Guild Wars 2

It seems pretty obvious that there are a couple of popular pet classes that get all that treatment in the sun, and unfortunately a lot of balance patches so far have been made by seemingly listening to only the cries of people in love with those pet classes.

I think what they need to do, is bring back the old Test Krewe that we had in GW1. These were basically players who played pvp or pve, and played a variety of classes. And they would test new content, and provide feedback for any balance patches. That is what we need. Bring in some players who main a necromancer, for necromancer balancing.

It’s not fun to fight.

hackks.3687:

Brando.1374:

hackks.3687:

Brando.1374:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3362074
So this is a very long duel I had with an ele before the patch came out.

Please tell me how I am supposed to beat him now if he has diamond skin?

Ugh… you might start by:

- don’t just hit buttons trying to brute force your way through an opponent
- pay attention to your opponent: what they’re casting, how they’re casting and for how long, boons/conditions/buffs/etc.
- understand their build, how they use it, so you can avoid their strengths and exploit the weaknesses.
- At the very least, be mindful of your CDs and use them appropriately – i.e. don’t throw down your Dagger 4 when you don’t have any conditions on you; don’t use Flesh Golem’s Charge just to abate some pressure from a caster, use it to interrupt important casts like Heals or Churning Earth
- Don’t run face first into big damage skills like Churning Earth
- Don’t throw down staff marks and then run away from them.

that’s what I got from the first0 or so. I couldn’t really take much more than that.

im a full condi dmg necro, I have no power, how the kitten am I supposed to get him below 90%? and on the off chance that I do going into water will bring him back up.

Well since you asked:

Personally, I’d send Flesh Golem after them while I wait for them to open. If they RTL to me, as soon as I see the character model change I’d be into DS and strafing while pre-casting Dark Path, so I could avoid the RTL and get in an easy Life Blast at close range when they pop out of it. If that LB and DP are enough to blow through Diamond Skin then I’m already set up for a Terror Nuke with Doom and can put them on the back foot and take the initiative in the fight. If I still need to kick out more direct damage, then I go to Life Transfer. I’d be sure to hold on to Flesh Golem’s Charge as well so that when I see them swap back to Water attunement I can interrupt their heal and then lay on the real condi burst.

The fight could be played completely different as well. That’s why understanding and paying attention to your opponent are critical to success in PvP combat.

You might be a condi build, but you’re not devoid of direct damage. Be creative. Come up with something.

that will only delay the ele from healing.

wasting DS with my build (since I only have spectral skills to regen lf) only to ds1 or 4 them is useless since they can have their regen get their hp back up withing a few seconds. as for using the charge, thats a wasted charge again because eventually they will go back to water and heal up in what 9 seconds? and if you see in that duel I wasnt able to keep my bleeds on for more that a few seconds before he cleared them.

lol no one is complaining about it now. It’s been over 3 weeks, like I said. People found counters, and no one uses the trait because of how weak it is. Its almost too easy to counter.

You guys made such a big deal about this weeks ago. And I love getting to say ‘i told you so.’

The Game Slayer.7632:

lol no one is complaining about it now. It’s been over 3 weeks, like I said. People found counters, and no one uses the trait because of how weak it is. Its almost too easy to counter.

You guys made such a big deal about this weeks ago. And I love getting to say ‘i told you so.’

The fact that it has counters and isn’t a very good trait in the grand scheme of thing does nothing to diminish how disconcerting it is that they would even try a trait like this that tries to passively destroy a particular build.

The Game Slayer.7632:

lol no one is complaining about it now. It’s been over 3 weeks, like I said. People found counters, and no one uses the trait because of how weak it is. Its almost too easy to counter.

You guys made such a big deal about this weeks ago. And I love getting to say ‘i told you so.’

Dude. It’s bad game design. Just like perplexity runes and just like using venom-sharing to stack immobilize. You know, the thing you are getting flamed for right now in the thief forum for correctly pointing it out as something that is broken.

Interestingly enough, their counter-argument to your complaint is the same as your counter-argument to the diamond skin complaint. Perhaps it is time for some introspection?

well since game slayer took the time to necro the thread on the necro forum I might as well share my personal experience and thoughts on it

i never encountered ds eles on my own in a fair 1vs1 as a necromancer so I have not the experience to share on this but in team fights when a condi mesmer friend called out a ds ele retal and cleave just took care of it in every single team fight I had a part of.

the only solo ds ele i encountered was on my GS/LB warrior when I noticed the ele took no burning damage from LB 2…still died fairly quickly after being point blank arcing arrow’ed and a random GS swings…might have been really glassy but that is the only experience I had with DS eles in a 1vs1….I imagine a condi warrior would have had trouble with it but might stacking, a signet and a banner should take care of the problem since they got to have low vitality I think….

I wanted to try out the trait on my ele since 300 condi damage is wasted and I will either have to give up either vitality or utility of EA…or have a lousy access of both. I would try to make a condi ele using elemental surge(perma burning is nice right?) to use the condi damage from earth magic in a 10 0 30 0 30 with dire/cele gear but I dont have enough time to theory craft states combinations…. and my server could use something better than a useless ele with a selfish trait. pairing it with fresh air might be suicidal since the only condi defense would be either renewal

us wvw folk might not see this trait much but in s/tpvp I have no idea since I quit pvp but it sure is going to reduce the number of necromancers…even though both classes need the team support.

that sums up my lazily put perspective on DS so far

im actually interested to hear what my fellow necromancers think of it at the moment.

The Game Slayer.7632:

lol no one is complaining about it now. It’s been over 3 weeks, like I said. People found counters, and no one uses the trait because of how weak it is. Its almost too easy to counter.

You guys made such a big deal about this weeks ago. And I love getting to say ‘i told you so.’

You cant be serious. All i’m running into in wvw is diamondskin. People stopped complaining in this thread, or went mm/power.

Luciferhawke.2015:

The Game Slayer.7632:

lol no one is complaining about it now. It’s been over 3 weeks, like I said. People found counters, and no one uses the trait because of how weak it is. Its almost too easy to counter.

You guys made such a big deal about this weeks ago. And I love getting to say ‘i told you so.’

You cant be serious. All i’m running into in wvw is diamondskin. People stopped complaining in this thread, or went mm/power.

Same here. I’d say 8/10 eles I run across will have diamond skin in wvw. While in zergblobs that’s not a huge issue, for roaming it is a major issue. Even running MM sometimes isn’t enough because they can go from half hp to full in a split second, and back comes the immunity. No CC, no condis to whittle them down, slow them, put them way down here on our playing field….they just continue to happily faceroll that keyboard with zero skill required.

Druss.6917:

Luciferhawke.2015:

The Game Slayer.7632:

lol no one is complaining about it now. It’s been over 3 weeks, like I said. People found counters, and no one uses the trait because of how weak it is. Its almost too easy to counter.

You guys made such a big deal about this weeks ago. And I love getting to say ‘i told you so.’

You cant be serious. All i’m running into in wvw is diamondskin. People stopped complaining in this thread, or went mm/power.

Same here. I’d say 8/10 eles I run across will have diamond skin in wvw. While in zergblobs that’s not a huge issue, for roaming it is a major issue. Even running MM sometimes isn’t enough because they can go from half hp to full in a split second, and back comes the immunity. No CC, no condis to whittle them down, slow them, put them way down here on our playing field….they just continue to happily faceroll that keyboard with zero skill required.

True story…

Yet they still cry about only "2"sec dhuumfire being op.
Condi necro isn’t viable anymore, yet anet still nerf bleed stacks, condi durations, weakness icds… Give necros new power weapons and build options then. Currently, the only “kinda” viable build is MM. Ele, mesmer, warrior(hammer spammer), thief(perma evade) all of these classes can easily faceroll a necro if you assume both of players use their characters at the same skill level. Stop nerfing necro and start nerfing hammer spam warriors, perma evade spam thieves, undying eles and zerker tank guards. All of these class builds are superior op against any necro/ranger/engi build plus these builds are a lot easier to play. I can’t understand why they nerf necros while there’s this kind of ultra op builds. They can’t even give an explanation, there’s no dev messages in necro forums since 1 month. Because there’s no logical explanation to necro nerfs.

Umut.5471:

Yet they still cry about only "2"sec dhuumfire being op.
Condi necro isn’t viable anymore, yet anet still nerf bleed stacks, condi durations, weakness icds… Give necros new power weapons and build options then. Currently, the only “kinda” viable build is MM. Ele, mesmer, warrior(hammer spammer), thief(perma evade) all of these classes can easily faceroll a necro if you assume both of players use their characters at the same skill level. Stop nerfing necro and start nerfing hammer spam warriors, perma evade spam thieves, undying eles and zerker tank guards. All of these class builds are superior op against any necro/ranger/engi build plus these builds are a lot easier to play. I can’t understand why they nerf necros while there’s this kind of ultra op builds. They can’t even give an explanation, there’s no dev messages in necro forums since 1 month. Because there’s no logical explanation to necro nerfs.

Such a true story… we have LOWER damage then before Dhuumfire and people still say necromancer is OP.

alanis.6094:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/video-ele-vs-necro-post-patch

lols

This Necro is absolutely the WORST necro I have ever seen…

Does Diamond Skin have an icon in the boon/condition bar when you select an enemy player? I haven’t yet taken the time to look, but if it doesn’t, then I have an enormous issue with not even being able to know if the Ele is Diamond Skin beforehand.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Does Diamond Skin have an icon in the boon/condition bar when you select an enemy player? I haven’t yet taken the time to look, but if it doesn’t, then I have an enormous issue with not even being able to know if the Ele is Diamond Skin beforehand.

Nope. No buff icon. You just get to find out when your first attack pops “immune”

@Umot: Perma-evade thieves got nerfed in the last patch.

For two weeks I’ve been trying to find a tournament build which worked with Diamond Skin. So far I have had no luck. I’ve felt as soon as I found myself in a legitimate fight, Diamond Skin would have no effect.

It’s a waste of a Grandmaster trait and should be removed from the game on the grounds that it is a useless trait and not since it is “OP” against a certain type of necromancer which is not able to change play-styles to accommodate their enemy having such a useless trait.

It’s not “unable to change playstyles” it’s “Must change the entirety of their build to deal with because it completely shuts them down with no chance of counterplay”. It’s also extremely harsh on power-based necros because they rely on snares so heavily, which Diamond Skin makes you immune to.

The reason the trait needs to go is because it is too binary: it is either completely worthless or guarantees you a win. There is no middle-ground.

Are eles even using that trait? I have never encountered a ele with that trait. If i remember correctly the earth trait line is terrible and a grandmaster that is only good against condi specs will not improve it.

Muchacho.2390:

Are eles even using that trait? I have never encountered a ele with that trait. If i remember correctly the earth trait line is terrible and a grandmaster that is only good against condi specs will not improve it.

I don’t think many use it, and if they do, they only use it to laugh at Condi necros and potentially avoid the initial spat of Engi condi burst. However, not using a trait isn’t an excuse to have something this lazily designed.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Muchacho.2390:

Are eles even using that trait? I have never encountered a ele with that trait. If i remember correctly the earth trait line is terrible and a grandmaster that is only good against condi specs will not improve it.

I don’t think many use it, and if they do, they only use it to laugh at Condi necros and potentially avoid the initial spat of Engi condi burst. However, not using a trait isn’t an excuse to have something this lazily designed.

I see it on elementalists roaming maybe 25% of the time now these days. It is reasonably common as the “meta” for roaming is conditions right now. Oddly enough it doesn’t help at all with roaming, unless they can get a 1v1 with a condition necro, in which cast it is just faceroll easy for them. That balances out how faceroll easy it is for us without them running the trait.

Atoss.1056:

Ask the devs to give you immunity to direct damage at over 90% hp. If that will stop cries I’m totally fine with it.

PS. I have a necro too.

I’ve asked for direct damage immunity while above 90% lifeforce while in death shroud.

That’s, like 2 seconds max before the natural degen kicks in, what do you think?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

@Umot: Perma-evade thieves got nerfed in the last patch.

They are still ridiculously op. if this is their nerfed version, i can’t imagine how op they were before… They don’t even take damage.

Rennoko.5731:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Muchacho.2390:

Are eles even using that trait? I have never encountered a ele with that trait. If i remember correctly the earth trait line is terrible and a grandmaster that is only good against condi specs will not improve it.

I don’t think many use it, and if they do, they only use it to laugh at Condi necros and potentially avoid the initial spat of Engi condi burst. However, not using a trait isn’t an excuse to have something this lazily designed.

I see it on elementalists roaming maybe 25% of the time now these days. It is reasonably common as the “meta” for roaming is conditions right now. Oddly enough it doesn’t help at all with roaming, unless they can get a 1v1 with a condition necro, in which cast it is just faceroll easy for them. That balances out how faceroll easy it is for us without them running the trait.

Faceroll Wars: A Necro Meta
Faceroll Wars: Elementalist Strikes Back

To be follow by the thrilling conclusion to the drama,

Faceroll Wars: Return of the Condi

Or maybe not. I’m not a fan of build-counters to other builds as a general rule, but considering the amount of potential variability in what a build can do in this game, I understand when certain builds just have issues against others.

I just want blanket immunities at % health ranges to go away, even if they don’t affect me. The idea of it causes concern for the game’s balance direction for me. Hell, if Diamond Skin was “Immune to Conditions while above X% health while attuned to Earth”, even that I feel like would be something you could potentially counter-play.

Just anything with a bit more thought in it would be nice.

I play an ele, and seriously diamond skin is just a one trick pony that works…sometimes. It’s a 30 point trait in a line line that revolves around condi damage when eles have terrible condi damage. A bunker spec Ele might have 20k hp, and it’s nothing for any class to sneeze at you and drop you below 90%. I can’t imagine that condi necros spend the majority of their gameplay, solo, and are only pitted against DS eles to where this can be game breaking for them.

Sorry you have one class where in certain situations you can’t set it and forget it condition spam.

Mek.2947:

I play an ele, and seriously diamond skin is just a one trick pony that works…sometimes. It’s a 30 point trait in a line line that revolves around condi damage when eles have terrible condi damage. A bunker spec Ele might have 20k hp, and it’s nothing for any class to sneeze at you and drop you below 90%. I can’t imagine that condi necros spend the majority of their gameplay, solo, and are only pitted against DS eles to where this can be game breaking for them.

Sorry you have one class where in certain situations you can’t set it and forget it condition spam.

Judging what you’ve written, you admit it’s a lackluster trait and you question its design/placement. However, you seem to be injecting your emotions into the discussion, which doesn’t help much.

Condi Necros could faceroll Eles, I’m assuming, which felt really frustrating and lame. True, I get it. Feeling like you can’t do anything against a class when they just roll through their buttons is bad.

Now, certain Eles can faceroll Condi Necros because of a passive thing. It seems like you think this is good, because you just want to stick it to a build you’re frustrated with.

Approaching balance while feeling vindictive towards a class/spec is a fast track for being unreasonable and taking the conversation nowhere. I’m a Powermancer and don’t have much issue with DS, but I think it’s a really dumb trait and don’t want the game to continue down its direction.

Mek.2947:

I play an ele, and seriously diamond skin is just a one trick pony that works…sometimes. It’s a 30 point trait in a line line that revolves around condi damage when eles have terrible condi damage. A bunker spec Ele might have 20k hp, and it’s nothing for any class to sneeze at you and drop you below 90%. I can’t imagine that condi necros spend the majority of their gameplay, solo, and are only pitted against DS eles to where this can be game breaking for them.

Sorry you have one class where in certain situations you can’t set it and forget it condition spam.

The issue is not getting under 90%, that can be done easily even on a full condi spec, but unless your ele is running no healing at all, how long can it be kept there? Not long enough to get a full condi burst in I can guarantee that. Not to mention plenty of cleanses still in store to get rid of anything the necro might put on you. And I agree the “set it and forget it” mentality of many dumbfire builds was, well dumb (and most of the necros want it to disappear forever). And this trait could be a proper answer to it if they did it right. All it needs is immunity to damaging conditions, not all conditions. There’s the counterplay right there. There also needs to be some kind of indicator that they have the trait, whether it be one of those trait icons like warrior, guard, ranger have when they run traits to buff allies attributes, or some other similar icon. What I’m suggesting is not out of the question, nor would it break the diamond skin roamer meta. It has it’s place, but in it’s current form, this is not it.

You’re calling the kettle black when you complain about a faceroll necro condi build when you’re running a faceroll condi tank.

I’ve been playing a dagger/dagger diamond skin condi ele in tpvp (0/0/30/20/20 w/ settler’s, i.e., 3,200 armor and 600 hp passive regen per second).

I just thought I’d pop in and say I find this thread highly amusing….

Gesamtkunstwerk.6590:

I’ve been playing a dagger/dagger diamond skin condi ele in tpvp (0/0/30/20/20 w/ settler’s, i.e., 3,200 armor and 600 hp passive regen per second).

I just thought I’d pop in and say I find this thread highly amusing….

Lol, don’t you like the 12k health in that build? And the wet noodle damage too?

Umut.5471:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

@Umot: Perma-evade thieves got nerfed in the last patch.

They are still ridiculously op. if this is their nerfed version, i can’t imagine how op they were before… They don’t even take damage.

lulz. You’re clearly just bad at hitting opponents and taking advantage of the weaknesses of S/D, including chains, casts, aftercasts, evade durations being shorter than casts, etc. The last time I fought another S/D thief with my own, I did the vast majority of my damage with the auto attack. Simply knowing when to attack an S/D thief is all you need to be able to do in order to counter one. Flanking Strike does relatively low damage, and the positional implications of the skill along with its cast means that you can easily kill an S/D thief just by standing in place and swinging your sword. If you still can’t counter this, not sure what else there is to say other than L2P.

As for the actual topic… Diamond Skin was a really stupid change for multiple reasons. First off, it’s only good against condi necros anyways, which doesn’t do anything to help the currently awful state of eles anyways. Secondly, the idea of hard counters like this are bad anyways because they create an unhealthy game of chance where you just have to hope that your hard counter isn’t on the other team. Finally, it’s insanely annoying for condi necros in sPvP, where you’ll see a bunch of noob eles running Diamond Skin builds and the like just because they can finally beat a single class, which is all well and good but makes the game incredibly frustrating and pointless.

Not sure what ANet was thinking, if it was thinking at all, which I am beginning to suspect may have been the case.

Diamond Skin is kind of a pain but leeching and several other counters do exist for a Necro even though I agree that a CONTROL class that can’t control an opponent is utterly useless and requires specific builds in order to counter only one rendering the build useless in most other encounters.

How about Necro vs. Engi though:

“Man, this fight is dragging on forever…he keeps converting my damaging conditions into regen…this sucks.”
“Well, I finally whittled him down to 25% health so maybe it’s not so bad….WAIT! WTF!? He’s immune to conditions now?”
“Maybe if i just launch everthing I have at him, I can spike down this last 25% of his health…WAIT! WTF!? He used AED and has full health again!?! OMG this sucks”
“Well, I’m on full CD and I can see this isn’t really going anywhere…maybe i should just disenguage and go somewhere I can be useful…WAIT! WTF!? My profession lacks any mobility what-so-ever!?!”
“I wish this respawn timer would count down faster for me!”

The Game Slayer.7632:

Gesamtkunstwerk.6590:

I’ve been playing a dagger/dagger diamond skin condi ele in tpvp (0/0/30/20/20 w/ settler’s, i.e., 3,200 armor and 600 hp passive regen per second).

I just thought I’d pop in and say I find this thread highly amusing….

Lol, don’t you like the 12k health in that build? And the wet noodle damage too?

If you’re using d/d instead of s/d for a condi build, I imagine your dps is sloppy :P