Guild Wars 2

The Demonologist
The Demonologist has researched into the deepest and disturbing sectors of the mist and have mastered that ability to bring forth twisted demonic horrors from the beyond. They use ethereal fires to burn their enemies very being while providing rapid regeneration to their minions and allies, causing them to be truly unpredictable adversaries. A mid-range condition dealer/support that wields the torch in battle. If you feel a trait or skill is to strong then suggest a reasonable recharge time. Please rate and improve!

Class Mechanic
Demon Shroud-Character turns into an ethereal demon and skills that generated spectral energy now generates demonic energy. Energy generated from direct damage, condition damage, or condition application on character. While in this form demonic energy does not run out automatically but instead health is being burned down (otherwise this form has a 20 second duration). Counter this with regen or stealth. While in stealth health does not burn down. Looks something like this: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:%22Margonite_Paragon%22_concept_art.jpg
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:%22Margonite%22_concept_art_2.jpg

All undead minion’s models graphically changed to demon minions which are the same functionally except they stealth and stop attacking when the demonologist stealth’s (resume attacking when demonologist unsheathes).

Demon shroud skills
Ethereal claw- Range 300 then 900, claw twice cleaving up to 3 enemies
Demon lunge- Leap to a location. When you land, deal damage and inflict burning on all foes in the area.
Dimensional shift – Vanish in stealth, gaining regeneration and curing conditions.
Burn out – stand still charging for a few seconds then erupt dealing massive burning damage to all foes in area
Wail of dementia – screech at foes in cone in from of character damaging and dazing them.

Weapon (torch)
• Dhuumcall-instant explosion around character for damage and blast finish, a pause for 3 seconds and another blast finish and even more damage
• Demon dance- Perform whirl finisher before Smash your torch to the grown causing burning damage around the character

Utility (Glamours)- ethereal and smoke fields, grant regeneration every second for duration of the field
• Void reconciliation (Heal Skill)- heal for 3000 then place glamour on floor in circle shape. All regeneration boon and healing effects while in glamour are multiplied by 4
• Mist field – Place glamour on floor in rectangle shape, granting resistance to allies and floating enemies who enter
• Torment reclamation- Place glamour on floor in pentagon shape, granting stability to allies and taunting enemies
• Desolation domain- Place glamour on the floor in triangle shape, granting vigor and slowing enemies
• Stygian Veil (Elite Skill)- place glamour on the floor that grants all boons for allies and all conditions for enemies while in the field

Traits (Minor)
• Demonology- become a demonologist, equip torch, can now use glamour’s
• Ocular abomination- Reveal status causes burning damage every second to foes around the character
• Demonic mending- regeneration calculation is now based on condition damage.

Traits (Adept)
• Spawning pool- Using a glamour has a 33% chance of summoning a random demon. Glamour skills cost 20% less.
• Shrouded in mystery- When it with a crit attack below 50 health, stealth, gain a fire aura, and enter demon shroud
• Demonic entropy- Grant regeneration every time burning is applied

Traits (Master)
• Blazing speed – Entering shroud grants super speed and quickness
• Fire of the lost- Reduced recharge on torch skills. Gain condition damage and burning duration increased while wielding a torch.
• Abaddons shadow- Stealth lasts 1 second longer, evade while revealed, blind foes if fire stacks are greater than 3

Traits (Grandmaster)
• D.H.U.U.M- Ocular abomination trait also impacts all allies, all minion attacks cause burning
• Margonite rage- In shroud, as character health goes down direct and condition damage goes up
• Reward of the apostate- When healing yourself, nearby allies are also healed for half as much. Stealth effects that you apply reduce incoming attack damage by 40%.

Cancer² Incoming : current gw2 doesn’t need more condis.

Descriptions seems to fit necromancer’s spirit but it’s way too much focused on condis/burning/stealth/clones and… you’re basically turning necro into a mesmer.

Plus most of the skills description seems to be too much group/area focused which is not what necro’s lacking atm : wells are strong, so are shouts, i’d rather have my necro turned into a cantrip gameplay user.

Like the idea of this spec tho, always loved margonites.

sanctionneur.1589:

Cancer² Incoming : current gw2 doesn’t need more condis.

Descriptions seems to fit necromancer’s spirit but it’s way too much focused on condis/burning/stealth/clones and… you’re basically turning necro into a mesmer.

Plus most of the skills description seems to be too much group/area focused which is not what necro’s lacking atm : wells are strong, so are shouts, i’d rather have my necro turned into a cantrip gameplay user.

Like the idea of this spec tho, always loved margonites.

Elite specs are not about covering what a core profession doesn’t have they are about changing a profession so it plays in a new way. Necromancers currently have limited access to burn, no access to stealth, and are not a strong with group healing so this would definitely be a change of play. As for condis this spec is no more cancerous than constant chill from a reaper.

“Elite specs are not about covering what a core profession doesn’t have they are about changing a profession so it plays in a new way.”

I’m glad we agree on that, it’s supposed to bring the class a different gameplay xD

sanctionneur.1589:

“Elite specs are not about covering what a core profession doesn’t have they are about changing a profession so it plays in a new way.”

I’m glad we agree on that, it’s supposed to bring the class a different gameplay xD

Can Necromancers currently provide raid level healing, stealth, or aoe burning? Would that not be different gameplay? It seems like this will happen for every elite spec as everyone has a different image in their head of what different enough is. Dragon hunters have a long bow and traps, they play similar to rangers yet gaurdians didn’t play like that before so it was different gameplay to them.

sanctionneur.1589:

Cancer² Incoming : current gw2 doesn’t need more condis.

Descriptions seems to fit necromancer’s spirit but it’s way too much focused on condis/burning/stealth/clones and… you’re basically turning necro into a mesmer.

These are Apex powers as I’ve described elsewhere:
Stealth, Target changing/losing and [waterfields+blast finishers].

I like the OP’s ideas for bringing some of these powers to the necro.

King Kai.4516:

sanctionneur.1589:

Cancer² Incoming : current gw2 doesn’t need more condis.

Descriptions seems to fit necromancer’s spirit but it’s way too much focused on condis/burning/stealth/clones and… you’re basically turning necro into a mesmer.

Plus most of the skills description seems to be too much group/area focused which is not what necro’s lacking atm : wells are strong, so are shouts, i’d rather have my necro turned into a cantrip gameplay user.

Like the idea of this spec tho, always loved margonites.

Elite specs are not about covering what a core profession doesn’t have they are about changing a profession so it plays in a new way. Necromancers currently have limited access to burn, no access to stealth, and are not a strong with group healing so this would definitely be a change of play. As for condis this spec is no more cancerous than constant chill from a reaper.

While you are right on what you say, another condi spec on the necro lead to the same gameplay in the end.

What is the most bothering in your spec is :

Demonic mending- regeneration calculation is now based on condition damage.

and :

Void reconciliation (Heal Skill)- heal for 3000 then place glamour on floor in circle shape. All regeneration boon and healing effects while in glamour are multiplied by 4

With no healing power regen heal at 130/second (level 80), which is balanced actually since healing power can’t be brought out to high (in pvp you’ll be able to reach a value of 2125 HP which is at a really high cost for a regen at around 395/second but you’ll end up with terrible attack power).

With your trait we got regeneration depending on up to 2700 condition damage for a regen at 467/second a very effective attack power through conditions. In short it’s not balanced. Just add the healing glamour for almost 1900 health/second in the glamour.

Can Necromancers currently provide raid level healing, stealth, or aoe burning?

Raid level healing : Yes. It would be a huge pain to play but technically the necromancer have the ability to dish out enough heal though regeneration, well of blood, life from death/vampiric presence and transfusion.

Stealth : You’re right that the necromancer don’t have access to that, however i’m not sure that it would be enough to change the necromancer gameplay.

AoE burning : If the necromancer don’t have it, the reaper have aoe burning.

Note : What block the necromancer as a raid healer is that he do not provide any additionnal survivability tools or original and effective damaging tools in this role. Tempest can provide boons like protection/might/vigor all day long and druid can provide unique damage bonus/vigor as well. Your glamour have great effect but that’s nothing more than another kind of mark/well with effects that are not “necromancer” ’s like.

Dadnir.5038:

King Kai.4516:

sanctionneur.1589:

Cancer² Incoming : current gw2 doesn’t need more condis.

Descriptions seems to fit necromancer’s spirit but it’s way too much focused on condis/burning/stealth/clones and… you’re basically turning necro into a mesmer.

Plus most of the skills description seems to be too much group/area focused which is not what necro’s lacking atm : wells are strong, so are shouts, i’d rather have my necro turned into a cantrip gameplay user.

Like the idea of this spec tho, always loved margonites.

Elite specs are not about covering what a core profession doesn’t have they are about changing a profession so it plays in a new way. Necromancers currently have limited access to burn, no access to stealth, and are not a strong with group healing so this would definitely be a change of play. As for condis this spec is no more cancerous than constant chill from a reaper.

While you are right on what you say, another condi spec on the necro lead to the same gameplay in the end.

What is the most bothering in your spec is :

Demonic mending- regeneration calculation is now based on condition damage.

and :

Void reconciliation (Heal Skill)- heal for 3000 then place glamour on floor in circle shape. All regeneration boon and healing effects while in glamour are multiplied by 4

With no healing power regen heal at 130/second (level 80), which is balanced actually since healing power can’t be brought out to high (in pvp you’ll be able to reach a value of 2125 HP which is at a really high cost for a regen at around 395/second but you’ll end up with terrible attack power).

With your trait we got regeneration depending on up to 2700 condition damage for a regen at 467/second a very effective attack power through conditions. In short it’s not balanced. Just add the healing glamour for almost 1900 health/second in the glamour.

Adding another power based elite power spec would be similar to reaper. There are only two ways of dealing damage in this game: direct or conditions. There will be some similarities no matter the next elite spec, but necromancers don’t have much access to the burning condition so the above would be a change of play.

I didn’t put in range, duration, or cooldowns so saying something is imbalanced in that spec doesn’t mean much. I have seen higher heal numbers than 1900 health/second, but even if your numbers are right lets say the glamour heal has a duration of 4 seconds, range of 150, and a cooldown of 45. If that is to low then up the parameters. Nothing is inherently imbalanced in this game, the cooldowns and duration are what makes them balanced or not. My point in posting here is to get feedback on the numbers that would make it balanced.

Dadnir.5038:

Can Necromancers currently provide raid level healing, stealth, or aoe burning?

Raid level healing : Yes. It would be a huge pain to play but technically the necromancer have the ability to dish out enough heal though regeneration, well of blood, life from death/vampiric presence and transfusion.

Stealth : You’re right that the necromancer don’t have access to that, however i’m not sure that it would be enough to change the necromancer gameplay.

AoE burning : If the necromancer don’t have it, the reaper have aoe burning.

Note : What block the necromancer as a raid healer is that he do not provide any additionnal survivability tools or original and effective damaging tools in this role. Tempest can provide boons like protection/might/vigor all day long and druid can provide unique damage bonus/vigor as well. Your glamour have great effect but that’s nothing more than another kind of mark/well with effects that are not “necromancer” ’s like.

It isn’t just about dishing out heals, druids are good healers because they can deal with spike damage and heal at range. A demonologist would simply augment necromancer healing to compete or beat druids in some areas.

Reaper have aoe buring? when?

I addressed the “different enough gameplay” argument in the previous post. You are comparing this spec to something in your head that will always be “more different”. Adding stealth simply changes a class that doesn’t have stealth, just like long range changed guardian. Also, you claim that the spec isn’t different enough but then you say the glamours aren’t necromancer like…wouldn’t making them necromancer like not make them different enough? Do you not see the irony there?

I hear your critiques about damage mitigation so I am adding the following text in bold to a trait:
Reward of the apostate- When healing yourself, nearby allies are also healed for half as much. Stealth effects that you apply reduce incoming attack damage by 40%.

Add that to this trait(reveals last 3 seconds) and you have group damage mitigation necromancers currently can’t perform.:
Abaddons shadow- Stealth lasts 1 second longer, evade while revealed, blind foes if fire stacks are greater than 3

Adding another power based elite power spec would be similar to reaper.

Nope, reaper is an elite spec that add both power and condition tool to the necromancer. What reaper fondamentally change the optimal distance at which you will be doing damages. Necromancer is optimal at mid range while Reaper is optimal at melee range.

It isn’t just about dishing out heals, druids are good healers because they can deal with spike damage and heal at range.

Nope the very difference is about the additionnal support that a profession can provide. Druids are thought for their direct damage buff, grace of the land and frost spirit, which grant together 15% more damage to the party (and I don’t even count the fact that rangers provide their share of common boons). Necromancer’s tools don’t give even 1% more damage to a party and are terribly selfish when it come to comon boons.

Reaper have aoe buring? when?

Dhumfire + auto attack = aoe burning in reaper shroud

I hear your critiques about damage mitigation so I am adding the following text in bold to a trait:
Reward of the apostate- When healing yourself, nearby allies are also healed for half as much. Stealth effects that you apply reduce incoming attack damage by 40%.

Add that to this trait(reveals last 3 seconds) and you have group damage mitigation necromancers currently can’t perform.:
Abaddons shadow- Stealth lasts 1 second longer, evade while revealed, blind foes if fire stacks are greater than 3

I know you want to make it good but all in all it’s still to powerfull to enter in game and would obviously end up with one of these awfull ICD that ruin every interesting traits in game. Although, a balanced damage reduction (for anet) seem to be 33%.

The real issue for me is that you step out of the necromancer’s design line with stealth and what you bring is additionnal damage with basically no trade off.

We discussed over stealth in this thread a while ago :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Will-Necros-Ever-Get-a-Stealth-E-spec/first#post6238887

As for burn, I fear that it is a condition that no E-spec will focus on for the necromancer. The main issue of burn is that it’s a condition which is to bursty to add on a profession that can rely on long lasting conditions. Burn and necromancers have already a painfull history of nerfs and when Anet tried to introduce condition damage on chill which was a controled way to add a bursty condition on necromancer, we end up with another kind of “nerf”. Simply put the core design of the necromancer do not allow enough margin to introduce another bursty condition in an Espec. Adding more direct burn than we already have is bound to create a huge mess in PvP and being nerfed to the ground a few day later.

The way I see it, Anet just can’t give easy access to burn on a necromancer that is out of it’s shroud since there will always be the access to all the other source of bleed. If we gain access to burns, it will probably be very situationnal with long cool down.

Also, you claim that the spec isn’t different enough but then you say the glamours aren’t necromancer like…wouldn’t making them necromancer like not make them different enough? Do you not see the irony there?

Here you didn’t understood me. It’s not glamour that are not necromancer’s like, It’s that some of the boon and conditions you put on them aren’t. Also, I pointed out your glamours because instead of what you seemed to understand I think that what they do will have more impact than what you seem to focus on : heal/burn/stealth. The only disappointing thing is, like I said, that this kind of skill feel a lot like another mark/well/spectral wall and necromancer already have plenty of this kind of things.

I don’t know if that would be balanced or not (and that’s someone else job, not our), but the basic idea is very cool.

Oh, and even if just a concept in your mind, congratulation for all details provided for every trait & skill

Dadnir.5038:

Adding another power based elite power spec would be similar to reaper.

Nope, reaper is an elite spec that add both power and condition tool to the necromancer. What reaper fondamentally change the optimal distance at which you will be doing damages. Necromancer is optimal at mid range while Reaper is optimal at melee range.

What you just said doesn’t refute that adding another elite spec that focused on power would be similar to Reaper. Distance is irrelevant to the point I am making, Reaper hits hard with some chill condition interaction. Any future elite spec that hits hard will be similar to it if your stance is that general.

Dadnir.5038:

It isn’t just about dishing out heals, druids are good healers because they can deal with spike damage and heal at range.

Nope the very difference is about the additionnal support that a profession can provide. Druids are thought for their direct damage buff, grace of the land and frost spirit, which grant together 15% more damage to the party (and I don’t even count the fact that rangers provide their share of common boons). Necromancer’s tools don’t give even 1% more damage to a party and are terribly selfish when it come to comon boons.

I was talking about healing specifically, if you are making the case that necromancer is a flexible of a healer as druid then prove your case beyond just saying necromancer does a “bit of healing”.

Dadnir.5038:

Reaper have aoe buring? when?

Dhumfire + auto attack = aoe burning in reaper shroud

Ok the final attack on the auto attack chain does aoe, but you are missing the overall point. Necromancer has access to burning like Guardian has access to slow, in a very limited fashion. An elite spec focused on burning would introduce a different style of gameplay.

Dadnir.5038:

I hear your critiques about damage mitigation so I am adding the following text in bold to a trait:
Reward of the apostate- When healing yourself, nearby allies are also healed for half as much. Stealth effects that you apply reduce incoming attack damage by 40%.

Add that to this trait(reveals last 3 seconds) and you have group damage mitigation necromancers currently can’t perform.:
Abaddons shadow- Stealth lasts 1 second longer, evade while revealed, blind foes if fire stacks are greater than 3

I know you want to make it good but all in all it’s still to powerfull to enter in game and would obviously end up with one of these awfull ICD that ruin every interesting traits in game. Although, a balanced damage reduction (for anet) seem to be 33%.

The real issue for me is that you step out of the necromancer’s design line with stealth and what you bring is additionnal damage with basically no trade off.

We discussed over stealth in this thread a while ago :

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Will-Necros-Ever-Get-a-Stealth-E-spec/first#post6238887

As for burn, I fear that it is a condition that no E-spec will focus on for the necromancer. The main issue of burn is that it’s a condition which is to bursty to add on a profession that can rely on long lasting conditions. Burn and necromancers have already a painfull history of nerfs and when Anet tried to introduce condition damage on chill which was a controled way to add a bursty condition on necromancer, we end up with another kind of “nerf”. Simply put the core design of the necromancer do not allow enough margin to introduce another bursty condition in an Espec. Adding more direct burn than we already have is bound to create a huge mess in PvP and being nerfed to the ground a few day later.

The way I see it, Anet just can’t give easy access to burn on a necromancer that is out of it’s shroud since there will always be the access to all the other source of bleed. If we gain access to burns, it will probably be very situationnal with long cool down.

Also, you claim that the spec isn’t different enough but then you say the glamours aren’t necromancer like…wouldn’t making them necromancer like not make them different enough? Do you not see the irony there?

Here you didn’t understood me. It’s not glamour that are not necromancer’s like, It’s that some of the boon and conditions you put on them aren’t. Also, I pointed out your glamours because instead of what you seemed to understand I think that what they do will have more impact than what you seem to focus on : heal/burn/stealth. The only disappointing thing is, like I said, that this kind of skill feel a lot like another mark/well/spectral wall and necromancer already have plenty of this kind of things.

In the above the specific tradeoff is demonologists health is being burned down so they can easily end up killing themselves so it is high risk high reward.

Renewed Focus literally makes a guardian invulnerable, what balances it is that is has a low duration and high cooldown. If invulnerability can be balanced through changing parameters something like spiky damage or condition damage can be aswell. I disagree with your impossible to balance stance, the developers are already moved around traits to accommodate what they want from elite specs(see change of theif acrobatic line before daredevil was introduced as well as changes to elementalists auromancer traits before tempest). If Dhuumfire is to much burn then they will do what they have done in the past and simply change it.

Tell me, if your stance is “they are similar if they have an effect on the ground” then are dragon hunter traps the same as symbols and consecrations? Chronomancers currently have wells and glamours just like the proposed demonologist would have, are chronomancer wells and glamours to similar?

BaLzA.8902:

I don’t know if that would be balanced or not (and that’s someone else job, not our), but the basic idea is very cool.

Oh, and even if just a concept in your mind, congratulation for all details provided for every trait & skill

Thanks for the feedback!

What you just said doesn’t refute that adding another elite spec that focused on power would be similar to Reaper.

What I said is that Reaper is a slow melee range spec (which is a gameplay in itself) and that reaper is in no way a “power” spec since there is more traits in reaper that improve the necromancer as a condi builds than traits that improve power builds.

A spec that focus on power would probably be very different from the reaper spec. On the other hand, I will agree with you that adding another slow melee range spec would be similar to reaper.

In all honesty, in matter of gameplay, the fighting range is what make the difference between the necromancer and the reaper. If when you see a Reaper you expect him to play “power”, Im sorry but you’ll probably be disappointed. On the other hand if you expect him to be a bother as soon as he is in melee range, then you’ve understand what a reaper is.

I was talking about healing specifically, if you are making the case that necromancer is a flexible of a healer as druid then prove your case beyond just saying necromancer does a “bit of healing”.

I said that the necromancer had enough tools as a healer and that it wouldn’t be difficult with those tools to already heal. Now even if it’s hard to understand, what will alway keep the necromancer out of this kind of role in any raid group is the fact that a necromancer have nothing beside heal. There is no value in a healbot that only know how to heal. The healmancer is a healbot with nothing more than heal. Improving healing value (even situationnally) would lead absolutely nowhere except perhaps to imbalance in PvP (where people are pretty quick to complain about “bunker” spec with to much heal).

Ok the final attack on the auto attack chain does aoe, but you are missing the overall point. Necromancer has access to burning like Guardian has access to slow, in a very limited fashion. An elite spec focused on burning would introduce a different style of gameplay.

All hits of the chain at least cleave. And cleave is already a form of aoe. Well you comment afterward on what I said about burning on necromancer, but again there is no way that we can realistically expect a necromancer spec with easy access to burn, it wouldn’t be game changing, it would only bring nerf because condimancer are already threatening with the amount of condition they have and burn is a condition that has already be deemed as bad for general balance on the necromancer.

Renewed Focus literally makes a guardian invulnerable, what balances it is that is has a low duration and high cooldown. If invulnerability can be balanced through changing parameters something like spiky damage or condition damage can be aswell.

Are you really comparing situational defensive tools to damage?

If you want condition damage burst that are balanced like renewed focus, the core necromancer already have that and it’s called terror (which is a trait that inflict damage on fear). When anet tried to add more of those kind of burst damage, by introducing deathly chill it ended up being changed. Condition burst is already fulfilled by Terror and leave little to no room for another kind of condi burst.

As for power burst damage the necromancer also have access to this kind of thing. By using combination of skills and disregarding any kind of self defense there is way to be incredibly bursty as a necromancer.

You could say that what prevent the necromancer to have these kind of tools in an espec is that it’s something that already exist within the core spec. Any E-Spec must be awre that the necromancer have terror for condi burst and that a necromancer can stack wells in power builds.

And sorry but there is no way that anyone could agree to more nerf on the core necro for the sake of an E-Spec.

Tell me, if your stance is “they are similar if they have an effect on the ground” then are dragon hunter traps the same as symbols and consecrations? Chronomancers currently have wells and glamours just like the proposed demonologist would have, are chronomancer wells and glamours to similar?

My stance is : “Necromancer have already enough of ground targeted aoe skills as it is and your glamours are really similar to Spectral wall. This kind of skill don’t introduce any new flavor to the necromancer.”

Guardian : I won’t say that guardian needed traps. In fact, if they fit the DH thematic, they caused more harm to the guardian than anything. And yes they are really similar to symbol but are world appart from consecration.

Mesmer : Wells on mesmer were needed. They introduced something else that was needed by the mesmer : area denial skills and an ability to prepare damage source.

Necromancer : Although the necromancer need badly a way to realiably dish out some boons, the issue of glamour skills is that they work exactly like Mark/well/spectral wall work, they are ground targeted skills. My issue with glamour is that they won’t introduce any new gameplay, just the same old necromancer gameplay. In fact your whole spec promote a general gameplay that look like a reaper using wells, except that it would slightly focus on boon support while this reaper would focus on damage and debuff (which is what anet and a few people think as “necromancer’s support”).

Dadnir.5038:

What you just said doesn’t refute that adding another elite spec that focused on power would be similar to Reaper.

What I said is that Reaper is a slow melee range spec (which is a gameplay in itself) and that reaper is in no way a “power” spec since there is more traits in reaper that improve the necromancer as a condi builds than traits that improve power builds.

A spec that focus on power would probably be very different from the reaper spec. On the other hand, I will agree with you that adding another slow melee range spec would be similar to reaper.

In all honesty, in matter of gameplay, the fighting range is what make the difference between the necromancer and the reaper. If when you see a Reaper you expect him to play “power”, Im sorry but you’ll probably be disappointed. On the other hand if you expect him to be a bother as soon as he is in melee range, then you’ve understand what a reaper is.

I disagree with you on reaper but lets make this simple. According to you any future elite spec that is power OR condition based at melee OR long range will not be different enough from base necromancer or reaper since they both already cover those play styles? I am still trying to get your problem here. Is condi melee reaper, condi melee berserker, and condi melee daredevil all the same playstyle? If your answer is yes then I simply disagree with you and I guess we end it there, if your answer is no then you acknowledge different styles of game play even through they are in the same “genre” of dps. In the above spec the focus on healing will keep minions alive longer and the focus on stealth allows the necromancer to disengage like a thief, that is different gameplay.

Dadnir.5038:

I was talking about healing specifically, if you are making the case that necromancer is a flexible of a healer as druid then prove your case beyond just saying necromancer does a “bit of healing”.

I said that the necromancer had enough tools as a healer and that it wouldn’t be difficult with those tools to already heal. Now even if it’s hard to understand, what will alway keep the necromancer out of this kind of role in any raid group is the fact that a necromancer have nothing beside heal. There is no value in a healbot that only know how to heal. The healmancer is a healbot with nothing more than heal. Improving healing value (even situationnally) would lead absolutely nowhere except perhaps to imbalance in PvP (where people are pretty quick to complain about “bunker” spec with to much heal).

Give me numbers and evidence on necro healing and healing range compared to druid healing otherwise this is just talk.

Dadnir.5038:

Ok the final attack on the auto attack chain does aoe, but you are missing the overall point. Necromancer has access to burning like Guardian has access to slow, in a very limited fashion. An elite spec focused on burning would introduce a different style of gameplay.

All hits of the chain at least cleave. And cleave is already a form of aoe. Well you comment afterward on what I said about burning on necromancer, but again there is no way that we can realistically expect a necromancer spec with easy access to burn, it wouldn’t be game changing, it would only bring nerf because condimancer are already threatening with the amount of condition they have and burn is a condition that has already be deemed as bad for general balance on the necromancer.

Deemed bad for general balance by who? you? some people on this forum? Unless you are inside the heads of the balance team at arena net I think you are over playing your hand here. I already pointed out that arenanet has already changed core specs to make way for elite specs(acrobatic traits changed before daredevil and auromancer traits changed before tempest), you seem to be ignoring that because it contradicts your point.

Dadnir.5038:

Renewed Focus literally makes a guardian invulnerable, what balances it is that is has a low duration and high cooldown. If invulnerability can be balanced through changing parameters something like spiky damage or condition damage can be aswell.

Are you really comparing situational defensive tools to damage?

At this point I think you are purposely being disingenuous. My point was invulnerability in any game is VERY hard to balance yet they did it, DPS changes are relatively easier to do. Saying the design space for necromancer is locked as it is now is ignoring arenanets history of changing core specs in advance of elite spec or balance.

Dadnir.5038:

Tell me, if your stance is “they are similar if they have an effect on the ground” then are dragon hunter traps the same as symbols and consecrations? Chronomancers currently have wells and glamours just like the proposed demonologist would have, are chronomancer wells and glamours to similar?

My stance is : “Necromancer have already enough of ground targeted aoe skills as it is and your glamours are really similar to Spectral wall. This kind of skill don’t introduce any new flavor to the necromancer.”

Guardian : I won’t say that guardian needed traps. In fact, if they fit the DH thematic, they caused more harm to the guardian than anything. And yes they are really similar to symbol but are world appart from consecration.

Mesmer : Wells on mesmer were needed. They introduced something else that was needed by the mesmer : area denial skills and an ability to prepare damage source.

Necromancer : Although the necromancer need badly a way to realiably dish out some boons, the issue of glamour skills is that they work exactly like Mark/well/spectral wall work, they are ground targeted skills. My issue with glamour is that they won’t introduce any new gameplay, just the same old necromancer gameplay. In fact your whole spec promote a general gameplay that look like a reaper using wells, except that it would slightly focus on boon support while this reaper would focus on damage and debuff (which is what anet and a few people think as “necromancer’s support”).

Ok, then just consider my implementation of glamours like you do dragon hunter traps: something that you personally disagree with but the developers and other players are ok with.

If we get another elite spec, I expect something like WoW’s warlocks with demon portals for mobility, demon form, hellfire aoe & burns, with options to spec into demon bolts for single target ranged damage as opposed to pbaoe based.

The OP isn’t too far off to be honest lol.

I disagree with you on reaper but lets make this simple. According to you any future elite spec that is power OR condition based at melee OR long range will not be different enough from base necromancer or reaper since they both already cover those play styles?

What I’m saying is that reaper cover the idea of a slow melee spec that keep it’s foe at melee range via chill. Condition or power have noting to do in the overall gameplay, condition and power are just a mean to damage your foe.

A new gameplay for the necromancer could be :
- a gameplay with mobility tools that allow you to be better at kitting
- a gameplay that rely on how good your are at controling a minion
- a gameplay that allow you to be deadly at range
- a gameplay that use the necromancer natural resilience to actually make people think twice before they hit him.

And like I said your spec introduce no new gameplay. This is the same as a reaper using wells.

Give me numbers and evidence on necro healing and healing range compared to druid healing otherwise this is just talk.

It’s not that hard to find some video on youtube with necromancer healing. But if you wanna know, the necromancer heal at range with mark of blood and well of blood while he support at mele range with transfusion, vampiric presence or life from death.

I already pointed out that arenanet has already changed core specs to make way for elite specs(acrobatic traits changed before daredevil and auromancer traits changed before tempest), you seem to be ignoring that because it contradicts your point.

The spec system was introduce just before the new elite spec. It’s bound to stay as it is now.