Guild Wars 2

I haven’t yet created a Necromancer (waiting on a suitable expansion race), but I’ve theory crafted plenty. As a PvEer I’ve always intended to run a Power/Condition Damage hybrid with 30/20/x/x/x or 30/30/x/x/x. With the addition of the Dhuumfire grandmaster trait in the Spite trait line I see there’s now a choice to be made between Dhuumfire and Close to Death. What do you guys think?

it seems to me that Close to Death is by far the clear choice as the 20% extra dmg is just….

Close to Death hits everyone under 50%, has no cooldown, and favors Power.

Dhuumfire helps you bring them to 50% faster, but only hit one target unless you epidemic (which you should ). You can also keep it on for 80% of the time with 100% condi duration, but it will not trigger on anyone else until 10 sec has passed.

Personally I use Dhuumfire, the burst it gives us with all those Poison/Fear/Bleed/Torment is really good. But I think in the long run Close to Death should be more damage, the more against you the better.

For PvE, Close to Death is the obvious choice

I would say for pure Power Build CtD is the choice, specially with Axe training & you also take that buff with you in DS. For Condi ofc Dhuumfire, hybrid I say in wich way your build is leaning…

As Stikci said, 20% to all damage is big. Take your entire dps and 20% of that’s fairly substantial. If you’re AoE’ing down multiple mobs, it can apply to multiple targets at once. Also, since it’s not itself a condition, it would be better than Dhuumfire in a group where there might already be plenty of burning applied. (Burning stacks in duration.)

I’ve been using Dhuumfire, though, for a few reasons. First, it applies to your target at any point, not just when health is below 50%. Second, it’s an additional condition, and we have a couple of skills and traits that benefit from more conditions on our target (Feast of Corruption, Epidemic, Target the Weak, Terror, maybe others). Third, I don’t have the best stats, but I do have around 34% crit rate with my scepter/focus and 38% with my staff, and +66% condition duration (with food), which I figure means I’ll have Dhuumfire on a target about 45-50% of the time.

The bottom line is that both of these traits are Spite GM traits, so you can switch back and forth out of combat, depending on what you anticipate doing next. At any moment in time it’s either/or, but it’s a trivial decision in the sense that you don’t have to pay anything or go anywhere to change your mind.

Close to Death is going to be better for you most likely. The reason is any group you run with an ele or guardian is going to be pushing your burns, no matter what, they can’t help it. That is going to reduce your damage a bit if you are using burning, whereas no one can stop your direct damage, and in PvE mobs aren’t usually applying tons of protection anyway.

However, remember that Close to Death does not raise your DPS by 20%, it raises your direct damage by 20%.

Tbh Valkyrie is horrible for the Necro. Your effective health due to having no toughness and considering light armor give 0% damage reduction is low. It usually wouldn’t be so bad because my build with 30% damage reduction has 28k, but then Necro self heals at least in your build are so low you will spend all your time at 7-8k hp and dropping fast. It reminds me of how bad my old full Carrion gear was.

Bhawb.7408:

However, remember that Close to Death does not raise your DPS by 20%, it raises your direct damage by 20%.

Ooo, I mis-spoke then. So it really doesn’t affect damage due to conditions? In which case it would be related to Power, Crit%, Crit Damage only, and not by Condition Damage, Condition Duration, etc.

Yep. None of the +% damage things work on conditions, unfortunately.

@Bhawb: Which makes me feel better about running with Dhuumfire for now. Though I’m going to have to look at my sigils to make sure I’ve got the +%dmg one on the right weapon. I’m trying to be a hybrid so +%dmg still plays a role, but now I realize that it affects one side of the hybrid and not the other.

Theres another side to “close to death” in the equation for me. That being, if they are below 50% they are probably in deep doo-doo anyway, and an extra 20% damage is redundant, that eggs already cracked wide open. Everyone knows if you are below 50% you are a MAGNET for player aggro. And/or they are employing other measures to avoid damage altogether.

Now if I could get a damage bonus for when they were ABOVE 50%, that would be great.

FYI, I’m talking wvw, for pve it would make a great choice.

Kilger.5490:

Theres another side to “close to death” in the equation for me. That being, if they are below 50% they are probably in deep doo-doo anyway, and an extra 20% damage is redundant, that eggs already cracked wide open. Everyone knows if you are below 50% you are a MAGNET for player aggro. And/or they are employing other measures to avoid damage altogether.

Now if I could get a damage bonus for when they were ABOVE 50%, that would be great.

FYI, I’m talking wvw, for pve it would make a great choice.

Sorry mate. But WvW is 99% PvE.

D I V A.6018:

Kilger.5490:

Theres another side to “close to death” in the equation for me. That being, if they are below 50% they are probably in deep doo-doo anyway, and an extra 20% damage is redundant, that eggs already cracked wide open. Everyone knows if you are below 50% you are a MAGNET for player aggro. And/or they are employing other measures to avoid damage altogether.

Now if I could get a damage bonus for when they were ABOVE 50%, that would be great.

FYI, I’m talking wvw, for pve it would make a great choice.

Sorry mate. But WvW is 99% PvE.

Are you trying to be funny or do you think you’re trolling by repeating other people on the forums like a parrot?

The only thing that matters in WvW is damage done to players.

I am not arguing that. But W3 is a massive zerg fest where one’s 20% increased damage hardly matters at all. Trust me, I tried to enjoy W3 for its PvP potential and it was just not there. With very few exceptions, the bigger zerg wins, much like PvE where your group dies if you pull too many mobs

DIVA

the 20% increase in damage on a hybrid build turns a 5k crit into a 6k crit.

whereas burn will deal 500-700dmg every second for 4s every 10s.

its an obvious choice in my eyes.

Dhuumfire sounds fantastic from a Cond. perspective. Pity I can’t bring myself to put 30 pts in Spite.

Back on topic then.
I am successfully using Dhuumfire on a condition spec.
30/20/0/0/20 is the way to go imao. Not only does a conditionmancer benefit from the 30% increased condition duration The additional 300 power are not wasted at all on a necromancer since almost all attacks have a damage parts besides the condition part.

I find it extremely convinient to push 90%+ fear duration with the improved #3 DS.

Yet I am unsure if having 5.4s burning every 10 seconds is worth losing 100 condition damage as well as not having greater marks.
The decision would be much easier if epidemic had a shorter cast time. 1 second is so unargueably long that I witness a high rate of failing that skill.

My rotation to “bypass” that problem is as follows:
1. spreading conditions as usual starting with staff. Blood is power, #4,#2,#3.
2. DS (should be up prior to this rotation) #5 wait 2 seconds, #3.
3. Wait for the immobilize.
4. Epidemic

Tbh this is extremely hard to pull of. But with the increased fear duration you can actually AoE fear and spread torment in the same move.

What do you guys think? (only pre-patch necros please.)

DIVA

Dhuumfire is pointless in pve. Guardians, eles and engineers will just overwrite your burn damage in PvE as it only stacks duration and you cant all get the damage tick.

spoj.9672:

Dhuumfire is pointless in pve. Guardians, eles and engineers will just overwrite your burn damage in PvE as it only stacks duration and you cant all get the damage tick.

and as it stacks in duration, the duration wont stack? i mean i tick my fire (4.x secs) then at sametime elementalist use a fire thing (4 secs) wont it make a 8 secs burning ticking with my condition duaration for 4.x secs then ticking with the elementalist condition damage for the other 4 secs? sorry im im noob and this isnt the case, but i dont really know hoe the burning acutally does when x2 people use it at same time.

Talking about Dhuumfire, I decided to give a hybrid builds a try while testing the new traits and ended up taking both Dhuumfire and Deathly Perception, and it turns out DS1 can still hit rather hard while making it easier to trigger Dhuumfire on a build with low crit chance.

Basically, I took a Carion build with about 20% crit chance into hot joins and it worked surprisingly well. Of course, a build working in Hot joins doesn’t really mean much, but something like that might be worth a closer look.

cyst.3108:

spoj.9672:

Dhuumfire is pointless in pve. Guardians, eles and engineers will just overwrite your burn damage in PvE as it only stacks duration and you cant all get the damage tick.

and as it stacks in duration, the duration wont stack? i mean i tick my fire (4.x secs) then at sametime elementalist use a fire thing (4 secs) wont it make a 8 secs burning ticking with my condition duaration for 4.x secs then ticking with the elementalist condition damage for the other 4 secs? sorry im im noob and this isnt the case, but i dont really know hoe the burning acutally does when x2 people use it at same time.

Whoever last applied burning deals the damage from it. So your condition damage will be overwritten by the last person to apply burning. Seeing as 1 guardian can apply permanent burning your going to have trouble keeping the burning to scale with your own condition damage.

Basically it will be overwritten by the guardian and do low damage because guardians dont stack condition damage. You wont get anything out of it except the odd single tick of damage in pve. However Dhuumfire is very strong in pvp and wvw for hybrid builds.

For PVE, I’d recommend Close To Death.

For WvW / PvP, I’d recommend Dhuumfire as it deals damage AND helps protect your bleed stacks.

Thedenofsin.7340:

For PVE, I’d recommend Close To Death.

For WvW / PvP, I’d recommend Dhuumfire as it deals damage AND helps protect your bleed stacks.

if you play condition necro then both will have like the same effect in pve, cause CTD won scale you rcondition damage, and DF will have better results in single target

i would like to see a trat that says, Your conditions deals +% damage. then ill be ok to let myself to die gracefully (or the day Anet kills Logan u.u)

cyst.3108:

Thedenofsin.7340:

For PVE, I’d recommend Close To Death.

For WvW / PvP, I’d recommend Dhuumfire as it deals damage AND helps protect your bleed stacks.

True, but the thread is about hybrid builds.
if you play condition necro then both will have like the same effect in pve, cause CTD won scale you rcondition damage, and DF will have better results in single target

I am using Dhuumfire for my pvp build for two basic reasons.

I normally run a power/DS based build as it is and the added damage when an enemy is below 50% is nice, but getting them to that 50% is the much more difficult part.

I tend to land the Dhuumfire often enough it does full damage and most of the time I am prepared if my enemy manages to cleanse conditions anyway and just top them off with signet of spit which has been very useful for me.

I don’t zerg much anymore unless the area I am in suddenly becomes a battlefield, so my builds are for smaller encounters and support for the heavy melee/DPS types.

As a Necro, when someone I am attacking is at 50% or less, if they don’t have a heal available, they usually are looking to get away rather than finish the fight unless I am also up the creek.

I take all these things into consideration and feel the Dhuumfire is going to a be a more consistent factor in my fights. I love seeing it pop off of BiP, or Reapers Touch, if they cleanse then I have signet of spite to put them right back in the hole.

Overall I am happy with the additions, but we are still in deep trouble under focus fire and heavy CC. This means every group fight is about location, location, location.

I just tried to check out if an AoE can trigger Dhuumfire on multiple targets. I never saw fire appear on more than one target.

It could be that only a single target can experience a crit. It could be that Dhuumfire will only hit a single target, even if multiple targets are simultaneously crit. It could be that each target rolls separately for a crit, rather than the caster rolling (for all targets), and in my limited testing I just never saw multiple targets lose their rolls. (I have about a 40% crit chance.)

The combat logs get cluttered quickly, but it appears that I never had more than one target that was crit. I’ll have to test more.

Druitt.7629:

I just tried to check out if an AoE can trigger Dhuumfire on multiple targets. I never saw fire appear on more than one target.

It could be that only a single target can experience a crit. It could be that Dhuumfire will only hit a single target, even if multiple targets are simultaneously crit. It could be that each target rolls separately for a crit, rather than the caster rolling (for all targets), and in my limited testing I just never saw multiple targets lose their rolls. (I have about a 40% crit chance.)

The combat logs get cluttered quickly, but it appears that I never had more than one target that was crit. I’ll have to test more.

This is something I want to test further.

I used Reaper’s Touch on two Moas running in tandem and the crit appeared to hit both of them and the Dhuumfire seemed to hit both as well. I didn’t get much of an opportunity to see if it was both or just one as I was also monitoring some enemy activity as well and couldn’t toggle between them fast enough to see if it was both or not.

I might have to try out the wells as an experimental test for additional results. The activate on crit might only affect a projectile attack that can hit multiple targets and not a normal aoe.

Edit; I could not reproduce the results of landing the Dhuumfire on more than one target on a single cast.

chefdiablo.6791:

Edit; I could not reproduce the results of landing the Dhuumfire on more than one target on a single cast.

I just ran into a situation where a Reaper’s Touch put Dhuumfire on the second target it hit, but not the first. It stood out to me because both were in a dark area and I didn’t see the second until it came running towards me on fire. Perhaps the angle and lighting conditions for your Moa’s were such that it looked like they were both on fire but only the second one was.

To be honest, I think it’s fair that Dhuumfire can’t hit AoE. For me, scepter/focus is mainly for single-target and the Dhuumfire and my scepter/focus sigils are aimed at strengthening that side of the hybrid. The staff is more for the support and AoE side of the hybrid and Close to Death logically can work well in AoE situations. (From that point of view, it would be better if Close to Death helped Condition damage to some extent.)

So in a dungeon, for trash mob or other predominantly AoE fights, I’d switch to Close to Death, and for bosses (or outside of dungeons entirely), I’d switch to Dhuumfire. I really think it’s a nice idea to have both as GM talents in Spite.

spoj.9672:

Whoever last applied burning deals the damage from it. So your condition damage will be overwritten by the last person to apply burning. Seeing as 1 guardian can apply permanent burning your going to have trouble keeping the burning to scale with your own condition damage.

Basically it will be overwritten by the guardian and do low damage because guardians dont stack condition damage. You wont get anything out of it except the odd single tick of damage in pve. However Dhuumfire is very strong in pvp and wvw for hybrid builds.

Really ? I tested fire with my engi and a friend of mine’s guardian.

First test : I applied burning with blowtorch and right after than he applied burning. He did not see any tick from his burning until mine had ended.

Second test : he applied burning first and I applied burning right after him. I did not see any tick from my burning until his burning had ended.

So I do not think that the last burning applied overwrite the burning that is already applied on the target.

Messing about with Dhuumfire, I found condi duration to be very important along with getting enough precision to proc soon after the CD ends. Dhoomfire is definitely for longer fights where Target the Weak shortens already winnable ones.

Putting 30 into spite does not leave much for many other utilities and dumping another 30 into curses is tempting for the precision and extra condi duration on scepter. I do not have a good feel for how dhuumfire would work on a MM or fear build. It would be awesome if minions could also proc the fire but that is as much a dream as wishing minions could dodge.

To me, Dhuumfire puts scepter into a power build that works best soloing PvE bosses. If you are not giong to run scepter with 30 in curses then I am not sure there is too much difference between it and Close to Death outside of PvP where the instant damage is more attractive than taking a chance to get 20% on direct damage when your oponent is not healing above the 50% mark.

Grinn Tyaz.4970:

spoj.9672:

Whoever last applied burning deals the damage from it. So your condition damage will be overwritten by the last person to apply burning. Seeing as 1 guardian can apply permanent burning your going to have trouble keeping the burning to scale with your own condition damage.

Basically it will be overwritten by the guardian and do low damage because guardians dont stack condition damage. You wont get anything out of it except the odd single tick of damage in pve. However Dhuumfire is very strong in pvp and wvw for hybrid builds.

Really ? I tested fire with my engi and a friend of mine’s guardian.

First test : I applied burning with blowtorch and right after than he applied burning. He did not see any tick from his burning until mine had ended.

Second test : he applied burning first and I applied burning right after him. I did not see any tick from my burning until his burning had ended.

So I do not think that the last burning applied overwrite the burning that is already applied on the target.

Ah ok first application then. Still same principle. If guard burns first then you wont get any burn damage. Therefore pointless in a group.

Running 30/0/10/0/30 with Dhuumfire instead of CtD. I typically get 5 ticks of burning, which is about 1700 damage over 5 seconds. For me it is very hard to decide between CtD and Dhuumfire. Running Golem instead of Lich and picking up Training of the Master (30% damage), the burst damage is extremely high.