarcoat that, it’s not like power necros are good anywhere besides well bombing in WvW.
You release your locusts, swap to gs and close distance with the mobility skill all greatswords have. Do a gs rotation to hopefully blast firefields and spread tons of vulnerability, and swap back to dagger to dps the enemy down. It’s the mechanic I think would work best.
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
really? i think life siphon could use another skill in its place. Only time i cast it is when closing range in pvp but, then, it only ticks once at best. Useless skill.
You release your locusts, swap to gs and close distance with the mobility skill all greatswords have. Do a gs rotation to hopefully blast firefields and spread tons of vulnerability, and swap back to dagger to dps the enemy down. It’s the mechanic I think would work best.
Warhorn isnt as strong as focus. You would probably start with GS + D/W and cast locust swarm before getting in combat. Then swap out the warhorn for the focus and engage.
You release your locusts, swap to gs and close distance with the mobility skill all greatswords have. Do a gs rotation to hopefully blast firefields and spread tons of vulnerability, and swap back to dagger to dps the enemy down. It’s the mechanic I think would work best.
Warhorn isnt as strong as focus. You would probably start with GS + D/W and cast locust swarm before getting in combat. Then swap out the warhorn for the focus and engage.
for more tryhard also 3 marks from staff before combat!
Indeed. But then you have to move the boss into them or cast them on a boss which starts off green. Interestingly enough. With the defiant change we can probably cast all 4 marks and it wont screw up defiant stripping. It will help. And depending on the fight. It might be worth pre casting Lich marks aswell and then exiting Lich to burst with weapons.
marks wont work when a boss turns from green to red, he would have to step on them. i tried with jotun stargazer :S
i wouldnt waste lich form cd for a burst, I’d rather use golem xD
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
really? i think life siphon could use another skill in its place. Only time i cast it is when closing range in pvp but, then, it only ticks once at best. Useless skill.
Quick question: do you find your sustain to be lacking?
You release your locusts, swap to gs and close distance with the mobility skill all greatswords have. Do a gs rotation to hopefully blast firefields and spread tons of vulnerability, and swap back to dagger to dps the enemy down. It’s the mechanic I think would work best.
Warhorn isnt as strong as focus. You would probably start with GS + D/W and cast locust swarm before getting in combat. Then swap out the warhorn for the focus and engage.
in pve focus is good for the vulnerability only. if you are able to apply vulnerability better than with focus, as i hope, with the greatsword (come on, necro’s vuln is a joke compared to engie’s, for example), then the warhorn complements the dagger better, as it ads some extra damage.
Either that or you think focus is better for reasons I don’t know… you tell me!
Mainhand dagger is better designed than most weapons. You don’t want to use skills 2 and 3 on cooldown, which is better design than a number of other weapons in the game. Each skill has a use, and they’re pretty good for said use. But the uses for 2 and 3 aren’t ones you necessarily want to spam whenever.
really? i think life siphon could use another skill in its place. Only time i cast it is when closing range in pvp but, then, it only ticks once at best. Useless skill.
Quick question: do you find your sustain to be lacking?
no.
And, if i do, then life siphon doesn’t save the day. Typically, when i am out of heals casting life sihpon is the last thing i do before dying.
You release your locusts, swap to gs and close distance with the mobility skill all greatswords have. Do a gs rotation to hopefully blast firefields and spread tons of vulnerability, and swap back to dagger to dps the enemy down. It’s the mechanic I think would work best.
Warhorn isnt as strong as focus. You would probably start with GS + D/W and cast locust swarm before getting in combat. Then swap out the warhorn for the focus and engage.
in pve focus is good for the vulnerability only. if you are able to apply vulnerability better than with focus, as i hope, with the greatsword (come on, necro’s vuln is a joke compared to engie’s, for example), then the warhorn complements the dagger better, as it ads some extra damage.
Either that or you think focus is better for reasons I don’t know… you tell me!
Focus 4 is a dps increase. More so than warhorn. Even without the vuln its worth using on cooldown.
