Guild Wars 2

The nerf was long overdue, though i would of liked to see power creep for some other classes lowered as well. I like the idea behind the change/nerf. It would allow the chill to be auto covered even if there was a damage loss.

With all that being said, what if the change was 1 stack of torment instead of bleeding?

Discuss.

1 torment would be a bigger hit on DPS than 1 bleed in PVE, and probably wouldn’t make it much better for PVP.

My personal feelings on this is 2 stacks of Poison (6-8 seconds, probably 6) would be the best all around change to make it worth using in PVE (at least more so) and be useful in PVP.

What about 2 stacks of torment? It even makes sense tbh

Krysard.1364:

What about 2 stacks of torment? It even makes sense tbh

Either 2 stacks of torment for 8 seconds or 2 stacks of Poison for 6 seconds is ideal. Both would benefit PVE in the right ways, Torment would be more damage for PvP while Poison would be less bursty and instead have more Utility.

I tend to feel like the utility and less burst is smarter, especially as we recently lost some utility via chill uptime, and doesn’t lead to situations where people get loads of torment stacks and kill themselves by running around like an idiot (noob trap).

Both work, I still think Poison is a better bet. Bleed is stupid.

So this is what Karl said on Reddit to me:
“Deathly Chill previously caused every necro that was running this trait to fight with one-another, being that the damage would only apply when your own chill stack was active. This change allows the reaper to apply attrition damage to enemies through chill. The reason it’s bleed and not something like poison is that this trait is intended to be a DPS add instead of another debilitating effect.”

That said, I hope it ends up as 2 Torment for 8 seconds.

I’m sure they tested it with more stacks and different conditions. Something like torment wouldn’t be so bad if you’re looking at what one reaper can do, but would get stupid fast the more reapers you have stacking chill. That said, bleeding sucks.

about the change:
pros:
no more fighting over chill applications across the board. very hard to keep track of.

cons:
its way less bad kitten feeling.
pve armor changes (chill related runes are cheap though)

meh:
the damage ramifications of the change are ok. a bit weak but more opportunities to apply it evens out.

I think its pretty important that the trait contributes more to short duration/high intensity damage. That was a really key component, that the trait allowed condi builds to have a difficult to remove, but relatively middle level (compared to actual condi burst) damage output.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

I’m sure they tested it with more stacks and different conditions.

You must be new here.

If i were a dev i would change it to: whenever you strike a chilled foe you apply 1 stack of torment for 5 sec (1 sec icd per target)

Basically making it so that picking up this trait means your targets will always have torment on them.

I don’t like this change. From a damage side it’s a straight nerf in dps, from a mechanics side, it makes condi necro feel kinda bland again. We barley get burn, the poison is alright but again we go back to pretty much bleeding as the end all be all
For pvp this flat out sucks. Can’t do enough condi dmg as Elle or guardian or hevk even theife since most people can cleanse them so fast. Now we lose any kind of “burst” condi that’s reliable. And chilling victory becomes mostly useless.

TLDR : chill changes are bad, they should have left the condi dmg and reduced the duration or left thendurrations and left the condi dmg

Lexan.5930:

I don’t like this change. From a damage side it’s a straight nerf in dps, from a mechanics side, it makes condi necro feel kinda bland again. We barley get burn, the poison is alright but again we go back to pretty much bleeding as the end all be all
For pvp this flat out sucks. Can’t do enough condi dmg as Elle or guardian or hevk even theife since most people can cleanse them so fast. Now we lose any kind of “burst” condi that’s reliable. And chilling victory becomes mostly useless.

TLDR : chill changes are bad, they should have left the condi dmg and reduced the duration or left the durrations and left the condi dmg

Some good points. I personally could get behind 2 stacks of torment, but may need a small ICD in terms of pvp. That would allow some pretty high torment burst.

Its true this change/nerf did fix the pve chill bug.

Also still think power creep is quite high in the game.

I sometimes played leetos stupid gs thing, basically power amulet and chill trait.

It ticked for 200 base, and could reach 400s with might and vuln but at that point youre already winning.
Anyway, the 200-400 dps felt perfect. It wasnt enough to just kill someone with it especially stalling on glass canon is hard, yet it did enough reliable pressure.

So i think the thing needs its 200 base dps, vote for 2x bleeds, and duration being the balance factor

Infect.2738:

Some good points. I personally could get behind 2 stacks of torment, but may need a small ICD in terms of pvp. That would allow some pretty high torment burst.

Its true this change/nerf did fix the pve chill bug.

Also still think power creep is quite high in the game.

The problem is, yeah, it’s tricky. Burst potential is there, but it’s otherwise garbage. If you buff it you run into the POTENTIAL condition spike, but let me be honest, even without an ICD, I really don’t think it’d be a major issue. There are already similar, if not worse, condition spikes out there. Having it spikey just means if it gets washed off, you lost all that damage, or they ate it all. If you start putting ICD on a proc that procs off another proc with a CD, you run into the issue of things just feeling horrible and unpredictable. I don’t think it’d be a big deal since the nerf to the whirl, that was my #1 concern, and still might be a little high, but outside of that ONE combo (RS 5→4) there’s no issue.

I’m just not sure having a single impactful burst combo is worth making a trait terrible over. Now, if they put a 1 sec ICD on it but removed the ICD on Chilling Darkness and other things like that, perhaps we could talk about it then. But having ICD on top of ICDs just feels bad, and frankly, I like building knowing whenever I do “x” I can expect “y” as a return. And seeing as how Root+Torch Ranger burst can do about the exact same thing as RS5+4, i don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s a burst combo every 26+ seconds, and usually VERY obvious. And as it stands, the trait is objectively undertuned.

It’s an interesting debate, but I do think Torment is the way to go, at least it has the potential of counter play (not moving) while shrugging it off, and while stunned in RS5 you’re also not moving, so that’s a little mitigating factor compared to upping the Bleed count.

ronpierce.2760:

Infect.2738:

Some good points. I personally could get behind 2 stacks of torment, but may need a small ICD in terms of pvp. That would allow some pretty high torment burst.

Its true this change/nerf did fix the pve chill bug.

Also still think power creep is quite high in the game.

The problem is, yeah, it’s tricky. Burst potential is there, but it’s otherwise garbage. If you buff it you run into the POTENTIAL condition spike, but let me be honest, even without an ICD, I really don’t think it’d be a major issue. There are already similar, if not worse, condition spikes out there. Having it spikey just means if it gets washed off, you lost all that damage, or they ate it all. If you start putting ICD on a proc that procs off another proc with a CD, you run into the issue of things just feeling horrible and unpredictable. I don’t think it’d be a big deal since the nerf to the whirl, that was my #1 concern, and still might be a little high, but outside of that ONE combo (RS 5->4) there’s no issue.

I’m just not sure having a single impactful burst combo is worth making a trait terrible over. Now, if they put a 1 sec ICD on it but removed the ICD on Chilling Darkness and other things like that, perhaps we could talk about it then. But having ICD on top of ICDs just feels bad, and frankly, I like building knowing whenever I do “x” I can expect “y” as a return. And seeing as how Root+Torch Ranger burst can do about the exact same thing as RS5+4, i don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s a burst combo every 26+ seconds, and usually VERY obvious. And as it stands, the trait is objectively undertuned.

It’s an interesting debate, but I do think Torment is the way to go, at least it has the potential of counter play (not moving) while shrugging it off, and while stunned in RS5 you’re also not moving, so that’s a little mitigating factor compared to upping the Bleed count.

Exactly. With the new trait, I could condiburst someone, but the problem is that 10 extra stacks of bleed thanks to the trait doesnt tick for shiet, and because now is the only reliable damaging condition, it gets easily cleansed. On the other hand, with 2 stacks of torment, you can get nice counterable bursts of dmg, toning down necro compared to chill dmg and giving a new combat mechanic.

I agree. Poison make most sense, but torment is good alternative as well.
6sec poison instead 8sec of bleed or 2×3sec poison.

A lot of you guys agree with the changes?
Thats interesting because i will not touch my necro again, since there is no dmg potential anymore with a lousy 80dmg/s tick for 8 seconds compared to the previous 450/s for 2 seconds my chill gave me.
Don’t know how you can think this is even close to reasonable but i got to look for another class that would be fun in pve anymore.

I like the new changes a lot. Deathly Chill needed something to be done. I can see torment as a valid option over bleed, however then it would lose the synergy with Blood Bond. Also, I don’t know that torment really fits with anything else the necro has. Just my two cents.

Congrats on creating a more useful thread about the changes then the QQ ones I’ve seen so far.

Why not just a short duration burn? It would still do decent damage and keep it more bursty instead of attrition. Also it would still reward stacking chills whereas now it’s just wasting CD’s.
Plus it even makes sense realistically (Extreme cold can cause skin to burn)

This change combined with stab change and less chill output in genersl is the problem. Go fight a mesmer.

Just though about somehting that I think could make the trait interesting again. With the right numbers of course.
What about making it act like this:

1 bleed evertime you apply chill (like now)
+ increase the damage of your bleeds by X% on chilled foes

It think this would give good synergy with the trait helping to apply aditional bleeds and at the same time buff the damage of your other bleeds while you have got your opponent chilled.
This way chill on it’s own won’t be as dangerous anymore. If the enemy cleanses your bleeds the damage is gone even if he is still chilled. And the other way around if he cleanses the chill and still got some bleed on him, he still maged to reduce your condi damge and of course get rid of the usual chill debuffs.