Guild Wars 2

Vampiric builds are essentially tanks. They’re just as effective as Minionmancers when build properly. They are not as bursty as a glass cannon, and not as tough as a Bunker, they lie in the middle.

Problem with siphon builds that don’t use minions, is that they lack all the tools that you really want when running a bunker-ish build besides the survivability, in PvP. PvE you can easily hold the aggro and life siphon builds are great. WvW our life siphon builds are very strong because you hit the limit of siphoning (wells).

However in PvP, non-minion siphon builds don’t work out as well (in my experience) because they lack damage and/or control (comparatively). Minion builds bring a lot of strong burst, sustained damage, and control, whereas siphon builds are more “selfish”; they don’t offer as much to the rest of the team besides a damage sponge. Not to say that your build isn’t different, because Necromancers have tons of hidden builds that work quite nicely, but I haven’t seen a non-minion siphon that does.

Video against 15-20 peoples or it never existed

First thing that doesn’t help the Vampire Traits:

It doesn’t scale with healing power. A mere 25 per hit is not going to save you. Thus showing us the video would help hehe.

Second thing:

You can’t benefit from all of those Vampiric traits when in DeathShroud, our class mechanic. First time I’ve seen a class mechanic hinder a trait choice like this. So if you pop your siphoning wells and at the same time you need to stay in DS to survive, it all goes to waste. Would be cool to heal our allies too but I’m digressing

That is incredibly false Bhawb. I seem to notice alot of bias towards minions in all of your posts…

Vampiric builds will offer just as much survivability and damage as a Minion build will, infact it’s probably a safer choice as you don’t have to rely on things that are very easily killed. The point of a Tank is damage mitigation, which Siphoning does effectively. When built properly, you can mitigate burning, and a few stacks of bleeds at 1200 condition damage using Dagger 2. Which no other class can do. Granted PvP Siphon builds are a little harder to work with because the best thing for it “Knight’s Gear” ends up being changed around kittenedly, so we get high HP, instead of high Toughness, which doesn’t synergize well with siphoning.

Full Ascended Knight’s Gear in PvE/WvW with Vampiric Runes with a Necromancer siphon trait line becomes incredibly fearsome. If Leeching scaled with healing power, I’d imagine we’d be the best tanks in the game. At the moment, we’re somewhat sub-par.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

That is incredibly false Bhawb. I seem to notice alot of bias towards minions in all of your posts…

Vampiric builds will offer just as much survivability and damage as a Minion build will, infact it’s probably a safer choice as you don’t have to rely on things that are very easily killed. The point of a Tank is damage mitigation, which Siphoning does effectively. When built properly, you can mitigate burning, and a few stacks of bleeds at 1200 condition damage using Dagger 2. Which no other class can do. Granted PvP Siphon builds are a little harder to work with because the best thing for it “Knight’s Gear” ends up being changed around kittenedly, so we get high HP, instead of high Toughness, which doesn’t synergize well with siphoning.

Full Ascended Knight’s Gear in PvE/WvW with Vampiric Runes with a Necromancer siphon trait line becomes incredibly fearsome. If Leeching scaled with healing power, I’d imagine we’d be the best tanks in the game. At the moment, we’re somewhat sub-par.

First, I specifically stated it was for PvP only, WvW/PvE siphon builds are very nice, and in my opinion work better than minion builds at the role of damage dealing-damage sponge.

In PvP however, I haven’t seen a single siphon build that doesn’t use minions that can hold up. Again, I’m not saying it can’t work, I’m saying I haven’t seen one that works. They don’t bring the same control, the siphoning is comparable (minion siphon vs well siphon), and the damage is much more consistent in a minion build (it is highly debatable that well siphoning is more reliable than minion). So unless there is something magic that I am missing that a siphon build can bring in that I can’t manage with a minion build, I don’t see when they would be wanted in a team.

@themighty,

Bhawb is correct, for wvw/pve its fine, but in pvp it will be lackluster, your wells siphon health, the more targets your wells hit the more hp you siphon, how many opponents are you gonna face at once in pvp aswell as having them stand in your wells? minions, even with their crap AI would be better suited for pvp siphon builds at least.

I put 15 points sometimes into my power build for some added survivability but I don’t feel it helps much unless I go 30 to get the well siphon, and again trying to get players to stay in wells is too hard unless they’re dumb. I can lock down with a dagger 3 into ds fear to keep them in a well but most classes can counter it. The problem i see with siphon builds is you need to go deep into the traits so you’ll lack on damage from the other traits, also the fact that healing power doesn’t scale for kitten :S

But saying that if they buffed scaling i’d love to run a siphon build

When you play against higher skilled players you will see its not great build.

The MM version in spvp is fine, sadly pets do not work in WvW.

Still its a fun build to play, I run it in WvW time to time the wells and melee damage on dagger does smash bad players quickly.

However if you are a duelist/roamer that wants the best possible build to handle people that know their class, its a terrible build you will get smashed with no hope vs a good player. Paired with a teammate that has snares stuns or imbo its usefulness starts to go back up again.

AirWick.1769:

I dont think there is any other profession without stealth or invunerability that can do that. I also took the assault head on.

Well herein lies the problem.

Guardian – Lots of blocks and Aegis and an outright invuln.
Warrior – Blocks as well as an outright invuln.
Engineer – Has at least an invuln in Elixir S.
Thief – Stealth, obviously, and evasion frame moves.
Mesmer – Stealth and evasion frame moves plus decoys.
Elementalist – Invulnerability moves.

The difference being that most other classes completely lose their pressure when they go invulnerable. Even DS has more pressure than the standard sources of damage evasion, which is why Necros can fill a niche as tanky builds with pressure.

“Do life siphon builds really not work?” (tPvP specific)

For the vast majority of players they “can” work, but when you are playing at higher levels of competition (r40+ premade v r40+ premade would be a good Mendoza line for this build) and everyone knows the game inside and out your team would have to basically build entirely around you to make it viable, and the return for that investment isn’t worth it to anyone. Essentially your damage just isn’t good enough to make it on really good teams, and you can’t bunker with it.

Based on the stats and utilities you posted I am guessing that you are playing around with a D/D, Staff, Cleric Ammy build or something similar. People that are trying to call this a duelist build are mistaken. It is survivable in 1v1’s, but where it is most useful is in team fights. Huge AoE uptime on Regen (300ish regen ticks), AoE full cleanse on staff 4, Dagger #3 into wells after you bait out a cleanse kills very efficiently and WoC on a point can be a total game change in a chaotic group fight. The 25% IMS is actually surprisingly effective at mitigating the kitability that dagger necros usually struggle with in lower level play. On Khylo it can actually run treb very well, because when forced to bail on the treb it can get to close or mid before being downed easily in most scenarios, and once it has teammates there to peel for it, it can reset in combat quite well. An additional bonus is the persistent IMS increase when carrying repair kits.

This is VERY fun to play. If leeching is ever made to scale with healing it would be viable even in high level play (IMO).

My thought is that if you are having fun with it, then play it. The big, bad “Meta Game” is really only relevant at levels of play that 95+% of gamers will never be a part of anyway. If you run on an organized team, then you will optimize your build for synergies there, but if you are just solo-queing or running in pick up groups, then this is a perfectly acceptable way to run your set up.

A few suggestions (however) would be to consider:

Lich Form for your elite rather than Plague. The short term bump in DPS can make all the difference in the world.

If you are running D/D consider Quickening Thirst (I bet you have 20 in blood anyway) and drop Locust for Undeath. The rez really is that big of a deal in tPvP.

GL HF

I’d like to stress something Myrmidian said: “if you are having fun with it, then play it.” +1 to that, +1 so hard.

This is my opinion of the meta in every single game I play: screw the meta. Don’t go out of your way to play something that is absolutely terrible, but if you have a build you enjoy to play, and are having fun with it, keep using it. Never forget that this is a game, and you play games to have fun.

Panhauramix.2784:

Video against 15-20 peoples or it never existed

Just jump into a zerg with chill traited WoD and Plague… you hold up to 30 seconds with marks into DS timing then instantly die.

AirWick.1769:

I can honestly say without a doubt their isnt any other profession other then my necromancer that can tank better. I have taken an assault in wvw against 12-20 enemy players and held for at least 15 seconds. I dont think there is any other profession without stealth or invunerability that can do that. I also took the assault head on.

A) there not their
B) The way of TANKING doesnt matter, both mesmers and engies get higher survivability via aegis reapplication, block and invul.

Overall on topic i made a post how to improve the numbers/make scailing of siphoning. Overall right now its lackluster for what you are giving up unless you are already in Blood magic for other reasons (well cd and/or transfusion). The one true siphoning skill that is worth it is actual dagger life siphon since it has a 100% power ratio and a 5% gealing power ratio being a true siphon skill that way (damage increases heal, heal increases damage.

Hehe I know you were bringing it up for good measure and fun but I’ll bite the bait. Plague seems so good for some peoples, yet everytime a necro tries it against me I just Spinal chiver, Corrupt boon or WoC his stability and off he goes with double-triple fear and all my group hits him from range. Necro can’t survive 20 sec in plague against 5 people who knows how to easily counter this, so even less against 15-20. And Plague AoE only hit up to 5 peoples anyway so zerg wins once again

Of course it can happens as WvW is full of players that doesn’t know how X professions works, but once they catch the trick, Plague doesn’t hold up as a survival tool vs other professions’ toolbox ( or toolkit ).

Panhauramix.2784:

Hehe I know you were bringing it up for good measure and fun but I’ll bite the bait. Plague seems so good for some peoples, yet everytime a necro tries it against me I just Spinal chiver, Corrupt boon or WoC his stability and off he goes with double-triple fear and all my group hits him from range. Necro can’t survive 20 sec in plague against 5 people who knows how to easily counter this, so even less against 15-20. And Plague AoE only hit up to 5 peoples anyway so zerg wins once again

Of course it can happens as WvW is full of players that doesn’t know how X professions works, but once they catch the trick, Plague doesn’t hold up as a survival tool vs other professions’ toolbox ( or toolkit ).

Hooking in the catch.
Well of power + Plague still quads your survival stats, a zerker warrior who isnt blinded all the time maybe gets up to 10k with a full 100b on soldier/any tough vit high necro in plague. But either way you shouldnt jump into a zerg as a necro in plague despite it being one of the best tanking skills in game since you are way better off dropping damage from walls and picking up free loot bags.

Last time i tried you couldnt corrupt stability on necro’s plague form. Never once worked when i tried it in tpvp so in the end i gave up trying to cc plagueform necro’s.

spoj.9672:

Last time i tried you couldnt corrupt stability on necro’s plague form. Never once worked when i tried it in tpvp so in the end i gave up trying to cc plagueform necro’s.

You can corrupt it in tPvP. I have done it. That is all.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

spoj.9672:

Last time i tried you couldnt corrupt stability on necro’s plague form. Never once worked when i tried it in tpvp so in the end i gave up trying to cc plagueform necro’s.

You can corrupt it in tPvP. I have done it. That is all.

Why has it failed everytime for me then?

Edit: Just realised i probably got blinded when using corrupt boon. But it doesnt explain why well of corruption has failed.

Am I the only one who doesn’t think siphon should scale with healing but with damage seems like a more necroish mechanic.

I corrupted every Stability buff in the game, be it on lich, plague, tornado, rampage as one, daggerstorm and all the others transformations that grants it. It’s one of the reason I love my necro and hate transformation myself, one button cancels 20-30 sec of Stability (and the big cooldown that goes with it) and you can now play ping-pong with a Lich or a Tornado. Best game breaking plan in history.

NeXeD.3042:

Am I the only one who doesn’t think siphon should scale with healing but with damage seems like a more necroish mechanic.

Not really, but then healing would still be a totally useless stat. It makes sense in that the deeper you cut, the more blood you draw, but it also makes sense for them to scale from the blood magic tree itself. Personally i would find a full power knight vampire necro totally awesome, and perhaps that could instead be achieved by putting some trait into our equally kittenty Spite tree.

If life siphoning scaled with healing power it could end up being a nerf. Poison effects healing. Im not 100% sure but doesnt life stealing ignore the heal debuff on poison? The best solution would be to make it scale with power or just give the base numbers a bit of a buff.

Nevermind just tested it. Life steal is reduced with poison. But seeing as the base healing is so low it barely makes a difference.

Ughh I dream about what a full knights necro would be like if it scaled on damage. Probably why it doesnt.