Guild Wars 2

felincyriac.5981:

wut people actually expected anet to respond here? When was the last time anet made a comment here?

GS reworks and Reaper Changes are in the works stay tunned for next weeks infos about the changes ?

something like that…..
never gonna happen tough it seems….

they showing the necro Community the middle finger years now….

Flubbernaut.9584:

Welp, its been about 24 hours now
No Anet responses

Sorry Lily, Im guessing Anet wants this thread to slowly die

Don’t expect them to respond to this. They seemed to give minor Lip service to this in the stream excusing their actions saying “Oh we can’t give stuff to necro because it’d be major power creep.” Ummm.. Uh huh… Right… Necromancer’s just been the worst profession through out most of the game, and is still pretty low in terms of power compared to other professions barring WvW.

I’m sorry, what they said just irked me.

Not lettin this thread slip down the list

Lily.1935:

Flubbernaut.9584:

Welp, its been about 24 hours now
No Anet responses

Sorry Lily, Im guessing Anet wants this thread to slowly die

excusing their actions saying “Oh we can’t give stuff to necro because it’d be major power creep.”

PFFFFFFFFFF HAHAHAHAHA acting like they not power creeped everyone else XDDD

how many mobility and dmg and invis and evades a thief have ?
how many broken CC invis and dmg and mobility and group utility a mesmer have ?
how many blocks and immunes and group utility and heals a Guard have ?
how many boons everyone can spam ?
how many everything everyone have ?
list goes on with prety much all classes except Necros…

What necros have ? a shroud…. and ? nothing else…
no sixty million spammable boons
no Invis
no Blocks
no Mobility
weak CC
No Special just the necro cool ability
-Mesmer : portal and best existing aoe CC
-Engies: Douple Stomp
-Ranger: kitten Fast Pet Self res
-Eles: 9 million abilities for everything againts anything for everyone on demand.
-Thieves: Best existing Unbeatable mobility and best 1v1 roamer ever
-Warriors: a Second Life and the best Knock downs and most CC in the game
-Necros: …………………… Easiest Target to kill………
no Group utility

Every other class is soooo Power creeped at this point that if you give atleast HALF of this to a necro we would be still behind….

We dont even have a REAL INSTANT Burst dmg like prety much everyone else…

we cant even do that our burst dmg if you can call it that is utterly slow and super easy to avoid….and its channeled for 6 years by multiple abilities…..

and they have the FACE to tell the NEcro players that we cant have ANYTHING because Power creep ?

Logic ? someone ? Anet ? no ? okay…………

Nerf our only avenue of def/off – shroud… tch tch. We go backwards before going forwards… its like the mj moonwalk backwards over a cliff but then miss timing spectral walk

Brujeria.5693:

I think most of the problems necromancer currently is suffering from are major, high level design flaws. Sure you can analyze every change they do, and show them why these where bad / wrong / unwanted, but i think the problems lies in the concept. If you look at what the necromancer should be at a high level concept you see:

• A sturdy, attrition based class, deeply connected to aggressive gameplay. Conditions should be a connecting theme, as well as boon corrupt, condi manipulation and lifedrain. The necromancer should have excellent abilities to stick to a foe but limited disengage potential.

What ANet has created however is a sitting duck. Necromancers are first to focus in competetive game modes. Shroud in its design seems like a pure punishment – the skills feel clumsy, are unreliable and have long cast times and cooldowns – the ability to get lifeforce is heavily crippled by weapon choice – shroud as a profession mechanic has much more traits to make it good than other classes. Overall shroud feels very very limited compared to the other classes mechanics. Baseline skills, weapons, anc mechanics should be usefull and good by default. With traits and a concrete build in mind they should be awesome.

Now i could get into detail of all the following, conceptual problems but everyone should be able to see the problems without explanation.

• No stunbreaks, stability or potent defensive tools to maintain pressure.
• Very limited ways to generate Lifeforce
• Shroud is clumsy, the skills are all not up to the state of the game in regards of quickness and velocity.
• Shroud is limiting several traits, utility skills and builds.
• Fear is too weak. We have one single weapon skill, one single utility skill and one single shroud skill. Yet multiple traits are balanced around fear. Fear basedurations are too low. Fear has much more counters than any other CC skill in the game. Fear should either be a condition (stability and stun breaks have no effect) or a stun (condition cleans, resistance, reduced condi duration have no effect)
• Traits are a mess. See death magic for example, we have 4 traits that are based around minions. We lack % modifiers. We lack offensive group support. We lack a theme in most of the trait lines.
• Staff as a weapon is too weak and gated behind absurdly long cooldowns.

To put things into perspective here: can a necromancer, building around a theme be as efficient as other classes?

Can a pure glass cannon power necro be as strong as a thief, or warrior, or even mesmer in the same setup? It cant, it lacks the tools and the damage.

Can a pure tank necro be as sturdy as a pure tank warrior, or guard, or ele? No, it lacks the stability and stunbreaks to keep up its use. It doenst provide meaningful support, or meaningful CC like other builds.

Can a pure condi necro put out the same amount of pressure and damage as similar classes do? No, necros are good at corrupting and condition manipulation, but they are bad at inflicting much conditions themself. This turns them to maybe even under best circumstances. But these circumstances are only based on the enemy.

Solutions in my opinion would be:

• A full Baseline Shroud overhaul. Skills should be altered based on the weapons wielded.

• Lifeforce generation should be added in form of %damage done, in addition to the current skills generating lifeforce.

• A full rework of staff.

• A full rework of shroud interactions with skills and utilities.

• A full rework of minions.

• A full rework of traits.

All these reworks, with a high concept in mind would fix most of the problems. At this point we need major work, at a core design level. They are fixing things around a concept that has gotten out of place, so no matter how good or bad a small trait or skill change is, this is destined to fail.

I have been saying this for years ^

The problem with necro isn’t one of balance, at least from a pvp perspective.

The problem lies in the conceptual design of the class. In the current power creeped world where everyone is invulnerable all the time and where everyone hits like a truck with low cool-downs then you can’t just exist with a second (unreliable) health bar.

The weapons on necro are across the board weak. Everyone uses staff on every build as necro lacks condi clear so need staff 4. But this weapon is one of the worst in the entire game. The auto attack is useless and the cds and cast times are so long.

You can do all the tweaking you like, but the core issue is no damage avoidance. No invulns, no evades….that is the key to pvp in gw2. It will never change, so as power creep continues the necro will get worse. As power creep continues then slow cast attacks and no damage avoidance gets to be more of an issue.

Necro needs an entire rework from top to bottom to be anything other than cannon fodder in pvp.

Imagine having shadowstep as a utility on necro for example. Or imagine having blurred frenzy on a weapon set. It shows you how bad necro is.

Lily.1935:

Flubbernaut.9584:

Welp, its been about 24 hours now
No Anet responses

Sorry Lily, Im guessing Anet wants this thread to slowly die

Don’t expect them to respond to this. They seemed to give minor Lip service to this in the stream excusing their actions saying “Oh we can’t give stuff to necro because it’d be major power creep.” Ummm.. Uh huh… Right… Necromancer’s just been the worst profession through out most of the game, and is still pretty low in terms of power compared to other professions barring WvW.

I’m sorry, what they said just irked me.

Woah so wait, they actually responded to this in stream?

Nope, that was just a flimsy excuse for why Necro never seems to get (or at least get to keep) anything remotely powerful. It’s pretty clear no one at ANet mains Necro – Ele is their obvious favorite in the light armored classes, after all.

They seem to fundamentally have no idea what would make the class work, and the utter disappointment that is Scourge barrier is more evidence that they simply do not understand the class. Barrier is barely noticeable as a group support because it boosts survivability so minorly and fades so quickly – let alone worth giving up shroud.

let’s look at the history of necromancer in this game shall we

>starts off strong
>no utility, booted from dungeons
>gets big damage update, nerfed to oblivion due to pvp QQ
>conditions become viable in pve, nerfed again, can’t have necro doing damage now can we?
>power elite spec released, everyone tweakes it for conditions
>conditions nerfed again, power useless again
>support elite spec released, zero defence dies in 2 hits and barriers expire just as fast

all necromancers have left is a weird niche carved in WvW by force due to unique boon and condition juggle mechanics, the rest is pure trash that might have place in a tradional mmo but not in an action based one

you should just do like I did and move on, pretending necromancer doesn’t exist in gw2 other than a weird wvw bot

first they make clear they won’t comment on this forum even when they change the lead dev they say he’s not much talkative.
second they are scare of the necromancer they think that ‘second" life bar is op for some reason I would get it if it have 0 degeneration 0 cool down and utility skill but nope
third their excuse for power creep is ridiculous and simply is an insult for any player that play’s a necromancer… their idea of necro is to be debuf spec by removing boons and a pve casual class.
plain disrespectful to this community

Preach… PREACH IT! Great post! @Anet Necro Dev. You should probably read this.

It is because of expectations. A mesmer and a thief, for example, they are used to being the best classes in pvp because they have been for most of the games history. So if they were ever “balanced” objectively then they would feel like they are underpowered (even though they aren’t) because their sub-conscious expectation is to be overpowered.

The opposite is true of necro. In pvp for most of the game’s existence the necro has been the worst class, or one of the worst classes with fringe uses. I would say the ranger is the most similar in pvp, both have been pretty bad on average over the game’s duration.

Anyway, the necro has the expectation of being bad because that is all they have ever known. We get so many necros saying “o that would be op if we had that”, but it wouldnt be OP. It would be fine because classes like mesmer can chain invulns for about 30 seconds. So if necro is objectively balanced then people think it is OP because the expectation is that it will be bad.

The base case for necro is the lowest in the game because it has been the worst class in the game in pvp and pve (on average) over the course of the entire games history. So necro will always be balanced to be bad. Whilst mesmer (for example) will always be balanced to be the best.

The conceptual issues with necro will never be addressed and necro will never be good for an extended period for these reasons.

Can’t really add more to this great post but this.

Necros could be maybe a decent class of not every single skill had a 3/4-1 second cast time or more.

I still don’t understand the change of epidemic, I hate it, can’t buildup condies cause hey has a half a year casting time and you also have to make sure your target doesn’t die before the projectile reaches other targets
I am not gonna start cause I am already getting frustrated, been making posts like this on for years, nothing changed, maybe, just maybe this time they get it right.

They did not make it right with the new spec 0stab practically barrier decay is horrible they atleat give us good condi but that’s it we need a babysitter now more than before

How much DPS does our 1 half-way decent spec (Condi-Reaper) do in actual raids were chill-finishers are unreliable?

Anyone have a link to a site that gives actual raid logs for GW2 rather than test-dummy parses?

I’m going to make A new post soon on a concept I’m calling ‘the 7 to 1’ hypothesis which will talk about the balance of shroud and the new elite spec. Look forward to that because I’m going into more detail on the pros and cons of necromancer balance. Mostly cons.

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

I’ll agree that the death magic tree is lacking synergy with scourge, but things like dhuumfire has only become an alternate approach, and much better in this case, much harder to evade, you don’t get kited or projectile blocked, instantaneous.

But with skills like F2, you don’t even need shrouded removal anymore. The problems is moreso on the death magic end rather than the scourge end.

Spiteful spirit takes a bit of a back seat now, I completely disagree that it was underpowered before though. And thanks to path of corruption, you don’t even need spiteful spirit anymore. Scourge is just so good, with the traits it does have synergy with, like path of corruption, it just bandaids over anything we might have lost on the ‘enter shroud’ department.

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

I’ll agree that the death magic tree is lacking synergy with scourge, but things like dhuumfire has only become an alternate approach, and much better in this case, much harder to evade, you don’t get kited or projectile blocked, instantaneous.

But with skills like F2, you don’t even need shrouded removal anymore. The problems is moreso on the death magic end rather than the scourge end.

Spiteful spirit takes a bit of a back seat now, I completely disagree that it was underpowered before though. And thanks to path of corruption, you don’t even need spiteful spirit anymore. Scourge is just so good, with the traits it does have synergy with, like path of corruption, it just bandaids over anything we might have lost on the ‘enter shroud’ department.

Lol…

Scourge, as it stands, is a burst condi build with little support that is NO FREAKING DIFFERENT than what necro has been in the past. Also, just because there’s two trait lines it synergizes with means necro will be put in a box like it always has been. Tell me… In a PvE instance, what is scourge bringing to the table different than what necro has in the past? Don’t say barrier…

Windler.4815:

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

I’ll agree that the death magic tree is lacking synergy with scourge, but things like dhuumfire has only become an alternate approach, and much better in this case, much harder to evade, you don’t get kited or projectile blocked, instantaneous.

But with skills like F2, you don’t even need shrouded removal anymore. The problems is moreso on the death magic end rather than the scourge end.

Spiteful spirit takes a bit of a back seat now, I completely disagree that it was underpowered before though. And thanks to path of corruption, you don’t even need spiteful spirit anymore. Scourge is just so good, with the traits it does have synergy with, like path of corruption, it just bandaids over anything we might have lost on the ‘enter shroud’ department.

Lol…

Scourge, as it stands, is a burst condi build with little support that is NO FREAKING DIFFERENT than what necro has been in the past. Also, just because there’s two trait lines it synergizes with means necro will be put in a box like it always has been. Tell me… In a PvE instance, what is scourge bringing to the table different than what necro has in the past? Don’t say barrier…

A short cooldown portal, giving melee DPS a few more seconds to hit the boss before teleporting to a safe spot.

Windler.4815:

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

I’ll agree that the death magic tree is lacking synergy with scourge, but things like dhuumfire has only become an alternate approach, and much better in this case, much harder to evade, you don’t get kited or projectile blocked, instantaneous.

But with skills like F2, you don’t even need shrouded removal anymore. The problems is moreso on the death magic end rather than the scourge end.

Spiteful spirit takes a bit of a back seat now, I completely disagree that it was underpowered before though. And thanks to path of corruption, you don’t even need spiteful spirit anymore. Scourge is just so good, with the traits it does have synergy with, like path of corruption, it just bandaids over anything we might have lost on the ‘enter shroud’ department.

Lol…

Scourge, as it stands, is a burst condi build with little support that is NO FREAKING DIFFERENT than what necro has been in the past. Also, just because there’s two trait lines it synergizes with means necro will be put in a box like it always has been. Tell me… In a PvE instance, what is scourge bringing to the table different than what necro has in the past? Don’t say barrier…

idgaf about pve, ive been talking pvp in this forum the whole time. And if you’re talking about raids, theres no need to run optimal dps builds, its been made very clear you can clear everything with subpar builds.

Ramoth.9064:

Windler.4815:

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

I’ll agree that the death magic tree is lacking synergy with scourge, but things like dhuumfire has only become an alternate approach, and much better in this case, much harder to evade, you don’t get kited or projectile blocked, instantaneous.

But with skills like F2, you don’t even need shrouded removal anymore. The problems is moreso on the death magic end rather than the scourge end.

Spiteful spirit takes a bit of a back seat now, I completely disagree that it was underpowered before though. And thanks to path of corruption, you don’t even need spiteful spirit anymore. Scourge is just so good, with the traits it does have synergy with, like path of corruption, it just bandaids over anything we might have lost on the ‘enter shroud’ department.

Lol…

Scourge, as it stands, is a burst condi build with little support that is NO FREAKING DIFFERENT than what necro has been in the past. Also, just because there’s two trait lines it synergizes with means necro will be put in a box like it always has been. Tell me… In a PvE instance, what is scourge bringing to the table different than what necro has in the past? Don’t say barrier…

idgaf about pve, ive been talking pvp in this forum the whole time. And if you’re talking about raids, theres no need to run optimal dps builds, its been made very clear you can clear everything with subpar builds.

You make no sense no offence explan better

“Oh we can’t give stuff to necro because it’d be major power creep.” “Necro is a selfish class” Both these statements are why this class is in this shape. For some reason somebody at Anet has allowed this to be part of their development culture and it is why we find ourselves here.
I can’t begin to explain how statements like these are tolerated by management. It isn’t context it is a blanket statement which pretty much transcends the message and opinions discussed. If this isn’t the case i would urge management to get involved because clearly there are people who have their own agenda, opinions and or values. I understand that Twitch is live, hence the risk but the fact they were comfortable saying this openly and on air is very disconcerting!
At some point i had hope for the Power Reaper, now i know we are doomed to be a forgotten Elite spec.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

If this isn’t the case i would urge management to get involved because clearly there are people who have their own agenda, opinions and or values.

Wow.

Yes, in Arenanet, there are people. These people, shockingly, have opinions, values, and agendas. Even more SHOCKINGLY, these people decide what X class is about, usually in some form of design document!
Thinking that this is something that “management needs to get involved into” is downright insane. “Go see a doctor and get help” level of insane. I’m not even trying to be insulting. You have a persecution complex that you REALLY should try to get help for.

Yes, necros are a selfish class by design. This isn’t new: Necros have always been more about supporting themselves than others, by design. The entire design of the shroud is pretty much the personification of this. This isn’t even a bad thing, inherently. It makes necros/reapers highly successful in two of the three main game modes.

Scourge is a bit more supporty to offer an alternative for that. That’s a good thing too, because it splits necros up a bit more, like other classes can diversify.

Zefiris.8297:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

If this isn’t the case i would urge management to get involved because clearly there are people who have their own agenda, opinions and or values.

Wow.

Yes, in Arenanet, there are people. These people, shockingly, have opinions, values, and agendas. Even more SHOCKINGLY, these people decide what X class is about, usually in some form of design document!
Thinking that this is something that “management needs to get involved into” is downright insane. “Go see a doctor and get help” level of insane. I’m not even trying to be insulting. You have a persecution complex that you REALLY should try to get help for.

Yes, necros are a selfish class by design. This isn’t new: Necros have always been more about supporting themselves than others, by design. The entire design of the shroud is pretty much the personification of this. This isn’t even a bad thing, inherently. It makes necros/reapers highly successful in two of the three main game modes.

Scourge is a bit more supporty to offer an alternative for that. That’s a good thing too, because it splits necros up a bit more, like other classes can diversify.

The idiocy is strong in this one. Someone telling devs that they have the ability to change a class for the better, is not insane. Warriors did. They got phalanx strength. Rangers did. They got druid. Being successful in two/three (no offense), is a bs argument. Forcing someone that likes a class to the same two boxes is insane. Stop rationalizing this from the devs. Maybe that’s why we’ll never be able to enjoy PvE as necros.

Also, I’m not letting this topic slide down till it gets a response.

Ramoth.9064:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

Well while I agree with your assessment of some of the existing traits and skills, I think your prediction of scourge was completely wrong.

I’m reviewing the scourge now and I disagree that I’m completely wrong, but I am seeing some areas where I may be incorrect. So you’ll have to wait for my later post.

I’ll agree that the death magic tree is lacking synergy with scourge, but things like dhuumfire has only become an alternate approach, and much better in this case, much harder to evade, you don’t get kited or projectile blocked, instantaneous.

But with skills like F2, you don’t even need shrouded removal anymore. The problems is moreso on the death magic end rather than the scourge end.

Spiteful spirit takes a bit of a back seat now, I completely disagree that it was underpowered before though. And thanks to path of corruption, you don’t even need spiteful spirit anymore. Scourge is just so good, with the traits it does have synergy with, like path of corruption, it just bandaids over anything we might have lost on the ‘enter shroud’ department.

I’m noticing that too. I’ve been watching videos of people play all day, since I can’t play for myself. What I’ve been noticing is that people are taking 3 stunbreaks on their bar most frequently and usually the same 2-3 with little deviation between builds. Which is a bit concerning. But this boils back to Stability I believe. Since if one of those had a good number of stability stacks I think we could see more diversity among skills.

I’ve also noticed a strong favoring of Soul reaping, though I can’t be surprised with this. Dhuumfire’s trigger has been stronger than anyone expected previous to this. Though there are still issues with enter and exit traits as well as “While in shroud” traits which seem to have little to no viable function on Scourge. There just doesn’t seem to be much incentive not to take Soul reaping. It boost your life force gain, which I noticed that life force was a Far far more important resource than it is on core and reaper, it increases your life force gain, give you dhuumfire and the minor that grants Spectral armor which fuels into your abilities. I just don’t see a reason not to take it.

The issues I’m seeing with scourge is, again, Lack of Stability and the lack of access to life force on condi weapons. I’d hope that arena net would give life force generation on torch and OH dagger, but I’m not holding my breath.

I think having no stability is valid. I’m glad as a scourge it’s finally very deadly to be in melee against. If scourge had a lot of stability it could be too op. It’s very easy to put on conditions while running around. I think barrier is very strong when used properly.

The thing is, with shades and shade skill pbaoe, you don’t need to face the enemy anymore, which elevates skills like dagger 5, and scepter 2, you can just drop it in front of you while kiting. And f1-5 all land very easily

Ramoth.9064:

I think having no stability is valid. I’m glad as a scourge it’s finally very deadly to be in melee against. If scourge had a lot of stability it could be too op. It’s very easy to put on conditions while running around. I think barrier is very strong when used properly.

I think once people start to learn what’s good in the new meta, scourge, in spite of how powerful it seems now, will begin to suffer greatly in the new meta without stability.

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

I think having no stability is valid. I’m glad as a scourge it’s finally very deadly to be in melee against. If scourge had a lot of stability it could be too op. It’s very easy to put on conditions while running around. I think barrier is very strong when used properly.

I think once people start to learn what’s good in the new meta, scourge, in spite of how powerful it seems now, will begin to suffer greatly in the new meta without stability.

“Suffering because of lack of stability” has long been the problem with Necromancers.

Which is REALLY odd, given that the class lacks mobility, speed, and teleport effects and counts on being able to tank damage and otherwise “be tough”.

I usually load my utility skills up with stun breaks when I WvW to compensate in some small way for the lack of stability.

Tiresias.6473:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

I think having no stability is valid. I’m glad as a scourge it’s finally very deadly to be in melee against. If scourge had a lot of stability it could be too op. It’s very easy to put on conditions while running around. I think barrier is very strong when used properly.

I think once people start to learn what’s good in the new meta, scourge, in spite of how powerful it seems now, will begin to suffer greatly in the new meta without stability.

Which is REALLY odd, given that the class lacks mobility, speed, and teleport effects and counts on being able to tank damage and otherwise “be tough”.

and Immunes and Blocks and evades….

so bassicaly a necro lacks in everything….

Zoltreez.6435:

Tiresias.6473:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

I think having no stability is valid. I’m glad as a scourge it’s finally very deadly to be in melee against. If scourge had a lot of stability it could be too op. It’s very easy to put on conditions while running around. I think barrier is very strong when used properly.

I think once people start to learn what’s good in the new meta, scourge, in spite of how powerful it seems now, will begin to suffer greatly in the new meta without stability.

Which is REALLY odd, given that the class lacks mobility, speed, and teleport effects and counts on being able to tank damage and otherwise “be tough”.

and Immunes and Blocks and evades….

so bassicaly a necro lacks in everything….

I understand not having immunities, blocks, evades, and even vigor. The idea is to “tank” the damage.

But that would mean that Necro should have access to:

Weakness
Protection
Retribution
Stability

And talents that straight increase your toughness and vitality in ways that can’t be removed.

It’s worth noting that Guardian — the polar opposite of Necro in theme but not playstyle — work this way, but they can ALSO give those beneficial boons to their allies. I would understand if Necros were selfish with their buffs in return for parceling out debilitating conditions (Weakness, Chill, Blind), but they need ACCESS to the buffs to begin with.

Very well thought out post, Lily. Really couldn’t have said it better myself. It’s a bit disheartening to see that after 4 years – Anet still haven’t fixed the prevalent issues that have plagued this class since launch.

Second that, brilliant post Lily and some great, valid points made throughout. Good to see Anet put some effort into scourge its great. No doubt itll be toned down but maybe or hopefully some of the dmg pulled away could be placed on our power builds. Please dont’t forget past elites and prove that you really support build diversity.

Tiresias.6473:

Zoltreez.6435:

Tiresias.6473:

Lily.1935:

Ramoth.9064:

I think having no stability is valid. I’m glad as a scourge it’s finally very deadly to be in melee against. If scourge had a lot of stability it could be too op. It’s very easy to put on conditions while running around. I think barrier is very strong when used properly.

I think once people start to learn what’s good in the new meta, scourge, in spite of how powerful it seems now, will begin to suffer greatly in the new meta without stability.

Which is REALLY odd, given that the class lacks mobility, speed, and teleport effects and counts on being able to tank damage and otherwise “be tough”.

and Immunes and Blocks and evades….

so bassicaly a necro lacks in everything….

I understand not having immunities, blocks, evades, and even vigor. The idea is to “tank” the damage.

But that would mean that Necro should have access to:

Weakness
Protection
Retribution
Stability

And talents that straight increase your toughness and vitality in ways that can’t be removed.

It’s worth noting that Guardian — the polar opposite of Necro in theme but not playstyle — work this way, but they can ALSO give those beneficial boons to their allies. I would understand if Necros were selfish with their buffs in return for parceling out debilitating conditions (Weakness, Chill, Blind), but they need ACCESS to the buffs to begin with.

What they could do is rework spectral walk in a way that this is our invul skill and spectral wall as our block. This immediately would make the spectral mastery a true contender in our traits with vital persistance.

Base spectral walk skill could be someything like:

Create a shadowy tether and become spectral, becomming invulnerable first grating life force after. You may return to your initial position by using Spectral Recall.

Spectral Invulenarbility (4s): Become invulnerable
Spectral Walk (6s): gain life force when struck
Swiftness (30s): 33% Movement Speed
Gain life force when taking damage after invulnerable 2%
Breaks Stun

Reduce base cooldown to 40sec.

When traited only the spectral walk is affected because otherwise it would be to OP.
This would mean 100% swiftness uptime when traited which solves some mobility issue (we would still only have RS2 as gap closer).

Base spectral wall no longer fears (only 1sec anyway) but now blocks. The wall would be cast in front of you and follows you much like it does with guardian or rev blocking skills.

Create a spectral wall that protects allies and blocks incomming attacks.

Protection (5s): -33% Incoming Damage
Number of Targets: 10
Duration: 3s
Combo field: Ethereal
Unblockable

Reduce base cooldown to 20secs

What I find strange is the call for nerfs from other Necros. After one Beta weekend no less.

Why so much self hate?

Anet will do as Anet does. Going by Necro’s track record if Anet does nerf Necro it will be heavy handed and cripple the class.

Show some spine for once.

I think Scourge is fine and won’t be calling for self nerfs.

Maxzero.4032:

What I find strange is the call for nerfs from other Necros. After one Beta weekend no less.

Why so much self hate?

Anet will do as Anet does. Going by Necro’s track record if Anet does nerf Necro it will be heavy handed and cripple the class.

Show some spine for once.

I think Scourge is fine and won’t be calling for self nerfs.

A) they think that Scourge deserve a nerf to it’s damage
B) they want nerf now to not be nerfed later
But once the nerfing path it's taken ther's no way it will stop and if other professions will not be nerfed accordingly Scourge wont have so much success in the end
C) they don’t want to buy PoF
D) they don’t care about PvE
E) they don’t play Necromancer

Zefiris.8297:

Yes, necros are a selfish class by design. This isn’t new: Necros have always been more about supporting themselves than others, by design. The entire design of the shroud is pretty much the personification of this. This isn’t even a bad thing, inherently. It makes necros/reapers highly successful in two of the three main game modes.

So what about all the classes that excel in all 3 game modes?

Also isn’t this what specs and builds are for – so a class can at least have a chance in all facets of the game? For PVE Necro and its specs clearly need buffs and this can be seen by objective measures.

What a great post. Thanks for writing this, Lily.

Substatic.6958:

Zefiris.8297:

Yes, necros are a selfish class by design. This isn’t new: Necros have always been more about supporting themselves than others, by design. The entire design of the shroud is pretty much the personification of this. This isn’t even a bad thing, inherently. It makes necros/reapers highly successful in two of the three main game modes.

So what about all the classes that excel in all 3 game modes?

Also isn’t this what specs and builds are for – so a class can at least have a chance in all facets of the game? For PVE Necro and its specs clearly need buffs and this can be seen by objective measures.

I vote for this guy up top he gets it.

Maybe we need 3 forms of balance for the two game modes instead of splitting it into just PvE and PvP. WvWvW IS different from sPvP and has a different gameplay style to it.

Imo, scourge is in a good spot in PvE right now. I think we can all agree on that.

For sPvP, I played around with it a fair bit and scourge seemed good. Right now, there are a couple learn to play issues, with everyone still feeling out the new spec and learning how to counter it. So, a weekend of testing really isn’t enough to form any major statements. I found scourge was particularly effective for point denial (I tried bunkering to great success). However, unlike Reaper, we don’t have any really good pull skills. Because of this, thieves with their rifles and rangers with their bows were able to kite me if I didn’t have the support of my team. If I took portal, I would need to rely on it being on/off CD for that. Incidentally, spellbreakers managed to make my life a living hell as well. They appeared to have a fair bit of condi removal and damage to them. There were some l2p issues involved, but I think its good that necromancers are finally on par, or at-least closer to on par.

In WvWvW, I did less testing. However, I found scourge to be extremely effective as backline support. But, so was my original necromancer too. As reaper amplified what my necromancer was good at in sPvP when it came out, scourge amplified what my necromancer was good at in WvWvW. It wasn’t horrendously OP and it was absolute garbage is caught alone (or when someone snuck behind it). But it was competent at supporting a zerg and dealing out conditions. . .which is kinda its purpose.

Substatic.6958:

Zefiris.8297:

Yes, necros are a selfish class by design. This isn’t new: Necros have always been more about supporting themselves than others, by design. The entire design of the shroud is pretty much the personification of this. This isn’t even a bad thing, inherently. It makes necros/reapers highly successful in two of the three main game modes.

So what about all the classes that excel in all 3 game modes?

Also isn’t this what specs and builds are for – so a class can at least have a chance in all facets of the game? For PVE Necro and its specs clearly need buffs and this can be seen by objective measures.

All classes should do well in their own right in all 3 game modes. That would be balance. If one class is garbage at a game mode, it needs to be evaluated and changed to be better at it, but still good at the others.

felincyriac.5981:

wut people actually expected anet to respond here? When was the last time anet made a comment here?

Oh I remember the last time we got elite specs, good bit of communication from the Devs, man I miss it.

Thank you Lily for the time, love and thought effort you put into this post.
I would call it the content coming from “community’s voice”.

You put into words and summarized major issues about Necromancer class we all love and I really hope it will be noticed by Arenanet.

As a GW1+2 veteran I encourage every Necromancer loving player like me to support and share this post, it is Gold.

Thank you and let’s hope for the best, Gigi Nec Romance

Sometimes I wonder if we even play the same version of the game as the Dev’s.
I mean no disrespect, I admire all the work they do but when it comes to Necro in PvE it has always been in a bad spot, always! (outside of the short lived Minion gimmick in raids)

The ‘meta’ has ebbed and flowed when it comes to dominant professions but one thing has been consistent since launch and that is Necromancer never being needed or wanted, merely tolerated at best or out right shunned at worst.

We (the players) have tried to voice what the problems are and how they could be fixed, maybe not always in the most constructive sense but five years of feeling ignored can do that. It seems to always come back to Necromancer needing to fit this “theme” and suffering because of that. It ‘needs’ to be a selfish class etc.. but why?

I’m not going to lie, I was hyped for Scourge, I heard Necromancer and Support Allies in the same sentence, I thought Anet had finally listened.. but after play testing during the weekend I have to say I’m left disappointed. Sure we got barrier and a lot of this can change based on how viable and needed it actually is but outside of that what is there? From what I can tell there are some might stacking potential which multiple classes already do but nothing along the lines of Grace of the Land, Glyph of Empowerment, Spotter, Spirits, Banners, Alacrity etc..

Please don’t hype it in your live streams as finally giving Necromancer the support ‘niche’ it’s been needing since launch that “couldn’t be given for free” due to power creep when outside of barrier there isn’t any meaningful support there.

Right now I’m just hoping the damage is at least there on this supposed support spec.

Substatic.6958:

So what about all the classes that excel in all 3 game modes?

Also isn’t this what specs and builds are for – so a class can at least have a chance in all facets of the game? For PVE Necro and its specs clearly need buffs and this can be seen by objective measures.

Cut the persecution complex, and read my post again. I never said, nor implied, nor argued that necros should not excel in three game modes.

The point is simple: Base necro, and reaper, ARE de facto selfish classes. This is not a judgement, it’s a design. In most MMOs, the majority of DPS classes are exactly the same.

It just happens that in GW2, our low DPS, coupled with the “selfish” nature of the inherent design, makes us less (or least) desirable in raids.

That’s it. I personally want this changed, but you cannot advocate for meaningful change if you are unwilling to face simple reality. It’s a verifyable fact that the designers consider necros to be a selfish class (which, again, only people with a persecution complex see as an attack, the rest of us recognize what that term means), so what we need to communicate is that, while it gets us far in PvE and WvW, it makes us lacking in PvE:

Scourge bringing support AND DPS is a start to fix it, but reaper (and/or base necro) also need help.

Autumn.8043:

It ‘needs’ to be a selfish class etc.. but why?

Again, you misunderstand what “selfish class” means. It’s not a theme, it’s nothing a necro/reaper needs to be, it what these two ARE. It’s the core design from the beginning.

Just look at shroud. It’s the poster child of this design. Unlike the defensive capabilities of many other classes, it cannot be shared. Aegis? Can be shared. Mesmers/Chronos can even share Distortion. The “selfishness” of the design is simply our class core, changing it would require either an overhault, or splitting PvP/PvE skills.

Remember, the design works for us in two game modes, it just fails us in the third (and, for me, most important one).

That’s the only angle we can really use to change it. Arguing past the actual design simply makes all our feedback worthless. If we don’t acknowledge reality, we’ll get nowhere.

Let me say this again: I want reaper to be buffed to raid viability.

Sure we got barrier and a lot of this can change based on how viable and needed it actually is but outside of that what is there? From what I can tell there are some might stacking potential which multiple classes already do but nothing along the lines of Grace of the Land, Glyph of Empowerment, Spotter, Spirits, Banners, Alacrity etc..

You are severly underestimating the scourge in its current form. What it brings is pretty high DPS, might stacking, and raid-wide defense in one character. Might stacking costs us nothing, nor does barrier spam, we just apply it as part of our rotation. This makes us a pretty good slot and usable – better and more consistent DPS than reaper coupled with might coupled with barrier (and of course epidemic) is worth to bring.

Maybe not meta for every encounter, sure, but most classes aren’t. As long as we are worth to bring, we’ll be fine.

Zefiris.8297:

Again, you misunderstand what “selfish class” means. It’s not a theme, it’s nothing a necro/reaper needs to be, it what these two ARE. It’s the core design from the beginning.

Just look at shroud. It’s the poster child of this design. Unlike the defensive capabilities of many other classes, it cannot be shared. Aegis? Can be shared. Mesmers/Chronos can even share Distortion. The “selfishness” of the design is simply our class core, changing it would require either an overhault, or splitting PvP/PvE skills.

I understand where you’re coming from and you make some good points but I can’t say I fully agree. Just because it was designed with a certain idea in mind, doesn’t make it good design. The Blood Magic trait line rework (which I’m grateful for) has shown they are willing to be flexible when it comes to core Necromancer but it just wasn’t quite up to snuff.

When it comes to Scourge, I’m adopting a wait and see approach.

“Selfish Class” just means that the blast finishers that do exist on the class don’t work in real game conditions when they are needed.

Honestly, the thief is a prime example of a “Selfish” class design that works…

When people say that Necro is a selfish class – I think about all the boons it can apply to itself… being 90% might and maybe sometimes fury, ret, prot, swiftness or stab if you spec into it – but nothing to the degree other classes can buff themselves or others and sometimes both. No access to quickness… No access to block/invuln/evade/reflect… General lack of combo fields and finishers…

The design philosophy just falls short for Necro. It seems like an excuse more than a reason every time it’s brought up. What things Necro does bring to the table (Life Steal, Minions, Condition/Boon Control, Fears) No one wants or cares about.

What it can do – it doesn’t do well enough that people think to bring one over any other class.

I saw a trait on the scourge tree which allows you to steal a boon every time you rip or corrupt one. Why isn’t this a base Necro GM trait? It felt good to finally have access to boons and not get push-pulled/stunned into oblivion. It also falls under the “selfish” design philosophy, and it worked really well imo. It’s a shame that a trait like that has been relegated to an elite – severely limiting options for the class overall.