Guild Wars 2

Ya know, the new elite spec seemed promising for necros…
The leaks/rumors were true, we’re getting a torch! Finally! Reliable access to the elusive burn stacking that had left necros behind in the condi-dps rankings.

And then, we learn that Sand Shroud provides the one thing no groups actually want—Defensive Support. Snuffing out a Necro’s hopes and dreams of clawing back into the raid meta as quickly as they came.

another failed attempt to fix raid necromancers…. I’m just kidding, they are not even trying.

I am skeptical, too, but will wait and see. The expac should include an extensive balance update.

The preview did not show very much but some group dps support was on my wish list and the announcement did not suggest that.

It did suggest something like AoE, possibly traps.

From the Expansion page:

“Scourges channel their life force into the desert sands to summon biddable shades that damage enemies and create shields for their allies. They use punishment skills to torment their enemies, and they wield torches to light the path to their destruction.”

Makes me think Ritualist(ic).

Everyone complains Necro brings nothing to team, Anet gives support skills, Everyone riots.

The expac should include an extensive balance update.

In WP’s thing they have something about an amunition system that some skills now use. Since the new stuff is in next weekend I am going to assume they will drop the balance next week before the weekend

Scizzor.8137:

Everyone complains Necro brings nothing to team, Anet gives support skills, Everyone riots.

Remember when blood magic rework was going to be the support skillset to fix necro group utility?

We’re not rioting because they’re adding a support subclass. We’re rioting because we have zero faith it will be any good.

Tobias.8632:

Scizzor.8137:

Everyone complains Necro brings nothing to team, Anet gives support skills, Everyone riots.

Remember when blood magic rework was going to be the support skillset to fix necro group utility?

We’re not rioting because they’re adding a support subclass. We’re rioting because we have zero faith it will be any good.

And in 2017. We still have terrible Blood Magic traits that benefits …you guess it… No one…absolutely no one…….(sigh)

I’m a bit jelly after watching Weaver’s presentation on twitch, then watching necros and be completely underwhelmed lol.

Of course it doesn’t help when WoodenPotatoes didn’t know much about necros and didn’t get excited about it like he did with pretty much all other classes.

so its basically boon strip and barrier, the torment → burn sounds good but what torment can we put out? lol

The only protection we going to give to people is Aegis which going to get nerf if they gave the torch too many stacks. Then there is the benefit of the boon “Protection” but they going to nerf the duration down to like 3 secs like thats going to do anything for anyone.. if you think I’m lying there is a similar trait like that If when you 1st cast a well and it grants protection for like 3 WHOLE secs. so….yea fun stuff :/. Then there is Resistance but we wont get a long duration of that either and it only works on condis.

This is me guessing at what benefits the torch might provide. Keyword might.

Warrior sounds like it will get a hard counter to condi and some ranged magic, if I understand correctly, and ele might have power damage with the sword. There is some interesting stuff in the new elite traits.

I wish they would rework the combo system, though. It is too simplistic and its effects are minor for something that is supposed to be planned and coordinated by groups.

Anchoku.8142:

Warrior sounds like it will get a hard counter to condi and some ranged magic, if I understand correctly, and ele might have power damage with the sword. There is some interesting stuff in the new elite traits.

I wish they would rework the combo system, though. It is too simplistic and its effects are minor for something that is supposed to be planned and coordinated by groups.

People been saying that since very start of the game back in 2012. Nothing haven’t been done too much since then sadly.

Elvahaduken.3609:

so its basically boon strip and barrier, the torment -> burn sounds good but what torment can we put out? lol

Scepter 3 … so if they do a condi torch thing to compliment that weapon, it would be very powerful combination.

Obtena.7952:

Elvahaduken.3609:

so its basically boon strip and barrier, the torment -> burn sounds good but what torment can we put out? lol

Scepter 3 … so if they do a condi torch thing to compliment that weapon, it would be very powerful combination.

There was also a pulsing skill that turned boons into torment i believe.

yeah but then we’re reliant on having boons to strip, and we don’t know if it’s based on stacks, ie 5 stacks of torment from sc3 = 5 burn stacks or 1 burn stack for the single application of torment, guess we’ll have to wait for the skills, not sure if what we’ve been given makes us raid viable?

Elvahaduken.3609:

yeah but then we’re reliant on having boons to strip, and we don’t know if it’s based on stacks, ie 5 stacks of torment from sc3 = 5 burn stacks or 1 burn stack for the single application of torment, guess we’ll have to wait for the skills, not sure if what we’ve been given makes us raid viable?

No we aren’t … Scepter 3 applies torment. Last time I checked anyways. And yes, we have other ways to do so.

yeah but then we’re reliant on having boons to strip

With the amount of boons there are in the game this point wont be an issue.

Scourge don’t look that fun to me I myself might just stay with reaper but some people might go with Scourge.

Obtena.7952:

Elvahaduken.3609:

yeah but then we’re reliant on having boons to strip, and we don’t know if it’s based on stacks, ie 5 stacks of torment from sc3 = 5 burn stacks or 1 burn stack for the single application of torment, guess we’ll have to wait for the skills, not sure if what we’ve been given makes us raid viable?

No we aren’t … Scepter 3 applies torment. Last time I checked anyways. And yes, we have other ways to do so.

Shade skill #1 also put out torment as well so its going to be everywhere

I’m pretty excited for it honestly. Could be a fun and powerful change to standard Necromancer gameplay.

Not happy with “group support spec”… I hate kittening support specs.. That’s why I quit Ranger due to Druid… Now Necro takes the same turn.. kittenMIT!
And deathly chill is getting a nerf as well..

New Revenant & ranger spec looked nice… Time to change main!

Azzara Nectum.1734:

Not happy with “group support spec”… I hate kittening support specs.. That’s why I quit Ranger due to Druid… Now Necro takes the same turn.. kittenMIT!
And deathly chill is getting a nerf as well..

New Revenant & ranger spec looked nice… Time to change main!

There are other ways of providing support besides being a healer. Vampiric Pres- Ah, scratch that. Spotter is a way to improve dps as party support, along with fire fields, stealth, teleports, and control effects.

However, who would want a profession which is not better at any one of those things and does not scale up in dps when other professions do provide that support?

Why cannot Putrid Mark be reverted to transferring all conditions from allies to a target? That one skill was an example of good support.

The elite spec looks interesting, but removal of Shroud has to be compensated in some way. Shroud is not only bland hitpoints, it’s also 50% built-in direct damage reduction.

A bit sad that Torch is not main-hand. Unless it has a CC skill it will have a tough competition in PvP against Warhorn. At the same time, in PvE Scourge condition build will probably be back to Scepter + two off-hands to swap. If Torch was a main-hand weapon we could get to use more weapons in general in a rotation. That’s still speculation though.

Rym.1469:

The elite spec looks interesting, but removal of Shroud has to be compensated in some way. Shroud is not only bland hitpoints, it’s also 50% built-in direct damage reduction.

Wonder how well barrier works as a mechanic since it goes upto 50% of your hp and how fast we can generate it. Also feast from corruption as a trait seems insane. Gain boons you remove or corrupt.

Looking at the traits there is some interesting synergy there already.

I am excited. The primary reason I could never play necro for long is I cannot stand the shroud. No shroud and better mobility. Sounds like fun.

What is ya’lls problem… I’m actually looking forwards to getting Scourge on my Necro specifically BECAUSE it’s a defensive support shroud. I’m going to enjoy running a real support necro finally.

It will be interesting when we get more info or the chance to try it out to find out the answers to the following questions:

1) Does Barrier scale with one of your stats, and if so with which? The necro WP showed had 1.7k vitality and 1.2k healing power – I doubt he would have chosen that amulet if it did not buff barrier somehow, but knowing for sure which stat is involved here would be nice.

2) If it is healing power, do barrier effects benefit from +X% healing effects like rice balls and monk runes? Because if not it may be that the scourge spec will have limited compatability with traditional support rune/sigil/food choices.

3) Can a support scourge do the role of might-stacking as well as a PS warrior? I’m no raider, but if not I’m not seeing anything here that would let a scourge slot easily into the current raid meta comp.

4) Do sand shroud skills inherit the effects of core traits that buff death shroud? On the one had something would have to be done or else a good chunk of all the necro’s best core traits will be useless, but on the other hand the skills from shroud are so different that traits like Transfusion or Dhuumfire would have to be fundamentally reworked for them.

Overall I like the idea of a spec dedicated to giving more support and I’m willing to reserve judgment for now, but I’m a little sceptical right now that people will want the unique thing this class provides – just like how nobody really cares about the superspeed that the scrapper is all about.

Do sand shroud skills inherit the effects of core traits that buff death shroud?

I suspect some traits will be changed but there are exactly 5 shade skills for a reason.

I will dust off my ancient torment equipment but, honestly, building for torment and bleeding and poison because torch is an off-hand sounds bad.

More pointless speculation, I suppose.

Anchoku.8142:

I will dust off my ancient torment equipment but, honestly, building for torment and bleeding and poison because torch is an off-hand sounds bad.

More pointless speculation, I suppose.

I don’t get that concern … that’s EXACTLY what Scepter gives you. You don’t even need to think. If anything, I think the complaint here is that it’s too obvious that torch supports Scepter so closely and perhaps Dagger or axe less so; I don’t believe that’s the sign of good off hand weapon design. Speculation of course, but it seems that’s the direction.

Panda.1967:

What is ya’lls problem… I’m actually looking forwards to getting Scourge on my Necro specifically BECAUSE it’s a defensive support shroud. I’m going to enjoy running a real support necro finally.

support Necro… Even the words don’t mix: support & necromancer
Since when does The Grim Reaper offer life support????

Professor Sprout.1560:

4) Do sand shroud skills inherit the effects of core traits that buff death shroud? On the one had something would have to be done or else a good chunk of all the necro’s best core traits will be useless, but on the other hand the skills from shroud are so different that traits like Transfusion or Dhuumfire would have to be fundamentally reworked for them.

Exactly my concern as well… Half of our trait skills evolve around shroud, either through entering, leaving or while in shroud…
There isn’t a single trait line where there isn’t at least 1 skill that revolves around our shroud…

Btw: did you guys also hear that Reaper will fully move to Power in stead of condition.. And yet the entire expansion evolves around conditions.. Condi Meta all the way..
RIP Reaper???

Panda.1967:

What is ya’lls problem… I’m actually looking forwards to getting Scourge on my Necro specifically BECAUSE it’s a defensive support shroud. I’m going to enjoy running a real support necro finally.

support Necro… Even the words don’t mix: support & necromancer
Since when does The Grim Reaper offer life support???? Last time I heard he’s the one who pulls the plug!!!

Professor Sprout.1560:

4) Do sand shroud skills inherit the effects of core traits that buff death shroud? On the one had something would have to be done or else a good chunk of all the necro’s best core traits will be useless, but on the other hand the skills from shroud are so different that traits like Transfusion or Dhuumfire would have to be fundamentally reworked for them.

Exactly my concern as well… Half of our trait skills evolve around shroud, either through entering, leaving or while in shroud…
There isn’t a single trait line where there isn’t at least 1 skill that revolves around our shroud…

Btw: did you guys also hear that Reaper will fully move to Power in stead of condition.. And yet the entire expansion evolves around conditions.. Condi Meta all the way..
RIP Reaper???

Azzara Nectum.1734:

Panda.1967:

What is ya’lls problem… I’m actually looking forwards to getting Scourge on my Necro specifically BECAUSE it’s a defensive support shroud. I’m going to enjoy running a real support necro finally.

support Necro… Even the words don’t mix: support & necromancer
Since when does The Grim Reaper offer life support???? Last time I heard he’s the one who pulls the plug!!!

Did you ever play GW1? Support Necro’s were quite common place… There’s a reason why the Blood Spec is largely a support focused spec in GW2. Blood Necro’s in GW1 were largely support. Not only did they have a lot of self-healing skills through life-steal, but they had a lot of skills to buff up their allies, restore ally energy, and even transfer health to allies. Blood Necros were always designed with Support in mind. GW2 Blood Necros had the same design philosophy, but it wasn’t implemented very well. Scourge sounds like it’s going to complement Blood quite nicely and provide a solid support role for Necros again.

Panda.1967:

Azzara Nectum.1734:

Panda.1967:

What is ya’lls problem… I’m actually looking forwards to getting Scourge on my Necro specifically BECAUSE it’s a defensive support shroud. I’m going to enjoy running a real support necro finally.

support Necro… Even the words don’t mix: support & necromancer
Since when does The Grim Reaper offer life support???? Last time I heard he’s the one who pulls the plug!!!

Did you ever play GW1? Support Necro’s were quite common place… There’s a reason why the Blood Spec is largely a support focused spec in GW2. Blood Necro’s in GW1 were largely support. Not only did they have a lot of self-healing skills through life-steal, but they had a lot of skills to buff up their allies, restore ally energy, and even transfer health to allies. Blood Necros were always designed with Support in mind. GW2 Blood Necros had the same design philosophy, but it wasn’t implemented very well. Scourge sounds like it’s going to complement Blood quite nicely and provide a solid support role for Necros again.

Mmm Urgoz/Deep 1hp BiP. That was the life.

Peachy has a video on YouTube showing what looks like multiple function keys, ostensibly for using LF.

There is also a pop-up that says, “Use Portal.”

Peachy’s toon used sceptre torch but the Arenanet preview was dagger torch.

Azzara Nectum.1734:

Btw: did you guys also hear that Reaper will fully move to Power in stead of condition.. And yet the entire expansion evolves around conditions.. Condi Meta all the way..
RIP Reaper???

This is false.

WP claimed reaper was going full power because he believed that Deathly Chill was nerfed.

However it wasn’t nerfed. WP was ignorant of the fact that Deathly Chill has always been 1 stack in sPvP, and that Heart of the Mists (the area that he was previewing in) uses the sPvP version of the trait.

From what was shown in WP’s video there have been no changes made to reaper.

More minions eh.. I was hoping for main hand torch to make it unique but its a offhand that i may never use because i’m not a huge condition fan. Yes its the easiest to run due to it having to be removed to finished before it ends compared to straight damage. But since gw1 I’ve been a power fan. Sure i’ve run some condition here n there but mostly power.

This seems to just cater to conditions more. Reaper feels more power based compared to what this sounds like with burn and torment.

Eh hopefully it just doesn’t force condition builds only with the spec line. If so may have to stay power reaper.

Crinn.7864:

snip

Unless I misheard WP he mentioned that the reaper change to deathly chill hadn’t been implemented yet in even that demo version. Previous leaks (largely correct from what I’ve seen) mention that deathly chill will be changed to do power damage each time chill is applied instead of bleeds.

I’m really happy about Scourge. It’s more so a powerful Condition Elite Specialization than support. A lot of the traits are crazy where Torment adds burn too. Trial of Anguish looks like an amazing skill, it will probably be used always.

My biggest wonder is how Corruptions will be used now since we have been using Dagger Offhand to transfer Corruptions. Since Torch is Offhand, then I see Scepter/Dagger Scepter/Torch. Hoping the Torch CDs match up well with Deathly Swarm for timing Corruptions, etc.

I don’t see Epidemic being replaced, same for Blood is Power. The new Elite looks cool. If the Sand Shades work with Dhuumfire it will be amazing. It’s nice the Torch Trait gives Expertise equal to 7% of your Condition Damage. If Viper is still best in the expansion, then this will allow us to use Sinister armor mixed in, and redo Sigils.

Overall Scourge looks way more solid than Reaper was. I see the builds being Curses/Soul Reaping/Scourge, or Curses/Blood Magic/Scourge.

I think removing Shroud is a good thing, because for years they’ve used the excuse that having Shroud meant we could never do super high DPS cause it was a trade off. They can’t use that excuse now. We do have Barriers though for taking damage.

I’m really looking forward to it.

in theory from what I’ve been seeing with the skills and traits a might stacking build is very possible with this new elite spec. Couple taht with the ability to give barrier to people this elite spec is far better than you might think. It does look complicated and I do have 10 million questions myself, but it is absolutely going to be an amazing spec.

Kam.4092:

I think removing Shroud is a good thing, because for years they’ve used the excuse that having Shroud meant we could never do super high DPS cause it was a trade off. They can’t use that excuse now. We do have Barriers though for taking damage.

A few things to consider. We don’t know if the barriers will retain the 50% inherent damage reduction that Shroud provides. Higher damage as a trade-off had very little, if not nothing at all, to do with Shroud. It was because most of our weapon attacks were not projectile based, i.e. Scepter and Axe in particular. Shroud was the excuse Necros couldn’t have invuls, blocks, stability, etc. Now here comes Scourge, with barriers that will most likely protect your health. But also most likely not prevent a CC chain, while I saw at least two key Scourge skills with easy to interrupt cast times.

For what it’s worth, mechanics like Barrier are extremely powerful in raiding situations. There is a very short list of things that I think are competitive with Grace of the Land when it comes to powerful raid tools, and powerful damage absorption skills are one of them.

Lahmia.2193:

Panda.1967:

Azzara Nectum.1734:

Panda.1967:

What is ya’lls problem… I’m actually looking forwards to getting Scourge on my Necro specifically BECAUSE it’s a defensive support shroud. I’m going to enjoy running a real support necro finally.

support Necro… Even the words don’t mix: support & necromancer
Since when does The Grim Reaper offer life support???? Last time I heard he’s the one who pulls the plug!!!

Did you ever play GW1? Support Necro’s were quite common place… There’s a reason why the Blood Spec is largely a support focused spec in GW2. Blood Necro’s in GW1 were largely support. Not only did they have a lot of self-healing skills through life-steal, but they had a lot of skills to buff up their allies, restore ally energy, and even transfer health to allies. Blood Necros were always designed with Support in mind. GW2 Blood Necros had the same design philosophy, but it wasn’t implemented very well. Scourge sounds like it’s going to complement Blood quite nicely and provide a solid support role for Necros again.

Mmm Urgoz/Deep 1hp BiP. That was the life.

I just foundly remember Spitefull Spirit.. Loved that skill in GW1..
What I don’t remember however is playing a support role in GW1 on my Necro… Simply because I choose not to spec for it.. there were Monks for that and Ritualist..
But to each their own.. If you like to play a support role Panda, then I’m glad you will find a renewed love in Scourge.. I only hope the DPS will be insane so I can spec out for over the top Harbinger Of Death kinda thing

Sarrs.4831:

For what it’s worth, mechanics like Barrier are extremely powerful in raiding situations. There is a very short list of things that I think are competitive with Grace of the Land when it comes to powerful raid tools, and powerful damage absorption skills are one of them.

Nobody cares about defensive utilities in the raid scene, it’s all about that max dps.

You could make an argument that people like distort because it lets them ignore mechanics (and thus increase their dps)—which is true. But as we’ve been seeing, anet is moving away from distort by having all of their new bosses have mechanics that go through distort. It’s HIGHLY unlikely that they would add a new defensive utility that avoids/absorbs enough damage to be relevant when they are clearly taking steps to go in the direction of making groups actually have to do the mechanics.

Even if Sandshroud’s utility was as strong as like a group wide permanent pre-nerf-Rise! (50% damage reduction), the raiding community would ignore it. There’s a reason hammer guards, stone spirit, and rev’s pulsing protection never really caught on and this will probably fall under the same category. If it’s like aegis, I guess it’d be useful for Deimos CM or things like that, but that’s the type of incredibly niche usefulness that already haunts necros in PvE.

narcx.3570:

Nobody cares about defensive utilities in the raid scene, it’s all about that max dps.

Farm raiding or progression raiding? Of course nobody cares about defensive utilities in farm raiding. Progression raiding is all I care about.

narcx.3570:

You could make an argument that people like distort because it lets them ignore mechanics (and thus increase their dps)—which is true. But as we’ve been seeing, anet is moving away from distort by having all of their new bosses have mechanics that go through distort. It’s HIGHLY unlikely that they would add a new defensive utility that avoids/absorbs enough damage to be relevant when they are clearly taking steps to go in the direction of making groups actually have to do the mechanics.

I don’t think “Barrier will literally do nothing” is a fair worry to have. And yes, there’s a massive argument to be made that Barrier can allow you to build strategies to counter mechanics. A good disc priest let me solo soak Xhul’horac black holes with no trouble.

narcx.3570:

Even if Sandshroud’s utility was as strong as like a group wide permanent pre-nerf-Rise! (50% damage reduction), the raiding community would ignore it. There’s a reason hammer guards, stone spirit, and rev’s pulsing protection never really caught on and this will probably fall under the same category. If it’s like aegis, I guess it’d be useful for Deimos CM or things like that, but that’s the type of incredibly niche usefulness that already haunts necros in PvE.

Damage absorption is not damage reduction. They are both fundamentally different things in that you can have both at the same time, and in that they fill different roles. Damage absorption should be viewed as healing-but-better.

I don’t see it as being useful for specific fights, I see it as being mandatory for certain strategies and always useful. Damage absorption always beats healing pound for pound. The only issue will be the decay, but that heightens the skill floor of Barrier rather than impact its usefulness.

well there is always the next expansion, don’t give up hope…

Personally, I like the idea of discarding shroud. Necromancer has been too difficult for the balance team to get in line with other professions when it comes to dps vs sustain.

While many feel tormented by the upcoming nerf and normalization to boon and condition duration modifiers, I welcome it. Durations for both totally dominated and distorted build diversity.

Personally, I won’t be seeing much of a difference. I keep forgetting to use food and utilities.

Did Ranger/Soulbeast get our Shroud ? There Beastmode mechanic sounds and feels alot like our Shroud tbh.