Guild Wars 2

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

The thing is build diversity. Play a glass/proc based condi mancer and this changes isnt noticeable at all, partly because you probably dont even run this trait. However there are fringe sustain specs and many powerful power specs that do rely on significant time in DS and spamming ds1. It wouldnt be so much of an issue if the cds on necro skills werent so long.

It isnt the VP nerf alone, it is the fact 14 other traits got nerfed as a result of this change. Any class which sees 14 of their traits nerfed in a single patch is probably not going to be in a good spot.

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

+1

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with the old VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Even in raids, the QT benchmarks exit shroud the moment their RS4 finishes, iirc. If you’re getting hammered in PvP, VP won’t matter, and if you aren’t getting hammered you shouldn’t be camping shroud anyways.

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

+++++++++1

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Speed of shadows is one of those traits, there are a lot more, someone actually posted them in another thread.

Shroud is used both offensively and defensively, you do not simply use it to attack. You can use it as a second health bar to sustain through damage. VP allowed necromancers extra time in shroud to survive. Unfortunately conditions shred life force very fast, and condition spam is the meta and is not changing so this will hurt necromancers even more.

The shroud mechanic is the main reason why necromancer lack proper survival skills that other classes have like escapes, stun breaks, stability etc.

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Speed of shadows is one of those traits, there are a lot more, someone actually posted them in another thread.

Shroud is used both offensively and defensively, you do not simply use it to attack. You can use it as a second health bar to sustain through damage. VP allowed necromancers extra time in shroud to survive. Unfortunately conditions shred life force very fast, and condition spam is the meta and is not changing so this will hurt necromancers even more.

The shroud mechanic is the main reason why necromancer lack proper survival skills that other classes have like escapes, stun breaks, stability etc.

You actually have more LF now to soak the condition damage, which doesn’t occur in flat percentages. Over time, yes you lose 25 seconds worth, but unless you’re sticking around doing nothing you still have ample time to deal with the conditions, which again, you should be dealing with out of shroud.

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Speed of shadows is one of those traits, there are a lot more, someone actually posted them in another thread.

Shroud is used both offensively and defensively, you do not simply use it to attack. You can use it as a second health bar to sustain through damage. VP allowed necromancers extra time in shroud to survive. Unfortunately conditions shred life force very fast, and condition spam is the meta and is not changing so this will hurt necromancers even more.

The shroud mechanic is the main reason why necromancer lack proper survival skills that other classes have like escapes, stun breaks, stability etc.

You actually have more LF now to soak the condition damage, which doesn’t occur in flat percentages. Over time, yes you lose 25 seconds worth, but unless you’re sticking around doing nothing you still have ample time to deal with the conditions, which again, you should be dealing with out of shroud.

Ok..I am not even sure how to respond to that…

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Speed of shadows is one of those traits, there are a lot more, someone actually posted them in another thread.

Shroud is used both offensively and defensively, you do not simply use it to attack. You can use it as a second health bar to sustain through damage. VP allowed necromancers extra time in shroud to survive. Unfortunately conditions shred life force very fast, and condition spam is the meta and is not changing so this will hurt necromancers even more.

The shroud mechanic is the main reason why necromancer lack proper survival skills that other classes have like escapes, stun breaks, stability etc.

You actually have more LF now to soak the condition damage, which doesn’t occur in flat percentages. Over time, yes you lose 25 seconds worth, but unless you’re sticking around doing nothing you still have ample time to deal with the conditions, which again, you should be dealing with out of shroud.

as you say do the math was a huge nerf and can’t be defended in any way

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Speed of shadows is one of those traits, there are a lot more, someone actually posted them in another thread.

Shroud is used both offensively and defensively, you do not simply use it to attack. You can use it as a second health bar to sustain through damage. VP allowed necromancers extra time in shroud to survive. Unfortunately conditions shred life force very fast, and condition spam is the meta and is not changing so this will hurt necromancers even more.

The shroud mechanic is the main reason why necromancer lack proper survival skills that other classes have like escapes, stun breaks, stability etc.

You actually have more LF now to soak the condition damage, which doesn’t occur in flat percentages. Over time, yes you lose 25 seconds worth, but unless you’re sticking around doing nothing you still have ample time to deal with the conditions, which again, you should be dealing with out of shroud.

Ok..I am not even sure how to respond to that…

I’m saying that VP is bad of you camp shroud, which is inherently a bad thing to do. You have more options outside of shroud, which when utilised properly is not completely affected by the VP nerf.

SoS is more harmful in the grand scheme of things. But it does open a door for better mobility.

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

Are you talking about Speed of Shadows? Because I can agree on that.

What kind of synergy and rotation are you talking about in terms of VP? Its not like with VP you’d wait out the CD on a RS4 to use RS4 again.

Speed of shadows is one of those traits, there are a lot more, someone actually posted them in another thread.

Shroud is used both offensively and defensively, you do not simply use it to attack. You can use it as a second health bar to sustain through damage. VP allowed necromancers extra time in shroud to survive. Unfortunately conditions shred life force very fast, and condition spam is the meta and is not changing so this will hurt necromancers even more.

The shroud mechanic is the main reason why necromancer lack proper survival skills that other classes have like escapes, stun breaks, stability etc.

You actually have more LF now to soak the condition damage, which doesn’t occur in flat percentages. Over time, yes you lose 25 seconds worth, but unless you’re sticking around doing nothing you still have ample time to deal with the conditions, which again, you should be dealing with out of shroud.

Ok..I am not even sure how to respond to that…

I’m saying that VP is bad of you camp shroud, which is inherently a bad thing to do. You have more options outside of shroud, which when utilised properly is not completely affected by the VP nerf.

SoS is more harmful in the grand scheme of things. But it does open a door for better mobility.

Just curious, how much experience do you have playing a necromancer?

Since beta. Also got to high platinum.

Ramoth.9064:

Since beta. Also got to high platinum.

Ok fair enough, I am just a little confused by some of your posts, or maybe I am just misunderstanding them lol.

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Since beta. Also got to high platinum.

Ok fair enough, I am just a little confused by some of your posts, or maybe I am just misunderstanding them lol.

Firstly, I’m not saying VP isn’t nerfed. It is. Personally I think its just been blown way overboard. I use VP myself because I rarely use spectrals.

In that list you posted earlier, most of the traits can reach their full capacity without VP, and that’s not even considering all the OTHER traits that they synergize with.

IMHO, in a spvp scenario, the VP nerf hurts most in a 1v1 scenario, where the incoming damage is more spread out over time. If you were getting focused by 2 or 3 people, the damage would deplete shroud dramatically for VP’s decay to be negligible.

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

For me it’s a matter of tankiness and how easy to get back my Shroud is after coming out. Didn’t do much PvP but VP was my go to in WvW except when I made a glass Shroud thief hunter build that utilized the spectral trait. Same with PvE. Every kitten percentage point counts because we don’t have defensive tools to deal with things like other classes have (blocks, invul, etc.). Blind is useless in the PvE setting since all bosses are immune to it.

Then i look at the loss of plagueform and the change to epidemic and necro doesn’t even feel like a shadow of its former self anymore.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

Look I’m not saying it isn’t a nerf, it’s just that I think the scenarios where VP makes a considerable difference over no VP is not as much as what people are saying at the moment.

And across many game modes camping shroud is just not a good thing to do to begin with.

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

In pvp yes there are many builds where you spend time in DS spamming 1

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

In pvp yes there are many builds where you spend time in DS spamming 1

For a full 50 seconds? Mind you, the more damage you take, the less of a difference VP makes.

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

In pvp yes there are many builds where you spend time in DS spamming 1

For a full 50 seconds? Mind you, the more damage you take, the less of a difference VP makes.

Why are you on about the full 50 seconds? This doesnt matter because death shroud is a resource. If you get to 25 stacks of might with 2k death shroud left that is way way way worse than getting to 25 stacks of might with 10k death shroud left (numbers are just for demonstrations, not accurate)

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

In pvp yes there are many builds where you spend time in DS spamming 1

For a full 50 seconds? Mind you, the more damage you take, the less of a difference VP makes.

Why are you on about the full 50 seconds? This doesnt matter because death shroud is a resource. If you get to 25 stacks of might with 2k death shroud left that is way way way worse than getting to 25 stacks of might with 10k death shroud left (numbers are just for demonstrations, not accurate)

The old VP let’s you sit in shroud for 50 seconds… As opposed to 25. And the situations used to illustrate the 50vs25 are unrealistic.

In a realistic scenario, when you have damage to deal with, CC to use, it’s not likely you’ll see the full effect of the 25 second benefit.

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

In pvp yes there are many builds where you spend time in DS spamming 1

For a full 50 seconds? Mind you, the more damage you take, the less of a difference VP makes.

Why are you on about the full 50 seconds? This doesnt matter because death shroud is a resource. If you get to 25 stacks of might with 2k death shroud left that is way way way worse than getting to 25 stacks of might with 10k death shroud left (numbers are just for demonstrations, not accurate)

The old VP let’s you sit in shroud for 50 seconds… As opposed to 25. And the situations used to illustrate the 50vs25 are unrealistic.

In a realistic scenario, when you have damage to deal with, CC to use, it’s not likely you’ll see the full effect of the 25 second benefit.

You have twisted this conversation into something it isnt. The point made was that traits which synergise with vital persistence are now a lot worse. And there is a lot of traits which synergised with vital persistence so that is a lot of nerfed traits.

That is it. If you disagree or do not understand this then I dont think we are going to progress this conversation as we obviously fundamentally disagree.

This is different to other trait nerfs. For example the dhuumfire nerf was considerable but only effected that single trait. This trait is the core of the necro profession for a lot of specs and many traits are not viable at all without using vital persistence too.

I am talking about pvp, I dont know about pve. I was the highest rated solo player on EU prior to HOT. I quit when HOT came out, returned for a few months during the solo queue and easily got to legend despite not having played for 2 years. I know this change is huge for pvp necros.

Well, the vital persistence nerf had to be done. The reduced decay effect was way to overwhelming to leave any room for other traits.

And, Lordrosiky, sure all these traits are undirectly nerfed by this change but all build that didn’t use VP have been made competitive at the same time. The only thing that is scarry is that they shifted the reliance on VP to a reliance on the signet trait. An unsightly move if I can say…

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Ramoth.9064:

Serenity.6135:

Here is a list posted by another player:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They nerfed the following traits by up to 50% indirectly:

Repears might
Rending shroud
Signets of suffering
Armored shroud
Shrouded removal
Deadly Strength
Unholy Sanctuary
Unholy Martyr
Unyielding blast
Death perception
Dhuumfire
Relentless Pursuit
Blighters boon

add speed of shadows

That isn’t entirely correct. For instance, you don’t need 50 seconds of shroud to get 25 might with reapers might, you only need just under 20, talking reaper btw. Which would still be an impractical thing to do.

???

You can still use reapers might to its full affect without VP. It takes a reaper less than 20 seconds to do 25 autoattcks in RS.

The point is you are running a spec where you want to spam 1 in RS then you are staying in DS for longer than a few seconds. The longer you stay in RS the more shroud you lose with this change. So the trait is nerfed by making it less desirable to now stay in death shroud for any extended period of times. Thus all the traits which mean make use of death shroud for more than a few seconds are worse because to utilise those traits to their fullest potential you will then have less HP (via less RS)

Are we talking PvP here? Because I wouldn’t waste my shroud spamming RS1. You wouldn’t do that raiding either and if its general PVE well, tbh anything goes. And yes, VP does hurt a few things like blighters boon, sure. Its definitely not as expansive as that list you say.

In pvp yes there are many builds where you spend time in DS spamming 1

For a full 50 seconds? Mind you, the more damage you take, the less of a difference VP makes.

Why are you on about the full 50 seconds? This doesnt matter because death shroud is a resource. If you get to 25 stacks of might with 2k death shroud left that is way way way worse than getting to 25 stacks of might with 10k death shroud left (numbers are just for demonstrations, not accurate)

The old VP let’s you sit in shroud for 50 seconds… As opposed to 25. And the situations used to illustrate the 50vs25 are unrealistic.

In a realistic scenario, when you have damage to deal with, CC to use, it’s not likely you’ll see the full effect of the 25 second benefit.

You have twisted this conversation into something it isnt. The point made was that traits which synergise with vital persistence are now a lot worse. And there is a lot of traits which synergised with vital persistence so that is a lot of nerfed traits.

That is it. If you disagree or do not understand this then I dont think we are going to progress this conversation as we obviously fundamentally disagree.

This is different to other trait nerfs. For example the dhuumfire nerf was considerable but only effected that single trait. This trait is the core of the necro profession for a lot of specs and many traits are not viable at all without using vital persistence too.

I am talking about pvp, I dont know about pve. I was the highest rated solo player on EU prior to HOT. I quit when HOT came out, returned for a few months during the solo queue and easily got to legend despite not having played for 2 years. I know this change is huge for pvp necros.

Well i thought it was obvious we don’t fundamentally agree to begin with, and I’m ok with that.

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

im 100% sure your not playing anykind of working Power build thats for freaking sure…
your those condi meta boys am i right ?

as a Power Reaper ALLOT of our dmg is in the form… ALLOT…

Not having that trait is like taking constant damage over time while in shroud.

Reaper doesn’t have the ability to spam blocks, evades, mists, distorts, invulns, auto cleanses, leaps, instant cast CCs nor any reasonable access to mobility without sacrificing it’s current condi management and stun breaks.

All it has is slightly more chill than revs and eles, the ability to corrupt boons, and a 2nd healthbar.

That 2nd healthbar just got cut in half despite it already being well known to perform poorly in most 1v1 scenarios.

As far as PvP goes, I don’t see much of a reason to continue using it. Other classes can do the same job without having to be nearly as dependent on ele support.

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

im 100% sure your not playing anykind of working Power build thats for freaking sure…
your those condi meta boys am i right ?

as a Power Reaper ALLOT of our dmg is in the form… ALLOT…

Ok, then I’m sure you’re setting because I’ve been playing power the last two seasons.

Dadnir.5038:

Well, the vital persistence nerf had to be done. The reduced decay effect was way to overwhelming to leave any room for other traits.

And, Lordrosiky, sure all these traits are undirectly nerfed by this change but all build that didn’t use VP have been made competitive at the same time. The only thing that is scarry is that they shifted the reliance on VP to a reliance on the signet trait. An unsightly move if I can say…

Yes but traits that depended on VP for viability such as shrouded removal and unholy santuary should have been buffed when this trait was nerfed. And if they didnt do it now then they will never do it.

The traits listed are at the level of strength which makes them kind of ok when coupled with VP. Now VP no longer exists these traits are just bad. They were balanced around VP existing previously

The problem is these traits will take at least 3-4 years to be buffed to the point of being usable. Shrouded removal will not be usuable until this game dies most likely. Such is the speed they balance at.

If you instantly make 10-15 traits totally useless then this damages build diversity a lot.

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

im 100% sure your not playing anykind of working Power build thats for freaking sure…
your those condi meta boys am i right ?

as a Power Reaper ALLOT of our dmg is in the form… ALLOT…

Ok, then I’m sure you’re setting because I’ve been playing power the last two seasons.

pocket ele ?

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

im 100% sure your not playing anykind of working Power build thats for freaking sure…
your those condi meta boys am i right ?

as a Power Reaper ALLOT of our dmg is in the form… ALLOT…

Ok, then I’m sure you’re setting because I’ve been playing power the last two seasons.

pocket ele ?

No. And if you’re not contributing to the conversion I’ll refrain from replying to you. I’m happy for anyone to disagree with me, but personally I don’t think this is the end of Necro

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

im 100% sure your not playing anykind of working Power build thats for freaking sure…
your those condi meta boys am i right ?

as a Power Reaper ALLOT of our dmg is in the form… ALLOT…

Ok, then I’m sure you’re setting because I’ve been playing power the last two seasons.

pocket ele ?

No. And if you’re not contributing to the conversion I’ll refrain from replying to you. I’m happy for anyone to disagree with me, but personally I don’t think this is the end of Necro

There can still be specs which exist that dont sit in death shroud. Of course there can. A proc based spec on condi necro will be really strong still for example. The point is one of build diversity and varied play styles. There is now many less ways to build a necro. Fringe builds which were kind of bad are now worthless. Power necro based around death shroud is also now really nerfed.

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Zoltreez.6435:

Ramoth.9064:

Yeah sure, there’s barely a silver lining to VP getting nerfed, but even without it, at over 50%, its enough to pull off an RS4, RS5 and a couple auto chains of RS1 for good measure.

I’m talking PvP of course. You can still sponge burst attacks with shroud, even more than before if you pick up the new VP.

Its really not the end of the world.

Unless you are camping shroud of course, in which case LOL.

im 100% sure your not playing anykind of working Power build thats for freaking sure…
your those condi meta boys am i right ?

as a Power Reaper ALLOT of our dmg is in the form… ALLOT…

Ok, then I’m sure you’re setting because I’ve been playing power the last two seasons.

pocket ele ?

No. And if you’re not contributing to the conversion I’ll refrain from replying to you. I’m happy for anyone to disagree with me, but personally I don’t think this is the end of Necro

There can still be specs which exist that dont sit in death shroud. Of course there can. A proc based spec on condi necro will be really strong still for example. The point is one of build diversity and varied play styles. There is now many less ways to build a necro. Fringe builds which were kind of bad are now worthless. Power necro based around death shroud is also now really nerfed.

I think he is a whiteknight he wont gonna under stand it….

most of the Power Builds and even some of the condy builds got pounded to the ground… with these changes…..

People who disagree with you = white knight? Are you 5? See what I did there?

talks the one that Disagrees with Everyone lol

you realy don’t think that what your defending is just wrong when every single person disagrees with you ?

your the only person here saying its fine lol and not just in this topic but in the entire necro sub forum….

but sure defend a totaly obivious Balancing fail from the Devs part…..

Time magazine also applauded kitten in 1939 btw.

A class that’s already somewhat weak and gets nerf and this guy come to say is ok, is not that bad. A class that ppl play they want it to be strong not will be ok, will servive, is not a strong state a class is in and should not get any sort of nerf.

Im no pvp superstar but when being focussed i rely on ds to soak up spike so my cds reset on whatever and getting into ds with its 10 sec cd will be interesting. Im keen to see builds posted that wrk, power tht is with the same effectiveness as what we were at. Show us.

Kaylon.5640:

A class that’s already somewhat weak and gets nerf and this guy come to say is ok, is not that bad. A class that ppl play they want it to be strong not will be ok, will servive, is not a strong state a class is in and should not get any sort of nerf.

Devs be like:

a Class is weak ? Under used ? has many issues ?

well….

lets nerf it more……..

Lordrosicky.5813:

Dadnir.5038:

Well, the vital persistence nerf had to be done. The reduced decay effect was way to overwhelming to leave any room for other traits.

And, Lordrosiky, sure all these traits are undirectly nerfed by this change but all build that didn’t use VP have been made competitive at the same time. The only thing that is scarry is that they shifted the reliance on VP to a reliance on the signet trait. An unsightly move if I can say…

Yes but traits that depended on VP for viability such as shrouded removal and unholy santuary should have been buffed when this trait was nerfed. And if they didnt do it now then they will never do it.

The traits listed are at the level of strength which makes them kind of ok when coupled with VP. Now VP no longer exists these traits are just bad. They were balanced around VP existing previously

The problem is these traits will take at least 3-4 years to be buffed to the point of being usable. Shrouded removal will not be usuable until this game dies most likely. Such is the speed they balance at.

If you instantly make 10-15 traits totally useless then this damages build diversity a lot.

I don’t disagree with you, but still VP reduced decay has to go. The trait was an issue, not a negative issue but a positive issue. The other traits have been weakened indirectly but it is not that bad. The “on shroud skill 1” traits won’t really lose any real efficiency while the “while in shroud” traits might be relient on the signet trait and signet of undeath (well… yeah, saying it feel like having poop in my mouth)

Like I said the real worry come from the signet trait. I don’t get what the hell happen in the dev minds for them to thoughtlessly transform this trait into a “must have in any build” trait. Wanna keep moving freely while in shroud? must take the signet trait and locust signet! Wanna reduce partially my life force decay? must take signet of undeath and signet trait or signet trait, unholy martyr and plague signet! Wanna have some easy regen in shroud? better take signet of vampirism and the signet’s trait!

This is the stupidest thing that they could do to the necromancer. Well… in my eyes their “rework” of the lich form is at the same level of stupidity thought.

Dadnir.5038:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Dadnir.5038:

Well, the vital persistence nerf had to be done. The reduced decay effect was way to overwhelming to leave any room for other traits.

And, Lordrosiky, sure all these traits are undirectly nerfed by this change but all build that didn’t use VP have been made competitive at the same time. The only thing that is scarry is that they shifted the reliance on VP to a reliance on the signet trait. An unsightly move if I can say…

Yes but traits that depended on VP for viability such as shrouded removal and unholy santuary should have been buffed when this trait was nerfed. And if they didnt do it now then they will never do it.

The traits listed are at the level of strength which makes them kind of ok when coupled with VP. Now VP no longer exists these traits are just bad. They were balanced around VP existing previously

The problem is these traits will take at least 3-4 years to be buffed to the point of being usable. Shrouded removal will not be usuable until this game dies most likely. Such is the speed they balance at.

If you instantly make 10-15 traits totally useless then this damages build diversity a lot.

I don’t disagree with you, but still VP reduced decay has to go. The trait was an issue, not a negative issue but a positive issue. The other traits have been weakened indirectly but it is not that bad. The “on shroud skill 1” traits won’t really lose any real efficiency while the “while in shroud” traits might be relient on the signet trait and signet of undeath (well… yeah, saying it feel like having poop in my mouth)

Like I said the real worry come from the signet trait. I don’t get what the hell happen in the dev minds for them to thoughtlessly transform this trait into a “must have in any build” trait. Wanna keep moving freely while in shroud? must take the signet trait and locust signet! Wanna reduce partially my life force decay? must take signet of undeath and signet trait or signet trait, unholy martyr and plague signet! Wanna have some easy regen in shroud? better take signet of vampirism and the signet’s trait!

This is the stupidest thing that they could do to the necromancer. Well… in my eyes their “rework” of the lich form is at the same level of stupidity thought.

Why is the signet trait “must have”. For pvp it is likely complete garbage. Totally unviable. I havent tested it but I am almost certain I am right.

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

The Speed of Shadows nerf-to-end-all-nerfs was delivered quietly at the end of the Necro section.

This is what it used to do:

Increases movement speed while in shroud. Reduces recharge on shroud.

Miscellaneous effect.png Movement speed increase: 25%
Count Recharge.png Recharge Reduced: 30%

WHAT A MESS! Where’s the petition? Fire the balance team!

Lordrosicky.5813:

Why is the signet trait “must have”. For pvp it is likely complete garbage. Totally unviable. I havent tested it but I am almost certain I am right.

It basically shift what you lost from VP to the signets passive effect. If you depended from VP, the loss are compensated throught the passive of the signets and to have it in shroud you need the goddarn trait.

Ramoth,

in short… yes.

In medium short its necro losing 10k hp.

In long version of what this means for pvp, matchups, skill rotations and needed extra lf utilities… lets just not. Im too old, too casual now, matchamking is working, population is high and game is beautiful. lets enjoy it

Flumek.9043:

lets enjoy it

I’m not into S&M but thanks for the suggestion.

Dadnir.5038:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Why is the signet trait “must have”. For pvp it is likely complete garbage. Totally unviable. I havent tested it but I am almost certain I am right.

It basically shift what you lost from VP to the signets passive effect. If you depended from VP, the loss are compensated throught the passive of the signets and to have it in shroud you need the goddarn trait.

The trait is bad in pvp. To make the trait work you have to take bad utilities which makes the trait bad. GW2 is so power creeped that for a spec to work everything must be good. Traits, skills, weapons. Otherwise there is no point. Even if this trait is good (its not btw), but even if it were there is a huge opportunity cost to equipping terrible signets.

Not to mention its a huge risk doubling the effect of plague signet.

You have signet of locust on yoru bar and a thief has shadowstep. Who is better off? You have to take the good utilites.

Svarty.8019:

Serenity.6135:

Its not about camping, its about proper rotations. The nerf on vital persistence ruined the synergy with a lot of traits therefore delivering a big hit on a lot of builds. VP is also necessary to keep up with the current meta.

The Speed of Shadows nerf-to-end-all-nerfs was delivered quietly at the end of the Necro section.

This is what it used to do:

Increases movement speed while in shroud. Reduces recharge on shroud.

Miscellaneous effect.png Movement speed increase: 25%
Count Recharge.png Recharge Reduced: 30%

WHAT A MESS! Where’s the petition? Fire the balance team!

This nerf was worse than the VP nerf imho. Or rather, the nerf to SoS WITH the nerf to VP is just ridiculus. Not only do we have less shroud time, we lose the ability to access it more often.

The synergy with SoS and the other skills is what really hurts my playstyle.

It hurts anyone who saw the value in speed of shadows. You are not alone, my fellow victim.