Guild Wars 2

Been saying this since BW3… the death traitline is the worst part of being a necro because you want the major traits so badly, and you want the toughness in spvp or WvW… but the minors turn a lot of people off.

5 point minor: Jagged Horrors
1. They are like instant res for enemies in downed states around you.
2. They are poor confused souls that never seem to get to the next target before they die.
3. The usefulness of this minor doesnt compare to all the other minors.

15 point minor: +toughness for every minion
1. Everyone wants toughness, not everyone wants to be minion master.
2. Minions are broken right now
3. No other minor traits are dependent on what utility skills you are taking.

Suggestions
1. Switch minor and majors by buffing the minors a little and nerfing the major a little.
For example: 5 point minor: Gain 200 toughness while channeling. 10 point major: summon a jagged horror whenever you kill an enemy. But the jagged horror dies slower than the current one. (say -100 per tick instead of -400)

- or -

2. Replace with generic minors like all other trait lines.
For example: Gain 5 seconds of Protection when your health is below 50%.

I totally agree that the first two minor traits are worthless. I’m of the opinion that the minor traits (which are mandatory if you use the trait line) shouldn’t rely completely on you using a certain build or skill. The Jagged Horror would be OK if it lasted for more than 5 seconds, 2 of which were spent spawning. I know that in some of the BWEs that the Jagged Horror wouldn’t even count for the second minor trait either (don’t know if it’s been fixed or not).

I would say that all of the traits could use a rebalance.

For example with the Minor Traits.

Spite

Siphoned Power is a little low, at 25% we are more focus with survival that pushing out that last little bit of damage. This should be boosted to say 40 or 50%, low enough that the extra damage will help but that we aren’t going into defensive play yet.

Curses

Target the Weak is odd, from what I understand Condition damage doesn’t crit (or maybe it doesn’t benefit from it) so why is this in the Precision line when it doesn’t really boost conditions? It doesn’t really hurt as most of our attacks do apply a condition, it just seems out of place to me.

Death Magic

Reanimator is useless as it summons on enemy death. It could be improved by chance on hit, application of conditions, chance on minion hit (minions making minions, heh) or any other conditions. On death makes it useless except in group fights and even then with the current problems facing Jagged Horrors….. This should just be removed and replaced with something else.

Protection of the Horde Useless if you are like me and don’t run a MM build, or when your minions die off faster than they can be replaced. This could be changed to revolve around the Flesh Golem instead as he is the most useful minion currently available, perhaps having him out grants 100 Toughness or something similar.

Deadly Strength Good if you run high toughness, but currently not that great as the other minor traits don’t really support it (such as Protection of the Horde)

Blood Magic

Full of Life 5 secs of regen when hitting 90% health is not too bad actually.

Vampiric Hardly makes you feel like a vampire, it barely drains any health at all and even with 50% boost does almost nothing to heal you. Should be boosted considerably.

Blood to Power is a nice idea if Vampiric worked better. If Vampiric healed us more we would have an easier time staying at or above 90% and then this would be nice. As it stands it’s more of a little boost for opening a fight.

Soul Reaping

Gluttony Not bad at all really, I use dagger/ dagger and dagger focus with a staff and at any point I tend to gain LF back fairly quickly. This could be tweaked or left alone.

Last Grasp Also a pretty good trait as it kicks in on it’s own and helps gain LF.

Strength of Undeath Could be good or bad, if it works while in DS then it’s great, but if it only works when out of DS then it’s mediocre .

I disagree with protection of the horde. It is vital for a MM build. It coincides with the path completely as the path is made for MM’s.

Nero.3978:

I disagree with protection of the horde. It is vital for a MM build. It coincides with the path completely as the path is made for MM’s.

I’m not calling to nerf the MM build, I’m merely suggesting it get buffed up and becomes a major instead of minor.

You can CHOOSE your major traits but not minors… so if someone choose to be MM, they can choose that as a major. Everyone could use toughness, not everyone wants to be minion master.

My other point is “No other minor traits are dependent on what utility skills you are taking”… so I don’t think having a trait only useful to MM build as a minor is fair. The path is viable for a lot of other builds other than MM… it’s pretty much a survivablity line.

Making it a major talent would then force another talent out. The talents I choose are almost mandatory as it is to make MM viable. The only way I could see them using it as a major is to have it added to one of the others such as training of the master which in turn feels way to powerful of a major.

I can handle a change I just don’t want to lose it or the other viability. It is hard enough to play MM in its current state as it is.

I agree reanimator is a pointless trait as it is but if it was fixed it would benefit everyone.

Nero.3978:

Making it a major talent would then force another talent out. The talents I choose are almost mandatory as it is to make MM viable. The only way I could see them using it as a major is to have it added to one of the others such as training of the master which in turn feels way to powerful of a major.

I can handle a change I just don’t want to lose it or the other viability. It is hard enough to play MM in its current state as it is.

I agree reanimator is a pointless trait as it is but if it was fixed it would benefit everyone.

What they need to do is a rework of the Death trait line and a rework of minions. As has been pointed out, the Death trait line is very unattractive to anyone who doesn’t want to use minions because of its first two minor traits. I think this is terrible design. What I think they should do is get rid of Reanimator or buff the crap out of it, and either make Protection of the Horde a major trait of its own or combine it with one of the other major traits and maybe make it a bit weaker to compensate.

Nero.3978:

Making it a major talent would then force another talent out. The talents I choose are almost mandatory as it is to make MM viable. The only way I could see them using it as a major is to have it added to one of the others such as training of the master which in turn feels way to powerful of a major.

But that’s…. exactly what I suggested

For example: 5 point minor: Gain 200 toughness while channeling. 10 point major: summon a jagged horror whenever you kill an enemy. But the jagged horror dies slower than the current one. (say -100 per tick instead of -400)

The 200 toughness was a 10point major: 400 toughness while channeling.

So I was saying, we could nerf the major a bit, and switch it with reanimator, which would then be buffed up as a major.

Everyone could use the channeling trait, so by nerfing it and making it a minor, everyone benefits.

For the 15 point and 20 point, we could have maybe “Gain Retaliation for 1.5 seconds when you heal” (was major, at 3 secounds reta) as minor. And then have a major be “Gain +50 toughness for every minion under your control.” (was minor at +20)

This way, we are not losing any traits, but they are switched so that no minors depend on build/skills/utility.

Elethor.2430:

I would say that all of the traits could use a rebalance.

For example with the Minor Traits.

Spite

Siphoned Power is a little low, at 25% we are more focus with survival that pushing out that last little bit of damage. This should be boosted to say 40 or 50%, low enough that the extra damage will help but that we aren’t going into defensive play yet.

Curses

Target the Weak is odd, from what I understand Condition damage doesn’t crit (or maybe it doesn’t benefit from it) so why is this in the Precision line when it doesn’t really boost conditions? It doesn’t really hurt as most of our attacks do apply a condition, it just seems out of place to me.

Death Magic

Reanimator is useless as it summons on enemy death. It could be improved by chance on hit, application of conditions, chance on minion hit (minions making minions, heh) or any other conditions. On death makes it useless except in group fights and even then with the current problems facing Jagged Horrors….. This should just be removed and replaced with something else.

Protection of the Horde Useless if you are like me and don’t run a MM build, or when your minions die off faster than they can be replaced. This could be changed to revolve around the Flesh Golem instead as he is the most useful minion currently available, perhaps having him out grants 100 Toughness or something similar.

Deadly Strength Good if you run high toughness, but currently not that great as the other minor traits don’t really support it (such as Protection of the Horde)

Blood Magic

Full of Life 5 secs of regen when hitting 90% health is not too bad actually.

Vampiric Hardly makes you feel like a vampire, it barely drains any health at all and even with 50% boost does almost nothing to heal you. Should be boosted considerably.

Blood to Power is a nice idea if Vampiric worked better. If Vampiric healed us more we would have an easier time staying at or above 90% and then this would be nice. As it stands it’s more of a little boost for opening a fight.

Soul Reaping

Gluttony Not bad at all really, I use dagger/ dagger and dagger focus with a staff and at any point I tend to gain LF back fairly quickly. This could be tweaked or left alone.

Last Grasp Also a pretty good trait as it kicks in on it’s own and helps gain LF.

Strength of Undeath Could be good or bad, if it works while in DS then it’s great, but if it only works when out of DS then it’s mediocre .

I would love to see Reanimator changed to summoned when your foe hits 50% health, Than it could stay the same, keep the 30sec CD and even the low health. Than at least it would help in a fight.

You would have to change the name.

mangocheesecake.1487:

Nero.3978:

Making it a major talent would then force another talent out. The talents I choose are almost mandatory as it is to make MM viable. The only way I could see them using it as a major is to have it added to one of the others such as training of the master which in turn feels way to powerful of a major.

But that’s…. exactly what I suggested

For example: 5 point minor: Gain 200 toughness while channeling. 10 point major: summon a jagged horror whenever you kill an enemy. But the jagged horror dies slower than the current one. (say -100 per tick instead of -400)

The 200 toughness was a 10point major: 400 toughness while channeling.

So I was saying, we could nerf the major a bit, and switch it with reanimator, which would then be buffed up as a major.

Everyone could use the channeling trait, so by nerfing it and making it a minor, everyone benefits.

For the 15 point and 20 point, we could have maybe “Gain Retaliation for 1.5 seconds when you heal” (was major, at 3 secounds reta) as minor. And then have a major be “Gain +50 toughness for every minion under your control.” (was minor at +20)

This way, we are not losing any traits, but they are switched so that no minors depend on build/skills/utility.

These are the traits I need in death magic:

Flesh of the master
Protection of the horde
Reanimator (provided its fixed at some point)
Minion Master

As a minion master there is almost no flexibility to not have those traits. The only way I would be fine with the change is if protection of the horde was thrown on one of those majors and not nerfed at all. Otherwise to me as a MM it is a direct nerf. A nerf to an already weak build. If you add it to anyone of the majors it makes it almost mandatory to take. I could juggle around and remove one of those majors but the trade off would be hard. For example I sometimes change minion master trait for the increased staff trait just because it increases my minions. 200 toughness is not worth the 50% minion health. I don’t even think 400 toughness is honestly since once my minions die I lose it anyways.
If it was a inherit passive bonus to having a minion out regardless of the trait then I would say its fine.

I would like to shed some light on why Protection of the Horde is actually a bad trait and unfair to other necro builds.

First we have to remember that Stats and Utilities define the build(theme), while trait are there to enhance our build(theme). the 5, 15, and 25 traits we have no choice over therefore they should be interchangeable so that they can enhance any build that uses the trait line for a stat boost or slotted trait.

Now compare a well necromancer to a minion master. while a minion master benefits from all traits the well necromancer suffers from gaining 0 benefit from triat 5, 15, yet their support build needs key trait like wells grant protection and aoe vulnerablity in death shroud. No necro buildshould be punished for wanting to add toughness or slot death magic traits. No other trait line in the game punishes someone like this.

Even worse Protection of the horde only benefits 1 of 2 minion master builds. Minions masters who choose to use their minions as disposable meat shields to stack poison fields or as blast finishers will have protection of the horde fluctuate far to often to be of use. 3 out of the 6 minions we can obtain have suicide option. Blood fiend will always be getting sacrifced and bone minions make up almost the same dps being blown up every 20 seconds than if they were attacking for 20 second.

Lastly 120 toughness with all your minions out not only isn’t constant as minions are recycled all the time, but you are only getting around 3-4% extra damage reduction with all minions out. Simply put protection of the horde isn’t worth fighting for if all necros build will benefit from a revised trait that can help everyone.

The jagged horrors are an absolute puzzle to me – what good were they supposed to be? Yes, they can devert aggro for a few seconds, but if you are moving they just fall so far behind while spawning it isnt even funny. Then they drop dead immediately (it seems) while continuing to lose health after death.

And I can imagine how annoying they will be in pvp to get enemies out of downed state!

Still, they must have thought it would work out useful, right? So did it mesh with other minion skills/traits (which perhaps were changed) to suddenly become useful? Or is it just a joke/looks thing?

I honestly wish I could turn the reanimator trait off. It’s a HUGE liability in PvP. Every trait should be at least "positive’ this one is not, it’s very VERY negative and has gotten me killed on a near daily basis until I decided that greater marks wasn’t worth putting up with this stupid minion and ditched the death tree altogether.

Nero.3978:

mangocheesecake.1487:

Nero.3978:

Making it a major talent would then force another talent out. The talents I choose are almost mandatory as it is to make MM viable. The only way I could see them using it as a major is to have it added to one of the others such as training of the master which in turn feels way to powerful of a major.

But that’s…. exactly what I suggested

For example: 5 point minor: Gain 200 toughness while channeling. 10 point major: summon a jagged horror whenever you kill an enemy. But the jagged horror dies slower than the current one. (say -100 per tick instead of -400)

The 200 toughness was a 10point major: 400 toughness while channeling.

So I was saying, we could nerf the major a bit, and switch it with reanimator, which would then be buffed up as a major.

Everyone could use the channeling trait, so by nerfing it and making it a minor, everyone benefits.

For the 15 point and 20 point, we could have maybe “Gain Retaliation for 1.5 seconds when you heal” (was major, at 3 secounds reta) as minor. And then have a major be “Gain +50 toughness for every minion under your control.” (was minor at +20)

This way, we are not losing any traits, but they are switched so that no minors depend on build/skills/utility.

These are the traits I need in death magic:

Flesh of the master
Protection of the horde
Reanimator (provided its fixed at some point)
Minion Master

As a minion master there is almost no flexibility to not have those traits. The only way I would be fine with the change is if protection of the horde was thrown on one of those majors and not nerfed at all. Otherwise to me as a MM it is a direct nerf. A nerf to an already weak build. If you add it to anyone of the majors it makes it almost mandatory to take. I could juggle around and remove one of those majors but the trade off would be hard. For example I sometimes change minion master trait for the increased staff trait just because it increases my minions. 200 toughness is not worth the 50% minion health. I don’t even think 400 toughness is honestly since once my minions die I lose it anyways.
If it was a inherit passive bonus to having a minion out regardless of the trait then I would say its fine.

But with the 200 toughness… you wont need protection of the horde (give you lower toughness…….)

Unless they take the minor and major passive trait from death magic and add them to existing minion master traits (like for example, the minion master trait not only gives 20% cooldown reduction but it also gives the jagged horror passive), then changing anything would be a severe nerf to minion masters on a whole, which already is probably the absolute worst path to take on a necromancer.

I personally like being a minion master, so I’m biased to say that they should keep those passive traits. However, outside of the staff and well traits within it, I don’t see why anyone would take this tree if they aren’t a minion master. If you take the death magic trait line for toughness alone, you’re making a massive mistake.

mangocheesecake.1487:

But with the 200 toughness… you wont need protection of the horde (give you lower toughness…….)

200 toughness is 200 kitten toughness. you can’t downplay that just because the tree gives 200 toughness passively. it isn’t until you get into the 1200+ range of toughness that it starts to become more worthwhile to pick something up.

Not only that, but most of the minion master’s damage comes from minions. The minion master needs all of the survivability he can get to guarentee he is around to keep those minions up. Minions don’t scale off of your personal stats, so power is only half as beneficial as lets say compared to an elemetalist who’s utilities scale off of her power stat.

Jagged Horrors add the passive toughness Minion Masters love and could be fixed easily enough by making it so people are unable to rally from a downed state off there deaths.

Also I’m pretty sure they are meant/intended to be used with Death Nova. The idea is they die quickly but put up a nice big AOE poison cloud what’s not to love.

yeah I really enjoy that too, but a minor trait should never rely on a grand master trait to be useful.Not only because it forces you to take a grand master trait to enjoy it, but also that it’s far more likely for people to get a minor trait from an off tree than a grand master. In fact I think overall it would make more sense to:
-remove the degen from jagged horrors
-allow bone minions to activate death nova when killed by putrid explosion
*this is to circumvent the lack of guarenteed poison AOEs when MMing
-increase the cooldown
-allow the minion master trait to reduce the jagged horror trait cooldown
This way people who spec into death magic but aren’t minion masters get something out of it. The jagged horrors won’t do much on their own without the minion traits so I don’t think they would be OP as a minor trait, but still provide something useful. The trade off is that you won’t have an easy AOE poison right off the bat.

as of right now the jagged horror trait does literally nothing in sPvP as there isn’t that much dieing around you. In PvE it’s [marginally] useful for an easy poison combo field, but overlaps with your other minions who die anyway. In WvW it’s awesome for easy poison to spread (poison is glorious in WvW). I’d honestly trade off the easy poison field for a more reliable low damage “don’t kill me or I poison you” meat bag.

hell, I remember in another thread someone recommended making it an “on hit” trait which would be pretty cool too.

“a minor trait should never rely on a grand master trait to be useful”

The whole point I was trying to make with protection of the horde is the fact that it relies on utility skills to be useful. How is that different than what you are saying?

We understand that minion masters are weak at the moment, but why are we all being punished for it in terms of useless minors? I for one wants to spec for greater marks and maybe protection from wells, or reaper’s protection…. there are plenty of nice major traits in that line.

striker.3704:

mangocheesecake.1487:

But with the 200 toughness… you wont need protection of the horde (give you lower toughness…….)

200 toughness is 200 kitten toughness. you can’t downplay that just because the tree gives 200 toughness passively. it isn’t until you get into the 1200+ range of toughness that it starts to become more worthwhile to pick something up.

Not only that, but most of the minion master’s damage comes from minions. The minion master needs all of the survivability he can get to guarentee he is around to keep those minions up. Minions don’t scale off of your personal stats, so power is only half as beneficial as lets say compared to an elemetalist who’s utilities scale off of her power stat.

Wut.

Currently, for the first 20 points:

1. Minor = reanimator
2. Major = 400 toughness while channeling
3. Minor = +20 toughness for each minion (x6 while jagged horror is out =120)
4. Major = nothing affects toughness here

so while channeling + jagged out = +520
Not channeling = +120
Not channeling no jagged = +100

Under the switched around traits:

1. Minor = 200 toughness while channeling
2. Major = A way stronger jagged horror (so the +50 toughness stays longer)
3. Minor = I suggested retal for 1.5 seconds when you heal
4. Major = +50 toughness for every minion (x6 while jagged horror is out =300)

so while channeling + jagged out = +500 (so -20 toughness but you gain retal and also the jagged is out longer now… to you know, reach your target before it dies =.= )
Not channeling = +300 (vs. +120… 180 toughness gained)
Not channeling no jagged = +250 (vs. +100… 150 toughness gained)

So I don’t know why all you minion master people are crying about my suggested “switch around, buff minor to major, nerf major to minor” idea for fixing a trait that relies on utilities.

you don’t need to resort to “crying” slander to try and sway your argument. I understand your logic however it still doesn’t change my opinion.
-as it is channeling is an extremely situational instance, and the toughness added during it doesn’t support many builds (maybe blood magic dagger builds, and life transfer during Death shroud but that’s about it. both of which are more susceptible to CC.) So I don’t particularly see the benefit of toughness during channeling, especially as a minor trait.
-as a major trait even if the jagged horrors were buffed as you said they would be lack luster. as-is they don’t pass for a minor.
-retaliation when healing seems unusual. It would make more sense for retaliation during a health threshold.
however,

+your math is sound on protection of the horde, and it is a pretty situational major.

We don’t like the idea because you are now forcing us to take major traits to do something that the minors currently give us. Why would I as a MM want that switch? I need those major slots for training of the master and minion master. I would never trade those for protection of the horde.

I found myself wondering if changing the current horror into something like a small flesh wurm would be a minor but effective change. That turns them into a ranged attack, meaning that they have a higher chance of actually do some, tho minor, damage before they time out.

The issues of PVP interaction and protection i am less sure about tho.

The problem is, MM may need those two minor traits, but everyone needs toughness. And its not fair for all OTHER builds to lose out on extra defense, just because the line has mandatory skills that can not be used universally.

If the death line is strictly for pets, then remove all the other pet crap from the other lines major sections, and give the other builds the opportunity to get more useful skills that can either increase defense or killing speed, so we wouldnt be restricted on being squishy by force and either use better offenses, or better defenses to survive.

And also remove the non pet skills from the death line, and spread them around. Staffs and wells are useful in just about any build, give the rest of us the opportunity to improve our staff abilities and well abilities without taking traits that have absolutely nothing to do with our build.

There is a difference between taking the good with that bad and taking the good with the useless.

Noriega.8763:

The problem is, MM may need those two minor traits, but everyone needs toughness. And its not fair for all OTHER builds to lose out on extra defense, just because the line has mandatory skills that can not be used universally.

If the death line is strictly for pets, then remove all the other pet crap from the other lines major sections, and give the other builds the opportunity to get more useful skills that can either increase defense or killing speed, so we wouldnt be restricted on being squishy by force and either use better offenses, or better defenses to survive.

And also remove the non pet skills from the death line, and spread them around. Staffs and wells are useful in just about any build, give the rest of us the opportunity to improve our staff abilities and well abilities without taking traits that have absolutely nothing to do with our build.

There is a difference between taking the good with that bad and taking the good with the useless.

Actually that would be bad for everyone. Already minion masters are required to take death magic because half the minion skills are in that line, so if you remove the rest from the other lines, then minion masters would be severly nerfed due to being forced to choose between half of their currently available traits for minions.

Having traits beneficial to your spec spread around is a good thing as it allows you to get more than a single tree of benefit.

At the same time, if Re-animator remains, it needs to be in the same tree as protection of the horde as protection of the horde only benefits from reanimator as far as trait synergy goes.