Guild Wars 2

Anyone else notice that it only spreads to 4 targets now?

I’m playing with it in the mists, at first I thought it was limited to 5, but as I look closer it seems that your target counts as one of the 5, but it’s not like the stacks or durations on your main target are increased or anything...

so.. it only affects 4 targets other than your main target and requires line of sight....

WORTHLESS!!!

That’s the way it has always worked. The line of sight was expected nerf since it is such a powerful weapon especially in zergs where you can hit a 5 man immobilize and damage stacks over an entire group every 12 seconds.

I am not sure where you thought it spread to more than 4 targets. It’s always beekittentarget max since the patch that limited it to that.

I can’t imagine that it only ever worked on 4 targets…

Ezeriel.9574:

I can’t imagine that it only ever worked on 4 targets…

Yeah…it’s only ever been 4 targets plus the “source” of the Epidemic.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been playing a Necromancer?

Faction.4013:

Ezeriel.9574:

I can’t imagine that it only ever worked on 4 targets…

Yeah…it’s only ever been 4 targets plus the “source” of the Epidemic.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been playing a Necromancer?

Yes and no, they limited aoe to 5 targets quite a long time ago, though that may have just been a tooltip fix.

Bas.7406:

Faction.4013:

Ezeriel.9574:

I can’t imagine that it only ever worked on 4 targets…

Yeah…it’s only ever been 4 targets plus the “source” of the Epidemic.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been playing a Necromancer?

Yes and no, they limited aoe to 5 targets quite a long time ago, though that may have just been a tooltip fix.

Yeah, I cried a little inside when that fix went through…

Also, the LoS thing I can totally deal with. Hell, half the time the kitten thing fires where I have the mouse looking, not at the target. Especially if I’m running away or rolling. At least this will keep me from wasting it on a tree or a rock.

good lord… all this time I had no idea I was so worthless in WvW

I apologize to my server, and will never take my necro in there again.

As it was most days the only thing i really felt I did of value was spread conditions to the arrow cart guys hiding out of range on the wall… now that’s over too

Yep, if u read epidemic description precisely u will see:
Apply vulnerability on yourself. Spread conditions on a target foe to all nearby foes.
See? its stated that 4 other persons get conditions!
wait…what?
i just had to =P

Ezeriel.9574:

good lord… all this time I had no idea I was so worthless in WvW

I apologize to my server, and will never take my necro in there again.

As it was most days the only thing i really felt I did of value was spread conditions to the arrow cart guys hiding out of range on the wall… now that’s over too

No that will still happen as long as your main target isn’t hidden behind the wall. so if you target someone and it hits the arrow cart guy it still works.

I tested on golems in the mists. I BiP then epidemic and 6 golems are afflicted. So the epidemic did spread to 5 others in addition to the target.

Bas.7406:

Ezeriel.9574:

good lord… all this time I had no idea I was so worthless in WvW

I apologize to my server, and will never take my necro in there again.

As it was most days the only thing i really felt I did of value was spread conditions to the arrow cart guys hiding out of range on the wall… now that’s over too

No that will still happen as long as your main target isn’t hidden behind the wall. so if you target someone and it hits the arrow cart guy it still works.

I usually apply the condition to a NPC near the arrow cart guy and epidemic the NPC.

Bas.7406:

I am not sure where you thought it spread to more than 4 targets. It’s always beekittentarget max since the patch that limited it to that.

well, because AoE-spells are usually limited to 5 targets and epidemic is an AoE-spell, so it should affect 5 enemies and not 4(plus myself)? ( i thought i would spread to 5 other targets too)

@krippler: were these tests before or after the patch?

I still can’t believe this only hits 4-5 targets.

Maybe I’ve just been in situations where I’m only fighting small groups, or imagined that I only had a few people that were in range…

…but when I think back to all the times I got killed trying to land epidemic on a raid….

What an absolutely horrid skill.

You know its not that i dont understand the change but could they atleast have the curtesy of making its cast time like 50% faster?

Epidemic certainly hit 5 targets before the patch… I didn’t notice after if it was different, and I am not online now. Not sure why people think it was 4… it was always 5 or uncapped historically. The target you are spreading from doesn’t count as one of the 5, because no conditions are applied to it.

Rennoko.5731:

Epidemic certainly hit 5 targets before the patch… I didn’t notice after if it was different, and I am not online now. Not sure why people think it was 4… it was always 5 or uncapped historically. The target you are spreading from doesn’t count as one of the 5, because no conditions are applied to it.

The 4 was my fault, I thought it counted the person, but I was corrected earlier by it.

Epidemic is stupidly powerful, even with the bug fix. And that is what it is, a bug fix, not a nerf. If you think epidemic is bad, then you are either new to necromancer or just never used it. It is a fantastic ability

The OP needs to L2P.

I need to L2P? you need to learn that just because something looks good, doesn’t mean that it is.

Sure epidemic looks cool on boss fights when you light up adds that die in seconds with 20 stacks of bleeds and what not, but is that really helping the raid all that much?

90% of the time, they would just burn down any adds without even noticing. So the fact that you played a little bit of kill stealing isn’t really all that impressive unless you are the one watching the bleed ticks fly.

If this patch has taught us anything it’s that WvW raiding parties are HUGE. Landing 4-8 bleeds on 5 guys is meaningless if you have to get close to do it, and trust me people run in and out all day long, if you want to use epidemic on the guy that just stepped on your mark of blood, you are gonna have to chase him as he runs back to his raid.

It’s not worth it.

Sure culling made it look good when you could only really see your raid and the first 5-10 of theirs, but that’s all changed now, and it’s clear to see just how painfully mediocre epidemic really is.

Seriously though, anyone trying to debate that Epidemic of all things isn’t great is just hard to take seriously.

Ezeriel.9574:

I need to L2P? you need to learn that just because something looks good, doesn’t mean that it is.

Sure epidemic looks cool on boss fights when you light up adds that die in seconds with 20 stacks of bleeds and what not, but is that really helping the raid all that much?

90% of the time, they would just burn down any adds without even noticing. So the fact that you played a little bit of kill stealing isn’t really all that impressive unless you are the one watching the bleed ticks fly.

If this patch has taught us anything it’s that WvW raiding parties are HUGE. Landing 4-8 bleeds on 5 guys is meaningless if you have to get close to do it, and trust me people run in and out all day long, if you want to use epidemic on the guy that just stepped on your mark of blood, you are gonna have to chase him as he runs back to his raid.

It’s not worth it.

Sure culling made it look good when you could only really see your raid and the first 5-10 of theirs, but that’s all changed now, and it’s clear to see just how painfully mediocre epidemic really is.

Your mistake is thinking that bleed is the key/only condition that should be spread. Admittedly I have not been using epidemic on my bar the past 2-3weeks, but that is due to my group makeup and small-man operations in WvW not requiring it. If I were ikittenerg, my well of darkness or spectral wall might be swapped for it.

I did some more testing on this, and I want to walk everyone through the history of Epidemic, just so everyone can understand how far it has come.

At Release: Epidemic would spread all conditions on a target to an infinite number of targets in the radius, from an infinite range. Did not require facing, LOS, and could not be avoided.

First Patch change: Epidemic will only spread to 5 targets in the radius. Still had infinite range, no LOS requirement, no facing requirement and could not be blocked/avoided.

Next Patch change: Epidemic had its range reduced to 1200. Still had no LOS requirement, no facing requirement, and could not be blocked or avoided.

Last patch change: Epidemic now has LOS requirements, and can be blocked/dodged/avoided/blinded/invuln. Still requires no facing.

From then to now, the only advantage the skill kept is that you can cast it while running in a different direction from the target.

I won’t say that any of the changes that took place could be called something other than bug fixes, but anyone saying this skill is “overpowered” now, need to revisit what really overpowered was – at the top of this post.

I have found after using it more extensively, that the dodge/blind/block is very painful to deal with now. Before, the cast time was hard to time right because of targest going down, well now warriors/guardians/mesmers/engineers are going invulnerable near 25%, and it no longer connects. No graphic, no spread. I am not opposed to blind preventing the skill from hitting, but immunity shouldn’t matter for this skill, seeing as how it doesn’t actually DO any damage/effects to the target.

I am seriously considering wells for WvW at this point as a go-to skill setup.

Rennoko.5731:

I have found after using it more extensively, that the dodge/blind/block is very painful to deal with now. Before, the cast time was hard to time right because of targest going down, well now warriors/guardians/mesmers/engineers are going invulnerable near 25%, and it no longer connects. No graphic, no spread. I am not opposed to blind preventing the skill from hitting, but immunity shouldn’t matter for this skill, seeing as how it doesn’t actually DO any damage/effects to the target.

I am seriously considering wells for WvW at this point as a go-to skill setup.

After playing WvW for a couple of days, I’d say that post patch my epidemic is successful about 1/3-1/2 of the time in open field combat and wall defense… I guess it’s reliable if I’m targeting a downed player. In wall siege, it is almost never successful unless I’m targeting an NPC.

Epidemic was reliable and powerful, but not OP, pre-patch. I’m not sure why Anet made this change. Did they even test it, and if so how could they let it go live in its current state? Is there even a point to playing condition damage heavy build / gear setups in WvW without it?

I am of the mind-set now that you are better off with focused rituals and wells. They are guaranteed to hit regardless of block/blind, they are AOE, they hit hard. The only reason I had epidemic is because of the synergy with high condition builds.

I personally had already started to transition to rampagers/wells for PVE, so it won’t be a big change for me. I would be willing to bet this change to epi is permanent, and likely to see further reductions in the future.

Previously I could target a class without a full condition clear and be pretty likely to get a good epi off…. now it is completely luck based in WVW baring someone randomly dodging or going invulnerable… because we all know that no one tries to use invulnerability skills when they are being focused with conditions….

Filing it away with corruption boon in the category or…. sometimes works… sometimes doesn’t… not worth the utility slot. (for WvW). I would have rather they hit the cooldown, than the functionality of the skill…. it was too hard a swipe in my opinion.

Epidemic is still an extremely powerful skill, but has been rendered so situation that I’m not sure it merits a place on my skill bar. In the right circumstances it can completely turn a fight around. In its ideal use scenario it can turn a 2v4 fight in your favour. Imagine for instance that you and another heavy condition user such as a mesmer or engineer are both focussing the same target and you pop Epidemic when the target has 15 bleeds, 10 confusion, poison and an immobilise on them. At this point everyone who is hit by the epidemic is dead unless they have a massive condition clear available. That’s pretty good for a 12" recharge skill!

Of course in a large group fight it’s gonna be far less powerful, but that goes the same for every aoe since the 5-target skill. Skills that target an area, by contrast (eg. guardian bubbles, swirling winds, feedback, temporal curtain, spectral wall) are much more powerful because they can affect far more than 5 targets in total. So dropping Epidemic for Wells isn’t gonna make a massive difference for you if you’re fighting in large zergs, as they will also only affect 5 targets.

The problem with Epidemic, as I see it, isn’t the target limit, or the LOS requirement, or that it can be blocked: it’s it’s cast time! I would much rather it had a 0.25" cast time and its recharge were upped to 30" than the way it is now, for the following reasons:

1. with a short cast time you can also spread fear – now you can only do it if you’ve gone for maximum fear duration and even then you’ll only get part of it.
2. in large group situations, people who are getting focussed with lots of conditions are going down too fast for a 1" cast time skill to hit them. Doubly annoying since conditions are automatically cleared when you are downed – cannot even count the number of times I popped epidemic and it spread nothing because the guy keeled over into downed state a fraction of a second before it landed
3. due to the short durations of most of most scepter conditions (but really of all the most powerful conditions in the game), spreading them with a 1" cast time is impossible if you’re the only condition source – if you want to spread an immobilise or burn you’re relying on someone else applying it while you’re casting.
4. Long cast time makes it too easy to be interrupted while using it.

In short, I see utility skills as the skills you’re supposed to pop when you need to turn a fight around. I love how spammable Epidemic is, but I think it would fulfil its role better if its recharge was nerfed and its cast time was reduced to 0.25" (or even instant), and it became unblockable again.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Rennoko, but basically this sums up my view as well:

Filing it away with corruption boon in the category or…. sometimes works… sometimes doesn’t… not worth the utility slot. (for WvW). I would have rather they hit the cooldown, than the functionality of the skill…. it was too hard a swipe in my opinion.

manveruppd.7601:

Skills that target an area, by contrast (eg. guardian bubbles, swirling winds, feedback, temporal curtain, spectral wall) are much more powerful because they can affect far more than 5 targets in total.

Does Spectral Wall apply vulnerability more than 5 times? I know it applies Protection only 5 times and then stops giving it to any new person who passes through it.

Haley.2390:

Does Spectral Wall apply vulnerability more than 5 times? I know it applies Protection only 5 times and then stops giving it to any new person who passes through it.

That is incorrect. It applies protection and vulnerability to everyone who crosses through it there is no limit unless it was a stealth nerf in the last patch.

Bas.7406:

Haley.2390:

Does Spectral Wall apply vulnerability more than 5 times? I know it applies Protection only 5 times and then stops giving it to any new person who passes through it.

That is incorrect. It applies protection and vulnerability to everyone who crosses through it there is no limit unless it was a stealth nerf in the last patch.

Only time I’ve tested it was during the Karka Event. And I noticed only 5 people would get Protection and no one else passing it got it.

Edit: I tested it just now. You are correct.

Haley.2390:

Does Spectral Wall apply vulnerability more than 5 times? I know it applies Protection only 5 times and then stops giving it to any new person who passes through it.

I understand that the way these ground-effect skills work is that they can’t affect more than 5 targets AT THE SAME TIME. So if 6 friendlies walk through it together only 5 will get it. I’m pretty sure hostile and friendly target caps are separate, though I’ve been unable to test this. So yeah, in theory if you drop this in front of your zerg you could give Protection to most of them.

I’ve heard of some skills having internal overall target caps, but I don’t know if it’s true. I have a suspicion that the reason for this rumour is the mesmers’ Temporal Curtain (focus 4), which doesn’t extend your swiftness duration if you already have swiftness on you when passing through it. My guess is people passed through, saw their swiftness didn’t stack, and thought it had reached a target cap.

manveruppd.7601:

I understand that the way these ground-effect skills work is that they can’t affect more than 5 targets AT THE SAME TIME. So if 6 friendlies walk through it together only 5 will get it. I’m pretty sure hostile and friendly target caps are separate, though I’ve been unable to test this. So yeah, in theory if you drop this in front of your zerg you could give Protection to most of them.

This is probably the best definition of how the talent works. Though I have heard that there are Mesmer Glamour bubbles that can slam everyone through a specific trait that turns them from bubbles (limited to five) to walls (pass through skills) which means they can now affect an entire zerg.

Epidemic used to be a stable skill on my bar in wvw because it doesn’t require line of sight. It was great for tower defense and sometimes tower attack.

Now I would never carry it in wvw.

During tower defense, this skill will never hit your foe unless you jump onto the edge of the wall. And a second later you get pulled down to the zerg below and die.

During tower offense, this skill will never hit your foe because the enemy always goes back and forth in their tower. It will always get blocked by the wall.

During open field combat, the game is often too laggy for any sort of skillful play. So it is nearly impossible to find THAT target with tons of conditions in a 40+ enemy zerg.

So for the purpose of wvw, this skill is totally useless now. Sorry but you know I am right. This skill, for wvw, has indeed been nerfed all the way to the ground.

But a part of me am glad that Epidemic got nerfed this hard. It has been my long time believe that Epidemic is one of the major reasons that necro’s other skills don’t get buffed. Now with Epidemic “out of the way”, we can expect some necro skill buffs in the near future. ^^

[quote=1727387;Bas.7406:

This is probably the best definition of how the talent works. Though I have heard that there are Mesmer Glamour bubbles that can slam everyone through a specific trait that turns them from bubbles (limited to five) to walls (pass through skills) which means they can now affect an entire zerg.[/quote]

Oh haven’t heard of that, I’ll bust out my mesmer and investigate! Got to find a minimum of 5 allies to pass through them though :P

manveruppd.7601:

Oh haven’t heard of that, I’ll bust out my mesmer and investigate! Got to find a minimum of 5 allies to pass through them though :P[/quote]

It’s the confusion skill on passing through trait that turns Glamour skills into walls. Kylia is the one who figured it out.

Bas.7406:

It’s the confusion skill on passing through trait that turns Glamour skills into walls. Kylia is the one who figured it out.

I see, that actually makes perfect sense from the wording. So it can affect an unlimited amount of targets as long as not more than 5 pass through its boundary at once. Mind you, something like Null Field will still only affect 5 foes and 5 allies max within its area for the skill’s primary effect (ie removing boons and conditions). Anyway, this has nothing to do with Epidemic so I’ll shut up

How about we reduce that cast time on epidemic

Ezeriel.9574:

Anyone else notice that it only spreads to 4 targets now?

I’m playing with it in the mists, at first I thought it was limited to 5, but as I look closer it seems that your target counts as one of the 5, but it’s not like the stacks or durations on your main target are increased or anything…

so.. it only affects 4 targets other than your main target and requires line of sight….

so.. it only affects 4 targets other than your main target and requires line of sight….WORTHLESS!!!

It only effects an entire tourney team!? NO WAAAAAAY!!!!!!!

I don’t think it would be as bad in WvW if the Line of Sight with tower/keep walls wasn’t so wonky (the whole “if your feet and your target’s feet can’t see each other, you don’t have LoS” thing). Really that issue is bigger concern for WvW.

I’ll still run Epidemic, because the opportunities to use it are still high, but with the whole dodging/blocking/invulnerable thing now ruining it too, they need to cut the cast time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I don’t think it would be as bad in WvW if the Line of Sight with tower/keep walls wasn’t so wonky (the whole “if your feet and your target’s feet can’t see each other, you don’t have LoS” thing). Really that issue is bigger concern for WvW.

I’ll still run Epidemic, because the opportunities to use it are still high, but with the whole dodging/blocking/invulnerable thing now ruining it too, they need to cut the cast time.

Necro Cast times in general are the most frustrating for me. While at first I enjoyed the visual part of it, now it’s just frustrating since it simply allows other to interrupt me regularly.

Rennoko.5731:

I am of the mind-set now that you are better off with focused rituals and wells. They are guaranteed to hit regardless of block/blind, they are AOE, they hit hard. The only reason I had epidemic is because of the synergy with high condition builds.

I personally had already started to transition to rampagers/wells for PVE, so it won’t be a big change for me. I would be willing to bet this change to epi is permanent, and likely to see further reductions in the future.

Previously I could target a class without a full condition clear and be pretty likely to get a good epi off…. now it is completely luck based in WVW baring someone randomly dodging or going invulnerable… because we all know that no one tries to use invulnerability skills when they are being focused with conditions….

Filing it away with corruption boon in the category or…. sometimes works… sometimes doesn’t… not worth the utility slot. (for WvW). I would have rather they hit the cooldown, than the functionality of the skill…. it was too hard a swipe in my opinion.

Pretty much. I might slot it if I’m approaching a small 5v5 camp skirmish or something, or when I’m just clearing NPCs, but never for any other reason. Even before it was hit and miss. Now it’s just yet another victim of necromancer clunkiness. The LoS nerf was particularly devastating, as a lot of a condition necromancer’s strength lies in the fact that they can just turn 180 and apply conditions along their retreat path. It’s not like you’ve got any vigour/leaps/teleports/etc to help build gaps. It’s also not like epidemic is in the same level as, say, Dragon’s Tooth or Illusionary Berserker. It’s not gonna kill siege. You’re not gonna build 25 stacks of bleed before your target wises up and backs away.

Cripes, more than half the time my intended epidemic target would be downed in the middle of the cast, resulting in nothing happening. Spectral Grasp/Corrupt Boon/Epidemic were my three common utility staples when I’m not ikittenerg, and now not a single one of them can hit reliably. Even still I’ll be stuck slotting them, because it’s not like the other utilities are that much better in the given scenario.