Guild Wars 2

I don’t know why this change wasn’t better documented in the patch notes and instead was some misleading stuff about extra damage from direct hits.

Anyway, from personal tests and other posters in the forum, base DS amount seems to have gone up from 66% HP to a full 100%, which ups SR 30 DS from 87% to 130% of base HP.

This is actually a pretty decent buff since LF generation is entirely % based and might explain part of the decision behind the change in SW and SA, still unnecessary in my opinion.

I encourage others to test out and confirm if this is actually the case so we can evaluate the patch notes with a clearer understanding of what it did.

This is exactly the sort of think that a patch preview video would help deal with. It’s impossible to tell from what was written in the patch whether this was a 1% or 1,000% buff.

Although, it could have been better documented, a few things:

1. The patch notes probably outlined the underlying bug that was fixed. Odds are, it was always supposed to be 100% of your health (doesn’t that just make sense?), but it’s had some deep issue all this time.

2. I think there needs to be some responsibility/accountability on the side of the community to not break their knees when reacting to words without seeing them in action. If a large number of people have no critical thinking skills, and ANet decides to devote time to insuring those people don’t flip out at the drop of a hat, I’m going to be disappointed in everyone involved. The people and ANet both.

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

I was just about to post something about this I have performed some tests myself against the Chieftain in the Mists, and have an interesting observation. In my observations, our Death Shroud isn’t 100% of our Health. It seems to be, in fact, 120% of our health. That is:

Hypthothesis: Life Force = (1.2 + 0.01*Points in Soul Reaping) * Health

This has come out of a few different tests: one with no amulets/traits, one with only amulet (Soldier), one with 30 points in Blood Magic (Soldier Amulet), and one with 30 point in Blood Magic and 30 points in Soul Reaping (Soldier Amulet). I took special care when using 30 points in Soul Reaping not to activate Last Gasp in a recorded/tabulated run. In each of these tests, (taking into account the 4% natural decay and the bleeding incurred by Chieftain’s standard attack), my tests suggest the above hypothesis.

I look forward to others’ findings and results!

EDIT: Furthermore, it was hypothesized that prior to the patch Life Force was approximately 60% of our Health. If we were taking double damage in Death Shroud, then it stands to reason that the above hypothesis may hold. But I am far too lazy to do much more for now Good luck with your researching!

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

Either they screwed up or the mechanic could actually be now, you know, useful again for damage mitigation.

Well, if I recall the old tests correctly, there was a theory going around that we had 120% HP, but took double damage; essentially making it 60%. With the fix, it is entirely possible that they were right all along.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

The reason you came up with “twice” is because you assumed 52% came from natural degeneration. I wish we get some dev reply on this as such assumptions are hard to believe.

I kept saying that the fix is likely a huge buff (to even out the health overflow change) but people just ridiculed me and kept going on overdramatically about the supposed “huge nerf”.
Sigh.
People never listen to me.

Glad to see that I was more or less correct.
Just outright nerfing Death Shroud would make absolutely no sense.

Bhawb.7408:

Well, if I recall the old tests correctly, there was a theory going around that we had 120% HP, but took double damage; essentially making it 60%. With the fix, it is entirely possible that they were right all along.

That actually sounds like it could be accurate. Always felt like I’d get burst through DS pretty darn quick.

Azraeel.1238:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

The reason you came up with “twice” is because you assumed 52% came from natural degeneration. I wish we get some dev reply on this as such assumptions are hard to believe.

If 25 seconds of natural degen takes 100% of DS, or 4% per second. If you were in it for 13 seconds, you would take 13*4%=52% of DS in natural degeneration.

Targuil.3741:

Azraeel.1238:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

The reason you came up with “twice” is because you assumed 52% came from natural degeneration. I wish we get some dev reply on this as such assumptions are hard to believe.

If 25 seconds of natural degen takes 100% of DS, or 4% per second. If you were in it for 13 seconds, you would take 13*4%=52% of DS in natural degeneration.

I see what you did there.

Even if DS had hp that it was supposed to have in first place it doesn’t help with DS regeneration, it’s just more buffer. More buffer doesn’t help you sustain it any longer, which is my original problem with all this kitten. You get to low LF, you stay in low LF and never get up. Especially when you have nothing to hit. Necros don’t have similar mechanics like guardian block heal or thief stealth away and heal. They just take damage. LF regen depends too much on killing something (in case you have power tree 5 points) and you don’t get enough for hitting, even with new little oomphs.

Can we get some more testingo n this please?

DS has definitely been significantly buffed, but we need more work to work out how much.

Azraeel.1238:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Ok, I just went and tested this in the Mists. The build I was using has 28,113 health and 0 points in Soul Reaping.

From full DS to 0, just sitting there doing nothing, took about 25 seconds.

I attacked the Warrior NPC, popped DS, and let him hit me freely. From full DS to 0 took approximately 13 seconds and according to the combat log, the Warrior hit me for 26,957 points of damage during that time, of which a negligible amount wrapped around to my health. If we assume I lost 52% of my Life Force simply from natural degeneration over the course of that 13 seconds, that implies that my DS had a total equivalent HP of 56,160 or so, or roughly twice my HP.

That sounds insane to me but I tested this again and came up with similar results. Can anyone corroborate, or point out where I made a mistake?

The reason you came up with “twice” is because you assumed 52% came from natural degeneration. I wish we get some dev reply on this as such assumptions are hard to believe.

Right. If the Necro’s DS doesn’t degenerate for some interval after taking damage, then the amount of damage I took would’ve been more in line with the 120% amount other people have been suggesting. But degeneration cannot be simply discounted over the course of an 13-second fight since (if active) it would be a significant amount of mitigation lost.

The biggest problem with these tests is the lack of a controlled environment. Ideally, we’d get 5+ players together to wail on an enemy Necromancer in an attempt to burst through his DS before the first tick of degeneration went into effect. I guess I could go into WvW and try to find some helpful opponents but that seems iffy.

Degeneration would have to factor in when looking at skills like vital persistence. Essentially, of the degenerated DS hp, 25% would be freed up to go to damage reduction (assuming just sitting still taking damage).

Wow, thank you guys. I didn’t know these thing and it’s intersting how DS mechanic works. I knew that we have a 4% natural degeneration, with trait we can decrease it to 3% and if we use the Locust swarm skill or one of the spectal skills then we can decrease it more. In the other hand if we have greater vitality then we will have greater life force pool too? I think I will check it out myself too.
Thanks again guys!

Animi.4617:

In the other hand if we have greater vitality then we will have greater life force pool too? I think I will check it out myself too.
Thanks again guys!

Yes.
The higher your HP the higher your Life Force pool.
So with Vitality raising HP your Life Force pool goes up as well.

why do you guys try test it by completely breaking through your LF pool?

Testing with me on a necro with almost exactly 20k hp, and a friend on a thief, I would go into DS and he would BS me and I would immediately leave DS, meaning at most I’ll have a 4% margin of error if degen does tick once. From the damage of the single back stab, it looks as though LF pool is 100% of your HP pool now (5k something BS left me with 74% LF). When we tested with 30 in SR though, it seemed a little off – but i dunno, only tested that for a minute.

I did a test and it agrees with 120% of our HP. What I did was find a high place that I knew I won’t die when I jump down, and then repeat it with DS on when near the bottom. Comparing my remaining HP with the remaining DS left after that leads me to roughly 120% of our HP.

MingYew.8521:

I did a test and it agrees with 120% of our HP. What I did was find a high place that I knew I won’t die when I jump down, and then repeat it with DS on when near the bottom. Comparing my remaining HP with the remaining DS left after that leads me to roughly 120% of our HP.

Keep in mind that DS has always work differently with falling damage. What people are generally talking about in this thread is the direct damage, which has always over-dropped DS.

Even now, you can take a fall that would kill a normal character, and use full DS for the jump, and still end up with a little bit of DS left (no spillover). DS always seemed (for fall damage) to be over 100%, as some have stated 120%.

My testing, which was from a mob that dealt about 5000 damage, over the course of the degeneration seemed to indicate that with 20 points in soul reaping, I was seeing roughly 120% of my HP in DS. This would be expected.

The best test is what was done above though, where you enter DS, take a direct hit, exit DS, before degeneration, or after only one tick. Do the math then, and it should come out close.

I did not test with PVT gear, I tested with Rabid, though it shouldn’t matter.

From my anecdotal evidence, DS is signficantly more useful for tanking now, and allows me to sustain in ways I never could before. Of course that also has to do with 15 points in SR, and soul marks, but the point still stands.

OmegaProject.9831:

I was just about to post something about this I have performed some tests myself against the Chieftain in the Mists, and have an interesting observation. In my observations, our Death Shroud isn’t 100% of our Health. It seems to be, in fact, 120% of our health. That is:

Hypthothesis: Life Force = (1.2 + 0.01*Points in Soul Reaping) * Health

This has come out of a few different tests: one with no amulets/traits, one with only amulet (Soldier), one with 30 points in Blood Magic (Soldier Amulet), and one with 30 point in Blood Magic and 30 points in Soul Reaping (Soldier Amulet). I took special care when using 30 points in Soul Reaping not to activate Last Gasp in a recorded/tabulated run. In each of these tests, (taking into account the 4% natural decay and the bleeding incurred by Chieftain’s standard attack), my tests suggest the above hypothesis.

I look forward to others’ findings and results!

EDIT: Furthermore, it was hypothesized that prior to the patch Life Force was approximately 60% of our Health. If we were taking double damage in Death Shroud, then it stands to reason that the above hypothesis may hold. But I am far too lazy to do much more for now Good luck with your researching!

Here is a quick video I put together illustrating the above hypothesis. It certainly isn’t optimal, but I feel it is sufficient to qualify as ‘evidence’ to support the hypothesis.

Have a nice day, everyone!

I’m at fractal personal level 62, I ran 77 just two days ago. I rarely use DS as a defensive mechanism. I rarely die. I think the change was a buff and even if it wasn’t (unlikely) I don’t care about it, because I don’t need it.

If I can do it, anyone can. That is all. Please adapt.

Also – Cogbyrn – I never thought I would see you once again on the forums. I remember you arguing with me about PvP just after the game started. So nice to see some release players still hanging around. ;D

jalmari.3906:

Even if DS had hp that it was supposed to have in first place it doesn’t help with DS regeneration, it’s just more buffer. More buffer doesn’t help you sustain it any longer, which is my original problem with all this kitten. You get to low LF, you stay in low LF and never get up. Especially when you have nothing to hit. Necros don’t have similar mechanics like guardian block heal or thief stealth away and heal. They just take damage. LF regen depends too much on killing something (in case you have power tree 5 points) and you don’t get enough for hitting, even with new little oomphs.

Actually LF regen has been consistently buffed for a few patches. Axe 2 doubled its LF regen, most main-hand weapons have had their LF gain upped by 1-2% LF, Grasp is now 15%, Shadow Fiend’s Haunt is 10%. We are at the very least getting there in LF generation, the two big problems remaining are starting a fight with LF (or an easy way to generate it quickly), and having increased gains when fighting multiple enemies.

Bhawb.7408:

Actually LF regen has been consistently buffed for a few patches.

Johnathon Sharp also pointed this out as a defense against criticism of this patch, that they are moving LF gen to main hand weapons.

However Scepter especially is still lagging far behind in LF generation department. The change from 3% to 4% on Feast of Corruption was not near enough.

I would give the 3rd attack in the Scepter auto chain, Putrid Curse, a LF generator of about 3-5%.

leman.7682:

I’m at fractal personal level 62, I ran 77 just two days ago. I rarely use DS as a defensive mechanism. I rarely die. I think the change was a buff and even if it wasn’t (unlikely) I don’t care about it, because I don’t need it.

If I can do it, anyone can. That is all. Please adapt.

Also – Cogbyrn – I never thought I would see you once again on the forums. I remember you arguing with me about PvP just after the game started. So nice to see some release players still hanging around. ;D

A) You cannot legaly go above fractal level 59 because agony from maw instakills you
B) If you are using the rez exploit sure fine go to ranks like 81 or 103 (what some people i know for some reason went to), but other encounters cannot be done by a necro in that way anymore since with no reflects and blocks that stop about 3/5 of damage done in most fractals and ofc special attacks will kill you (and thats a matter of luck, dodge and encounter ai).
C) You probably got carried around 30 fractal levels by your guardian/mesmer allies if you rarely used DS as a defensive mechanism.

Any tests on how toughness works while in DS? Do we still take reduced damage as normally as out of DS? As vitality increases our LF pool, I’m curious as to the benefits of going full tougness tank for DS. If could end up being about to take just about the same amount of damage/hits with toughness over vitality.

Pendragon.8735:

Johnathon Sharp also pointed this out as a defense against criticism of this patch, that they are moving LF gen to main hand weapons.

However Scepter especially is still lagging far behind in LF generation department. The change from 3% to 4% on Feast of Corruption was not near enough.

I would give the 3rd attack in the Scepter auto chain, Putrid Curse, a LF generator of about 3-5%.

I totally agree that it is still not good enough, but its in the right direction.

ReMortis.4287:

Any tests on how toughness works while in DS? Do we still take reduced damage as normally as out of DS? As vitality increases our LF pool, I’m curious as to the benefits of going full tougness tank for DS. If could end up being about to take just about the same amount of damage/hits with toughness over vitality.

I am not into all the ‘math’ of this, but DS with my 2000+ toughness and 30000+ health is still quite effective in WvW. Last night was a blast despite the necro changes.

Andele.1306:

leman.7682:

I’m at fractal personal level 62, I ran 77 just two days ago. I rarely use DS as a defensive mechanism. I rarely die. I think the change was a buff and even if it wasn’t (unlikely) I don’t care about it, because I don’t need it.

If I can do it, anyone can. That is all. Please adapt.

Also – Cogbyrn – I never thought I would see you once again on the forums. I remember you arguing with me about PvP just after the game started. So nice to see some release players still hanging around. ;D

A) You cannot legaly go above fractal level 59 because agony from maw instakills you
B) If you are using the rez exploit sure fine go to ranks like 81 or 103 (what some people i know for some reason went to), but other encounters cannot be done by a necro in that way anymore since with no reflects and blocks that stop about 3/5 of damage done in most fractals and ofc special attacks will kill you (and thats a matter of luck, dodge and encounter ai).
C) You probably got carried around 30 fractal levels by your guardian/mesmer allies if you rarely used DS as a defensive mechanism.

1. You only do odd numbers so you don’t face the Maw.
2. There is no rez exploit at 81, because there is now Maw at odd levels, not sure what you’re talking about.
3. I pugged my first couple of hundred fractals up to level 50, then I started playing with a team. I never felt carried too much And btw I played with Sandy, who is the best mesmer I ever saw in PvE. Did he carry me? I don’t know. Would we succeed without him? Probably yes. Would I change him for anyone else? Never. You can say the same thing about anyone…

And just to make sure you read my post correctly.
It is not intended as a show-off. I’m trying, kind of as Nemesis always strives, to show that you can, if instead of jumping into quick conclusions a day after a patch, people would take time to settle with what they have. The point is, there are people like me, that after the patch play just as they played before before without noticing any difference.

Just give it a week or two. We’ll see if people can adapt and if there’s a problem, I will be the first to raise it.

leman.7682:

I’m at fractal personal level 62, I ran 77 just two days ago. I rarely use DS as a defensive mechanism. I rarely die. I think the change was a buff and even if it wasn’t (unlikely) I don’t care about it, because I don’t need it.

If I can do it, anyone can. That is all. Please adapt.

Also – Cogbyrn – I never thought I would see you once again on the forums. I remember you arguing with me about PvP just after the game started. So nice to see some release players still hanging around. ;D

And I bet you’re 100% surprised at the sort of argumentative mess I’ve injected myself into on account of my desire to challenge people’s declarations. I haven’t been on the forums in quite some time, mostly because they drive me to drink and scotch is expensive. I thought I recognized your name, and the call-out helped me remember. Those were good days, as I was able to learn a lot more about GW1 PvP, thanks to folks like you. Cheers.

Either way, I’m always happy to see people out there making it work. Keep on fighting the good fight.

leman.7682:

1. There is no rez exploit at 81, because there is now Maw at odd levels, not sure what you’re talking about.

And just to make sure you read my post correctly.
It is not intended as a show-off. I’m trying, kind of as Nemesis always strives, to show that you can, if instead of jumping into quick conclusions a day after a patch, people would take time to settle with what they have. The point is, there are people like me, that after the patch play just as they played before before noticing any differences.

Just give it a week or two. We’ll see if people can adapt and if there’s a problem, I will be the first to raise it.

I think we are counting it a different way, with that i mean go up to (as in finish fractal level 80 to get to 81.

The rez exploit is, 2 people die, get rezzed to just above 90%, then the people alive finish the rez half way trough agony, before as a necro you could plain do the encounter by jumping into DS after the second agony tick (or third if you were bored enough to grind up infusion mats).

As for the last part, i dont care if you brag (especially if you back it up with medicore edited videos with overly long rants i can make fun off in the comments section of youtube), im just saying a necro that only used DS as a offensive tool was carried, no matter where he is in “end game”.

Cogbyrn.7283:

And I bet you’re 100% surprised at the sort of argumentative mess I’ve injected myself into on account of my desire to challenge people’s declarations. I haven’t been on the forums in quite some time, mostly because they drive me to drink and scotch is expensive. I thought I recognized your name, and the call-out helped me remember. Those were good days, as I was able to learn a lot more about GW1 PvP, thanks to folks like you. Cheers.

Either way, I’m always happy to see people out there making it work. Keep on fighting the good fight.

The forums are usually fun. There is also much to learn about humans just from reading them. I absolutely agree that sometimes a drink is necessary to… ensure mental and emotional stability.

Andele.1306:

The rez exploit is, 2 people die, get rezzed to just above 90%, then the people alive finish the rez half way trough agony, before as a necro you could plain do the encounter by jumping into DS after the second agony tick (or third if you were bored enough to grind up infusion mats).

I’m quite sure it doesn’t work anymore. Can’t say for sure though. These things tent do be very bizarre.

As for the DS being used as only offensive tool. Of course it’s not like I never used it defensively and it saved my life a couple of times, but I don’t usually have to jump into DS to survive, because I rarely am in danger of dying. Let’s cut this here, we won’t probably come into an agreement and frankly, I don’t want to talk about how the things are now until I try it out in at least few runs.

Cheers!

leman.7682:

1. There is no rez exploit at 81, because there is now Maw at odd levels, not sure what you’re talking about.

Actually, there is a Maw at 81 but that’s because there’s no 81. If you pick 81, it’s actually 80.

Andele.1306:

I think we are counting it a different way, with that i mean go up to (as in finish fractal level 80 to get to 81.

The rez exploit is, 2 people die, get rezzed to just above 90%, then the people alive finish the rez half way trough agony, before as a necro you could plain do the encounter by jumping into DS after the second agony tick (or third if you were bored enough to grind up infusion mats).

Agony at 50+ lasts unlimited amount of time since January patch.

I think it’s a step in the right direction.

I did the maths a while ago, and Death Magic was way bigger boost to DS uptime than Soul Reaping.

It’s still hard to ‘guestimate’ the effect of Toughness, as it’s rounded to 1% blocks when taking damage. So getting hit for 1 damage was the same as getting hit for 0.99% your max life.

The vit rounding was insane before, it actually seemed it was 75% your base stats, then less +life% the more vit you had. Tho this might just have been an anomaly as they say taking direct damage used to hurt more than it should.

BillFreist.1527:

Hi

So a few things about the latest DS changes:

1. Death Shroud incoming damage
   • You now take the correct amount of incoming damage. Before this change (and it wasn’t always like this, either) you would takes the same damage twice.
   • Your Life Force pool is still the same as it has always been. 60% of your maximum health while alive, plus an additional 0-30% of that base value for Traits, meaning you can have a maximum of 78% of your max health.
2. The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.
3. Thirdly, we are testing a new way to reflect your Life Force energy pool in the UI using real-life numbers! .

-Bill

So we are supposed to not have any vigor, blocks, or ways to mitigate a whole burst?

BillFreist.1527:

Hi

So a few things about the latest DS changes:

1. Death Shroud incoming damage
   • You now take the correct amount of incoming damage. Before this change (and it wasn’t always like this, either) you would takes the same damage twice.
   • Your Life Force pool is still the same as it has always been. 60% of your maximum health while alive, plus an additional 0-30% of that base value for Traits, meaning you can have a maximum of 78% of your max health.
2. The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.
3. Thirdly, we are testing a new way to reflect your Life Force energy pool in the UI using real-life numbers! .

-Bill

Thank you very much for the clarification!
You solved a giant doubt and wiped a lot of misinformation!

Wait what? Our pool is 60% with proper damage? Multiple people have tested it to be 100-120%, and many more tested it as 60% pre-patch (when did the double damage bug occur?).

Are we all just completely inept/insane or is something else going on?

War Mourner.5168:

Wait what? Our pool is 60% with proper damage? Multiple people have tested it to be 100-120%, and many more tested it as 60% pre-patch (when did the double damage bug occur?).

Are we all just completely inept/insane or is something else going on?

Probably the tests were just wrong.
All the tests posted here are quite unreliable and without any visual proof, so it isn’t hard to believe that they were wrong.

It’s quite easy to test, as I’ve done myself.
with a thief guild mate, I had 20k hp, full LF. He cloaks, I enter DS, he BS’s me, I leave immediately. He does 5.4k or something, and I am left with 74% LF. There is no natural degen involved in this test (and even if there was one tick, that would mean we would have an even higher LF pool), so it seems pretty simple and straight forward.

War Mourner.5168:

It’s quite easy to test, as I’ve done myself.
with a thief guild mate, I had 20k hp, full LF. He cloaks, I enter DS, he BS’s me, I leave immediately. He does 5.4k or something, and I am left with 74% LF. There is no natural degen involved in this test (and even if there was one tick, that would mean we would have an even higher LF pool), so it seems pretty simple and straight forward.

I can claim I’ve have done that test too and that I’ve got even better results.

BillFreist.1527:

Hi

1. The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.

-Bill

But the falling damage thing was fun. Q_Q

Plus, now we have no way to negate spike damage. Especially in PVE where so many bosses do insane amounts of damage. I hope a future balance patch resolves this issue. We need a form of defense that scales with the damage numbers. Also, please change Defiant.

BillFreist.1527:

The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.

If it’s indeed only about falling damage, remove the ICD on Spectral skills and implement some kind of Aegis-like mechanic upon entering DS (or anything else working similarly, maybe a bit more necroish – saw a lot of good ideas. Spectral Evade maybe? whatever.)
This way PvE’ers will have their one-shot mitigation and it will still reward skillful PvP playing as Necros will be able to absorb 1-shot bursts if they use their defensive mechanic at the right time.
WvW’ers will have their homemade invuln. as Spectral skills used to scale with the number of people you were getting attacked by.

BillFreist.1527:

Hi

So a few things about the latest DS changes:

1. Death Shroud incoming damage
   • You now take the correct amount of incoming damage. Before this change (and it wasn’t always like this, either) you would takes the same damage twice.
   • Your Life Force pool is still the same as it has always been. 60% of your maximum health while alive, plus an additional 0-30% of that base value for Traits, meaning you can have a maximum of 78% of your max health.
2. The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.
3. Thirdly, we are testing a new way to reflect your Life Force energy pool in the UI using real-life numbers! .

-Bill

So Bill, I’m not usually one to quote a red post but your 2nd point there kinda ticked me off a bit.

You are saying that damage was always meant to spill over to the health pool but you only got around to fixing it the other week.

If this is true I have to question any one of you that’s been involved with Necro balancing.

Let me try and paint you a picture by listing what we don’t and what we do have. Now I’m talking purely from a PvE standpoint here, I realize this might get dismissed completely since it would seem balancing is done around PvP. But let’s give it a shot anyway.

Imagine that you are doing a boss that can do a 50k hit and you want to survive this. This 50k hit is in addition to various other sources of damage the boss has.

What Necromancers doesn’t have
-Access to Vigor
-Blocks
-Invulnerability
-Evade

Now all professions but the Necro has access to at least one of those and in the majority of cases more then just one.

What Necromancers used to have
2 dodges
A pseudo block in DS.

Where you could pop DS and survive that 50k hit and just deplete your life force, but we’d be alive, yay!.

What Necromancers have now
2 dodges

No longer can we rely on our one and only way it mitigating damage outside of dodging. So if you have no endurance left you are in essence screwed.

The only way to go about it now is to build for max life force gain and hope you can build a full bar of it before you need to pop it. (Goodluck condimancers…)

So, what have you achieved exactly, well:
-DS can no longer be used as an offensive tool because using your life force for anything but to mitigate damage is to commit suicide.

-Tying in with the above, Necros cleave damage was poor before, but even worse now since we can’t utilize piercing life blast as much anymore.

-You’ve reduced our build options, since you kinda have to go for max life force gain now. So either dagger/axe main hand and focus off hand. + you ideally have to go in to Soul Reaping for that extra bit of life force.

Is it really meant to be this bad/hard for Necromancers? I realize Necromancers have a bit of an SnM thing going on with all the self inflicting pain, conditions, life sacrifice etc but surely this is taking it one step too far?

BillFreist.1527:

Hi

So a few things about the latest DS changes:

1. Death Shroud incoming damage
   • You now take the correct amount of incoming damage. Before this change (and it wasn’t always like this, either) you would takes the same damage twice.
   • Your Life Force pool is still the same as it has always been. 60% of your maximum health while alive, plus an additional 0-30% of that base value for Traits, meaning you can have a maximum of 78% of your max health.
2. The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.
3. Thirdly, we are testing a new way to reflect your Life Force energy pool in the UI using real-life numbers! .

-Bill

To be honest, was anyone complaining about the death shroud parachute? In WvW, it was the only escape method for necros. It wasn’t possible to use it to take towers or keeps due to design (unless a Portal Mesmer would have been able to hide in there as well).

In PvE, it made jumping puzzles safer. Umm, okay. And?

In PvP, it let you survive outside the map on Sky Hammer where you couldn’t do anything anyway, effectively making your team down a player.

The only place where I can possibly see it being an issue are Temple of the Silent Storm and Spirit Watch where, again, it can be used as an escape mechanism or a surprise-initiate (with the knockdown disadvantage).

BillFreist.1527:

Hi

So a few things about the latest DS changes:

1. Death Shroud incoming damage
   • You now take the correct amount of incoming damage. Before this change (and it wasn’t always like this, either) you would takes the same damage twice.
   • Your Life Force pool is still the same as it has always been. 60% of your maximum health while alive, plus an additional 0-30% of that base value for Traits, meaning you can have a maximum of 78% of your max health.
2. The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function. Obviously making these changes simultaneously was to help decrease any sense of buff/nerf to the mechanic itself.
3. Thirdly, we are testing a new way to reflect your Life Force energy pool in the UI using real-life numbers! .

-Bill

Right, could we get a screenshot of the engien script for this? Because stuff was said before that turned out to be wrong, and as multiple player tests from release over halloween (when i posted about 8 screenshots of orr minions and wasps attacking in armor+stats, no armor and white/just armor, showing that toughness was kinda pointless in DS if you went over double the base) and its quite different now, before the DS change a stacked up risen abomination (or one of the icebrood champions slam attacks during claw of jormag) took DS to about 15%, now it takes it to 50%, but the damage in the chat log is still the same 10k hit (or could be that the chat log is kitten y since it doesnt show a lot of skill hits and there is no option to turn on condition dps ticks so my guess is whoever made it was in a rush and didnt bother).

Also there were only about 7 cases (5 that would be worthless unless the entire team is necro) where DS jumps were actually changing the gameplay, each that could just be done with thief/mesmer group stealth, portals or leap skills… i mean you even patched the ds jumping into the game, why remove it now?

“The change to having damage spill over to your health pool was indeed to resolve falling damage, but was also how Death Shroud was, from a Design standpoint, intended to function”

-There goes the necro hopes of a resolve to this absurd overflow mechanic in spvp. (really sad face)

Thanks for the post though.

I don’t know if it was like this before but when I’m taking more damage than I have life force and I’m switching back to my normal health bar, there is a one second delay before I can use my normal skills again. Is this intended?

I Deschain I.4623:

I don’t know if it was like this before but when I’m taking more damage than I have life force and I’m switching back to my normal health bar, there is a one second delay before I can use my normal skills again. Is this intended?

Yes yes, please change this!