Guild Wars 2

Mastering DS was never supposed to have been attainable. But since a few people figured out how to do it, the adjustment was inevitable. If you master it again, then you can expect to see a 1/4 sec cast on entry to ensure it never happens again.

Bhawb.7408:

When the collective forum remove their hands from each other’s dongers then I won’t have to be the only one applying logic instead of acting like ANet has some personal grudge against them. Also as someone else said, I always try to present the side of the story that everyone else is neglecting, regardless of what my personal opinion is. I’m actually very critical of ANet when its fitting if you listen to the podcast.

Noone listens to it and no, circlejerking (net not literal definition) is exactly what you have to do when a bunch of halfwits are trying to ruin something good (and bully them into submission).
If they want kittening constructive critique they should show up and filter out good ideas with functional back and fourth discuission, or ask actual necros with like over 10k+ ap/2k+ hours played (aka not me).

Bhawb.7408:

The reason they changed it was because it made no sense that you’d have different CDs depending on how it was used.

It’s actually quite common on many skills (spectral walk, transforms,turrets, zealot’s fire,… ) .

And no, removing the CD is absolutely awful. It allows you to only be barred from DS according to how quickly you can build LF, meaning if you can build enough LF you can be in DS effectively 100% of the time.

And why would that be bad? Death shroud is a defense that isn’t based on the offense of our opponent. So all the opponent has to do is dish out enough damage to overcome our defense. Also death shroud is considered part of our sustain, so being 100% in DS, is like fighting a bunker guardian and not being able to kill him.

I do not understand how people are saying the mechanics did not make sense before. It was already balanced. Here is how the 2 breakdowns went with the necromancer. You had non death shroud builds and you had death shroud builds. Non death shroud builds use death shroud defensively and used it in short bursts like if they are about to die or if there are multiple people killing them. After they manually got out of death shroud, they had a penalty of 10 seconds. The advantage of this was to save their life force bar. Non death shroud necromancer skills are either minions, conditions, or sometimes wells if they are not speced the right way. Now death shroud builds all of their skills revolve around getting death shroud up, but use all of their death shroud up so they do not get penalized. This was an original ANet mechanic for the necromancer. Now lets look at the new mechanic of death shroud ANet made. If you manually get out of death shroud you have the penalty still and if you let death shroud run all the way out, you still have the same penalty. This not only kills builds, but it creates a backwards mechanic for the necromancer. You are rewarded now for getting out of death shroud early so you have the same penalty for time, but you have more life force to use it again. This is exactly what happened with the engineer’s healing turret. The mechanics on it reversed, so now the engineer blows up their healing turret more since they nerfed the heal, which was exactly what they did not want to happen.

Congratulations aNet. You have just killed my powermancer build and I’m sure you have wrecked the playstyle of many other necro’s out there.

And to all those saying it’s a “bug fix”, if it was that important to change this, why not do this TWO YEARS ago instead of letting people get used to a playstyle and mechanic so much so that it becomes core to Necromancers and how people play shroud builds.

I used to use DeathShroud in defensive/offensive fashion, I’d pop it fear, go back to dagger, dps some, switch back to soak some burst, back into normal play etc… etc… it required timing and skill. You have now REMOVED this counterplay from the profession.

It’s a stupid, stupid change.

It is very funny how ANet wants “DIVERSITY” with classes, but when a glass cannon complains how they cannot kill a bunker, ANet automatically responds to nerf that bunker. This has been happening since the beginning of the game. Now that more people figured out how necromancers were tanky. ANet once again makes another nerf, forcing people to make glass cannon builds. Instead of improving other specs to add diversity, ANet’s logic is to nerf something to the ground to force people to pick builds they do not want. Now all necromancers have to suffer this. Seriously, over 2 years if you count alpha, they did not change it since trolls and noobs didn’t complain about it yet. This is the exact reason why people keep builds a secret. If ANet was more professional about their balance changes, a majority of people would not be so secretive about their builds. When that one build is found out and too many people complain ANet automatically makes the game easier for those person, instead of them finding another build that can counter it.

Bhawb.7408:

The reason they changed it was because it made no sense that you’d have different CDs depending on how it was used. And no, removing the CD is absolutely awful. It allows you to only be barred from DS according to how quickly you can build LF, meaning if you can build enough LF you can be in DS effectively 100% of the time.

But to achieve 100% DS uptime you need to play skillfully, build especially for it through traits and utilities, and carefully manage your cooldowns. It was not easy, not commonly seen, and, even amongst the people who built for it and know how to do it, not always possible to pull off. By removing that option they’re just hurting skilled play and build diversity (cause you need both to have built for it and to be good at managing your cooldowns to pull it off!), not nerfing something that was widely exploited and hideously OP! I mean, the kind of builds that used that aren’t even all that powerful, it was mostly zerker builds who sacrificed damage through wells for more life force through spectrals. Even after the SA buff those are pretty niche, so why hit them with the nerfbat? It just feels vindictive for no reason sometimes man!

I am really resisting the urge to go on a rant right now…It’s not the fact they did this to death shroud, it’s the fact they keep nerfing us for no dang good reason, and giving us NOTHING in return.

I found this and I thought I should share it

I was pretty incredulous when this patch came through in a hotfix type patch.. I was in the middle of a play session and wanted to get back to it, and immediately noticed my DS was taking forever to recharge…

Then I read the patch notes…

Then I wondered why anet had said nothing about this beforehand, there had been no consultation about it, no complaints, and they basically snuck it through in a hotfix.

Big middle finger to your necromancer community. Thx anet!

Here is the exact quote for you guys in the patch note for Death Shroud.

“Leaving Death Shroud by running out of life force now engages the same cooldown as manually ending Death Shroud by using the End Death Shroud skill.”

Nowhere does it say it was a bug. So for the people who still think it was a bug, this is proof it is a nerf and Death Shroud was working as intended before this patch.

Anubis.7058:

Bhawb.7408:

When the collective forum remove their hands from each other’s dongers then I won’t have to be the only one applying logic instead of acting like ANet has some personal grudge against them. Also as someone else said, I always try to present the side of the story that everyone else is neglecting, regardless of what my personal opinion is. I’m actually very critical of ANet when its fitting if you listen to the podcast.

Noone listens to it and no, circlejerking (net not literal definition) is exactly what you have to do when a bunch of halfwits are trying to ruin something good (and bully them into submission).
If they want kittening constructive critique they should show up and filter out good ideas with functional back and fourth discuission, or ask actual necros with like over 10k+ ap/2k+ hours played (aka not me).

I, for one, listens to them.

I, too, listen to the podcasts. There’s good discussion that goes on. Heck, I’ve been part of that discussion in the past.

Phil.6123:

Here is the exact quote for you guys in the patch note for Death Shroud.

“Leaving Death Shroud by running out of life force now engages the same cooldown as manually ending Death Shroud by using the End Death Shroud skill.”

Nowhere does it say it was a bug. So for the people who still think it was a bug, this is proof it is a nerf and Death Shroud was working as intended before this patch.

It was a design oversight. Which they only recently felt the need to address. We dont have to agree with their decision but it is what it is. It always seemed like it was unintended to me but it was nothing to make a fuss about. It doesnt make much of a difference to most people. People are just angry because its another nerf and still no major improvements. I think the anger is justified. But i can understand why they fixed this even if it was pretty much pointless to do so.

Not having an issue with it.

Do you play a spectral zerker necro in wvw or tpvp?

If not then no your wouldn’t have an issue with it.

Definitely a killer blow… literally!

for a class with the WORST mobility (having access to stabs with 1 well, 2 possible elite skill (huge cool downs)/1 trait and no invun, no stealth, etc) this is definitely a killer. As a powermancer I rely on fear/DS to maneuver a fight and spectral armor to reinforce my defence. Yes DS is a HUGEEE help for long range kill shots, but its main mechanic is for survivability.

For example you get stun locked by a ham/bow war, pop DS (even if its 1/4 filled) to absorbed the onslaught and possibly get a fear off (as long as they don’t have their stabs up) once DS runs out drop spectral armor to regain some DS get out of stun and use axe2 to get a decent amount of LF back for a potential second round stun lock… as a Zerk its difficult to survive 1 round of stun lock let alone 2 in a row… most classes can disengage a stun lock by simply popping stabs or some other sort of lengthy defense against a multiple stun/knockback attacker.

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread that other players will know that you will always have 10s cooldown when dropping from DS, which gives them a huge advantage to plan burst’s.

this nerf not only reduces skilled-play by some players, but it also makes the worst mobility class even worse… who would have thought that was possible.

Lets put a cooldown for stealth classes where they cannot stealth for 10 seconds after being exposed… oo wait that will never happen!

instead of dinking with Necros, im sure there are other classes which could use a look at… IE burst GS Mesmers who can hit harder then a truck, stealth for the enitre duration of their burst CD… then come right back at you before you can get a hit off. But im sure the 0 CD for loosing 100% of your DS was way to OP for the rest of the GW2 community.

nuff said…

Dear Anet,

I honestly don’t know what you were thinking when you made this debuff. It is a debuff.
It is a debuff to the whole class. In PvE, in sPvP, in tPvP, in WvW. It is a debuff to the whole class. Why would you make such a change when you clearly said you would buff our sustain. Think for a second. You said you’d buff our sustain. You didn’t. You nerfed Deathshroud. I’m not some random player complaining. I’m a player that has played since beta…. and now you nerf our class mechanic.
All I can say is that I am deeply unhappy and I can’t understand why you did this. It was completely unwarranted. Mark my words, you will lose customers.

MethaneGas.8357:

Dear Anet,

I honestly don’t know what you were thinking when you made this debuff. It is a debuff.
It is a debuff to the whole class. In PvE, in sPvP, in tPvP, in WvW. It is a debuff to the whole class. Why would you make such a change when you clearly said you would buff our sustain. Think for a second. You said you’d buff our sustain. You didn’t. You nerfed Deathshroud. I’m not some random player complaining. I’m a player that has played since beta…. and now you nerf our class mechanic.
All I can say is that I am deeply unhappy and I can’t understand why you did this. It was completely unwarranted. Mark my words, you will lose customers.

I second this so much. Being a rather small company with the need of focus on what they are working is all good and fine, but they should really spend more resources on the balancing team. More devs in balancing team, as well as some adding new skills or weapons for classes on a regular base would help so much, especially as they are trying so hard to promote spvp to be “the new best thing”, it sadly wont work like that.

With this latest nerf, watching the deathshroud cool down tick 5 seconds longer as a zerg mobs you is very, very disappointing.

Please change this ArenaNet.

/weWantOurSustainBack

This change has singlehandedly destroyed my PvP DS build, which relied on getting off clutch Spectral Armor/Spectral Walk skills before quickly tapping back into DS, then waiting for the Last Gasp 50% HP proc before doing it again, effectively allowing you to bunker, even against multiple opponents.

Well, not anymore.

Even with the -30% DS cooldown trait, you stand there for 6 seconds taking all the damage, with the Necro having no real damage mitigation outside of DS, you just die.

Why exactly was this change implemented? DS has been working like this since forever. WHY the need to suddenly change it without giving the class anything in return?
Are you TRYING to force unique builds into giving up and joining the cancer that is Minion Master or Terrormancer?

You have effectively ruined this niche type of playstyle and for what reason?
How about you guys start sharing your design philosophy (If there even is one) and COMMUNICATE before making drastic unnecessary changes like this in the future.

This simply won’t do.

this change was implemented to make Unholy Sanctuary the only way to skip DS cooldown, and imo make the change on the trait noteworthy. Also to prevent abuse of no DS cooldown with both the trait and the LF depletion.

As a sidenote, I find the new function of Unholy Sanctuary pretty helpful. Saved my kitten alot on a spectral build

I don’t believe in calling a build or playstyle cancer cuz that’s just…. no. Other than that, I agree 100% with Skarware.

And @Pelopidas,
If they want us to go 30 points (or 6 points by the new system) into Death Magic just so our DS can be somewhat like it was before…. no thanks. Even if DS remained the same, and a Necro specced 100% into Spectrals and went 30 into Death, you would probably still be balanced. The DS change is still not justified. It’s quite simply…. bad. And it was an unwise step. I can’t wrap my head around it, really.

I dont disagree

MethaneGas.8357:

If they want us to go 30 points (or 6 points by the new system) into Death Magic just so our DS can be somewhat like it was before…. no thanks. Even if DS remained the same, and a Necro specced 100% into Spectrals and went 30 into Death, you would probably still be balanced. The DS change is still not justified. It’s quite simply…. bad. And it was an unwise step. I can’t wrap my head around it, really.

Yeah it was completely unnecessary, and unfair. I mean, the spectral power necro is such a niche build in pvp already! The only time DS is hilariously OP is in wvw zerg fights, where you can keep it up almost permanently.

It has nothing to do with forcing us into using a trait or nerfing DS, it was an unintended function and since it had fairly minimal balance implications (at least in their mind), they axed it. However, the functionality wasn’t innately bad, so they added it to a bad trait that synergizes really nicely with it.

I hate to break it to you, but they didn’t do this to nerf your awful spectral build.

An unintended function that was there for 2 years and actually allowed for some high skill cap gameplay and interesting builds/playstyles? They never said it was “unintended” and even if it was… come on… 2 years?
And to think they’d do it after saying they’d give sustain… and that’s what I find really silly, cuz (of course they didn’t mean it that way) but it’s like they rub it in by doing the opposite.

Yeah, they added it to the new Death Magic trait, sort of, but I still think that isn’t an excuse to remove how it was was originally.

Getting focused by 5 rangers and letting your DS run out, and being able to pop spectral walk or locust swarm and popping into DS after a few seconds allowed for some really fun gameplay and actual, yes-you-guessed-it … sustain. But no, let’s just scrap the “unintended functionality” because it works really well but you know… it’s unintended so… let’s just do it either way, right? Sounds good.

MethaneGas.8357:

An unintended function that was there for 2 years and actually allowed for some high skill cap gameplay and interesting builds/playstyles? They never said it was “unintended” and even if it was… come on… 2 years?
snip…

I don’t get people who use this argument. It’s not only you, I’ve seen a lot of other people make this argument too. It doesn’t really matter if something was fun or offered what you feel is high skill cap gameplay. If it wasn’t intended, all that other stuff is irrelevant. How long did players get to enjoy fiery rush in its former state before Anet changed it? Is it that surprising that they would leave something that they think needs to be fixed alone for two years? They even commented openly on pet AI and the challenges that are involved with fixing them and that issue is still there 2 years into the game. If it was unintended, fun don’t mattuh. RIP sleep jumping.

Lmfao… fun doesn’t matter? People play the game to have fun. Reducing build viability, lowering the skill cap, and removing playstyles, and SUSTAIN (something that we were supposed to have BUFFED) is the opposite of fun. It ain’t good for your game. Unintended or not, and going back on your word…. you better get your kitten together or you will lose your customers, quite simply and realistically. And…. if it was “unintentional”… couldn’t they MAKE it intentional? That would solve a lot more problems instead of making more.

And just as an fyi, Deathshroud stomping used to be considered as an “unintended functionality” or as an “exploit”. And look at it now.

manveruppd.7601:

you can keep it up almost permanently.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

manveruppd.7601:

you can keep it up almost permanently.

Way to take it out of context. Full quote from manveruppd is “The only time DS is hilariously OP is in wvw zerg fights, where you can keep it up almost permanently.” Even if that were true… it’s pretty irrelevant because you are probably spamming staff #1. Yes… staff #1.
Cuz you know, full Necro zergs are the thing for WvW. Certainly not melee trains.

MethaneGas.8357:

Lmfao… fun doesn’t matter? People play the game to have fun. Reducing build viability, lowering the skill cap, and removing playstyles, and SUSTAIN (something that we were supposed to have BUFFED) is the opposite of fun. It ain’t good for your game. Unintended or not, and going back on your word…. you better get your kitten together or you will lose your customers, quite simply and realistically. And…. if it was “unintentional”… couldn’t they MAKE it intentional? That would solve a lot more problems instead of making more.

And just as an fyi, Deathshroud stomping used to be considered as an “unintended functionality” or as an “exploit”. And look at it now.

If you are circumventing mechanics using “skill” and having fun doing it, it’s bound to get fixed. And you’re probably going to stop having fun. Still, I see what you are getting at, you wrapped up a few different complaints/goals into the idea of how balance should be approached. But balance isn’t necessarily an act of equivalent exchange. It necessitates destructive revision of playstyles while still allowing for construction of others. As such, Anet can decide what is intended and unintended, remove and add as they see fit.

Shroud stomping is still in because Anet agreed that it had some gameplay merit and agreed that it wouldn’t negatively affect balance when given a legit method of use. As some others have speculated, it really seems like Unholy Sanctuary is a similar case with Deathshroud cooldown management. In cases like the functionality of fiery rush, no alternatives to maintain that situational damage were given despite the cries of some players who said the nerf was unnecessary in their opinions. It’s situational. Look at death shroud fall damage/lethal hits, again a feature that was removed from some gameplay areas that they felt affected balance but gave players a legitimate controlled route for.

As for increasing build variety, they still need to work on that. I have no arguments there. And I agree that Unholy Sanctuary needs to be better, as people really wouldn’t be complaining about the change if they felt US left them with a playstyle they felt was viable. I don’t think it needs a Signet of Vampirism level rework but tweaking the values on the second wind portion of it would be nice.

I was under the impression shroud stomping is still in because it was supposed to work that way from the beginning

MethaneGas.8357:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

manveruppd.7601:

you can keep it up almost permanently.

Way to take it out of context. Full quote from manveruppd is “The only time DS is hilariously OP is in wvw zerg fights, where you can keep it up almost permanently.” Even if that were true… it’s pretty irrelevant because you are probably spamming staff #1. Yes… staff #1.
Cuz you know, full Necro zergs are the thing for WvW. Certainly not melee trains.

Actually I was making a perverted joke that went over your head.

nightwulf.1986:

MethaneGas.8357:

Lmfao… fun doesn’t matter? People play the game to have fun. Reducing build viability, lowering the skill cap, and removing playstyles, and SUSTAIN (something that we were supposed to have BUFFED) is the opposite of fun. It ain’t good for your game. Unintended or not, and going back on your word…. you better get your kitten together or you will lose your customers, quite simply and realistically. And…. if it was “unintentional”… couldn’t they MAKE it intentional? That would solve a lot more problems instead of making more.

And just as an fyi, Deathshroud stomping used to be considered as an “unintended functionality” or as an “exploit”. And look at it now.

If you are circumventing mechanics using “skill” and having fun doing it, it’s bound to get fixed. And you’re probably going to stop having fun. Still, I see what you are getting at, you wrapped up a few different complaints/goals into the idea of how balance should be approached. But balance isn’t necessarily an act of equivalent exchange. It necessitates destructive revision of playstyles while still allowing for construction of others. As such, Anet can decide what is intended and unintended, remove and add as they see fit.

Shroud stomping is still in because Anet agreed that it had some gameplay merit and agreed that it wouldn’t negatively affect balance when given a legit method of use. As some others have speculated, it really seems like Unholy Sanctuary is a similar case with Deathshroud cooldown management. In cases like the functionality of fiery rush, no alternatives to maintain that situational damage were given despite the cries of some players who said the nerf was unnecessary in their opinions. It’s situational. Look at death shroud fall damage/lethal hits, again a feature that was removed from some gameplay areas that they felt affected balance but gave players a legitimate controlled route for.

As for increasing build variety, they still need to work on that. I have no arguments there. And I agree that Unholy Sanctuary needs to be better, as people really wouldn’t be complaining about the change if they felt US left them with a playstyle they felt was viable. I don’t think it needs a Signet of Vampirism level rework but tweaking the values on the second wind portion of it would be nice.

if you put that much into death magic for unholy sanctuary then you may as well just roll over and die anyway, as you either will have 0 death shroud sustain or 0 damage. as usual anet put a healing/death shroud skill in a completely unrelated tree gg to them it should be in blood magic or soul reaping.

unlucky.9285:

nightwulf.1986:

MethaneGas.8357:

Lmfao… fun doesn’t matter? People play the game to have fun. Reducing build viability, lowering the skill cap, and removing playstyles, and SUSTAIN (something that we were supposed to have BUFFED) is the opposite of fun. It ain’t good for your game. Unintended or not, and going back on your word…. you better get your kitten together or you will lose your customers, quite simply and realistically. And…. if it was “unintentional”… couldn’t they MAKE it intentional? That would solve a lot more problems instead of making more.

And just as an fyi, Deathshroud stomping used to be considered as an “unintended functionality” or as an “exploit”. And look at it now.

If you are circumventing mechanics using “skill” and having fun doing it, it’s bound to get fixed. And you’re probably going to stop having fun. Still, I see what you are getting at, you wrapped up a few different complaints/goals into the idea of how balance should be approached. But balance isn’t necessarily an act of equivalent exchange. It necessitates destructive revision of playstyles while still allowing for construction of others. As such, Anet can decide what is intended and unintended, remove and add as they see fit.

Shroud stomping is still in because Anet agreed that it had some gameplay merit and agreed that it wouldn’t negatively affect balance when given a legit method of use. As some others have speculated, it really seems like Unholy Sanctuary is a similar case with Deathshroud cooldown management. In cases like the functionality of fiery rush, no alternatives to maintain that situational damage were given despite the cries of some players who said the nerf was unnecessary in their opinions. It’s situational. Look at death shroud fall damage/lethal hits, again a feature that was removed from some gameplay areas that they felt affected balance but gave players a legitimate controlled route for.

As for increasing build variety, they still need to work on that. I have no arguments there. And I agree that Unholy Sanctuary needs to be better, as people really wouldn’t be complaining about the change if they felt US left them with a playstyle they felt was viable. I don’t think it needs a Signet of Vampirism level rework but tweaking the values on the second wind portion of it would be nice.

if you put that much into death magic for unholy sanctuary then you may as well just roll over and die anyway, as you either will have 0 death shroud sustain or 0 damage. as usual anet put a healing/death shroud skill in a completely unrelated tree gg to them it should be in blood magic or soul reaping.

It should be a major trait to begin with and/or it should lose the internal CD and be activated whenever enough life force is available.
Or the “activation of DS upon killing blow” should be separated from the regeneration in DS and both should be major traits.

Making the traits create necromancer mechanics into a play of life force generation instead of a “lifesaver”.

this is cursed touch i main necro in tpvp and wvw i dont notice anything I just kill stuff

In a game with hundreds of skills and thousands of skill/trait combos, players will discover a lot of unintended functionality. It’s called emergent gameplay and it’s what keeps the game interesting. In GW1 it was the whole point of the metagame, and anet didn’t nerf builds that relied on weird, unintended interactions unless they got completely out of control. But in GW2, it feels like we get slapped on the wrist whenever we try to colour outside the lines. Developers understand “build variety” to only mean “the builds we want you to run” and don’t suffer any originality on behalf of the players.

Hence my question to the dev’s a couple weeks ago on “what they want us to play”
Answered by a dev from a different mmo btw

Yeah….. the nerf is BS when roaming.
So much for holding a group of enemies for a while.

Honestly ….

Don’t mind me, I don’t play that much anymore, but there is this talk about ‘unintended’ mechanic in this thread and surrounding this nerf, and that’s a load of kitten.

A long while back they nerfed Near to Death from 50% to 30% recharge and you don’t do that sort of nerf if you weren’t totally aware of how DS is working. i.e. they could have done this nerf back then instead, for starters, or somehow acknowledged the issue.

idk how it would work out now, but I stopped picking up Near to Death after that nerf because it was no longer worth it. Not just due to the nerf, but because Soul Reaping line has some decent traits that it is more about compromise whatever you go for. and wasn’t worth traded it for anything else in that line.

If they nerfed DS now and revert near to Death back to 50% for instance, then that would have nerfed DS for non DS builds (condi etc); and left DS builds as DS builds. (Still the same problem with the trait line tho).

I am not saying this is an idea or suggestion, and i’m not trying to champion Near to Death, i’m saying that they usually nerf/buff the profession with one measure, like there is only one build type and ruin something else.

personally,

After the whole Frost spirit thing. I am under the impression that there is a disconnect between some of the groups.