Guild Wars 2

I notice a lot of people talking about this, dunno I think we need a more sustainable way to reduce/slow incoming damage, that’s why I was making suggestions to add more opportunities to inflict weakness etc. We aren’t meant to zip around, port all over hide etc so if we’re are forced to face our foe and take said damage to the face we definitely need a way to reduce or slow incoming damage.

Look at the other classes, they have either stealth, blinds, aegis, vigor, protection, confusion or regeneration they can frequently and reliable pull off during combat which helps them survive. We get DS .. we can sometimes get it off more than 2 maybe 3 times during combat, depending on spec, but our abilities change while in it and again we take all that damage to the face … in light armor.

I think a lot of us are using DS now because they begin to lose health quickly and pop it to try and stay up, but then their chances go down even farther if they aren’t trait-ed for DS sustain or are stat-ed for conditions .. they don’t get the full perks of using DS, the DS lifebar gets eaten and they pop out low on health and die.

P.S Also I think asking for them to make it possible to have a balanced working life stealing spec at this time with the itty bitty updates they are looking to push through is asking to much at this time. They don’t seem like they’re looking to spend more than a few minutes changing code, animations calls so to be asking them to make life siphoning spec possible I think is asking too much at this time.

Getting heals/siphions while in ds isnt matter if we need buff or not. This mechanic should be standard and if would be too strong they should balanced us somewhere else. Its just lame that many traits and spells (regen, siphion and other players aoe heals) are not working with our core mechanic.

The bottleneck to our (lack of) attrition game play is definitely healing.
But I don’t think allowing it to go through Shroud is enough. If it was up to me I’d make all of our healing scale with opponents to a point where it could double or even tripple in effectiveness.
Most necro builds get to heal a quarter or maybe a third of their total hp every 25 seconds. That is weak sauce!
While anet has over time buffed our life force regeneration to be quite manageable und reasonable in regards to survivability, the current state of our regular healing is just no where near enough even if we could be healed in DS.

Of course you might argue that ally healing would compensate for that, but don’t forget: other classes with already good healing and survivability can get ally healing as well, always! And it would be foolish to balance with the assumption that your team mates start throwing heals at you as soon as they see black smoke.

Emapudapus.1307:

Getting heals/siphions while in ds isnt matter if we need buff or not. This mechanic should be standard and if would be too strong they should balanced us somewhere else. Its just lame that many traits and spells (regen, siphion and other players aoe heals) are not working with our core mechanic.

This really.

It would also be nice if it showed some difference between when your in death shroud and when your not on the UI for allies.
Not to mention it would also be very nice if we could see the CD of utilities/elites/heals while in death shroud.

As for life siphons. I believe (along with many others) that they should heal you while your in death shroud. I mean most abilities have a long CD or are only single target with a decent cast time so it’s not like they could be spammed.

Lastly when it comes to heals passing through death shroud to heal you. I believe it also should happen. Albeit at a very reduced rate, say 20-30%.

The combination of these 2 things would give necro’s better sustain without it becoming stupidly OP.

Depends on the game mode. But Emapudapus has it right, the issue isn’t entirely related to balance (although it would make certain builds better in PvP, builds that are currently subpar), it is more the fact that no one should have forced mechanics that counter each other. It is one thing for Lich/Plague to desummon minions (mechanics countering each other) it is another for our very profession mechanic and our main source of defense to actively counter an entire trait tree and another defensive mechanic.

It’s not only the traits that are the problem. Our class is balanced around the assumption that our class mechanics are on par with those of other classes, which they are not. The majority of PVE is against our two main strengths: conditions and control. Conditions have been broken since release, due to the condition cap, and the immunities/resistances all over PVE. Control skills are broken in PVE due to Defiant.

And it’s not that you can’t use conditions or control in PVE, but there are many cases where these two things just don’t work, while simple DPS works everywhere. So classes that are not focused on these two mechanics, yet are good in the DPS department, are good everywhere really. The fact that our class happens to hinge on these two mechanics that both have a lot of counters in PVE, while DPS stands unopposed is just a major issue that will always hold our class back.

If they ever want to balance this (which they never will I fear), mobs/bosses in PVE should have equal access to effective counters against DPS and AOE attacks as they do to condition and control counters. Likewise, Defiant should be reworked, and the condition cap should be removed. You can’t speak of balance, when classes like the warrior and guardian have no cap to their damage, and others do, and have to deal with immunities on top of that.

Keep in mind that all static world bosses are basically objects, and unaffected by conditions (like Tequatl), and all other bosses have reduced condition durations, or outright immunities. The recent new ability we’ve seen on bosses in the Crown Pavilion is an extra kick in the face for necromancers and all condition-users, since it eliminates more than half the conditions from having any effect at all. It is as if the entirety of the game pushes towards DPS, and DPS only.

If we got heals in ds we would he ridiculously op in pvp.

NeXeD.3042:

If we got heals in ds we would he ridiculously op in pvp.

Absolutely not.

We can’t heal ourselves, at best we’d get a little bit extra through regeneration. Bloodmagic and Parasitic Bond would be improved indirectly, but picking either one or both would mean a loss in damage or survivability somewhere else.
Basically it comes down to how much our allies would be able to heal us, and that should be possible either way. So arguing that an ally heal is balanced unless a necro receives it just doesn’t make sense.

I’m actually surprised to see so many people say we should only receive a percentage of healing in DS, or that it would be entirely overpowered. Neither is true. We need more healing and 100% through DS should just be the first step.

NeXeD.3042:

If we got heals in ds we would he ridiculously op in pvp.

If they started with self-traiting only, not at all. DS is awful at procing our siphoning, its weaker than literally every other weapon we have.

NeXeD.3042:

If we got heals in ds we would he ridiculously op in pvp.

Not heals,traited heal,not my friend shout war healing,my healing from trait points I spent.

wut? Necros have excellent sustain for their DPS output. Buffs aren’t needed.

kodesh.2851:

Necros have excellent sustain

lol

Nice try, Mr. Warrior.

Heals in DS? New pvp meta: 5 Necro running transfusion and unholy sanctuary. If they just allow necros to get healing in DS they’d have to overhaul the entire class to balance around it. I think they should just buff the scaling or base power (or both) of existing healing traits like unholy sanctuary. I’d actually prefer it if they increased scaling, as of now no reason to even consider getting +healing power

Cam Ron.4170:

If they just allow necros to get healing in DS they’d have to overhaul the entire class to balance around it.

That sentence alone makes it rather evident that you don’t know much about necros.

Cam Ron.4170:

New pvp meta: 5 Necro running transfusion and unholy sanctuary.

Not sure what Unholy Sanctuary has to do with it since it heals you in DS either way. Also, it’s a bad trait now and it will be after the patch. There is no build that could ever make use of it.

As to the 5x necro transfusion meta:

Again, Blood Magic is not viable unless you’re a minion master… and the viability of MMs is questionable by itself.
But generally the picture your are painting with your “necro-meta” is:
5 necros zerg all together on one point and they are healing each other for ~3k hp every 40 seconds. -_-
I won’t even go into detail on how horrible this build would be or how much you’d be sacrificing proper map rotation just to get this pathetically low heal once in a while. Yes I said low, because that’s what it is when your hp pool is 25k total and you don’t have access to blocks/teleports/stealth/invuln.

Again, 100% healing in DS is a start at best. If anything it’s a QoL improvment for coordinating heals in team fights, but it would barely increase survivabilty for necros overall.

Sagat.3285:

NeXeD.3042:

If we got heals in ds we would he ridiculously op in pvp.

Not heals,traited heal,not my friend shout war healing,my healing from trait points I spent.

Regen,siphon,parasitic contagion. All heals is a bad and imaginary start….

My point still stands considering it was not made clear we were talking about just our own traits healing us aka siphons… also considering it would seem some people don’t think us getting 100% heals wouldn’t make us wicked kittening op.

With that said I would be happier than Gallagher at a farmers market if we got that.

flow.6043:

kodesh.2851:

Necros have excellent sustain

lol

Nice try, Mr. Warrior.

Mesmer actually

But I also play necro, and even self heals only during DS would be really difficult to balance for PVP, imho.

kodesh.2851:

flow.6043:

kodesh.2851:

Necros have excellent sustain

lol

Nice try, Mr. Warrior.

Mesmer actually

But I also play necro, and even self heals only during DS would be really difficult to balance for PVP, imho.

Huh..wait.. wut??? Tell me one necro that picks those traits and says :" I’m proud of my choice and I can see it doing it’s purpose".However I fully understand if they don’t buff parasitic contagion because necro has been given the ability to spread conditions.
They made DS more condition friendly because people traited for conditions but they didn’t made it full condi mode unload,what could be hard about making DS healing friendly because we traited for it and not healing mode unload because not all heals would be allowed?

The main is that those traits are not fully doing their jobs because the class have been build to counter its own traits, even phantasm mesmer is not like that the phantasm are not underwhelming because shatter is main mechanic. Anyone that believes and can prove it’s OP for my traits to work properly please say so.

Cam Ron.4170:

Heals in DS? New pvp meta: 5 Necro running transfusion and unholy sanctuary. If they just allow necros to get healing in DS they’d have to overhaul the entire class to balance around it. I think they should just buff the scaling or base power (or both) of existing healing traits like unholy sanctuary. I’d actually prefer it if they increased scaling, as of now no reason to even consider getting +healing power

Uh oh, five slower than molasses necromancers doing absolutely no damage while they heal themselves for a little bit using an ability that is super easy to counter. What ever will we do?

Yeh we just need healing to work through DS that really is all we need imo.

You have to play a support/healing necro to realise how bad it is. Necro just can’t spec as a sustain class. It literally isn’t possible right now. You can wear clerics and take every sustain trait/skill and you will still die alot because the healing is terrible.

The Consume conditions heal is nice but the healing it provides is poor. We have to run it because contary to popular believe our anti condition ability is woeful. We cant peroidically remove conditions very well and just end up soaking up the damage with our large health pool.

This patch was a missed opportunity. Necro needs big changes to make it more fun and varied. One whole line which doesn’t work is not a good thing.

Lordrosicky.5813:

The Consume conditions heal is nice but the healing it provides is poor.

Wat.

Lordrosicky.5813:

We have to run it because contary to popular believe our anti condition ability is woeful.

Waaaaaaat.

Lordrosicky.5813:

We cant peroidically remove conditions very well and just end up soaking up the damage with our large health pool.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

Bhawb.7408:

Lordrosicky.5813:

The Consume conditions heal is nice but the healing it provides is poor.

Wat.

Lordrosicky.5813:

We have to run it because contary to popular believe our anti condition ability is woeful.

Waaaaaaat.

Lordrosicky.5813:

We cant peroidically remove conditions very well and just end up soaking up the damage with our large health pool.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.

IKR – It is Henry though. You still manage to blow my mind sometimes Henry. How is a 5240 base heal + 724 for every condition poor? The only time it might be mediocre is when you have no conditions on you. Apart from that, it is one of the best heals in the game hands down.

Well of Power, Plague Signet and Consume Conditions say hi.

Bhawb.7408:

Lordrosicky.5813:

The Consume conditions heal is nice but the healing it provides is poor.

Wat.

djooceboxblast.9876:

How is a 5240 base heal + 724 for every condition poor?

Henry is right.
The utility on it is nice but the healing is extremely poor when seen in context.
Again, healing and life force regen is all we have. There is no other damage mitigation for us. 18-25k hp and all you can do is 5k + some for each condi on a 25sec cd.
I get that some people say it’s a good heal when they compare it to other classes’ heals directly. But if you were to move it into perspective: it’s as if a guardian (10k base hp) could only heal 3k every 25 seconds, no additional healing, just that. But omg best heal in game because full cleanse!!

Bhawb.7408:

Lordrosicky.5813:

We have to run it because contary to popular believe our anti condition ability is woeful.

Waaaaaaat.

I wouldn’t say woeful, but he does have a point.
Without Consume most people just have Putrid Mark and Deathly Swarm.
I’m always running Well of Power anyway, but I would instantly pick up Plague Signet if I could drop Consume Conditions for a proper healing skill instead. As of now all other healing skills just heal you for even less hp, that’s why people are “stuck” with CC.

I didn’t say the heal was bad. I said it was nice. But I did say the healing isn’t great on it. The condi cleanse is obviously a huge part of the heal though.

And if you our anti-condition ability was great then some sort of tanky well spec would be viable because the potential healing with healing power from well of blood is huge and AoE.

There is so many condis in this game from even non condi classes like ele/warrior that you kind of have to run CC

I regularly heal for over 10k on it. It is a decent base heal, plus a large bonus per condition removed and it prevents all the negative effects of the rest of those conditions durations, plus it cannot be reduced by poison. It is by far one of the best single target heals in the game; other mechanics are an entirely different matter unrelated to CC.

Also, Necromancers have both the highest theoretical, and highest realistic cleansing in the game. 1 per DS use, full cleanse on heal, full cleanse on plague signet, 6 on well of power, 3 on Deathly Swarm (its only three right?) 3 per person hit by putrid mark, 1 per 10s per minion, 3 when someone is killed, full removal from lich 5; we have absolutely insane condition removal.

CC is taken because its our best healing skill for a selfish build, and it provides a massive anti-condi CD. You are by no means forced to use it, there are other builds that can deal with condis just fine without it. The reason tanky well specs don’t work is because they are bad for entirely different reasons, such as awful weapon sets for a tanky support.

3 per hit on Deathly Swarm. Meaning it’s quite possible for a necro to effectively have 4 total cleanses equipped via off-hand dagger, staff, consume conditions, and Plague Signet. So long as Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark hit 4 times, that’s 12 conditions transferred, and there are only 11 in the game!.

flow.6043:

NeXeD.3042:

If we got heals in ds we would he ridiculously op in pvp.

Absolutely not.

We can’t heal ourselves, at best we’d get a little bit extra through regeneration. Bloodmagic and Parasitic Bond would be improved indirectly, but picking either one or both would mean a loss in damage or survivability somewhere else.
Basically it comes down to how much our allies would be able to heal us, and that should be possible either way. So arguing that an ally heal is balanced unless a necro receives it just doesn’t make sense.

I’m actually surprised to see so many people say we should only receive a percentage of healing in DS, or that it would be entirely overpowered. Neither is true. We need more healing and 100% through DS should just be the first step.

Not entirely true

Wells would be far more relevant if running vampiric rituals and wob. The healing would be real.

But you’re also super right about outside healing. They’ve tested allowing healing in DS. They found that a necro can become invincible.

My issue is that it solves one problem and brings up another. I’m not sure why there can’t be a sub mechanic to DS that relates directly to healing or even just outside heals. There are several methods they could use to still make healing compatible with our class mechanic without fully allowing heals (if that makes any sense).

Bhawb.7408:

I regularly heal for over 10k on it. It is a decent base heal, plus a large bonus per condition removed…

Yeah, 10k would be a nice base heal. But a non-cleric build neither gets a decent base nor a large bonus. And a full healing power MM necro like yourself should definitely not heal for barely half of his total hp. Other classes can fill their hp in the same time many times over without having to invest that heavily into healing.
What you’re getting so hyped about is the skill’s utility, and everyone agrees here, it is great. However, the amount it heals for is bad. Why? Because it’s a necro skill. If other classes had access to it as well then some of them would be rather happy I’d imagine, but for us it’s just not enough.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So long as Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark hit 4 times, that’s 12 conditions transferred, and there are only 11 in the game!.

There are 12 conditions in the game, and you can even transfer fear if you precast the skills.

TheDevice.2751:

But you’re also super right about outside healing. They’ve tested allowing healing in DS. They found that a necro can become invincible.

I’d really like to know how they tested this.
There might be a theoretical scenario where 4 guardians are perma healing a necro, but I don’t think there’s any way to run a viable team composition that could actually make use of this in a real match.

I haven’t heard of them testing the specific thing that we are asking for. Maybe allowing all healing, but not specific only Necro traits + regen.

Also, I don’t believe that healing should be a % of your HP. Few things in the game (besides LF) work on a % of HP. Yes a thief might be able to heal for 80% of his HP, but if we have the same armor his 5k heal isn’t any better than my 5k HP, even though it is a larger % increase. Trust me, my MM shouldn’t be healing for the same % of its HP as a comparatively glassy build.

A 5.2k base heal is absolutely reasonable for its CD, and its heal per condition at base 700 is also really nice. If it was just a scaling heal then sure it would be on the weaker side of things (compared to the Warrior heal that scales with adrenaline, and reaches a max of 9k + HP), but its not, you can’t just divorce its utility from how much healing it gives you.

flow.6043:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So long as Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark hit 4 times, that’s 12 conditions transferred, and there are only 11 in the game!.

There are 12 conditions in the game, and you can even transfer fear if you precast the skills.

You’re right. I didn’t count Blind because that is the one condition that Deathly Swarm can’t transfer.

Putrid Mark, however, will do so.

Traited heal…….NOT ALL……….

Life siphons and regeneration should be allowed in DS. Both are long term heals not burst. It is just wrong that our main class mechanic works against long term heals if we are supposed to be an attrition fighter.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

flow.6043:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

So long as Deathly Swarm and Putrid Mark hit 4 times, that’s 12 conditions transferred, and there are only 11 in the game!.

There are 12 conditions in the game, and you can even transfer fear if you precast the skills.

You’re right. I didn’t count Blind because that is the one condition that Deathly Swarm can’t transfer.

Putrid Mark, however, will do so.

Deathly Swarm does “technically” transfer blind (blind will not cause it to miss!). The thing is only that the skill itself causes blind and blind is not stackable so…

When did they make Deathly Swarm hit through Blind? I remember them doing that for Putrid Mark and Plague Signet, but not Deathly Swarm.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

When did they make Deathly Swarm hit through Blind? I remember them doing that for Putrid Mark and Plague Signet, but not Deathly Swarm.

Yeah but that was a bug, which they fixed. It was always intended to transfer blind.

Just for kicks, what if SoV’s passive still worked inDS. Maybe it does but it feels weak.

It would be nice if the passive was a percent of damage out of DS and a percentage of life force damage or health inside DS. The flat rate passive heal it has right now is not impressive.

CC is extremely valuable to me for its full cleanse on demand. Necro does not have an abundance of passive cleanses.

Yep, all transfers are supposed to transfer through blind, just like boon removals are supposed to hit through Aegis (although Axe 3 doesn’t, Axe 2gud).

I used to be against something like this, even though I’ve played necro in WvW pretty frequently ever since I started. I’ve been trying out a DS crit build for WvW recently though…and it’s made me see how massive of a problem this really is.

I don’t care if it’s a trait. Re-work Unholy Sanctuary so it makes you able to be healed, without the passive regen, whatever, just let us be healed somehow. In zergs, it’s way too easy to miss all the healing when you run over toward a water field while in DS, and if your health is really low, you’ll die before you get there if you leave it too early.

If you’re using DS as your main damage source, this is even more problematic, because you spend a very large percentage of your time in Death Shroud. I honestly don’t think this would make necros OP. It’s not going to fix our glaring weakness against CC and lack of mobility (which is fine for the most part, every class needs weaknesses) – it’ll just even the odds a little bit.

It doesn’t make sense for us to be punished so much for using our class mechanic. They’re finally fixing the rezzing/stomp/interaction issue with DS, but that’s only the start of the drawbacks.