Guild Wars 2

/fifteenforumbugs

GoogleBrandon.5073:

The thing is, the trait on it’s own is not OP – the synergy is… And it is all about max. potential, something that will rarely be reached, if ever by “the average player”. Sadly, I was not the one making a call, else I would say “See how it works out, balance it after”, but it was already stated it will be looked at
er ten seconds. I figure that a line “per target” would not be that hard to implement

Doesn’t mean you have to advertise it as too strong, just strong.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

And I do not think the system is incapable of doing so… Didn’t Chilling Nova have a restricted ICD? I thought it was three procs per ten seconds. I figure that a line “per target” would not be that hard to implement

It’s not about not being able but being able to do it efficiently (does it take too much time calculate? Does not use too much space? ). On it’s own it’s not but if a lot necro’s takes this option it might turn out to be a serious problem.

3 procs per second per target is also a nice idea. But that over nerfs it on single targets again. So i would say 5 procs per second per target. But then you may aswell just not have any ICD at all.

And i do agree. I dont think its OP at all. The chill is most likely going to be looked at because that will be strong on its own. And any reduction to chill will be an indirect nerf to this trait. Thus solving the problem in most cases. In other cases its probably justified for the reaper to get that many procs. Because it would require huge setup and investment to meet those ideal circumstances in PvP.

spoj.9672:

3 procs per second per target is also a nice idea. But that over nerfs it on single targets again. So i would say 5 procs per second per target. But then you may aswell just not have any ICD at all.

And i do agree. I dont think its OP at all. The chill is most likely going to be looked at because that will be strong on its own. And any reduction to chill will be an indirect nerf to this trait. Thus solving the problem in most cases. In other cases its probably justified for the reaper to get that many procs. Because it would require huge setup and investment to meet those ideal circumstances in PvP.

Well, the “issue” was that necro would vs 5 targets have the potential to have very passive 25 might+vuln, but as i pointed out before, a decent part of it can be attributed to other uninspired traits. For pvp its not much of any issue since the risk, cost and execution of the setup deserve such rewards (same as what used to be seen a lot with shatter mesmers dunking bunker guards or eles going 0 active defense glass for 1-3 people instakills if in a good situation), both things that werent actually nerfed, but shifted out of playstyle because people countered it and thus risk and cost for setup wasnt worth the reward.

Well, and following this train of thought (choochoo), this would mean chilling five targets, and hitting them all in quick succession with skills that hit five targets… On a Necromancer nontheless…. There is some poor reasoning indeed to have this trait be truly overpowering

I would love the devs to leave it as it is and see how it plays out to be fair… I am starting to doubt this trait more and more to being that overpowering, especially considering that most people aren’t bots and actually walk

Realisticly speaking, the scenario where you do hit five targets (somehow) in PvP is when it is either an AI heavy build, or everyone ganged up on you. The likelyhood of the only AI that actually works sometimes (Mesmer Clones) getting chilled and actually proc the trait is extremely minimal – whereas placing stationary AI like turrets and spirits (after the rework) should be punished in a way
And the fact that if five people gank you, you should have something that can sustain you/make you look creepy, instead of a green punching bag considering the lack of damage mitigation on both the Necromancer as well as the Reaper as a whole

It would be nice if the trait would stay this way for an open beta of say 2/3 days, with a grace time of 2 weeks before HoT – this would give everyone ample time to feel the trait in a realistic situation, and see how it actually plays out

While at first, I was sckeptical of the power of this trait, even synergizing with Blighter’s Boon, I don’t think either one needs a nerf. Chilling Force is conditional enough and the Might short enough that I can’t really see a situation when it would be OP. There are some impressive burst situations (like weapon swap to Hydromancy, then immedietly jump into RS and Spin2Win), but for actual sustain, it only works out to be a nice supplement.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

While at first, I was sckeptical of the power of this trait, even synergizing with Blighter’s Boon, I don’t think either one needs a nerf. Chilling Force is conditional enough and the Might short enough that I can’t really see a situation when it would be OP. There are some impressive burst situations (like weapon swap to Hydromancy, then immedietly jump into RS and Spin2Win), but for actual sustain, it only works out to be a nice supplement.

Completely agree. Its only really providing some burst synergy in PvP. In PvE its balanced because other classes can do better and we deserve something nice for a change.

Tim.6450:

This is all assuming perfect hits and chill uptime and chill is the second most easy removable condition (the first one is fear).

Actually, #2 will be taunt, which I believe will have the same mechanics as fear (both a CC that you can stunbreak and a condition that you can cleanse)

Not sure what makes chill #3 though, unless your talking about the number of possible applications, in which case I think Weakness, Torment or Confusion (as long as Perplexity Runes are not involved) would be conditions that are harder to maintain good stacks/uptime on. Or is it the number of traits that reduce soft CC durations? In which case Immobilized it’s probably easier to remove; more professions have access to it than chilled, true, but outside of Entangle, almost noone has the ability to quickly reapply it after you break it.

The might is ok as it is, look at it as the necro’s version of forceful greatsword.

Foefaller.1082:

Tim.6450:

This is all assuming perfect hits and chill uptime and chill is the second most easy removable condition (the first one is fear).

Actually, #2 will be taunt, which I believe will have the same mechanics as fear (both a CC that you can stunbreak and a condition that you can cleanse)

Not sure what makes chill #3 though, unless your talking about the number of possible applications, in which case I think Weakness, Torment or Confusion (as long as Perplexity Runes are not involved) would be conditions that are harder to maintain good stacks/uptime on. Or is it the number of traits that reduce soft CC durations? In which case Immobilized it’s probably easier to remove; more professions have access to it than chilled, true, but outside of Entangle, almost noone has the ability to quickly reapply it after you break it.

I forgot about taunt, so I suppose is #3.
It’s not only the anti mobility impeding condition traits, it’s the skills that remove them as well. The reason I place chill above immobilize and cripple is because immobilize stops some of the traditional condition removal (cleansing ire, evasive arcana and walking in a condittion removal field) and cripple because it is so abundant.

Also reapplying immoblizing fast? hammer/scepter guardian, entangle ranger, sword/bow warrior, interupt mesmer, every human character, … .

Tim.6450:

Foefaller.1082:

Tim.6450:

This is all assuming perfect hits and chill uptime and chill is the second most easy removable condition (the first one is fear).

Actually, #2 will be taunt, which I believe will have the same mechanics as fear (both a CC that you can stunbreak and a condition that you can cleanse)

Not sure what makes chill #3 though, unless your talking about the number of possible applications, in which case I think Weakness, Torment or Confusion (as long as Perplexity Runes are not involved) would be conditions that are harder to maintain good stacks/uptime on. Or is it the number of traits that reduce soft CC durations? In which case Immobilized it’s probably easier to remove; more professions have access to it than chilled, true, but outside of Entangle, almost noone has the ability to quickly reapply it after you break it.

I forgot about taunt, so I suppose is #3.

You did not forget Taunt. Taunt is not a condition. It is a control effect like stun or daze.

It is still hard to believe just how amazingly OP Reaper is against closely spaced target dummies!

I already feel stupid OP!

spoj.9672:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

While at first, I was sckeptical of the power of this trait, even synergizing with Blighter’s Boon, I don’t think either one needs a nerf. Chilling Force is conditional enough and the Might short enough that I can’t really see a situation when it would be OP. There are some impressive burst situations (like weapon swap to Hydromancy, then immedietly jump into RS and Spin2Win), but for actual sustain, it only works out to be a nice supplement.

Completely agree. Its only really providing some burst synergy in PvP. In PvE its balanced because other classes can do better and we deserve something nice for a change.

I’m not so concerned by the Might from Chilling Force. It might be powerful but due to the short duration it will require very skillful play to utilize it for burst or even maintain it.

However, the synergy with Blighers Boon is very troublesome. [Edit] Screwed up. Will redo the math. [Edit2] New numbers. Death Spiral could potentially grant you 18% (CF) plus 18% (BB) LF. Locust Swarm could grant you an additional 50% + 50% LF. Soul Spiral could potentially heal you for 7.3k. ‘You are weaklings’ could grant you 20% + 20% LF.

Those numbers are less efficient than on, for example, Guardians because of the higher healthpool. And, of course, this all asumes that your targets are chilled. This might be difficult to achieve depending on how the numbers turn out. As it is now, I’d assume it isn’t that hard after all, especially when using Chilling Nova. You also got to keep in mind that you can get additional sources of Might (Sigils, Runes, Food).

It’s not very appealing if traits or skills are balanced regarding the best case scenario. However, as long as this best scenario might be achievable at least in specific content, it is very likely to happen. I’d rather take an internal cooldown on Chilling Force and increase the Might duration instead of having Blighters Boon being gutted by a cooldown.

Xaylin.1860:

spoj.9672:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

While at first, I was sckeptical of the power of this trait, even synergizing with Blighter’s Boon, I don’t think either one needs a nerf. Chilling Force is conditional enough and the Might short enough that I can’t really see a situation when it would be OP. There are some impressive burst situations (like weapon swap to Hydromancy, then immedietly jump into RS and Spin2Win), but for actual sustain, it only works out to be a nice supplement.

Completely agree. Its only really providing some burst synergy in PvP. In PvE its balanced because other classes can do better and we deserve something nice for a change.

I’m not so concerned by the Might from Chilling Force. It might be powerful but due to the short duration it will require very skillful play to utilize it for burst or even maintain it.

However, the synergy with Blighers Boon is very troublesome. For example, Death Spiral could potentially provide you with 18 stacks of Might. That equals a 2.4k self heal. ‘You are weaklings’ could heal for 2.6k. One Locust Swarm could heal for 6.6k (665 health per second). One Soul Spiral could grant you 55% Life Force per use.

Those numbers are less efficient than on, for example, Guardians because of the higher healthpool. And, of course, this all asumes that your targets are chilled. This might be difficult to achieve depending on how the numbers turn out. As it is now, I’d assume it isn’t that hard after all, especially when using Chilling Nova. You also got to keep in mind that you can get additional sources of Might (Sigils, Runes, Food).

It’s not very appealing if traits or skills are balanced regarding the best case scenario. However, as long as this best scenario might be achievable at least in specific content, it is very likely to happen. I’d rather take an internal cooldown on Chilling Force and increase the Might duration instead of having Blighters Boon being gutted by a cooldown.

Core point/word: COULD and in those situations, if in a place where such balance matters, as a necro you get kittened either way (unlike others who have invul, skill evade frames and blocks).

P.S. You are also in that case giving up on chill does damage or faster attacks+mobility reset.

Gnaaaah! You quoted the wrong numbers!

Of course I forgo the other GM traits. How could this really be an argument against how powerful the named trait combination is? Also, yes, could. This doesn’t mean it is unrealistic or irrelevant for gameplay and balance.

The amount of potential LF gain and heals is insane. In any large scale fight Necros will be annoyingly durable especially when also going Soul Reaping with DS CD reduction and Foot in the Grave. You won’t be screwed unless a whole zerg is focussing you even without evades or invulnerabilities.

I’d rather take traits which work in small and large scale scenarios than traits which are overpowered in specific situations and totally useless in others.

We dont have active defence so we need insane sustain to survive an outnumbered fight. And its only insane in ideal circumstances for a very brief time. Once our rapid hit AOE abilities are on cooldown we only have slow hits. Which means are sustain drops off dramatically.

I’d like to see it in use, I think their are valid points that it could be overbearing in ideal spots, but shouldn’t be nerfed for regular use.

The bigger problems I am having with it right now is how easily it builds “free” sustain off of non-player enemies, since they can’t counterplay the chill/clumping up. If anything is nerfed though it should be the sustain from CF, not BB or the might gain, and it needs to be because it is noticeably overbearing in fairly regular situations, not something that is 1:1000000 chances.

The moment that first interrupt preceding the chain starts, “OP” goes out the window.

Literally one ele or other class with ready access to aoe cleanse in a team fight, and any hope of perma chill goes out the window.

Without chill on everything aroun you all this sustain goes out the window.

If this was based on something you applied to yourself, then it would be significantly different, but because it relies on a single condition applied to loads of enemies, it’s a whole load of variables stacked together to try achieve this, and even then, 3 guys focusing you down? I’d still pick a class with invuln every time.

War Mourner.5168:

Literally one ele or other class with ready access to aoe cleanse in a team fight, and any hope of perma chill goes out the window.

Without chill on everything aroun you all this sustain goes out the window.

If this was based on something you applied to yourself, then it would be significantly different, but because it relies on a single condition applied to loads of enemies, it’s a whole load of variables stacked together to try achieve this, and even then, 3 guys focusing you down? I’d still pick a class with invuln every time.

Exactly why i pointed out could and opportunity cost of it. Even in a ideal situation, the player sacrifices as much (long term/in upkeep and rotation requirement) as a instagib burst ele does (short term/in bursts).

Tho id want to point out again, (current preview versions of) Deathly Shivers, Siphoned Power and Deaths Embrace are additional triggers that could make reaper traits stronger than needed AND are very uninspired (or flat out wrong named) traits with little decision making influencing them.

I may very well end up being wrong, but I don’t think decimate defences will be worth using compared to chilling force in most situations.

In PvE, it’s already extremely easy to get very high crit chance on top of death perception, so the might will usually be more useful in terms of maximising dps, unless your party/you are already up to keep you stacked up as is.

In PvP, Chilling force allows for extra damage and sustain (especially combined with blighters). For a class without proper damage mitigation, I don’t think thats worth missing out on.

The long ICD on siphoned power stops that from being terrible powerful with blighters, but of course every little bit helps.

Also, in terms of investment to keep high chill uptime, chilling nova is pretty critical to do so, which means you can’t use augury. Without augury, shouts really just aren’t that fantastic, when they’re competing with other utility skills that aren’t so dependant on traits. If you take Augury over Chilling Nova, your chill application falls a lot.

In PvE chilling force will be used solo or in pug groups where you lack group might. In organised groups you will use decimate defences.

And in PvE you will never take augury because you will rarely take any shouts. :P

spoj.9672:

In PvE chilling force will be used solo or in pug groups where you lack group might. In organised groups you will use decimate defences.

And in PvE you will never take augury because you will rarely take any shouts. :P

I think in PvE, you will take Soul Eater in organised groups. Just a bit more damage on Greatsword is better than additional crit chance that you’re capping at anyway or might stacking that you are also capping out on.

Tim.6450:

Foefaller.1082:

Tim.6450:

This is all assuming perfect hits and chill uptime and chill is the second most easy removable condition (the first one is fear).

Actually, #2 will be taunt, which I believe will have the same mechanics as fear (both a CC that you can stunbreak and a condition that you can cleanse)

Not sure what makes chill #3 though, unless your talking about the number of possible applications, in which case I think Weakness, Torment or Confusion (as long as Perplexity Runes are not involved) would be conditions that are harder to maintain good stacks/uptime on. Or is it the number of traits that reduce soft CC durations? In which case Immobilized it’s probably easier to remove; more professions have access to it than chilled, true, but outside of Entangle, almost noone has the ability to quickly reapply it after you break it.

I forgot about taunt, so I suppose is #3.
It’s not only the anti mobility impeding condition traits, it’s the skills that remove them as well. The reason I place chill above immobilize and cripple is because immobilize stops some of the traditional condition removal (cleansing ire, evasive arcana and walking in a condittion removal field) and cripple because it is so abundant.

Also reapplying immoblizing fast? hammer/scepter guardian, entangle ranger, sword/bow warrior, interupt mesmer, every human character, … .

You’re right, I see Avatar of Melandru all the time :P Though I did completely forget about shoutbow War and Chaotic Interruption.

Also, it at the moment it looks like with the right build, Chill could be to Reapers what crippled is to other professions. Chill on GS AA chain (yes it’s slow, but IMO for an AA slow just means the other guy is more tempted to use his dodges/blocks/CC’s on that rather than the more dangerous stuff) Chill on RS 5, which will make an Ice field to whirl/shoot through for more chill, chill on two of the new shout skills, Chill on blind (which will be in Curses, which means pulsing chill on GS4 and Well of Darkness, as well as chill on Dagger 4 and Signet of Spite) Chill on Fear, AoE Chill when critting someone already chilled, Sigil of Ice/Hydromancy, Focus 5, Staff 3, Lich Form 3, Spectral Grasp, Reaper of Grenth for Human Necros…

Point is, if a Reaper really wanted to keep someone chilled, they could keep them chilled.