Guild Wars 2

I would have to throw in with others, vampirism would be a much better build if it was a way to gain hp well in DS.

JonPeters.5630:

This line [Death Magic] receives a lot of discussion as well, but any proposal we talk about always ends up with more work than we have time to build, much less test.

Jon

.

… but any proposal we talk about always ends up with more work than we have time to build….

Jon

.

… more work than we have time to build….

Jon

.

JonPeters.5630:

…more work….

Jon

There we are!

Paint me cynical, but that is why I think the changes are the way they are. Certainly they are not “lazy”, and I think they understand our complaints with the Necromancer (how could they not with hundreds of posts spanning several months), but what seems to be the case is that any changes made would require foundational rework, which they seem to have no intent on doing. Thus we get “shaves” and “small changes”.

In fact, perhaps this is also why we still have Dumbfire. Prior to this trait, Necros were nearly bottom-of-the-barrel in tournament play, but with its advent we have a place in tournaments. ANet realizes this, and knows that if they remove Dumbfire, they are stuck with, once again, a class that doesn’t belong anywhere, which would force them to look at the fundamentals of the class and address those issues. They don’t want to do this since it requires “more work than we have time to build”. As long as they can say “every class has a build that works in tournaments”, they’ll use that as a scapegoat to avoid addressing the shortcomings of a class.

Side note: To address Jon’s statement about Blood Magic, consider this:

• Consider dagger main-hand (our fastest auto-attack attack weapon).
• Traited with Bloodthirst, Vampiric Precision, Vampiric.
• Assume 50% chance to critical.
• Assume there is always a target to hit.
• Assume 1123 Healing Power

You get a 4-hit dagger chain in 2 seconds. So that’s a total of 120 hits per minute. Assuming we get 50% criticals during this time, the amount of healing per second would be:

• [120(45) + 60(56)]/60 = 146

So that’s 146 Health per second. However, this requires a foe to hit and engaging in active combat. Regeneration, on the other hand, heals for 270 per second at this point, with or without combat (and if a Necro doesn’t run Staff, the access to regen diminishes greatly). I’ll avoid getting into other class-specific heals, but the point stands that the amount of heals generated from vampiric traits is nominal at best. However, if siphoning worked in Death Shroud, that may open up some builds as well as benefit our “attrition”.

Take care and good luck with the week, everyone!

@OmegaProject.9831

That would explain putrid mark. They could probably make a good argument for how the putrid mark bug was actually intended if it didn’t go on full cooldown. The fact that it goes on full cooldown indicates that this wasn’t a balance fix, it is a bug they don’t have the time or resources to fix.

I hope this won’t earn an infraction but I feel it needs to be said. I, of course, don’t pretend to speak for all posters, but read these forums for the necro and the following stands out pretty clearly.

Again we see our concerns being “dismissed” (almost contemptously) with throw-away rhetoric that IS NOT substantiated in any way especially given the overwhelming evidence/experiences of players who main necros (Putrid Mark thread in Bugs forum and the reaction to Blood changes last patch that did basically nothing but tread water for example)..

I really enjoy the necro in whatever minor way I play it (limited for lots of reasons) but I am constantly incensed by the way player concerns are ignored and dismissed.
We are not told what expectations the devs have of our class other than high level vague meta or, the other extreme, by focussing at one-skill-at-a-time level….with NO in between that players vcan work on and no analysis amalgamating outcomes with other changes.

While I do appreciate Jon’s time in posting, his comments thus far, as those of others on other issues, simply reinforces player perceptions of these statements being out of touch with player reality.

I noticed in the Ele/Mes threads there was considerable to-and-fro on issues with Jon providing good background info in support of their direction….this is a far cry from the unsubstantiated glib “one liners” we seem to get simply to shut down discussion. From a long work history dealing with similar issues in the software/finance industry as an auditor/systems auditor, I have found that these sorts of approach/behaviour are sometimes used to mask ineptitude or lack of knowledge/skill. I hope this is not the case here and I am not saying it is but the players are not seeing much to counter.

I am not pointing this out simply as a QQ but maybe, just maybe, the devs don’t realise why players are expressing their futility at not being HEARD and being more than a bit abrupt at times. We are human and react to contempt……..even if only to get some form okittennowledgement that someone is listening sometimes.

edit: the kittken above ….. “acknowledgement” preceeded by “of” ? really

Interesting point, and I tend to agree. Necromancer has been a pain in the balance team’s kitten since alpha, and I think it just keeps getting more and more problematic, because:
1) We’re over a year past launch, and we still see fundamental issues with a lot of things, but this iwouldn’t be a problem except for
2) It feels like in many areas our wheels are spinning in mud, so to speak

To address 1, lets face it, this game is still a work in progress, and to think or expect a one year old game to have better progress than GW2 is at is just unrealistic. However, we expect a certain amount of progress to be made.

Look at Warriors in PvP, for example. They had issues for ages. However, the things holding them back are being addressed. They were scaled way too strongly, and are being brought back, but if you play as a Warrior, you can see true progress in the class.

This is the same feeling that MM builds get. We’ve had problems, but we can see ANet slowly bringing us to better places. Siphoning feels better now. Minion skills are more responsive, as well as the minions themselves. There are issues, but they are more issues intrisic to the class that won’t be fixed until the whole class is better as a whole. We kind of see the same thing happening to Wells (who had massive CD reductions) and two spectrals (SA and SWall are both amazing now). And in my opinion, we’ve seen Blood Magic go in the right direction (though not “there” yet).

However, in many other respects things still feel like we’re stuck in place, and have been. Transformations remain bugged. Death Shroud remains a sub-par for a true defensive mechanic. Condition Necros got made terrible via OP buffs, and are now potentially facing nerfs that will force us into mindless 1 spam to be remotely useful (more so than now). Blood Magic and Support is still sub-par on Necros, and our offensive support seemingly gets swatted with a nerf-bat every time we turn around, because of other screw ups they did.

The problem is that every step forward with us is accompanied by a step backwards. We get torment and great offensive changes, and in the same patch get screwed by Dhuumfire. We get a massive DS buff, at the same time as having DS hit as a defensive mechanic. SA and SWall, as well as other utilities get great improvements, while we see things like SWalk and CB get smacked.

I’d really like to have developers take time out of their day to do one show, per week, for 8 weeks about each class. Not those silly guides, but sit down for 30 minutes to an hour. Don’t tell us anything you don’t want to, or would get you in trouble (like talking about things in iteration), but just sit down and say:
1) This is where we feel X class is, in each of the three game modes.
2) This is where we want them to be
3) Here are some very general plans to get them there

Just give everyone the hope that you guys have a vision, and know where to take it. I’ve talked to some devs before, some of them really understand where they want this to go, and it actually gives you hope when they say it.

But it would be massive to have a video where I can just point back and say “they know what they are doing, even if I have to wait a while”. People are okay with waiting, they just need to know that they have something to wait for.

14 months of waiting…….water….i …neeed….w…a…t…..e…..r.

Agree though Bhawb…we need info (other than rhetoric) on which we can build some hope…..other professions get it…..it is not like we are asking to be “special snowflakes”….just treated equally.

Based on Jon’s analysis and response. I can understand his decisions and why he thinks this way.

He wants at least ONE condimancer build to be viable. He thinks it ‘HAS’ to be at least dhuumfire + terror always at least. He doesn’t mind if other builds of condimancer are not viable just as long as a dhuumfire terror build can be played at high level so someone at necromancer can ‘get’ to high level with it.

This is thought process I think he has for wanting to move dhuumfire down and moving terror up. By moving dhuumfire down he thinks it will ‘improve build diversity’ when in fact it will probably lessen it and call for dhuumfire being used on ABSOLUTELY necessary for condi necros to remain viable as their bleed damage is being nerfed on mark of blood which did have a good amount of bleed damage pressure if already in a fight.

Mark of blood:
Why Jon thinks its the best skill in the game. He looks at marks and thinks as them as super versatile and can be used everywhere, on stealth, as traps, defensively, offensively, as instant cast. He sees their cast time, hard to dodge no easy animation and thinks it super good.

He looks at the skill objectively and not in real time when you play with a necro against high level players. Marks can be easily easily countered and have some of the lowest condi dps in the game. If you ever try to kill someone with only marks its absolutely terrible. They ‘can’ be dodged now and many top level players dodge them consistently. No one uses greater marks now making it much harder to hit. And a missed mark is a complete 0 in dps. And top levels never walk in marks that are dropped on the ground. Only new players do. They can be rolled into negating all the dps. Adds eat the marks for you. Ele summons, spirits, clones/phantasms. And staff auto is complete trash as a condi necro. It builds life force it hits things sure ( but high levels move around so much they almost never hit giving no life force) unless they are an add build which you need tons of life force for anyways. But at least 40-50% of the dps was from mark of blood. I would say 20% from Chillbains 15% from putrid (more if condis transfered) and 5% from reaper and the rest staff auto.

Weakening Shroud
While it is an incredible strong ability. I do not mind having the bleed entirely moved per Ascii’s post. I would love a 10ICD on demand PbAoE weakness. Or better yet PbAoE blind. Maybe a blind on shroud removal. Like Veil Lift or some darkness veil or something. Thatd be a cool mechanic. As our weakest moment is not when we enter shroud but its rather when we exit shroud. When we exit shroud everyone and I mean everyone who knows how to fight necros attacks you and then you’re on the ground, and then you die.

Terror:
I forgot about the suggestions the necro forum has had about having dhuumfire and terror being both grandmaster in curse line. Sure itd be an overloaded line but it would for sure increase build diversity. As while the 30 in curses would be mandatory to get one of the amazing grandmasters. The remaining 40 points could be spent elsewhere.

Curses Line:

Toxic landing moved to spite line. Swap 1.
Remove spiteful removal (its complete trash in PvE outside of leveling and absolutely useless in PvP unless you’re in WvW and lots of trash stuff to kill) Remove 1

Dhuumfire is now grandmaster curse. Swap 1.

Terror is grandmaster. Up 1.
Lingering curse is master. Down 1

Withering precision is adept. Down 2.
Weakening shroud master. Up 1.

Banshee’s Wail should be in Spite Master (it is much more power mancer based with high amounts of control) Almost all condimancers go dagger offhand as it provides better condi control and weakening shroud for offensive/defensive pressure. Swap 1.
Spiteful Marks should be removed. The damage (as mentioned for marks is terrible. Mark of blood scaling is terrible for power so is Chillbains, the only one with good scaling is putrid

Master corruption down 1 to adept
And either reaper’s precision or chilling blindness to master. I would only move these to master if they got buffs to them though. As it is now, almost no one uses it still. Even though you ‘say’ they’re great. Like objectively chilling blindness is fantastic but in practice its trash. We do not have that many sources of blindness (outside plague, dagger offhand, and utilities). Chilling blind would need to be 2s of chill for me to consider even using it tbh. Reaper Precision I am fond of cause I just like the life force possibility even though the actual chance of life force per hit with rabids is about 10-14% which is fairly low considering our rate of attack. Reaper’s precision would need to be 66% chance for life force on crit to be master.

Hemophilia I think is in a good spot. Same with spectral.

Focused rituals is in a good spot. However this is the upside and chance of putting it in the adept or master spite line and forcing players to choose traits and also increasing build diversity. Currently the 30 10 0 0 30 DS Powermancer is too rampant as its the only build that hits all the good points. By putting focused rituals in spite you can open up more well builds that go deep into blood magic and then some into spite. Or the 30 10 0 0 30 build now has 10 points to move around as they like. Theres the chance of putting it adept and buffing some adepts into usefulness. Maybe increasing retalliation duration on spiteful spirit. Not sure lots of possibilities though.

Dhuumfire:
So this is the money trait at the moment. And I think in its current incarceration it should be moved to grandmaster and into curses. And by forcing people to pick it or terror, you can also theoretically rebuff dhuumfire to its PVE equivalent as there is no terror added damage on top of it. You can still terror someone but they’ll just be stunned while they have a burning on top of them. Which lots of professions can do, and do well. Looking at our engi brethren or condi warriors with longbow/hammer.

Now as the replacement for what would be the grandmaster for the spite line. I was thinking of a variable vulnerability proccing based on life force pool. This would be equivalent to an adrenaline burst skill but would count as the next on hit DS1 with an ICD of like 20s. 0 – 33 , 33- 66, 66- 100. First stage is 5 stacks of vulnerability for 10s, second is 10 stacks for 10s, last is 15 stacks for 15s. This trait also has some possible PVE implications too. This idea can be replaced with blindness, or chill.

Death magic.
I think this line should be about blind traits and minions. They seem the most defensive and inline with necromancers to me. Necros dont have enough blinds imo. Could do weakness but we already have plenty of that.

Oh the reason necros got viable is cause they just got massive overworked compared to all others during that vital patch back in June I think? I think the tipping point was the addition of more condi covers being DS5 and the burning. BUt the burning doesnt need to be there just additional condi cover instead of nerfing weapon sources of condi damage.

Dear Jon,

Another thought – while you’re sorting out these balance things, could you give some time to to our underwater abilities?

Signet of Undeath, Enfeebling Blood and pet summon skills work underwater and use the above water animation. Animations are expensive and I totally understand sometimes designers need to compromise and use placeholders or prioritise things.

Wells do not work underwater. Presumably because the animation would look goofy, or because the ranged cast trait would be weird to use. However, I wouldn’t mind either if I could use wells underwater.

Please make a quick pass over these and re-enable PBAoE well casts in the water. Wells not working underwater makes a large part of the blood spec non-viable, as the moment your butt hits H2O your traits stop working. I don’t mind if the ranged cast function stops working, I’m just wanting to get my wells back.

Thanks!

lunacrous.6751:

unleashed.8679:

Death Magic:

• Reanimator (5): Merge this trait with any other minion trait. If I don’t use minions this is wasted 5 points merge it with minion master (III) and add “+20 toughness for every condition on you”
• Protection of the Hord (15): Same as reanimator, non minion masters get nothing. merge with Flesh of the master (X) and add probably a “gain toughness based on DS level” not sure here, but it should be something with +toughness because of deadly strength

These two really need to happen. Death Magic should be more than just the Minion tree. It has some traits I love for other builds (okay, maybe just Greater Marks), but going down it feels like such a waste with the first two minors being so purely minion focused.

Yes I think this is one of the most important changes to allow multiple necro builds. Right now it feels so bad to choose death magic, because thee are so many drawbacks.
But Blood magic needs some changes, too. Not that it is a bad line, as i mentioned, it is probably the best line we have. But it combines 3 playstyles, that could be combined and this reduces build diversity.

@CHIPS:

I agree with your posts completely. But I think (hope) that “PvP only” means sPvP, not WvW. Most of the time WvW gets the PvE-balance, like Lame-fire.

Berullos.6928:

Weakening Shroud
While it is an incredible strong ability. I do not mind having the bleed entirely moved per Ascii’s post. I would love a 10ICD on demand PbAoE weakness.

Per flow’s post
And yeah, I’ll say it again: a longer icd for Weakening Shroud does not promote “bring down raw dps but maintain sustain elements”. All it does is reduce survivability, but still allow for the same condi burst when the trait is off cd.
If you want to reduce weakness uptime, then do just that: reduce the weakness duration of the trait. Because for necros it’s not about uptime anyway, but being able to apply it for a short amount of time when we need it the most.

flow.6043:

@CHIPS:

I agree with your posts completely. But I think (hope) that “PvP only” means sPvP, not WvW. Most of the time WvW gets the PvE-balance, like Lame-fire.

Berullos.6928:

Weakening Shroud
While it is an incredible strong ability. I do not mind having the bleed entirely moved per Ascii’s post. I would love a 10ICD on demand PbAoE weakness.

Per flow’s post
And yeah, I’ll say it again: a longer icd for Weakening Shroud does not promote “bring down raw dps but maintain sustain elements”. All it does is reduce survivability, but still allow for the same condi burst when the trait is off cd.
If you want to reduce weakness uptime, then do just that: reduce the weakness duration of the trait. Because for necros it’s not about uptime anyway, but being able to apply it for a short amount of time when we need it the most.

We know by now that you do not like dhuumfire. Please stop using it and you will be fine. No need for your personal vendetta against it.

JonPeters.5630:

Death Magic
On the defensive side, the Blood and Soul Reaping necros are starting to feel pretty good. The Death line on the other hand is too focused on minions. From Reanimator, which we have heard over and over feels bad as a minor trait, to the fact that 1/3 of the remaining traits are minion traits, to finally the fact that both grandmaster traits are minion traits.

Jon

I PvP most of the time when I’m on, I have never seen a successful build that wasn’t 30, 20, 0, 0, 20 or 30, 10, 0, 0, 30. I run 0, 30, 20, 0, 20 out of pure stubbornness just because I don’t want to go 30 deep in power just for Dhuumfire.

Can we get a cleave on axe autoattack please?

Sheobix.8796:

From playing SE, CoE, and some WvW yesterday… conditions are simply not cutting it for viability these days. Gone are the days of just pumping massive condition duration and condition damage and dropping BiP, MoB, Enf x2 from DS and Critting like mad to keep the stacks maintained.

People are cleansing like crazy now. They even released runes specifically designed to combat necromancers and conditions. Is it time to push the power based necro?

And while people think “oh god, power based necros.. why not grab a warrior or thief?”
Really consider the DS mechanic for a second. People who play a tanky toon like I do know how amazing DS is for damage soaking and dealing damage once you get your armor rating high. Just consider it.

Problem with axe in WvW is its range, really invites you to get focused in any group fight. Power makes you a close in fighter, and no matter how tanky you can be, and strong in a 1v1, in bigger engagements Necro doesn’t have the mobility, escapes, stability or dodges to consistently face tank multiple people.

Conditions also gave us a support role capable of turning around a fight and being a menace if we were left alone, power based builds play much more just as weak dps version of warriors and thieves.

Necros are going to be sorry when Dhuumfire / Terror gets nerfed at this point and the class is back at the bottom for likely months due to the constant whittling away they’ve done to all other trees and skills the last couple months to already account for this combo.

Considering how much more cleansing and condi counter has come into the game since that point, Necro cannot go back to pre-dhuumfire builds, because they’ve all been nerfed in addition to the above realities.

Bleeds as a primary source of damage aren’t going to cut it ever again.

There appears to be lots of developer confusion about not just how to get this class where it needs to be, but even about what it should be.

Necro has never successfully been attrition in this game (well since beta) and never will be as long as they stick to the complete hardline about our only defense being facetank, with rare stability, no invuln, block, etc. Calling for nerf of our burst is pointless without a simultaneous solution about how to gain real attrition.

aspirine.6852:

We know by now that you do not like dhuumfire. Please stop using it and you will be fine. No need for your personal vendetta against it.

I don’t use it. It’s nothing personal, I’m just calling it for what it is, and I’m not the only one.

flow.6043:

aspirine.6852:

We know by now that you do not like dhuumfire. Please stop using it and you will be fine. No need for your personal vendetta against it.

I don’t use it. It’s nothing personal, I’m just calling it for what it is, and I’m not the only one.

Okplease enlighten me with whats wrong with this grandmaster trait. Is it too long, too often, too much damage? IMO it’s one of the things needed for condition mancers and without it would hurt them a lot.
Forgive me if you explained it in other topics but usualy I see you posting about how much you dislike it =)

Curses IV – Weakening Shroud. Increase recharge from 15 to 25.

This will nearly destroy all 30/10/0/0/30 (or similar) Dagger/Dagger[Focus] + Staff Hybruidbuilds. In PvE they are already weaker…and in PvP + WvsW…now too

Why do u guys kill “exotic” Builds and gameplays? Build varity will never happen if rare Builds are losing their gameplay keys.

aspirine.6852:

Is it too long, too often, too much damage?

All of it.

Complaints about it go back to the day this trait was implemented. A quick google search will reveal what is but the tip of the iceberg:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Please-nerf-necro-s/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-necromancer-thoughts/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Dear-Anet-do-not-completely-nerf-Necro/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Dhuumfire-has-upset-everyone
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/I-ll-say-it-Dhuumfire-needs-to-go/

dhuumfire is not strong. Even with 100% cindi duration and 3100 candi damage in WvW it adds 6*1100 damage damage every 10 seconds. that can be cleansed. Or in other words it increases your DPS by 660. For PvP it is even lower with (750*3) 225 DPS. These numbers ignore the fact, that it wont trigger direct after the 10s iCD.

This also ignores the fact, that it can be cleansed so it deals not the full damage. The only thing, that makes dhummfire strong is the fact, that you can’t miss it, because this will not trigger the iCD. But that is the same for every on hit effect.

E: oh and one thing, in WvW most people use -40% condi duration so it is only 3*1100 → 330DPS there

Just wanted to put in one more voice saying blood magic is no where near ok. I literally laughed out loud when I read the line, the after it sank in a little it was just depressing. With every balance patch and every dev post there is always something that slips that proves they don’t understand the necromancer class at all. I don’t even know where to begin offering suggestions if the devs are so clueless they think blood magic/siphoning “feels good”. Sorry if that comes off rude but I know I’m not the only one here who is getting sick to death (pardon the pun) of months of totally out of touch balance changes, and an apparent lack of understanding from any of the devs posting.

I’ll repeat a suggestion I’ve seen before (Bhawb I think)

If they are worried about AE builds getting OP with lifeleech that is actually worth a kitten ; then just add a 1 sec internal cooldown to the traits like what was done with lifeleech food. Then both single target and AE builds get roughly the same benefit from vampiric traits and they can be scaled actual sustain levels.

Lifestealing in principle should be better as an active aggression mechanic than flipping passive regen boons anyways.

This also intersects with DS and health regen; in reality, DS just serves as a poor delay against enemy focus fire; very little of what it does helps stay alive long enough for your team to do anything because it degens when active, there is a cool-down between uses if you try to meter it finely; and you have to work to build it back up in time to absorb the next inevitable spike. It is inferior in every way to evasion, block, aegis, stealth, and invulnerability.

And all of those allow you to regain health to boot, and some are spammable based on build.

And while you are in it you lose access to non DS utility you may have built for.

We’d be honestly far closer to on par defensively if the DS skills were F key skills that consumed lifeforce on use but did not block access to the rest of our skills.

Death and Blood are still pretty much garbage unless you are an MM. Nothing to see there.

The shave to Weakening Shroud was warranted, because it was just too good. I don’t think Mark of Blood really needed the nerf, but it isn’t that big a deal either. After this patch you might just have to accept that there is no defense at all for a Necro and just go Hemophilia in that spot.

RE: Dhuumfire – It doesn’t matter. This trait is not what kills people. I can run a Terror Necro with Close to Death in that spot and still be viable. No point blaming Dhuumfire. It isn’t very good TBH, it just gets taken because the + condi duration is much more valuable.

Overkillengine.6084:

I’ll repeat a suggestion I’ve seen before (Bhawb I think)

If they are worried about AE builds getting OP with lifeleech that is actually worth a kitten ; then just add a 1 sec internal cooldown to the traits like what was done with lifeleech food. Then both single target and AE builds get roughly the same benefit from vampiric traits and they can be scaled actual sustain levels.

But 1v2/1v3 is one of the scenarios where necro has the most problems, since its main defence only blocks a fixed amount of damage, unlike said blocks, evades and whatnot (there are some suggestions to limit the amount of life force you can lose in a certain amount of time, but thats probably not gonna happen. just like the healing/leech while in DS).

And thats were lifeleech could help, especially because they scale with the number of enemies. Spectral had that too until it got butchered with that internal cooldown.

unleashed.8679:

dhuumfire is not strong. Even with 100% cindi duration and 3100 candi damage in WvW it adds 6*1100 damage damage every 10 seconds. that can be cleansed. Or in other words it increases your DPS by 660. For PvP it is even lower with (750*3) 225 DPS. These numbers ignore the fact, that it wont trigger direct after the 10s iCD.

This also ignores the fact, that it can be cleansed so it deals not the full damage. The only thing, that makes dhummfire strong is the fact, that you can’t miss it, because this will not trigger the iCD. But that is the same for every on hit effect.

E: oh and one thing, in WvW most people use -40% condi duration so it is only 3*1100 -> 330DPS there

/slow clap
What more needs be said…

Wont be taking necro for fractals anymore. Weakening shroud nerf means theres no longer a reason to take necro in fractals (unless you buff withering precision so we can actually apply weakness to large amounts of trash mobs? Make it a target specific icd like you have done for other skills please).

flow.6043:

aspirine.6852:

Is it too long, too often, too much damage?

All of it.

Complaints about it go back to the day this trait was implemented. A quick google search will reveal what is but the tip of the iceberg:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Please-nerf-necro-s/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-necromancer-thoughts/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Dear-Anet-do-not-completely-nerf-Necro/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Dhuumfire-has-upset-everyone
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/I-ll-say-it-Dhuumfire-needs-to-go/

Ah ok, I can see it’s probably too much for pvp. But I am all for splitting pvp/pve skills. It’s not too much for pve(no such thing as too much there)and wvw with all the consumables and condition clears there.

RashanDale.3609:

Overkillengine.6084:

I’ll repeat a suggestion I’ve seen before (Bhawb I think)

If they are worried about AE builds getting OP with lifeleech that is actually worth a kitten ; then just add a 1 sec internal cooldown to the traits like what was done with lifeleech food. Then both single target and AE builds get roughly the same benefit from vampiric traits and they can be scaled actual sustain levels.

But 1v2/1v3 is one of the scenarios where necro has the most problems, since its main defence only blocks a fixed amount of damage, unlike said blocks, evades and whatnot (there are some suggestions to limit the amount of life force you can lose in a certain amount of time, but thats probably not gonna happen. just like the healing/leech while in DS).

And thats were lifeleech could help, especially because they scale with the number of enemies. Spectral had that too until it got butchered with that internal cooldown.

Oh I know. I was one of the people that suggested giving DS an internal loss per second throttle to keep it on par with the defense options other classes get.

The reason I threw my hat in with a life-steal ICD is right now even in well+mark builds that offer peak AE; a vampire build is crap in group pvp. It does decent in trash pve because mobs are stupid and don’t spike like players do. Higher tier pve it becomes useless again due to one-shots though.

aspirine.6852:

flow.6043:

aspirine.6852:

Is it too long, too often, too much damage?

All of it.

Complaints about it go back to the day this trait was implemented. A quick google search will reveal what is but the tip of the iceberg:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Please-nerf-necro-s/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-necromancer-thoughts/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Dear-Anet-do-not-completely-nerf-Necro/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Dhuumfire-has-upset-everyone
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/I-ll-say-it-Dhuumfire-needs-to-go/

Ah ok, I can see it’s probably too much for pvp. But I am all for splitting pvp/pve skills. It’s not too much for pve(no such thing as too much there)and wvw with all the consumables and condition clears there.

splitting skills is bad, because then we have two different games. To be honest we have this situation right now, that WvW/PvE is able to get 30% more stats compared to PvP and so this splits need to happen, but do we have to split ever skill to compensate this or, what I think is better, just rebalance this gap between the stats? With these 30% difference in WvW some builds are strong, that wouldn’t be able in PvP. I think there wont be any balance with this huge difference there.

I’ll state the obvious:

FIX condition damage! FIX IT! All this dancing around the actual balance issues, does nothing to improve the viability of the necromancer profession. All this is, is moving statistics around a bit. One bleed less here, one second of recharge longer there. What are you really changing? Look, if you’re not going to fix the actual problems with the class, then just leave it alone. Why even mention the necromancer in the patch notes at all?

Condition damage needs to scale so it works in PVE, even during giant group events where everyone and their mother is stacking bleeds and vulnerability. The condition cap is the biggest obstacle for this condition focused class. It doesn’t work as it is now.

Reanimator needs to be changed. It is a worthless trait, that hinders us more than it helps us.

Defiant needs a redesign. Fear and control are the necromancer’s main defenses, along with Death Shroud, and to make every boss and champion in the game immune to that, breaks the balance.

Necromancers do need more mobility. We all know it, even if the balance team doesn’t want to give in.

Necromancers need their invulnerability back. Death Shroud soaks up a lot of damage, but it spills into our actual health pool. This does not scale with some of the insta-kill attacks that some bosses pack in PVE. As long as necromancers don’t get a replacement invulnerability skill, there is a class unbalance. We are the only class that has to rely on 2 dodges, and nothing else.

And as a previous poster stated, wells should work under water. Make it a bubble instead of a ring. Underwater combat is lacking for all classes across the board.

Meanwhile in PVE

Meanwhile, the necromancer is one of the poorest classes in PVE. Our damage output is poor in Fractals and dungeons. And then one balance patch later, we do even less damage. One more balance patch, we have longer cool downs, and do even less damage. One more balance patch, we lose our Death Shroud’s ability to survive insta-kills. Yet another, even lower damage numbers and longer recharge….

Is anyone paying attention to what is happening to this class in PVE?

First of all I admin I’m casual player who only occasional joins WvW. My input is not based on any actual testing, only on gut’s feeling.
I don’t understand why people, even among necro community dislike Dhuumfire so much. True, it doesn’t make sense lore wise but as a skill is first thing we can say is useful for Necro. While I read from links provided from Flow, it seems everybody went “Necro can do sth now – let’s nerf it”. Dhuumfire is good, powerful even in right hands, but it’s not like burning can’t be cleansed. 3 second of burning in right moment can be crucial but than anything can be. We were told to learn how to DS to appreciate it, why others can’t learn how to deal with burning?

Leaving Dhuum where it is is the best idea. Why? Well, if it gets moved to adept..well..I will have to say that the Necro is OP at that point…

I am currently running 30/25/0/0/15…in a hybrid D/x melee build.

Right now in the Spite line I have 2, 10 and 11 for traits… This forces me to choose between (@ GM tier) Closer to Death and Dhuum. If you move Dhuum to Adept tier…well…I’ll definitely be selecting 2, Dhuum, and 12 (Closer to Death)… That, IMO, would be way too OP.

Regarding Terror…All I have to say is this is a LAWL that people think it is OP, I have tried it and don’t care for it. 2, maybe 3 ticks of 400ish dmg per tick…waste of a trait imo, even when there are other conditions running.

Regarding Weakening shroud, how about just leaving this trait alone? It is one of the only real useful traits the Necro has for dealing with multiple foes, in both PvE and WvW. If anything add a poison component to it and remove bleeding.

Kitedyou.1720:

Regarding Terror…All I have to say is this is a LAWL that people think it is OP, I have tried it and don’t care for it. 2, maybe 3 ticks of 400ish dmg per tick…waste of a trait imo, even when there are other conditions running.

You may wish to try a condimancer and revisit that statement – I get ticks in the order of 1200. Short range DS fear is 3×1200, SW is 2×1200, Mark is 2×1200 etc.

As a conditionmancer I prefer 240 radius staff aoes instead of dhuumfire. We had greater marks trait in adept tier before. You can nerf dhuumfire as you want but please give our greater marks back to adept tier. This really limits our options to make balanced(team support + mediocre aoe dps+ survival) builds, 180-radius blockable aoes are really useless in wvw. Their condition damage already gets wiped quickly with insane condition removal abilities of other classes in wvw, at least give our radius back please.
For terror; I would prefer longer fear duration with lower fear damage. Solution is making terror trait improve fear duration to 3-4 secs + add %50-60 lower fear damage(about 400-500 instead of 1300) For gods sake, a warrior has much longer aoe fear than us. What’s our speciality then ? We are really low on interrupting ccs while other classes have tons of spammable stuns/knockdowns to use necros as ping pong ball.
We also need direct-damage based aoe weapons for our power builds in order not to depend solely on conditions. I’m really thinking about rolling a celestial staff ele because necro and condition system look like going worse.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Defiant needs a redesign. Fear and control are the necromancer’s main defenses, along with Death Shroud, and to make every boss and champion in the game immune to that, breaks the balance.

it’s not only defiant. a lot of our defensive conditions like freeze, weakness, cripple dont have any effect cause bosses simply dont use the affected mechanics. they dont dodge, sometimes dont move at all (or just teleport anyway) and freeze seems to do next to nothing to their skill usage.

same problem with boons and boonripping btw.

Necromancers need their invulnerability back. Death Shroud soaks up a lot of damage, but it spills into our actual health pool. This does not scale with some of the insta-kill attacks that some bosses pack in PVE. As long as necromancers don’t get a replacement invulnerability skill, there is a class unbalance. We are the only class that has to rely on 2 dodges, and nothing else.

i rly wonder why the damage from pve-bosses is so over the top in the first place. subject alpha for example blasts straight through ~21k HP and 17k DS (with a decent amount of toughness). almost every other classes wouldve been killed twice or three times if they would attempt to face-tank these hits.

Oh I know. I was one of the people that suggested giving DS an internal loss per second throttle to keep it on par with the defense options other classes get.

I’m pretty sure a lot of ppl suggested that already. i mean the discussions in this forum repeat themselves every week.
This change with a throttle of like ~50% LF/sec. max wouldnt be OP at all, imo (but im sure all the warriors/guardians will cry bloody murder again anyway), it just seems that Anet is still too scared to make any big changes to our class mechanic that are actually beneficial to necs.

unleashed.8679:

dhuumfire is not strong. Even with 100% cindi duration and 3100 candi damage in WvW it adds 6*1100 damage damage every 10 seconds. that can be cleansed. Or in other words it increases your DPS by 660. For PvP it is even lower with (750*3) 225 DPS. These numbers ignore the fact, that it wont trigger direct after the 10s iCD.

This also ignores the fact, that it can be cleansed so it deals not the full damage. The only thing, that makes dhummfire strong is the fact, that you can’t miss it, because this will not trigger the iCD. But that is the same for every on hit effect.

E: oh and one thing, in WvW most people use -40% condi duration so it is only 3*1100 -> 330DPS there

How do you know “most people use -40% condi duration”? I sure as h3ll don’t use it.

Oh and BTW, my Dhuumfire hits for 3,900 dmg under full duration of 6 seconds.

Most people, IMO, are thinking “OOOh, let me do massive amounts of damage…and I’ll win everytime.” (Zerker fools). People I fight seem to be focusing on how much damage they can do in a given period of time…and hardly ever give a thought to THEIR defenses…

I chew Zerkers up because they come at me thinking I am going to be Zerk spec because I have a MH dagger… Haha!! Joke’s on them because I am hybrid and they played their cards wrong!!

Dhuumfire is what made melee Necro’s viable against thieves; before the addition of Dhuumfire, it was near impossible for me, as a melee necro, to kill a thief. The fact that they are considering nerfing Weaking Shroud is very disconcerting to me because this is needed to deal with the insane DPS warrior, illusion mesmers and thieves.

It staggers me that they would nerf one of our main defenses against bust warriors and thieves (weakness), yet not gives us any burst-defense in return for that loss. We are still the only class that has no burst defense.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Kitedyou.1720:

Regarding Terror…All I have to say is this is a LAWL that people think it is OP, I have tried it and don’t care for it. 2, maybe 3 ticks of 400ish dmg per tick…waste of a trait imo, even when there are other conditions running.

You may wish to try a condimancer and revisit that statement – I get ticks in the order of 1200. Short range DS fear is 3×1200, SW is 2×1200, Mark is 2×1200 etc.

Only if the player is a noob and runs into your wall or mark. If they don’t do either it is a waste of a trait. I love condimancers…they are so tasty to chew up after I skewer them on my daggers.

Nemesis.8593:

unleashed.8679:

dhuumfire is not strong. Even with 100% cindi duration and 3100 candi damage in WvW it adds 6*1100 damage damage every 10 seconds. that can be cleansed. Or in other words it increases your DPS by 660. For PvP it is even lower with (750*3) 225 DPS. These numbers ignore the fact, that it wont trigger direct after the 10s iCD.

This also ignores the fact, that it can be cleansed so it deals not the full damage. The only thing, that makes dhummfire strong is the fact, that you can’t miss it, because this will not trigger the iCD. But that is the same for every on hit effect.

E: oh and one thing, in WvW most people use -40% condi duration so it is only 3*1100 -> 330DPS there

/slow clap
What more needs be said…

I’m a little surprised to see our Necromancer Champion sticking up for such a simple and mindless mechanic that has likely been the motivation of some nerfs to other beloved necro skills. I would trade dhuumfire for old corrupt boon and old putrid mark in a heartbeat.

RashanDale.3609:

it’s not only defiant. a lot of our defensive conditions like freeze, weakness, cripple dont have any effect cause bosses simply dont use the affected mechanics. they dont dodge, sometimes dont move at all (or just teleport anyway) and freeze seems to do next to nothing to their skill usage.

same problem with boons and boonripping btw.

You are entirely right. A lot of bosses in PVE break the combat system due immunities to certain mechanics that are the core combat for some classes, but not all. Necromancers being so reliant on control and condition play, and lacking mobility and defense, suffer most of all from the fact that all bosses are immune to control skills and highly resistant to conditions.

I can understand bosses having more health, and being tougher to kill. But their strengths should affect all classes equally. Classes that do not rely on control and conditions, are obviously unaffected by these strengths.

Boon stripping could solve this problem, if bosses used boons that would make straight DPS ineffective. This would give boon stripping a purpose in PVE, and also level the playing field in regards to boss-immunities versus other classes. The huge DPS focus of the game is currently the biggest issue the game’s combat system faces.

@Kitedyou: well, -40% duration is one of the strongest foods in game (with current meta). Necros don’t use it, because we can throw conditions back to the enemy, get better heals, cleans a lot of them, … And we would punish ourselves with it.
Other classes can’t do this and need it to get out of CC faster. Or they are used to run away, which necros can’t do very well.

It is possible to get +3k condi duration full buffes, so with this it would be the ~1100 per tick. but that really doesn’t matter.

Nemesis.8593:

unleashed.8679:

dhuumfire is not strong. Even with 100% cindi duration and 3100 candi damage in WvW it adds 6*1100 damage damage every 10 seconds. that can be cleansed. Or in other words it increases your DPS by 660. For PvP it is even lower with (750*3) 225 DPS. These numbers ignore the fact, that it wont trigger direct after the 10s iCD.

This also ignores the fact, that it can be cleansed so it deals not the full damage. The only thing, that makes dhummfire strong is the fact, that you can’t miss it, because this will not trigger the iCD. But that is the same for every on hit effect.

E: oh and one thing, in WvW most people use -40% condi duration so it is only 3*1100 -> 330DPS there

/slow clap
What more needs be said…

You may view it this way…. rational people may view it this way…. but the community and Anet does not view it this way.

The problem is that BECAUSE OF Dummfire, everything else is getting nerfed, and just about every patch something gets hit. I am tired of trying to work out a build I enjoy when I have no idea what the next patch is going to do to ruin or weaken everything that is and isn’t 30/20/0/0/20.

I enjoyed necro before the burning patch. It was still fun, it was pretty weak in certain situations and terrible in PVE, but it was still fun.

Flash forward to today, if I take my old 0/30/10/10/20, a build I loved more than any other build. Guess what? It doesn’t work anymore because of the damage nerfing has done since our much needed “buff”.

Terror is weaker, greater marks is out of reach, terror/MOC is no longer possible without dropping lingering curses (a much needed trait with zero points in spite).

Thank goodness I don’t play in Spvp, where my septer and staff primary AOE bleeds would have gotten hit.

And still to this day, over a year after release, they view the death magic problem as impossible to fix. I have a great suggestion. Move the two MM focused minor traits into the tree, and pull out any other death magic trait as the minor, and you have just SIGNIFICANTLY improved the tree.

@ unleashed

I don’t recall seeing anyone with those food buffs in recent months…and I almost always check to see what they are running for buffs so I have a better idea of how to deal with them.

The issue is people don’t want to take the time that is required to learn a Necro and how to best use them in certain situations. So they whine and complain until things get screwed up for the people that seriously love the class.

It took me roughly a week to get my armor pieces configured just right so as to maxamize my cond. dmg., power, crit rate, crit. dmg., and toughness.

My stats, as a D/x hybrid are as follows:
Power: 2817
Crit Rate: 50%
Crit Dmg: 43%
Cond. Duration: 100%
Cond. Dmg: 981
Toughness: 1359
Boon Dur: 15% (Traveler’s Armor, 2pc)
Movement: 25% (Traveler’s Armor, 6pc)

I run Garlic Kale Sautee, and Superior Sharpening Stone.

Hey Jon,

so basicly i agree with u in some things. Problem with necro is that he have ton of usless adept traits and small trait , power necro will never be viable becouse we dont have anything to actualy mitigate the dmg ofc we have DS but it wont help us when 2-3 ppl are focusing as that why power mele necro wont be god enough for competetive team . The only good necro build is condi with terror and dhumfire , so basicly we are forced to play this becoue we dont have any options. Necro need to go in power tree to get good condi dmg and in second tree to get more dmg , but when we want to go more deffensive we gonna lose ton of our dmg and still we wont get enough sustain , so again we can play only this. Some reworks on trait need to happen , blood magic tree is complety usless compare to others . We cant play with life stealing becouse its to low to be effective.

Oh yeah last thing , ppl realy dont like renimator trait snice reales , maybe change it to “gain 1-2% life force after swaping wepon” or smt simillar

The main problem with Reanimator, is that it spawns a minion randomly. And preferably a necro likes to control when and where a minion spawns. So to have one appear at random, and having no say in the matter, just makes it a poor trait across the board.

On top of that, it’s a very useless minion. It dies really fast, and doesn’t really contribute in regards to damage.

And thirdly, not all players investing in the Death Magic line are interested in minions. But they get this free minion whether they like it or not.

The solution would seem easy then: Reanimator should be changed or replaced with a Death Magic ability that does not rely on spawning minions. It should be something useful to all necromancers that invest in the Death Magic line. Personally, I think it should improve Death Shroud in some way, since it is our main defense, and all necro-builds would probably benefit in some way from it (since we all use DS). Besides, since it is a Death Magic trait we’re discussing here, it should still have something to do with Death Magic.

The bottom line is that since our sustain is so awful

(30 points in blood is less healing than regeneration, and Necromancer’s barely have access to regeneration)

And there is no defenses against CC in the class, and there is no defense against pressure except long cooldown heals, no toughness against spike damage, and there are no good escapes….

… And despite these detriments there are no team utility either (water or fire fields, boons, finishers)…

The Bottom line for all of this is that if you want a balanced class and all of this, then the damage that the class does has to be top tier. It is not. And it is getting nerfed into the wrong direction too.

This forum would prefer team support, escapes, and real sustain to more damage, but if a class can’t live if focused, can’t support, and isn’t the absolute best at damage (better than warrior) then that class has no point.

In short:
Stop nerfing Staff. We use it because of lack of options. Your metrics are flawed when it comes to actual play.
Death is too minion focused, and it sucks.
Blood sucks. No really. It does.
Deathshroud is blatantly inferior as a defensive option compared to other mechanics in any non sPvP cagematch format. Double whammy when it comes to having little useful mobility as well within the class.

You want us to be about sustain; yet the above issues that would actually enable that paradigm are either getting nerfed, ignored, or shelved indeterminately as too much work to fix.

These complaints did not arise from a vacuum. They are the results of thousands of combined hours of play amongst us.

So please forgive us for being a bit hostile when giving this feedback and often the best we get is platitudes, metrics, and barely hidden “L2P”.

Reanimator has to be changed with some trait, that adds toughness to buff Deadly Strength (25). Minor traits are build to buff each other in the same line.

Rennoko.5731:

You may view it this way…. rational people may view it this way…. but the community and Anet does not view it this way.

The problem is that BECAUSE OF Dummfire, everything else is getting nerfed, and just about every patch something gets hit. I am tired of trying to work out a build I enjoy when I have no idea what the next patch is going to do to ruin or weaken everything that is and isn’t 30/20/0/0/20.

Dhuumfire and all the other conditions will be nerfed, until all the idiots realise, that conditions are only an other form of damage. Not OP, bur different. They are not stronger than DD, they are applied over time, they ignore defense. But they can be dodged and frevented like normal damage and be cleansed as well.
If there are peoples that don’t get this we will see more and more nerfs. But it is not dhuumfire.

Overkillengine.6084:

In short:
Stop nerfing Staff. We use it because of lack of options. Your metrics are flawed when it comes to actual play.
Death is too minion focused, and it sucks.
Blood sucks. No really. It does.
Deathshroud is blatantly inferior as a defensive option compared to other mechanics in any non sPvP cagematch format. Double whammy when it comes to having little useful mobility as well within the class.

You want us to be about sustain; yet the above issues that would actually enable that paradigm are either getting nerfed, ignored, or shelved indeterminately as too much work to fix.

These complaints did not arise from a vacuum. They are the results of thousands of combined hours of play amongst us.

Hear, hear! We are not getting any better defensive options, (we are already the class with the worst defense as it is) but we are also not the class with the best offense, and are getting that offense nerfed again. Something isn’t right here!

I’ll gladly repeat one line you said in particular, cause I hope someone on the balance team reads it:

“Deathshroud is blatantly inferior as a defensive option compared to other mechanics in any non sPvP cagematch format”