Guild Wars 2

I know, i know the Reaper is in some situation a huge update for every Necro … But on the other hand we are maybe the only Elite who is gonna lose something -> Death Shroud.

Other elite just have to trade a Traitline and its already worth ( buffed F-skills, traits, weapons etc. ), you can play your new elite like your old Class, just with some Buffs.
- You can play your Daredevil just like your old Thief, with 3 dodges ( and even more ) …
- you can just play your Dragonhunter like your Guardian just with buffed F-Skills ( and even more )
- You can play your Chrono like a Mesmer, with an OP F5 Skills ( and you know … )

We can play Reaper, and lose for example our only worth period rangeddamage ( Shroud 1 ) … automaticly. It feels like we are the only Elite where something is completly replaced … its okay because i think this should be the thing ( old classes shouldnt just be worthless/replaced ) … But compared to all other elite it feels … not fair

sorry for bad english <2+1

A number of elites are trading their profession mechanic for new ones, which is where we are. It allows them to further focus the specialization, as well as give us something really cool to play with.

Which will make it odd because so many traits depend on the shroud. So any traitline that has all 3 major traits at some point using the shroud is pretty worthless because you are foregoing some of the advantages of traits. Since I just rolled my necro a few weeks ago I have not gotten used to the shroud yet and I have had a terrible time trying to pick traits that would play to that style.

Maybe they need to rework necro traits then?

Some elites just got more stuff for free ( Chrono → F5, Tempest this overload thing, Daredevil this endurance thing … ). Other mechanics got reworked, right … but its almost always better. Every F-ability of the dragonhunter is like the old guardianstuff … just better. Berserker the same … nobody used the adrenalineskills, so the new berserkerskills are nice to have anyway.

I can understand that we lose something for a new gamestyle, but i cant understand why other speccs dont have to ( so much as we do ). Why cant a Chrono lose the ability to create clones ( because now he can travel in time ). Or a Daredevil loses the ability to steal ( cause he isnt a thief anymore ). Just like we lose the ability to range ( cause we are a kittening pyramidhead! ).

We lose range, other professions lost things too. The things you’re suggesting they lose is like if we lost Death Shroud entirely, but we didn’t, we just traded one shroud for another.

Ours isn’t losing Shroud, it’s changing it. Reaper is also getting the highest damaging weapon of the set, someone can correct me if that’s wrong. Reaper is also in one of the best places among all of the specializations.

Menadena.7482:

Which will make it odd because so many traits depend on the shroud. So any traitline that has all 3 major traits at some point using the shroud is pretty worthless because you are foregoing some of the advantages of traits. Since I just rolled my necro a few weeks ago I have not gotten used to the shroud yet and I have had a terrible time trying to pick traits that would play to that style.

Maybe they need to rework necro traits then?

How? All traits that affect Death Shroud affect Reaper’s Shroud just as well, if not better. The only base Necro trait that loses anything is Unyielding Blast, because the piercing function doesn’t apply. Even then, it’s much higher application rate makes up for it.

Reaper is in exceptionally good shape right now. Once they finalize the animation cleanup for things like GS 5 we’ll be in even better shape. We arguably got the most expansive update to profession mechanics of any of the classes, and it’ll put us in a very good place when used.

P.S. Normal Guardian virtues are better than Dragonhunter virtues and normal Elementalist is way better than Tempest. We’re definitely not being neglected here.

Remasuri.2458:

Some elites just got more stuff for free ( Chrono -> F5, Tempest this overload thing, Daredevil this endurance thing … ). *Other mechanics got reworked, right … but its almost always better. *Every F-ability of the dragonhunter is like the old guardianstuff … just better. Berserker the same … nobody used the adrenalineskills, so the new berserkerskills are nice to have anyway.

I can understand that we lose something for a new gamestyle, but i cant understand why other speccs dont have to ( so much as we do ). Why cant a Chrono lose the ability to create clones ( because now he can travel in time ). Or a Daredevil loses the ability to steal ( cause he isnt a thief anymore ). Just like we lose the ability to range ( cause we are a kittening pyramidhead! ).

I am sorry but it isnt truth. Necro is in good spot with Elite specialization. We got improved our class speccial you cant say it is deleted. It is just in other spot. RS give us what we dont have mobile(RS2)/stability(RS3)/ even shouts get better after each bwe. Gs need some work(5) but still we see they listen community more then they were.

Imo right now we are on better spot then most classes:

-Thiefs which doesnt get survi wepon as they should + clunky dodges and animation problems.
-Warriors which with berserker most build looks like need to be hybrid.
-Mesmers dont say bad things beacouse it is o powerfull and they dont want more nerfs.

I dont agree with you with almost everything. You say we dont get better (old things) like other classes but we are as i show you. I dont know why you dont see it. How long are you playing necro?

Be glad we didn’t get the guardian treatment, they got an elite most guardians won’t take. Or the thief treatment, where their elite doesn’t change their position in WvW because it didn’t boost their weakness (lack of aoe’s and group utilities).

Reapers actually made this class play different, and moved us away from relying on dagger auto attack and death shroud auto for our largest dps. It also gave us a small bit of mobility, more access to stab, blind, vuln, chill, pull, stuns…overall more buttons to cycle through, more skills to utilize, and more combos to connect. I’m not sure how anybody could be upset about Reapers. Reapers offer a more engaging gameplay that’s more than just an immobile B-52 bomber that necros are currently.

The only time I felt like I was losing something with Reaper was this

Dragonhunter is a tradeof, instead of supportive aoe virtues they get more selfish (or at least self centered virtues) it’s fine, they may be a bit stronger but remember it costs a minor trait so that balances it out.

I’m more dissapointed in the other elites or at least their developpers. With reaper they had the guts and creativity to practically remove the old class mechanic and replace it with the new one. This forced the players to adapt to the specialisations and not vice versa wwhat you see in the other elites. This gave the class a new air from the start while other elite specs will slowly fall in line. People will understand the new tools and will create a (new) build/ playstyle with it. That being said the difference in playstyle will be a lot lower since they really can’t it give it much leeway in the changes to strengths and weaknesses.

A reaper gave practically all it’s inherent ranged damage capabilties for more melee damage and the tools necessairy to support this new melee playstyle. With a Daredevil they can’t give too much new strength and weaknesses since all other aspects of the class are still there.

While it is easy to bash on the dev’s it has to be said that the necromancer was probably one of the easiest classes to make this kind of change. The biggest reason for that is the decoupling of the shroud skills and the necromancer itself (sorry for the informatics term but it fits perefectly). That being said I had expected a bit more from the devs in terms of creativity to make it happen: Scrapper/Chronomancer is a huge dissapointment in that regard.

tl;dr
So don’t worry they get the “upgrade” but it is far lower then the “upgrades” we got. We did get some downgrades in return to balance it out.

lemone.5867:

We It is just in other spot.

this is exactly what i mean. We HAVE TO Play different, other elite CAN play different. We are the only profession who gonna lose something important ( 5 skills including range ) completly automatic and its replaced with something completly different. our playstyle will be replaced without exception. no other class have to sacrifice so much for a new elite.

Other elite dont have to. you can play your berserker like your warrior, with banner, greatsword maybe even phalanx. Maybe finaly some good F1 skills -> completly worth -> update. You can still play your mesmer, with your weapons, skills, maybe even PU + some good traits and a new F5-> update. And then there is the Reaper, trade 5 skills with 5 other skills and lose the ability of 10k range cris -> worth? maybe, maybe not.

i dont say that the reaper isnt good, thats a completly different topic. I just feel there are some designissures compared to other speccs. Other classes are a win/win situation, Reaper is a win/lose situation.

Remasuri.2458:

lemone.5867:

We It is just in other spot.

this is exactly what i mean. We HAVE TO Play different, other elite CAN play different. We are the only profession who gonna lose something important ( 5 skills including range ) completly automatic and its replaced with something completly different. our playstyle will be replaced without exception. no other class have to sacrifice so much for a new elite.

Other elite dont have to. you can play your berserker like your warrior, with banner, greatsword maybe even phalanx. Maybe finaly some good F1 skills -> completly worth -> update. You can still play your mesmer, with your weapons, skills, maybe even PU + some good traits and a new F5-> update. And then there is the Reaper, trade 5 skills with 5 other skills and lose the ability of 10k range cris -> worth? maybe, maybe not.

i dont say that the reaper isnt good, thats a completly different topic. I just feel there are some designissures compared to other speccs.

But the elite spec is SUPPOSED to change our playstyle. It is not a sacrifice, it is a trade.

Now if you feel this is not the case with the other elite specs, then you should instead complain to them because then the specs is not doing its job properly. If you look at the elementalist or guardian forum, many wonder what is the elite spec bringing new to them. The tempest brings party support… oh wait, isn’t that already what elementalists do? It was announced as “finally ele will be able to stay in the fight”… yes because D/D elementalist is a backline support!

Reaper is one of the best designed elite specs, it fulfills its job in an amazing way!

edit: you seem to say that because mesmer got a F5, warrior get a F2, then those are improvements. They are not! You do get the mesmer F5 at the cost of one trait line. Is it worth it? well it gives you new builds but it removes some others which depend on the 3 core specializations! No specs is an update, all are a change.

The problem isn’t that we lose something, it’s that other professions (other than Guardian) only gain things. Elite Specs were, according to the initial announcement, supposed to change the class mechanic. To give up something in order to get something else, and be a mechanical sidegrade. Unfortunately, that only holds true for Necromancers and Guardians. All other professions give up nothing and instead only gain, making their elite specs straight upgrades, at least as far as mechanics are concerned (numerical balance is a temporary issue and should not be considered). It feels weird to say, but as far as elite spec design goes, it’s all the professions that aren’t Necro and Guard that have design issues.

Remasuri.2458:

I know, i know the Reaper is in some situation a huge update for every Necro … But on the other hand we are maybe the only Elite who is gonna lose something -> Death Shroud.

Other elite just have to trade a Traitline and its already worth ( buffed F-skills, traits, weapons etc. ), you can play your new elite like your old Class, just with some Buffs.
- You can play your Daredevil just like your old Thief, with 3 dodges ( and even more ) …
- you can just play your Dragonhunter like your Guardian just with buffed F-Skills ( and even more )
- You can play your Chrono like a Mesmer, with an OP F5 Skills ( and you know … )

We can play Reaper, and lose for example our only worth period rangeddamage ( Shroud 1 ) … automaticly. It feels like we are the only Elite where something is completly replaced … its okay because i think this should be the thing ( old classes shouldnt just be worthless/replaced ) … But compared to all other elite it feels … not fair

sorry for bad english <2+1

First of all, Dragonhunter virtues are a downgrade from standard virtues. I hope Anet will address this, but I’m not holding my breath.

Honestly, I prefer reaper’s shroud to death shroud. Life blast may deal more damage, but it doesn’t cleave. Both the GS and reaper’s shroud gives necromancers the melee presence they were sorely lacking.

Remasuri.2458:

I can understand that we lose something for a new gamestyle, but i cant understand why other speccs dont have to ( so much as we do ). Why cant a Chrono lose the ability to create clones ( because now he can travel in time ). Or a Daredevil loses the ability to steal ( cause he isnt a thief anymore ). Just like we lose the ability to range ( cause we are a kittening pyramidhead! ).

I think you’re underestimating what other classes lose when they decide to pick up their elite spec.
It’s not just abilties; a lot of classes have very good synergy through their traits and they’ll lose that by picking up the elite.
For example a lot of elementalists would have to drop the Arcana traitline; which means they lose out on a ton of versatility and utility.

Also your comparison isn’t fair. The right comparision to:
“. Why cant a Chrono lose the ability to create clones ( because now he can travel in time ).”
would be for a necro to completely lose shroud in general.

But we don’t. We get a different kind of shroud. It’s no different than the dragonhunter getting other virtues.
Only instead, our reaper shroud opens up a cool new playstyle that is refreshing. Whereas the dragonhunter so far mostly gets shafted it seems.
On top of that, other classes who get something EXTRA without sacrificing something, tend to get much less than what necro’s get. For example the thief getting an extra dodge is nice. But reaper shroud giving several new abilities and possible combinations is much bigger.
The fact we get a gap closer; easier access to stability, is nothing to sneeze at.

Believe me. NEARLY EVERY OTHER CLASS is jealous of what necro’s are getting.
Several of people who are die-hard fans of their own class, either look at necro with envy or are likely to roll necros to try out reaper.

I think that Reaper is Powerufull.
Yes, I will be happy if they make us able to chose wich Shroud use adding a F2 to use Reaper Shroud instead completly change it, why sometimes you need range and sometimes you need melee (something like what is exactly happened to the warrior).

The thing that makes me more “sad” is that every single specializzation gives to the class a new mechanic, new conditons, new ways to be played.

Chronomancer obtained little compared to other specializzation in terms of new playstyle, but obtained a absurd way to obtain quickness and a totally new Condition only for him!!!! (Slow)
And that plus the shield and wells grant him a place in every www zerg.

The Necromancer obtained nothing new.
Not a new condition, not a new build (chillmancer was played times ago and deleted by the builds list why totally useless), not a new playstyle (the weapon and the shouts don’t allow us to fight into a group of enemies like Anet want why don’t gives us any defensive skill) and the new Reaper Shroud is good but it’s the only thing that change a little our playstyle, and not so much. Why in PvE it will not change so much our playstyle, in www is useless (the necromancer melee into a zerg without any defensive skills? Dead in lesser than 10 seconds) and in sPvP it will work only situationally, depending on the enemy you find, different from the actual one that work both in range and melee.

That’s the only thing that I don’t like about the Reaper: don’t give us any new role, any real new playstiyle and any reason why someone was happy to have us in team more than now (that is more or less 0 in PvE and 1/2 in sPvP, we’re welcome only in www, if we play the DS dps build)

But anyway the reaper is a really great specializzation.
Have the worst desighn ever for this game why focus on slow skills in a game of fast-combat pvp and on fight crowded by mobs without a single defensive skill.
But it’s really cool!

Well the trade of for losing range is hitting like a truck. If we had DS as well it would be difficult or just plain ineffective to kite us and that is our weakness, that’s what makes it balanced.

Can’t decide whether this is a massive troll or not. I mean the reaper spec has filled gaps that were gaping…what do you want? A mellee powerhouse that can also wreck from range, be serious. It allows any necro player to choose how they want to play, ranged, or up close. There’s always going to be a trade off.

@silv…the necro not being able to wvw Zerg? how about spectral armor, plus whatever other defensives your train throw up, and the huge aoe fest that comes from gs and rs now, there are plenty of options to make it tanky and more survivable, have you even put any decent hours into the beta to come to your conclusion??? Look at the stacking toughness traits or life regen in shroud options.

The only problem I have at the moment is the way our traits are scattered about makes it hard to make a perfect build, for example any serious shroud build needs both reaper and soul reaping trait lines, leaving only one more line to really focus our out of shroud gameplay, is nothing too bad, but I think one or two traits could be shuffled for qol.

Reapers in a nice spot, pretty much bang on expectations, I don’t understand the whining at all.

Man, you guys can’t be happy with anything? Reaper is a HUGE buff on necromancers and other professions are indeed trading up stuffs. Not all of them, but some are.
And tbh, chrono and reaper are the best specialization so far.

Because you are making a not smart complaint, i will assume youre a PVE roleplayer.

Yes, other proffesions get +1 extra small thing (only chrono gets a big extra thing- the CD reset)
Some, the dragonhunter are like us, they just trade their stuff for worse stuff.
We however,
trade our 10powerlv shroud for a 100powerlv better shroud.
Also, just the weapon is actually good in PVE and if you will even look cool while standing in LA and complaining.

On serious note,
The range is a limited weaponset problem. Axe is getting looked into along with other weapons, so wait for that.

Reaper traded ranged damage for AoE melee damage. Personally I find Reaper shroud was designed way better than our base shroud so it’s a really good trade.

Charblaze.6958:

Reaper traded ranged damage for AoE melee damage. Personally I find Reaper shroud was designed way better than our base shroud so it’s a really good trade.

Agree with you. Reaper shroud is just better designed than death shroud.
But can be easily kited around by a good player.

Is the OP suggesting that the tempest is better than the reaper…?
…
…
…
Really?

In all seriousness, you’re right OP. The reaper is, so far, the only elite spec that trades its class mechanic for something else. However, the new class is so well-designed and powerful compared to some other elite specs (such as the tempest – /cries) that this fact becomes an insignificant detail.

Bean Muncher.5197:

In all seriousness, you’re right OP. The reaper is, so far, the only elite spec that trades its class mechanic for something else. However, the new class is so well-designed and powerful compared to some other elite specs (such as the tempest – /cries) that this fact becomes an insignificant detail.

I don’t think so. Guardians got their class mechanic “replaced” too, even if you guys keep saying it isn’t that way. They don’t have their old class mechanic skills, but have new ones.

As an Ele main, let me tell you that the Tempest very much does not feel like an upgrade. The Warhorn has a hard time justifying itself over offhand Dagger or even Focus, the trait line is a grab bag of random effects that barely help us, and Overloads have their risk/reward ratio skewed hilariously towards risk. Oh, and the Ele shouts are meh.

The Reaper, on the other hand, looks great, and Robert Gee has been very receptive to community suggestions. The Ele dev has pretty much ignored our concerns about everything except for our Elite skill (the old version was total garbage, whereas the new one looks decent… compared to our other elites, which often suck depending on game mode).

Blaine Tog.8304:

As an Ele main, let me tell you that the Tempest very much does not feel like an upgrade. The Warhorn has a hard time justifying itself over offhand Dagger or even Focus, the trait line is a grab bag of random effects that barely help us, and Overloads have their risk/reward ratio skewed hilariously towards risk. Oh, and the Ele shouts are meh.

Even if you don’t think that it feels like an upgrade, actually it is. Elementalist gets the ability to overcharge their attunements, so they get more skills to choose from. More skills available is an upgrade, because you are getting more versatile. If you choose to not use them, ok, but don’t negate the fact that it is an upgrade.

So far Reaper, Berserker, Chronomancer and Herald (and maybe Scrapper and Druid) are the only Elite Spec’s where I would consider sacrificing a traitline to be honest. Tempest and Dragonhunter feel like such a downgrade from what the original class brought and the Daredevil feels weird to me.*

I feel Reaper is in a great spot now

*opinion all based on PvE

It has to do with a change in design that happened part way through development. Originally the elite specs were meant to replace something and lose something in order to gain something new. People didn’t like this and the devs changed direction pretty early on.

Unfortunately some specs were already close to completed by then. Reaper was the first spec finished so it adheres to this most closely in losing DS to gain RS. Dragonhunter was also one of the early ones so it had its virtues fundamentally changed.

The later specs follow the new design which is pure gain no loss. Daredevil, chronomancer, tempest, scrapper, herald, all have ENHANCED class mechanics with no tradeoff, they lose nothing.

There is also the spec that seem to have been built in a transition period. Berserker. It’s class mechanic changes only during berserk mode and then goes back to normal once the mode ends.

Not sure where druid will end up. It was revealed first, but seems to have been either reworked or stuck in limbo for a while now.

If reaper had been designed later I am almost certain we would have gotten an F2 and been able to choose which mode to go into.

Kodama.6453:

Blaine Tog.8304:

As an Ele main, let me tell you that the Tempest very much does not feel like an upgrade. The Warhorn has a hard time justifying itself over offhand Dagger or even Focus, the trait line is a grab bag of random effects that barely help us, and Overloads have their risk/reward ratio skewed hilariously towards risk. Oh, and the Ele shouts are meh.

Even if you don’t think that it feels like an upgrade, actually it is. Elementalist gets the ability to overcharge their attunements, so they get more skills to choose from. More skills available is an upgrade, because you are getting more versatile. If you choose to not use them, ok, but don’t negate the fact that it is an upgrade.

It isn’t an upgrade because Overloads aren’t free. We have to pay an opportunity cost to actually use them (5 seconds staying in the attunement, 4 seconds of of channeling while in close range of your target, and then 7 seconds longer lock-out if you switch to another attunement), and beyond that, we have to invest in a trait line that isn’t remotely competitive with the other options.

The Reaper trait line, on the other hand, has all sorts of goodies for us on top of the switch to Reaper’s Shroud, the Greatsword is a really competitive weapon choice (though IMO kinda duplicative with Reaper’s Shroud), and we have enough built-in durability that swapping out Wells or Spectral skills for Shouts is actually somewhat feasible.

I don’t normally like comparing two professions with each other but when it comes to Elite Specializations, the Necromancer is coming out solidly ahead of the Elementalist. Reaper is going to be very popular, a strong choice, whereas I would be surprised to see Tempests much outside of gimmick teams if they don’t see a major rework.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Kodama.6453:

Blaine Tog.8304:

As an Ele main, let me tell you that the Tempest very much does not feel like an upgrade. The Warhorn has a hard time justifying itself over offhand Dagger or even Focus, the trait line is a grab bag of random effects that barely help us, and Overloads have their risk/reward ratio skewed hilariously towards risk. Oh, and the Ele shouts are meh.

Even if you don’t think that it feels like an upgrade, actually it is. Elementalist gets the ability to overcharge their attunements, so they get more skills to choose from. More skills available is an upgrade, because you are getting more versatile. If you choose to not use them, ok, but don’t negate the fact that it is an upgrade.

It isn’t an upgrade because Overloads aren’t free. We have to pay an opportunity cost to actually use them (5 seconds staying in the attunement, 4 seconds of of channeling while in close range of your target, and then 7 seconds longer lock-out if you switch to another attunement), and beyond that, we have to invest in a trait line that isn’t remotely competitive with the other options.

The Reaper trait line, on the other hand, has all sorts of goodies for us on top of the switch to Reaper’s Shroud, the Greatsword is a really competitive weapon choice (though IMO kinda duplicative with Reaper’s Shroud), and we have enough built-in durability that swapping out Wells or Spectral skills for Shouts is actually somewhat feasible.

I don’t normally like comparing two professions with each other but when it comes to Elite Specializations, the Necromancer is coming out solidly ahead of the Elementalist. Reaper is going to be very popular, a strong choice, whereas I would be surprised to see Tempests much outside of gimmick teams if they don’t see a major rework.

I don’t get your logic. If you think that way, then adding all weapons available in game to one class wouldn’t be an upgrade too? Because, well, if you use this one specific weapon, you are not able to use another one. That’s just false, to have more options to choose from is an upgrade.

Kodama.6453:

I don’t get your logic. If you think that way, then adding all weapons available in game to one class wouldn’t be an upgrade too? Because, well, if you use this one specific weapon, you are not able to use another one. That’s just false, to have more options to choose from is an upgrade.

Again, access to the Warhorn isn’t free: you have to pay for it with a Trait line (very expensive for the Elementalist, who needs his current trait lines to stay alive and kicking) but what you get isn’t very valuable. That’s my point: you don’t get what you pay for to go Tempest, whereas you very much do get what you pay for when you go Reaper.

Kodama.6453:

I don’t get your logic. If you think that way, then adding all weapons available in game to one class wouldn’t be an upgrade too? Because, well, if you use this one specific weapon, you are not able to use another one. That’s just false, to have more options to choose from is an upgrade.

Quoted for truth.
As I see it, upgrade = new skills ON TOP of the old ones. That means chronomancer is a direct upgrade for a mesmer, berserker for a warrior, scrapper for engineer, daredevil for thief and, tempest for elementalist and herald for revenant. Dragonhunter and reaper are the only ones which REPLACES the core mechanics with new ones, which is btw my preferred style of elite specs.
Of course, every elite spec has a choice to make: a trait line. But that’s it. Reaper and dragonhunter have that choice AND to change the core mechanics or not.

Since some of you are talking about tempest: overload mechanic provides you new skills ON TOP of the current ones. Attunements are not replaced by overloads, you can discuss if you want that overloads are useful or not (or even the tempest itself) but that is another topic.

I think some people maybe misunderstand my problem.

My problem isnt that the Reaper maybe isnt good. I know that he even fits our greatest weakness. My Problem is realy simple -> We are the only profession ( + dragonhunter maybe ) who is gonna lose something ( important ) to trade with the Elite. Even if we just want to use greatsword, shouds or even just traits -> our Shroud gets automaticly replaced

We could have anything, the Reaper could be OP like kitten … But thats not my point. Every Elite have to trade a Traidline, thats okay and fair. But we are gonna lose 5 skills and our best period range damage too. It would be okay if thats the Case ( Elite should be an other playstyle, not the only playstyle ). But all other elite ( except maybe the dragonhunter ) doesnt have to lose something too …

Why can a Daredevil still use “steal”? Why does have a Chono still F1-4? Why has a tempest still 4 attunments etc? And our F1 got replaced automaticly.

Lynnie.7213:

Man, you guys can’t be happy with anything? Reaper is a HUGE buff on necromancers and other professions are indeed trading up stuffs. Not all of them, but some are.
And tbh, chrono and reaper are the best specialization so far.

it is not a YOU guys problem, the arguments OP is making is entirely out of ignorance.

I suspect many of you trying to say Daredevil doesn’t lose anything don’t play thief much – to take Daredevil, no we don’t give up something as obvious as actual skills.

Thief is however far more dependent on the augments and synergy within specific trait lines than most other professions are – to get DD they have to give up an entire set of augments to straight damage or personal survivability or utility. Daredevil is primarily around dodging at the expense of stealth, with frankly currently a very very disjointed new kit attached to it, and currently huge issues with the new dodges that are the Grandmaster, that are all incredibly situational and likely to instead get you killed. Thief has laughable base condition removal, most of what they get is based around trait lines that augments stealth….which Daredevil doesn’t mesh with very well. Most thieves are NOT considering taking it as a result, because it is not a viable option in most circumstances – it doesn’t give anything good in exchange for the losses, nor does it address the base problems or obvious areas the class is lacking in.

Instead Reaper gets entire new mechanic options in exchange for an old one that is a very viable change in gameplay, with a dev that actually appears to be responding.

Remasuri.2458:

I know, i know the Reaper is in some situation a huge update for every Necro … But on the other hand we are maybe the only Elite who is gonna lose something -> Death Shroud.

Other elite just have to trade a Traitline and its already worth ( buffed F-skills, traits, weapons etc. ), you can play your new elite like your old Class, just with some Buffs.
- You can play your Daredevil just like your old Thief, with 3 dodges ( and even more ) …
- you can just play your Dragonhunter like your Guardian just with buffed F-Skills ( and even more )
- You can play your Chrono like a Mesmer, with an OP F5 Skills ( and you know … )

We can play Reaper, and lose for example our only worth period rangeddamage ( Shroud 1 ) … automaticly. It feels like we are the only Elite where something is completly replaced … its okay because i think this should be the thing ( old classes shouldnt just be worthless/replaced ) … But compared to all other elite it feels … not fair

sorry for bad english <2+1

As an ele main, I have to disagree. Yes you lose your ranged damage but you have to keep in mind that the Reaper is designed for melee combat, that’s the main focus of the entire specialization. It may feel like its not fair, but believe me necromancers got the better end of the deal from HoT compared to Guardians and Eles.

Before I continue, I’m talking from a WvW perspective. Just throwing that out there.

My assumption is that a lot of Guardians are preparing to swap to Revenant because Revenants are better at providing offensive boons, that and the disappointment of many Guardians due to Dragonhunter (not to be rude to those who look forward to DH). The virtues may be different but its no better then what they currently have. Honestly, I wish they would make scepter auto-attacks homing on a Guardian, its too unreliable for moving targets and is why we don’t have a ranged option until DH was announced.

As for elementalists, we get Tempest. In my opinion, I’m not looking forward to running Tempest at all. Its not appealing and it definitely does not help the fact a lot of elementalist players were looking forward to using the sword, not the warhorn.
Warhorn is a boring support weapon and I’d much rather use staff because at least then I can provide support safely at range rather then having to blast fields in melee range with Dagger/Warhorn.

Tempest locks us out of an attunement and that’s going to cause a lot of problems as it essentially increases cooldowns on all of our skills (the attunement were locked out of) when we overload and leave the attunement. There will be times where we may want to camp in an attunement for a bit but we accidentally overload for camping too long, which can screw up an entire fight. Overloading water is going to be the biggest problem, it takes 2.75 seconds to overload water and it then locks us out for 20 seconds. The moment we overload water, were dead the moment we switch out of it because its very easy to kill an elementalist knowing they are locked out of water attunement after overloading.

My point is, Reaper is going to be one of (if not the most) solid addition to the game for elite specializations compared to a lot of the other specializations coming out of HoT.

ThrynDrakarian.3179:

I suspect many of you trying to say Daredevil doesn’t lose anything don’t play thief much – to take Daredevil, no we don’t give up something as obvious as actual skills.

Thief is however far more dependent on the augments and synergy within specific trait lines than most other professions are – to get DD they have to give up an entire set of augments to straight damage or personal survivability or utility. Daredevil is primarily around dodging at the expense of stealth, with frankly currently a very very disjointed new kit attached to it, and currently huge issues with the new dodges that are the Grandmaster, that are all incredibly situational and likely to instead get you killed. Thief has laughable base condition removal, most of what they get is based around trait lines that augments stealth….which Daredevil doesn’t mesh with very well. Most thieves are NOT considering taking it as a result, because it is not a viable option in most circumstances – it doesn’t give anything good in exchange for the losses, nor does it address the base problems or obvious areas the class is lacking in.

Instead Reaper gets entire new mechanic options in exchange for an old one that is a very viable change in gameplay, with a dev that actually appears to be responding.

I think you don’t get our point (at least mine, since I’m speaking for myself :P), daredevil for example gets a new mechanic (more endurance), just like reaper does (reaper shroud), but it doesn’t sacrifice the old one (steal) for the new one…. unlike reaper that sacrifices death shroud for reaper shroud.
Of course daredevil loses synergies because of the trait line but that is the same for every other elite spec in the game. Everyone gets a the option of a new weapon and everyone gets a new trait line but not everyone gets a new mechanic for free (reaper and dragonhunter replace the old ones).

PS.: Just to be clear, I’m not complaining about reaper at all. In fact, I love it and I have a Twilight crafted just for it

Ok OP u are are right we are loosing DS our core mechanic but thats why so far Reaper in my opinion is the bets spec so far

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

Kodama.6453:

I don’t get your logic. If you think that way, then adding all weapons available in game to one class wouldn’t be an upgrade too? Because, well, if you use this one specific weapon, you are not able to use another one. That’s just false, to have more options to choose from is an upgrade.

Quoted for truth.
As I see it, upgrade = new skills ON TOP of the old ones. That means chronomancer is a direct upgrade for a mesmer, berserker for a warrior, scrapper for engineer, daredevil for thief and, tempest for elementalist and herald for revenant. Dragonhunter and reaper are the only ones which REPLACES the core mechanics with new ones, which is btw my preferred style of elite specs.
Of course, every elite spec has a choice to make: a trait line. But that’s it. Reaper and dragonhunter have that choice AND to change the core mechanics or not.

Since some of you are talking about tempest: overload mechanic provides you new skills ON TOP of the current ones. Attunements are not replaced by overloads, you can discuss if you want that overloads are useful or not (or even the tempest itself) but that is another topic.

Except this is far too simplistic a way of thinking about it.

The Elementalist isn’t getting skills for free. You have to pay for them with a crappy trait line, and they just aren’t worth the cost. The Reaper trait line is awesome, so Reaper’s Shroud is paid for by losing Death Shroud (+part of one minor trait).

Remasuri.2458:

I think some people maybe misunderstand my problem.

My problem isnt that the Reaper maybe isnt good. I know that he even fits our greatest weakness. My Problem is realy simple -> We are the only profession ( + dragonhunter maybe ) who is gonna lose something ( important ) to trade with the Elite. Even if we just want to use greatsword, shouds or even just traits -> our Shroud gets automaticly replaced

We could have anything, the Reaper could be OP like kitten … But thats not my point. Every Elite have to trade a Traidline, thats okay and fair. But we are gonna lose 5 skills and our best period range damage too. It would be okay if thats the Case ( Elite should be an other playstyle, not the only playstyle ). But all other elite ( except maybe the dragonhunter ) doesnt have to lose something too …

Why can a Daredevil still use “steal”? Why does have a Chono still F1-4? Why has a tempest still 4 attunments etc? And our F1 got replaced automaticly.

Because the Reaper trait line is competitive with our other trait lines. It would have to be significantly worse to justify adding Reaper’s Shroud as an F2 while keeping Death Shroud as F1.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I think you don’t get our point (at least mine, since I’m speaking for myself :P), daredevil for example gets a new mechanic (more endurance), just like reaper does (reaper shroud), but it doesn’t sacrifice the old one (steal) for the new one…. unlike reaper that sacrifices death shroud for reaper shroud.
Of course daredevil loses synergies because of the trait line but that is the same for every other elite spec in the game. Everyone gets a the option of a new weapon and everyone gets a new trait line but not everyone gets a new mechanic for free (reaper and dragonhunter replace the old ones).

The problem is those synergy losses are bigger for a thief than nearly any other profession. They genuinely are, with your current average build likely to be Deadly Arts (flat damage boosts, with poison + dmg & self heal on Steal) Trickery (party buffs + boon steal on Steal, with Initiative regains) and Shadow Arts (better stealth, cond removal in stealth + misc other stealth benefits).

Deadly Arts – don’t take it, huge damage loss (30% on targets under 50% with a single cond on them, which is 2 traits combined btw), alongside poison being pointless (line makes it also apply Weakness for 4s on application poison with an ICD of 10s), and Steal being less useful due to it not applying Poison + Weakness or dmg/healing on successful use. Also makes you do extra damage on coming out of stealth.

Trickery – don’t take it, on Steal you now don’t get 1 stack each of Fury, Might & Swiftness, +2 initiative, 2 stolen boons + vigor, nor 35% Steal CD reduction. On top of that you have less initiative and initiative recovery, leading to less Weapon Skill use and less survivability and output.

Shadow Arts – don’t take it in PvP you’re dead due to minimal self condition removal options and those they have being either very specific or removing only 1 random one, often on 30s+ CD. And the stealth cond removal got massively nerfed with the June trait changes (now 1 removed after every 3s in stealth) and wasn’t that brilliant to begin with (was 1 immediately + 1 per 3s after). Don’t take SA and Stealth options? probably dead to conditions as a result. Also grants stealth for rezzing.

Additional funfact and a major counterpoint – Acrobatics prior to the June trait changes effectively gave us a 3rd dodge bar due to the augments in it to dodge and endurance gain, which we got rehashed into DD.

DD itself – The real ‘new’ mechanic is the dodge variants, not the 3rd dodge, but a) it’s your Grandmaster trait choice, b) all 3 are incredibly situational, currently extremely glitchy and c) all 3 are likely to accidentally destealth you on use,

You get: 1 extra dodge (that stolen from an old line that is now barely useable as a result), and a weapon that is extremely high initiative use, extremely clunky and is all about NOT being in stealth (which is so key to a thief survival in PvP), alongside no combo fields on the weapon set or on the new utilities, nor any new ways to remove conditions. Oh and an Elite you can insta kill a downed person with if you can get close enough and not be interrupted for several seconds…

Genuinely not worth the losses to damage, survival, team support or class mechanics not taking any of those lines would do. Baseline thief is not as great kitten many people make out to be, neither is the class mechanic Steal at baseline, due to a combo of how random the skills granted in PvE are alongside some profession stolen skills being just rubbish.

I’ll not go on further about it given it’s in the Necro forum and I don’t want to derail too much, but Thief has to give up a LOT to take DD for minimal benefit in most modes, IMO much much more than the Reaper line costs Necros based on meddling with both during the trial weekends, and with less of a viable change in play style. =)

Guards are getting a horrible trait line with our elite spec. Our virtue of resolve now heals for 4k, which is awesome until you realize you have to use that kitten elite traitline in order to access it.

I play necro for more than1 year and reaper is awesome, I truly cant even begin to comprehend what the OP is thinking.