Death Shroud vs Continuum Split

Death Shroud vs Continuum Split

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

I’ve made the comparison to the mechanics already. Sorta had a tongue in cheek title about it being a second health bar, poking fun at people who think Death shroud is a second health bar when it isn’t. But I thought this would be a better topic for the necromancer community as we have a far better understanding of our profession then the general public of the game.

Now I know at Face value death shroud has far more defensive capabilities then Continuum Split does. While Continuum Split seems to be far more offensive in nature. While its hard to determine how good it’ll be at this moment we can still look at the power comparison between the two mechanics as they both have similar weaknesses and similar strength, though I’ll argue that Continuum Split has far more strengths then Death shroud but I’ll get to that in a moment.

Starting with the Similarities. Both skills prevent you from dying for a short period of time. While DS requires you to build life force which can mean you’re taking quite a bit of damage in the process CS is far easier to generate the clones to fuel itself. Neither of these two mechanics benefit you much if at all from healing making healing skills or party healing useless for you while either of these are going on. Death Shroud lasts longer and has a shorter cool down while Continuum Split has a long cool down it can be argued that it’ll be harder to kick someone out of CS as opposed to DS because of the natural decay of DS.

But this is where the Similarities start to fall apart. Although Both Skills “Cheat death” in a way only one of them actually makes attacks against them useless. And that’s the Mesmer’s Continuum split. Although the necromancer has greater access to DS, they don’t have ways to avoid damage. The mesmer has multiple ways to evade, blink, become invulnerable, stealth and even reflect much of the damage. Already, the mesmer defenses scale up in fights far better then the necromancer currently does. You add Continuum split on top of that and now just on their F skills they have 2 skills to become immune to most damage. Although CS does have the object in the world, which could be easy to destroy. But I doubt a single play will be able to break it within a second.

On the Offensive side of combat CS wins out here. Death shroud has some great options for offense for the necromancer. We have shroud dancing traits, Death Perception, Dhuumfire(once the change hits) along with the few traits that modify its damage making it a very viable option for multiple builds. But the problem is its always the same 5 skills. When you enter death shroud your opponent will always know exactly what you can and can’t do. Even with the traits which help DS out the skills themselves don’t actually change all that much. So your opponent will have perfect or nearly perfect knowledge of what you are going to do or can do once you are in it. CS is far more of a wild card. Entering the fight, right off the bat you can’t be certain how the mesmer will use CS. They could moa you and burst you down then exit and do it again. They could be more supportive and throw down some time warps or throw down reflect. Their options get opened up far wider while using it while Necromancer’s get locked out.

Both the Chronomancer and the Necromancer can exit from their respective abilities at any time they like, or be forced out of them. So any weakness about healing is a weakness we as necromancers have dealt with for years. The difference here is a skilled necromancer who gets their death shroud burned down has little to no options left for them to survive, especially not against focus fire. While a skilled Mesmer player will have just about everything they need to overcome any real disadvantage thrown at them.

When Arena net talks about them wanting necromancer to be an attrition profession much of our community scoffs at the idea because they really haven’t shown us that we are suited for that through the way they balance our mechanics. Then when I look at this new ability given to the mesmer along side a defensive weapon I end up seeing a high potential for an attrition light armored profession and its not the necromancer.

I guess all I’m saying is Arena Net better WOW us with the necromancer specialization because so far what little identity we had is being taken and done better for other professions.

Anyway, enough rambling. What are you guy’s thoughts?

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Posted by: Zoso.8279

Zoso.8279

Playing the waiting game atm. But I won’t ever say no to more DS skills :P necro 4 life

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Posted by: tboneking.2531

tboneking.2531

This is an extremely effective and well argued write-up. The Mesmer’s abilities to out-survive and dish out consistent high damage far outclasses what we can currently do.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

The destructable CS node will melt just as fast as DS, if not faster. The real strength of CS is the skill duplication, not added survivability.

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Posted by: Silv.9207

Silv.9207

CS have a good thing and a bad thing at the same time:
If you do everything right you can double your powerfull skills, deal high damage and recive 0 damage.
But if the enemy know how to fight he will just make all the dps on the CS respown position. With that, the “respown point” will fall down quickly and you will block the mesmer skills and the mesmer will be exactly where you are, granting you the chance to burst down your enemy with CC and AoE skills. Expecially in a team fight of 3vs3.

Then, if the mesmer will do a good job with build and skills you will never be able to burst down him when he “respown” back and he will do every single powerfull skills before you’re able to destroy it’s CS respown point.

In www it isn’t a skill that change so much because of the large amount of AoE skills, but the new Shield and Well skills will be very useful.

In sPvP a good Chronomancer can be unkillable, if you aren’t fast enough (or if he just use Moa form like elite, making you suffer of moa form for 20 seconds instead of 10… OP thing, Op thing!)

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

CS have a good thing and a bad thing at the same time:
If you do everything right you can double your powerfull skills, deal high damage and recive 0 damage.
But if the enemy know how to fight he will just make all the dps on the CS respown position. With that, the “respown point” will fall down quickly and you will block the mesmer skills and the mesmer will be exactly where you are, granting you the chance to burst down your enemy with CC and AoE skills. Expecially in a team fight of 3vs3.

Then, if the mesmer will do a good job with build and skills you will never be able to burst down him when he “respown” back and he will do every single powerfull skills before you’re able to destroy it’s CS respown point.

In www it isn’t a skill that change so much because of the large amount of AoE skills, but the new Shield and Well skills will be very useful.

In sPvP a good Chronomancer can be unkillable, if you aren’t fast enough (or if he just use Moa form like elite, making you suffer of moa form for 20 seconds instead of 10… OP thing, Op thing!)

I think I forgot to mention that CS has a much higher skill cap then DS but also higher reward.

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Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

Didn’t previous DS used to “teleport” you back in a similar way at some point but it was deemed too anti-casual??

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

The destructable CS node will melt just as fast as DS, if not faster. The real strength of CS is the skill duplication, not added survivability.

I think you’re looking at it too one sided. This Does give you quite a bit more Survivability, its just high skill required to get it. Also, I don’t think it’ll go down super easy because of the need for it to be good. Death shroud can be knocked out in a couple hits, depending on who is attack and with what. I imagine the node will be the same way but rather then having the node attached to you it forces your opponent to divide their attention with can be back breaking to allot of players.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

The destructable CS node will melt just as fast as DS, if not faster. The real strength of CS is the skill duplication, not added survivability.

I think you’re looking at it too one sided. This Does give you quite a bit more Survivability, its just high skill required to get it. Also, I don’t think it’ll go down super easy because of the need for it to be good. Death shroud can be knocked out in a couple hits, depending on who is attack and with what. I imagine the node will be the same way but rather then having the node attached to you it forces your opponent to divide their attention with can be back breaking to allot of players.

Having the node attached to you means that you are vulnerable if its destroyed. Opponents can quickly lay some AoE or CC as a nice welcome back present. Imagine snapping back into a dozen AoE fields in WvW. CS also requires clones to shatter, and with Deceptive evasion now a grandmaster not every Mesmer is going to have constant clone output.

While I agree with your position on the weaknesses of DS, I think you’ve been somewhat downplaying the disadvantages of CS.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

The destructable CS node will melt just as fast as DS, if not faster. The real strength of CS is the skill duplication, not added survivability.

I think you’re looking at it too one sided. This Does give you quite a bit more Survivability, its just high skill required to get it. Also, I don’t think it’ll go down super easy because of the need for it to be good. Death shroud can be knocked out in a couple hits, depending on who is attack and with what. I imagine the node will be the same way but rather then having the node attached to you it forces your opponent to divide their attention with can be back breaking to allot of players.

Having the node attached to you means that you are vulnerable if its destroyed. Opponents can quickly lay some AoE or CC as a nice welcome back present. Imagine snapping back into a dozen AoE fields in WvW. CS also requires clones to shatter, and with Deceptive evasion now a grandmaster not every Mesmer is going to have constant clone output.

While I agree with your position on the weaknesses of DS, I think you’ve been somewhat downplaying the disadvantages of CS.

And I think you’re over playing it. A skilled player will be prepared for it. They’ll have their dodge available to them, they’ll have invaln and possibly stealth. I’m not saying there isn’t flaws I’m saying that the mesmer already has various ways to get around the flaws. A high skilled player will be able to get out of the hot situation while an equally skilled necromancer has no real options open to them once DS is down.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Didn’t previous DS used to “teleport” you back in a similar way at some point but it was deemed too anti-casual??

What you’re referring to is a period of time (I believe this is just after DS wasn’t our downed state anymore but I’m not at all confident about that) where entering DS was like activation Spectral Walk. You leave your body behind and then as long as you are in DS you can do whatever you want, run around, shoot stuff, etc. and when it expires or you leave it manually you are transported back.

Its not so much that it was “anti casual”, although it was, but that it makes DS really sucky to use in some defensive situations, since you are forced to go back to where you started using it.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

The destructable CS node will melt just as fast as DS, if not faster. The real strength of CS is the skill duplication, not added survivability.

I think you’re looking at it too one sided. This Does give you quite a bit more Survivability, its just high skill required to get it. Also, I don’t think it’ll go down super easy because of the need for it to be good. Death shroud can be knocked out in a couple hits, depending on who is attack and with what. I imagine the node will be the same way but rather then having the node attached to you it forces your opponent to divide their attention with can be back breaking to allot of players.

Having the node attached to you means that you are vulnerable if its destroyed. Opponents can quickly lay some AoE or CC as a nice welcome back present. Imagine snapping back into a dozen AoE fields in WvW. CS also requires clones to shatter, and with Deceptive evasion now a grandmaster not every Mesmer is going to have constant clone output.

While I agree with your position on the weaknesses of DS, I think you’ve been somewhat downplaying the disadvantages of CS.

You’re forgetting that Grandmasters take no more investment than an Adept trait anymore.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

I actually play both the necromancer and mesmer quite frequently. The mesmer always came naturally to me while the necromancer took allot of work to get the hang of. Even though I do main a necromancer now.

Just so you know. I love the specialization for the mesmer. It looks like allot of fun and I’m cooking up several builds that should be loads of fun and quite viable. But this post wasn’t about my love of the two professions. Its more compare and contrasts between two mechanics which have some striking similarities.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

You’re forgetting that Grandmasters take no more investment than an Adept trait anymore.

Not every build will have room to take Dueling though, and Deceptive Evasion is up against two other strong traits. I’ll be running Mistrust over it personally.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

You’re forgetting that Grandmasters take no more investment than an Adept trait anymore.

Not every build will have room to take Dueling though, and Deceptive Evasion is up against two other strong traits. I’ll be running Mistrust over it personally.

You will also get the Chronomancer’s trait line which has a trait that gives you a clone when you shatter skills as well as lets your phantasms shatter twice. So you won’t need deceptive evasion at all if you feel so inclined. Which you will need to run the Chronomancer elite trait line to make this conversation relevant, so you’ll already have access to clone generation with out dueling.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

You will also get the Chronomancer’s trait line which has a trait that gives you a clone when you shatter skills as well as lets your phantasms shatter twice. So you won’t need deceptive evasion at all if you feel so inclined. Which you will need to run the Chronomancer elite trait line to make this conversation relevant, so you’ll already have access to clone generation with out dueling.

Not necessarily because I have to choose those traits over others, and they don’t actually increase my clone generation, they just incentivise shattering. It doesn’t create a new clone when you shatter, it replaces one you’ve previously created (once).

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

You will also get the Chronomancer’s trait line which has a trait that gives you a clone when you shatter skills as well as lets your phantasms shatter twice. So you won’t need deceptive evasion at all if you feel so inclined. Which you will need to run the Chronomancer elite trait line to make this conversation relevant, so you’ll already have access to clone generation with out dueling.

Not necessarily because I have to choose those traits over others, and they don’t actually increase my clone generation, they just incentivise shattering. It doesn’t create a new clone when you shatter, it replaces one you’ve previously created (once).

They actually do increase your clone generation. Rather then restarting from scratch you get a clone. This is an increase and makes it more fluid.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

It’s essentially a free shatter, it doesn’t actually increase clone production.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

It’s essentially a free shatter, it doesn’t actually increase clone production.

You have that reversed. But I’m not going to continue to argue with you. You want to run a mesmer and never use its core mechanic, have at it.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

It’s essentially a free shatter, it doesn’t actually increase clone production.

You have that reversed. But I’m not going to continue to argue with you. You want to run a mesmer and never use its core mechanic, have at it.

I’m not sure where you’ve reached that conclusion, I shatter on a regular basis.

They actually designed those traits to encourage more shattering, not increase clone generation. If I equip said trait, create a clone and then shatter it, I’m still left with one clone. If someone kills that clone then I need to find another means to create one without dodge, either by waiting for cooldowns or equipping Mirror Images.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

It’s essentially a free shatter, it doesn’t actually increase clone production.

You have that reversed. But I’m not going to continue to argue with you. You want to run a mesmer and never use its core mechanic, have at it.

I’m not sure where you’ve reached that conclusion, I shatter on a regular basis.

They actually designed those traits to encourage more shattering, not increase clone generation. If I equip said trait, create a clone and then shatter it, I’m still left with one clone. If someone kills that clone then I need to find another means to create one without dodge, either by waiting for cooldowns or equipping Mirror Images.

Do you get a clone after you shatter with the trait?

Answer: yes

Do you get your Phantasms after shattering with the other trait?

Answer: yes

Do they create clones/ provide phantasms to be used later?

Answer: Yes

What is Clone generation?

Answer: Creating clones.

What gives you more shatters?

Answer: Skills and traits that recharge shatter skills.

Can you create a clone without having any clones at all after shattering with this new trait?

Answer: In combination with another trait called Illusionary Persona you could in fact create a clone without having a clone to begin with. at least in theory.

Either your language is off and we are arguing past each other, or you just want to be right and refuse to admit it. Either way, I’m done trying to convince you.

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Posted by: Shiki.7148

Shiki.7148

The destructable CS node will melt just as fast as DS, if not faster. The real strength of CS is the skill duplication, not added survivability.

I think you’re looking at it too one sided. This Does give you quite a bit more Survivability, its just high skill required to get it. Also, I don’t think it’ll go down super easy because of the need for it to be good. Death shroud can be knocked out in a couple hits, depending on who is attack and with what. I imagine the node will be the same way but rather then having the node attached to you it forces your opponent to divide their attention with can be back breaking to allot of players.

Having the node attached to you means that you are vulnerable if its destroyed. Opponents can quickly lay some AoE or CC as a nice welcome back present. Imagine snapping back into a dozen AoE fields in WvW. CS also requires clones to shatter, and with Deceptive evasion now a grandmaster not every Mesmer is going to have constant clone output.

While I agree with your position on the weaknesses of DS, I think you’ve been somewhat downplaying the disadvantages of CS.

You do forget that the chrono , having the mesmer skills AND the new goodies, can CC his enemies during the time he is in CS as easily as taking a lollipop from an abandoned baby (exxagerating here). He can use the dazing shatter, the shield skill that blocks projectiles and freezes enemies in time (TWICE!), the well that displaces his enemies rapidly into its center breaking channels, and the well that slows them considerably. Not to mention he could initiate with invisibility so the enemies would also waste time trying to find the point where the chrono entered CS, especially if he is suddenly in their faces and they are occupied with trying not to get stunlocked until death.

And YES, thanks to his little “i get clones/phantasms for free if i blow them up!” traits, the chrono can, in fact, use the daze shatter even if he just shattered to CS.

Oh yeah and mes also has a protective bubble thing. It’s all about the order in which he uses his skills and trying to min/max the efficiency of CS, but trust me, Mesmers have more than enough tools to stop enemies from messing with the CS entry, as long as they aren’t idiots and engage in a 1 v 4+. They aren’t Necros, they can just go stealth and GTFO, which means they can mostly pick their fights.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

(edited by Shiki.7148)

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

Either your language is off and we are arguing past each other, or you just want to be right and refuse to admit it. Either way, I’m done trying to convince you.

It lets you shatter an illusion twice. They specifically stated this as their intent to encourage phantasm mesmers to shatter. This is not hard to follow, your clone output will remain the same, it is your shatter output that is increased.

And given how the trait was presented in the demo I doubt IPersona would proc.

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Posted by: Lily.1935

Lily.1935

Either your language is off and we are arguing past each other, or you just want to be right and refuse to admit it. Either way, I’m done trying to convince you.

It lets you shatter an illusion twice. They specifically stated this as their intent to encourage phantasm mesmers to shatter. This is not hard to follow, your clone output will remain the same, it is your shatter output that is increased.

And given how the trait was presented in the demo I doubt IPersona would proc.

you seem to think that clone generation is synonymous with shatter. And its not… They mean completely different things and I’ve been trying to explain that to you in the last several posts.

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Posted by: Knox.8462

Knox.8462

you seem to think that clone generation is synonymous with shatter. And its not… They mean completely different things and I’ve been trying to explain that to you in the last several posts.

You seem to think that a trait that replaces your illusions once when you shatter somehow increases your output of clones.

It doesn’t, it essentially gives you an extra charge for you to use. A shatter mesmer can now chain together shatters, or a phantasm mesmer can shatter once without worrying about losing their phantasms. However neither of them are generating clones any faster than they were before and certainly not faster than with Deceptive Evasion.

It does not generate a clone, it replaces one you shattered once.

(edited by Knox.8462)

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Posted by: Shiki.7148

Shiki.7148

Either your language is off and we are arguing past each other, or you just want to be right and refuse to admit it. Either way, I’m done trying to convince you.

It lets you shatter an illusion twice. They specifically stated this as their intent to encourage phantasm mesmers to shatter. This is not hard to follow, your clone output will remain the same, it is your shatter output that is increased.

And given how the trait was presented in the demo I doubt IPersona would proc.

It doesn’t simply let you shatter twice, it creates a fully able new clone/phantasm. Which can cast spells, act as distraction, work for other spells appplying to clones/phantasms, works with traits concerning them except for the one that recreates them in the first place can be destroyed, and yes, be shattered. It doesn’t simply give you a free shatter. The difference is, let’s say all your pretty illusions had 1% health left. Shatter them, and you get the same amount of illusions back with full health all their properties, even though their type changes. If it was a free shatter, they’d just stay with their 1% health and you’d get the shatter effect. But even the typoe of illusion changes, eg. the phantasms shattered produce phantasmal chronomancers. Which is, by all definitions, a completely new phantasm.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Necromancer still has open slots on the right side of the health circle.

I will wait and try out the new stuff for Necromancer, Mesmer, and all the rest after leveling Revy.

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Posted by: Kilger.5490

Kilger.5490

I think we’re due for some better escapes in the form of leaps, evades, blocks, immunes, preferably all of the above.

Kilger – Human Ranger
alts: Fangyre (Necro), Hardrawk (Ele);
Jade Quarry

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

I think we’re due for some better escapes in the form of leaps, evades, blocks, immunes, preferably all of the above.

Lol. If you are going to dream, dream big, right?

No, Necromancer will get barely enough to maintain its last place among professions. We just need to L2P. There really are meta builds competitive with top professions but we have not been good enough at finding and playing them.

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Posted by: Kilger.5490

Kilger.5490

I guess the worst part is mesmers could already beat us up but now they are stealing our stuff too.

(haha)

Kilger – Human Ranger
alts: Fangyre (Necro), Hardrawk (Ele);
Jade Quarry