Daggers is the best pve weapon

Daggers is the best pve weapon

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Posted by: ianwelsy.8572

ianwelsy.8572

hi all i am still new to forums so hi all.
I am lvl 36 now and when i was lvl 5-10 i was using axe and WH but then i looked at a topic on here for necro and the guy said useing daggers and focus is AWESOME i am so glad i went to daggers they are so good i have been thinking though of going daggers both hands will test it out today and see other wise i will go dagger and focus.
The dps is so good i even kill fastr than a warrior or mes and rev which is very hard ot do but i do so just a heads up to all you new necros out htere

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

Well you can enjoy it until 80 at least, then you’ll realize that the Reaper with greatsword is so superior its not even funny.

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Posted by: ianwelsy.8572

ianwelsy.8572

oh right ok didn’t know that

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Posted by: OanSur.4590

OanSur.4590

Dont listen to that. Dagger is more than just good weapon even after reaching 80. It is more the way you like to play.

For me, gs on necro attacks too slow, in order to regenerate as much lifeforce as dagger you have to be fighting 2-3 enemies, and the only thing that makes gs OP is repeatable #2 Gravedigger with +20% dmg bonus for enemies below (trait in Spite line) 50%hp and 100%crit chance (thanks to Decimate Defenses trait in reaper line- unlocked for players with expansion, once they have enough hero points).

Before you run reaper you wont enjoy Death Shroud (maybe #4 and #5 skills for some aoe) but once you go reaper you want that Shroud to last forever. Then, dagger is most effective both in damage and lifeforce generation.

Also, farming in any kind of map where you have to tag enemies by hitting them is nightmare with gs and piece of cake with dagger. Not mentioning enemies can interrupt your gravedigger, run out of range, evade or blind you. Then it goes on full cooldown and all your dps goes Bye Bye.

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

Both GS and Dagger are good and you want to rotate between both weapon sets instead of camping either.

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Posted by: AdmiralSnackbar.4859

AdmiralSnackbar.4859

Dagger is probably the best weapon to start with in the explorable zones [Along with minions whose abilities don’t scale with your gear] But if you get to other content Dagger can be superceded by other weapons depending on the encounter. There are some enemies in Maguma for example that are not worth meleeing 100% of the time unless you are very good or very daring.

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Posted by: Ocosh.5843

Ocosh.5843

Yes, dagger is great for PvE power. Dagger offhand is for Condi builds; stick with focus or warhorn. Dagger outperforms greatsword in dps and ds gain until <50% target health. As the guy above said, you can swap between dagger and greatsword to maximize damage, once you’ve unlocked Reaper, but it sounds like you’re a fair distance from that. Enjoy the necromancing on the way.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

Best? No. Good? absolutely. Dagger has some good life force generation as well as a bit of control and healing on it making it a decent choice for a bit of a tankier build. its damage is also sizable enough that it can be your primary melee damage.

Though when looking at Reaper with reaper’s shroud and greatsword the dagger seems a bit superfluous in my opinion.

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Posted by: pepsis.5384

pepsis.5384

After some PVE testing Id say it comes down to personal preference. For me its quite simple, I rolled a Necromancer exactly because I heard they are getting Greatswords.

As far as dps goes, Id say its about equal till <50% target HP at which point GS takes over. I know dagger seems better on its own cause its faster but with GS I can easily get a ~20% crit chance boost and my GS AA3 crits harder than the whole Dagger AA chain. Of course if you run with high base crit chance the above is abit irrelevant to you. Me, I love the idea of a super tough Reaper with high ferocity and free crit chance.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Dagger is a great weapon – the equal of greatsword.

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Posted by: Mega Skeleton.8259

Mega Skeleton.8259

My issue with greatsword is it doesn’t work as well against normal mobs, I feel. But maybe I’m just not used to it. Whipping around a dagger is just kitten effective for shredding whats in front of you. I guess greatsword takes more finesse, but as a general rule in games, slower, hard hitting weapons perform crappier against low health mobs. The slower LF gen can be a serious hindrance as well.

All in all I think it’s good the weapons excel in their own ways, and offer some different options even if they’re both power weapons.

[EG] is recruiting!

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Posted by: Faction.4013

Faction.4013

What do ya’ll think a good build would be with D/D & GS?

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

For PvE?

Spite top-mid-mid
Blood Magic mid-bottom-top
Reaper mid-bottom-bottom

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Pure dps
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-top
reaper mid-bottom-mid

raid dps tank
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-bottom
reaper top-bottom-top

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Posted by: Mercurias.1826

Mercurias.1826

Eh. I tend to carry one of every weapon, and I use all of them depending on the situation.

I like the dagger a lot for its steady damage, especially when paired with Blood magic. The utilities are a flat DPS loss, but they still occasionally come in handy when I have to stay at range. As an offhand, I like the dagger for condi builds rather than power builds, though it’s skill 4 is very good for condi cleansing solo when you need it.

My particular gameplay experience has made the Necro greatsword easy to pick up and play, though I understand the difficulties some folks are having. It isn’t as nice with blood magic unless you also trait it to siphon life on top, but it works VERY well all the same in PvE and certain situational PvP and WvW circumstances. In other words, I like it a lot, but I won’t tell others they have to use it.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

My issue with greatsword is it doesn’t work as well against normal mobs, I feel. But maybe I’m just not used to it. Whipping around a dagger is just kitten effective for shredding whats in front of you. I guess greatsword takes more finesse, but as a general rule in games, slower, hard hitting weapons perform crappier against low health mobs. The slower LF gen can be a serious hindrance as well.

All in all I think it’s good the weapons excel in their own ways, and offer some different options even if they’re both power weapons.

Eh, I have found that’s exactly what the greatsword is great at. Instead of hacking away 3-5 seconds with ~2K damage per hit on low HP mobs (just your shouts/wells probably brought them to 50%), you press a single button on the greatsword and they all die. Against anything else (such as bosses, veterans, champs) you’re 90% in RS anyway and dont use any normal weapons. The dagger isnt bad and I find it the superior weapon in many other situations but definetly not in general PvE.

The only thing crappy about the GS is the spike pull, its more unreliable than the Mesmer iLeap stun and that’s quite a feat to accomplish.

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Posted by: The Demonic Spirit.3157

The Demonic Spirit.3157

I believe that the best weapon sets are GS\Staff. Playing against a single enemy is useless and a waste of time in gw2 . Great sword has many useful skills ( specially the 3rd and the 4th ones ) Staff is our best range weapon besides that it’s the fastest LF regen source specially when dealing with 3-5 enemies. Using RS and some of staff\gs skills is enough to drop one of the enemies hp to <50% ( which activates the 2nd gs skill cd reset against the rest of the enemies )

All 80es > MM necro is my best ,cleric
guard ,nades eng ,Trap thief \ranger ,signet\shout warrior, zerk mes\ele & shiro rev.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

Dagger is a great weapon – the equal of greatsword.

That is exactly how I feel.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Pure dps
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-top
reaper mid-bottom-mid

For pure DPS his isn’t entirely true.

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

Pure dps
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-top
reaper mid-bottom-mid

For pure DPS his isn’t entirely true.

What would you change? If you’re looking for raw dps, that would probably the best choice. CDR on Wells is strong and Vampiric Presence boosts party DPS slightly. SR doesn’t exactly offer much for damage boosts. RS-AA is lower DPS even with Reaper’s Onslaught, though I just like the trait.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Pure dps
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-top
reaper mid-bottom-mid

For pure DPS his isn’t entirely true.

What would you change then. Because my testing and calculations suggests this. But if ive overlooked something please do tell.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Pure dps
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-top
reaper mid-bottom-mid

For pure DPS his isn’t entirely true.

What would you change then. Because my testing and calculations suggests this. But if ive overlooked something please do tell.

Depends on rotation and build but SR over blood magic. Less survivability but should be better for pure DPS

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Except its not. With a perfect rotation the difference between blood and SR is about 1%. But thats assuming perfect lifeforce management and almost 100% RS auto between other skills. Which is impossible.

A GS dagger rotation on the otherhand is very realistic and achieves about the same max potential dps. So more real dps.

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Posted by: Mickey mb.8690

Mickey mb.8690

THERE IS NO BEST WEAPON OR BUILD…ONLY BEST AT….

I don’t like dagger at all but that’s my opinion…

This game isn’t based on holy trinity where u can exclude the viability of some weapons or builds, so don’t worry. Play what you like and how you like. Don’t let some people who are claiming they know everything (oh the irony) change your mind.
Cheers

Day walker, night stalker…

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Posted by: Mickey mb.8690

Mickey mb.8690

Pure dps
spite top-top-mid
blood mid-bottom-top
reaper mid-bottom-mid

For pure DPS his isn’t entirely true.

What would you change then. Because my testing and calculations suggests this. But if ive overlooked something please do tell.

Can you show those calculations to public? I’m interested how to calculate those parameters.

Day walker, night stalker…

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Posted by: FLiP.7680

FLiP.7680

i have been thinking though of going daggers both hands will test it out today

Dagger off-hand is a condition weapon. Stick with Focus or Warhorn if you’re playing with mighty/strong/berserker gear.

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

Except its not. With a perfect rotation the difference between blood and SR is about 1%. But thats assuming perfect lifeforce management and almost 100% RS auto between other skills. Which is impossible.

A GS dagger rotation on the otherhand is very realistic and achieves about the same max potential dps. So more real dps.

Still unsure. Show me your numbers so I can check how you have done things. I don’t see how the low siphons and extra bit of CDR beat the 5% damage boost.

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Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

Except its not. With a perfect rotation the difference between blood and SR is about 1%. But thats assuming perfect lifeforce management and almost 100% RS auto between other skills. Which is impossible.

A GS dagger rotation on the otherhand is very realistic and achieves about the same max potential dps. So more real dps.

Still unsure. Show me your numbers so I can check how you have done things. I don’t see how the low siphons and extra bit of CDR beat the 5% damage boost.

Spoj has a very nice spreadsheet here, might be helpful for you already.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Its very rough workings for rotations. I mainly used it to rank skills. But it gives you a rough idea of how things stand in comparison to each other.

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Dagger is a great weapon – the equal of greatsword.

That is exactly how I feel.

I almost said dagger > greatsword but the new weapon is so shiny-new right now. Honestly, GS needs utilities and traits that generate a lot of LF. Dagger does not. GS needs good heals. Dagger does not.

If only off-hand dagger were as useful as main-hand…

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Posted by: Mega Skeleton.8259

Mega Skeleton.8259

My issue with greatsword is it doesn’t work as well against normal mobs, I feel. But maybe I’m just not used to it. Whipping around a dagger is just kitten effective for shredding whats in front of you. I guess greatsword takes more finesse, but as a general rule in games, slower, hard hitting weapons perform crappier against low health mobs. The slower LF gen can be a serious hindrance as well.

All in all I think it’s good the weapons excel in their own ways, and offer some different options even if they’re both power weapons.

Eh, I have found that’s exactly what the greatsword is great at. Instead of hacking away 3-5 seconds with ~2K damage per hit on low HP mobs (just your shouts/wells probably brought them to 50%), you press a single button on the greatsword and they all die. Against anything else (such as bosses, veterans, champs) you’re 90% in RS anyway and dont use any normal weapons. The dagger isnt bad and I find it the superior weapon in many other situations but definetly not in general PvE.

The only thing crappy about the GS is the spike pull, its more unreliable than the Mesmer iLeap stun and that’s quite a feat to accomplish.

More reliable than Grasp ;_;

[EG] is recruiting!

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Posted by: Amethyst Lure.5624

Amethyst Lure.5624

I like Dagger in the other set, I often keep it paired with another dagger just for the extra condi removal or applying some opportune condi to the enemy. So for me, dagger/dagger (although it’s so versatile to swap OH so could be anything) + GS.

I would like to use the staff but it just doesn’t feel good enough. I always feel a bit meh with it :/

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Posted by: Mega Skeleton.8259

Mega Skeleton.8259

Yeah, I never really know what to do with staff, especially in PvE. Damage on it is crap across the board, condi transfer is available via dagger and still able to pair it with a more damaging weapon. The chill + poison field and higher base shroud damage are nice, but seems hard to justify half your weapon slots.

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Posted by: Aldath.1275

Aldath.1275

Yeah, I never really know what to do with staff, especially in PvE. Damage on it is crap across the board, condi transfer is available via dagger and still able to pair it with a more damaging weapon. The chill + poison field and higher base shroud damage are nice, but seems hard to justify half your weapon slots.

This. A hundred times.

Dagger is the ONLY weapon I’ve felt worth using on PVE. I saw a level 80 Necromancer today completing map with staff, and at level 27 gear I was still killing stuff faster than her.

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Posted by: Da Wizuuurd.4682

Da Wizuuurd.4682

Except its not. With a perfect rotation the difference between blood and SR is about 1%. But thats assuming perfect lifeforce management and almost 100% RS auto between other skills. Which is impossible.

A GS dagger rotation on the otherhand is very realistic and achieves about the same max potential dps. So more real dps.

Out of curiosity what is the optimal dps rotation

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Ill try and update my guide this weekend. So i plan to record the rotation for that.

Basically above 50% its as follows:
gravedigger > Nightfall > both wells > grasping darkness > deaths charge > gs auto till gravedigger > swap to dagger > focus 4 > dagger auto > deaths charge > dagger auto > swap to greatsword > gravedigger and repeat.

Obviously your larger cooldown skills wont be available for every swap. But im sure you understand the concept. You are using gravedigger as frequently as possible and timing it with weapon swaps. Using both dagger and greatsword auto as inbetween skills. And using reapers touch every time you go dagger and deaths charge once every swap.

Below 50% its much simpler. Gravedigger spam and use nightfall and wells on cooldown.

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: The Demonic Spirit.3157

The Demonic Spirit.3157

I like Dagger in the other set, I often keep it paired with another dagger just for the extra condi removal or applying some opportune condi to the enemy. So for me, dagger/dagger (although it’s so versatile to swap OH so could be anything) + GS.

I would like to use the staff but it just doesn’t feel good enough. I always feel a bit meh with it :/

Yeah, I never really know what to do with staff, especially in PvE. Damage on it is crap across the board, condi transfer is available via dagger and still able to pair it with a more damaging weapon. The chill + poison field and higher base shroud damage are nice, but seems hard to justify half your weapon slots.

This. A hundred times.

Dagger is the ONLY weapon I’ve felt worth using on PVE. I saw a level 80 Necromancer today completing map with staff, and at level 27 gear I was still killing stuff faster than her.

I prefer GS over dagger\focus ( zerker ) , but I would never force my self to be in melee range all the time , that’s where staff comes in handy. I land all staff marks > switch to RS > swtich to GS > staff .. and so on.

All 80es > MM necro is my best ,cleric
guard ,nades eng ,Trap thief \ranger ,signet\shout warrior, zerk mes\ele & shiro rev.

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Posted by: chunx.9521

chunx.9521

Ill try and update my guide this weekend. So i plan to record the rotation for that.

Basically above 50% its as follows:
gravedigger > Nightfall > both wells > grasping darkness > deaths charge > gs auto till gravedigger > swap to dagger > focus 4 > dagger auto > deaths charge > dagger auto > swap to greatsword > gravedigger and repeat.

Obviously your larger cooldown skills wont be available for every swap. But im sure you understand the concept. You are using gravedigger as frequently as possible and timing it with weapon swaps. Using both dagger and greatsword auto as inbetween skills. And using reapers touch every time you go dagger and deaths charge once every swap.

Below 50% its much simpler. Gravedigger spam and use nightfall and wells on cooldown.

What do you think of putting your dark fields down (like Nightfall, wells) before using Gravedigger for the Leeching Bolts (they do around 250-270 I think, though I’m not sure). Did you already account for those in your rotation? Would the addition of leeching bolts make Soul Spiral worth using or would it still be a DPS loss?

I’m not sure on average though how many of the bolts actually hit because they don’t seem to appear in the combat log unless I’ve got something turned off. Is it realistic that all of them hit? Only half? In either scenario, would it be smarter to put down the fields before the finisher and/or include Soul Spiral in the rotation?

I guess a similar question would be, what is the effect of Chilling Bolts if we use Executioner’s Strike + Soul Spiral? Still DPS loss?

(edited by chunx.9521)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Yeah if theres a fire field or dark field then soul spiral is a dps increase. Its potentially a dps increase even without. But its very minor. Leeching and burning bolts make it a good skill. Which is always going to happen in raids.

I didnt want to include it in the main rotation because its one of the low priority dps skills. But you are right about your suggestion. And you are also right about them being unreliable to hit. However on big bosses like Gorseval thats not really an issue.

However the reason for gravedigger before nightfall at the start is simply because of the 8 second cooldown. So you can get 2 gravdiggers off as soon as possible before weapon swap. Technically you probably could swap them round which would only result in a very minor difference.

Executioner Scythe is always a dps loss assuming its aftercast is as high as it feels. The only time that might not be the case is below 25% health. But im not confident on its aftercast at all so i wouldnt recommend using it for anything other than chill and CC if i were you. And chilling bolts dont do damage. The field should already almost cap chill so those short duration bolt chills wont really add much due to the 5 stack cap.

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: chunx.9521

chunx.9521

Yeah if theres a fire field or dark field then soul spiral is a dps increase. Its potentially a dps increase even without. But its very minor. Leeching and burning bolts make it a good skill. Which is always going to happen in raids.

I didnt want to include it in the main rotation because its one of the low priority dps skills. But you are right about your suggestion. And you are also right about them being unreliable to hit. However on big bosses like Gorseval thats not really an issue.

However the reason for gravedigger before nightfall at the start is simply because of the 8 second cooldown. So you can get 2 gravdiggers off as soon as possible before weapon swap. Technically you probably could swap them round which would only result in a very minor difference.

Executioner Scythe is always a dps loss assuming its aftercast is as high as it feels. The only time that might not be the case is below 25% health. But im not confident on its aftercast at all so i wouldnt recommend using it for anything other than chill and CC if i were you. And chilling bolts dont do damage. The field should already almost cap chill so those short duration bolt chills wont really add much due to the 5 stack cap.

Perfect answer. Thanks dude.

So what would be a rotation if you can take advantage of the Leeching Bolts? I was thinking:

Well of Suffering -> Gravedigger -> Nightfall -> Well of Corruption -> Soul Spiral -> Death’s Charge -> Grasping Darkness -> Gravedigger -> Swap for dagger and everything else is basically the same as your rotation above.

This way you won’t ever be stuck using GS autoattack, which it is my understanding is just slightly inferior to dagger auto? The logic of putting the dark fields in that order is just using whatever does the most damage first, as even if Nightfall is used first, there’s still about three seconds before it comes off cooldown when you swap back to GS, so there’s no use placing it earlier in order to combo again with the leeching bolts.

EDIT: actually, I’m sure there’s a way to use nightfall first, combo with a whirl, and then drop wells, and have nightfall back on cooldown from weapon swapping from dagger.

(edited by chunx.9521)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Thats pretty much exactly what i would suggest based on my experience. If your dark field or your allies burn field is up for long enough and you want to stay shroud for CC or other reasons then it might be better to start off with Deaths Charge. That way you can get a second Deaths Charge off before you leave Shroud. Wells are kind of flexible though. Some times you might want to drop them first. Sometimes you might want to save them for a more opportune time.

Greatsword and dagger auto are actually very close in terms of damage. Deathly Chill potentially boosts greatsword auto slightly above dagger even when you consider the extra life steal procs. However dagger is a lot more reliable when dodging is involved. And you still want to swap to dagger set for reapers touch obviously. So its actually not bad to be auto attacking on greatsword. If you do have to auto on greatsword, ideally you want to finish the chain to make sure you get the chill and you can get a further Chilling Nova proc (assuming no grasping darkness chill is available).

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: chunx.9521

chunx.9521

Thanks for the help. Sorry to make the thread go off topic, but hope this was useful to whoever sees it in the future. Was just trying to learn more about stuff to add things to the metabattle page for a reaper build and make sure the information is correct. The recent addition of HoT has seen a flood of new build creators who are frankly, sort of lacking in quality and understanding, and I just think its important to make sure when people mindlessly copy from that site, they mindlessly copy the right stuff.

There’s still plenty of people for instance who believe dagger auto is highest for above 50 HP, and pure Gravedigger spam is best for below 50.

(edited by chunx.9521)

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Yeah its good that you are on the ball. Im far too lazy so the dulfy guide has been delayed far too long. And its nice to discuss things with someone that understands the little details for a change. Most people would rather not put the thought in for themselves and just ask blanket questions. So thank you!

Just started doing some of the dulfy guide earlier. No idea if i will finish it tomorrow since we plan to tackle the third raid boss during the day and then i have to get up for work the next day. So we shall see!

(edited by spoj.9672)

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

Ill try and update my guide this weekend. So i plan to record the rotation for that.

Basically above 50% its as follows:
gravedigger > Nightfall > both wells > grasping darkness > deaths charge > gs auto till gravedigger > swap to dagger > focus 4 > dagger auto > deaths charge > dagger auto > swap to greatsword > gravedigger and repeat.

Obviously your larger cooldown skills wont be available for every swap. But im sure you understand the concept. You are using gravedigger as frequently as possible and timing it with weapon swaps. Using both dagger and greatsword auto as inbetween skills. And using reapers touch every time you go dagger and deaths charge once every swap.

Below 50% its much simpler. Gravedigger spam and use nightfall and wells on cooldown.

I’ll try that.

So far i’ve been using: locust swarm > wells > dagger aa till lf is around 90%.
Grave digger into nightfall > deaths charge and spiral > reaper aa > grave digger and swap back to dagger till lf is around 90% again.

I was a bit surprised at the numbers i was getting, and even in full berserker the necro is pretty durable so i was always last man standing. At this point i want a recount tool more than ever, to stop guessing what the ideal rotation/build is.

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Posted by: Aenesthesia.1697

Aenesthesia.1697

THERE IS NO BEST WEAPON OR BUILD…ONLY BEST AT….

I don’t like dagger at all but that’s my opinion…

This game isn’t based on holy trinity where u can exclude the viability of some weapons or builds, so don’t worry. Play what you like and how you like. Don’t let some people who are claiming they know everything (oh the irony) change your mind.
Cheers

Op: help me!

People: help

You: ignore the help and the elitists that help you. I am better than that, i will not help you.

Me: facepalm.