Guild Wars 2

Issue:
In my current build i use ‘Spiteful Talisman’, ‘Signet Mastery’ and ‘Close to Death’. The new system in its current state (stream preview) would not allow this anymore.

Reasoning:
Yes, ‘Signet Mastery’ gets a buff by activating ‘Signet of the Locust’ when struck below 50% HP, but that won’t do much in alot of situations as its range is only 480. It is a buff but i don’t see it big enough to make it a grandmaster trait.

Solution:
I would like to see ‘Signet Mastery’ switch places with ‘Death Shiver’ or ‘Axe Training’, remove the little buff from it and give a more meaningful buff to the new grandmaster trait.

Alternatively, make ‘Signet Mastery’ worthy of being a grandmaster trait and give it an actualy significant buff that justifies it being at this position.

If signets get buffed a bit so that they have a little bit of internal synergy and/or have lower CDs, this trait is quite strong. It is a free AoE heal on 24s CD when under 50% HP, this is the exact kind of scaling defense we ask for, plus it is might, plus it is CDR to signets. It is a really nice change.

The only problem with it is signets have too long of CDs right now.

Bhawb.7408:

The only problem with it is signets have too long of CDs right now.

Well they did say that they are thinking of reducing the cd of many utility skills so this may not be an issue.

Bhawb.7408:

It is a free AoE heal on 24s CD when under 50% HP

Well yes, i agree that’s pretty nice, you got a point there.
The thing is, at least with the current numbers i feel like its not quite up there with other grandmaster traits tho. I mean just looking at other passive healing traits like backpack regenerator or whatever else doesn’t make this look like a grandmaster. Let’s hope the upcoming skill changes reveal it to be more effective than it seems now.

EDIT:
suggestions:
- Signet of Locust blinds in an area around you and is a stunbreaker (basicly make it like signet of air or signet of shadows)
- Activating a signet grants 10% lifeforce
- Activating a signet grants 3 seconds of spectral armor
- Signet Mastery activates a weaker version of Signet of Vampirism instead of Locust

I feel like the only thing holding it back is the lack of other signets being very good. The SoL activation alone heals for 970(0.5) (according to wiki) per person hit, which is a 5k heal, up to around 8k if you have high healing power, and can be activated up to twice every 24s. In teamfights you’re looking at having two extra healing skills available to you.

Running a signet power necro build I personally am opposed to this change because now Close to Death and what used to be an adept trait are competing for a spot effectively killing the build. No matter what they add to the Signet Mastery trait it will never be worth a grandmaster slot. This change made it master at best, but the change of adding Signet of The Locust active doesn’t really improve anything. You mostly use the signet for the bonus movespeed and even then barely anyone runs it in PvP. They added a worthless active to an adept trait and moved it to Grandmaster? It makes zero sense. Against 1 person the active proccing a heal is negligible, against 5…well as a necro you’re going to be the main focus of those players so a larger 3-4k AoE heal will still do you no good. This is not what necro needs for active defense and not to mention its hampering build diversity.

Genesis.7693:

Running a signet power necro build I personally am opposed to this change because now Close to Death and what used to be an adept trait are competing for a spot effectively killing the build. No matter what they add to the Signet Mastery trait it will never be worth a grandmaster slot. This change made it master at best, but the change of adding Signet of The Locust active doesn’t really improve anything. You mostly use the signet for the bonus movespeed and even then barely anyone runs it in PvP. They added a worthless active to an adept trait and moved it to Grandmaster? It makes zero sense. Against 1 person the active proccing a heal is negligible, against 5…well as a necro you’re going to be the main focus of those players so a larger 3-4k AoE heal will still do you no good. This is not what necro needs for active defense and not to mention its hampering build diversity.

It can get blinded and I am pretty sure you’l’ll need LoS to get siphon off don’t forget poison. Poor poor decision…

I think this trait should also activate Signet of Spite when a foe hits 50%, and increasing might gain per signet use to 5 maybe?

I think that trait will highly depend on how good our signets will be and they even said that on stream. So alteast we can expect some improvments for our signets…

Bhawb.7408:

I feel like the only thing holding it back is the lack of other signets being very good. The SoL activation alone heals for 970(0.5) (according to wiki) per person hit, which is a 5k heal, up to around 8k if you have high healing power, and can be activated up to twice every 24s. In teamfights you’re looking at having two extra healing skills available to you.

We’re talking 480 range here. You can have a plethora of classes attacking you from anything but melee, and when you hit 50% hp the active procs, and awesome you just got healed for 0. The estimate of 5k is like when 5 warriors are on you which is super generous, not to mention you can get poisoned and if you only face one other player you get healed for less than 1000 so its the equivalent to a sigil of leeching…..this does not warrant a grandmaster spot in the spite traitline at all. Also the other 3 signets are actually better than SoL. They literally put the worst signet active on this trait and called it a Grandmaster. Definitely not the right direction for necros.

Also I haven’t heard of healing power necro builds to try and take advantage of the hypothetical “8k” healing from SoL and a necro in a teamfight when focused down (which is the norm) cannot even hope to live 24 seconds. When you get focused the active SoL from the trait will proc, you’ll heal for like 2k, and die 0.5 seconds late which sounds a lot more realistic.

This is NOT a grandmaster trait, it just needs to get looked at again and get buffed in the proper places like baseline reduction of signet cooldowns, and potentially increasing the might stacks or adding a separate boon on each signet for activating. Eg. Spite would give more stacks of might to make up for the passive bonus of 180 power that is lost, Plague would grant Fury maybe, Undeath could maybe give Protection and SoL Regeneration or swiftness or something.

Bhawb.7408:

I feel like the only thing holding it back is the lack of other signets being very good. The SoL activation alone heals for 970(0.5) (according to wiki) per person hit, which is a 5k heal, up to around 8k if you have high healing power, and can be activated up to twice every 24s. In teamfights you’re looking at having two extra healing skills available to you.

Thats why it should be normalized between healing and damage portion, buff damage up to WoC level, nerf healing to 75% of it.

Of all the Signets, Signet of the Locust is the best one to proc automatically. It doesn’t care if you have a target, and the effect is never wasted.

For example, if Signet of Spite were the proc, let’s say you just got backstabbed by a thief. You don’t have a target on him, so the proc is completely blown for no effect. Or let’s say you have a Zerker stance Warrior as your target. Ummmm, nada.

Signet of the Locust is the best signet they could have thrown in there. Even if you’re blinded or poisoned, the proc isn’t actually wasted. If you were blinded, then that Blind gets cleared without stopping any of your active skills. If you’re poisoned, sure, the effect is weaker, but you still get healed when you’re below half health at no action from you.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Of all the Signets, Signet of the Locust is the best one to proc automatically. It doesn’t care if you have a target, and the effect is never wasted.

For example, if Signet of Spite were the proc, let’s say you just got backstabbed by a thief. You don’t have a target on him, so the proc is completely blown for no effect. Or let’s say you have a Zerker stance Warrior as your target. Ummmm, nada.

Signet of the Locust is the best signet they could have thrown in there. Even if you’re blinded or poisoned, the proc isn’t actually wasted. If you were blinded, then that Blind gets cleared without stopping any of your active skills. If you’re poisoned, sure, the effect is weaker, but you still get healed when you’re below half health at no action from you.

Yes I agree it is the best active to proc automatically, but my argument is asking why is it even there? It feels like they put little thought into it and said “Lets slap on an active signet effect, and move this to grandmaster status.” It makes absolutely no sense.

Also yes the active can easily be wasted. The radius is 480. A necro using axe can outrange the active proc lmao, thats hilarious. Now imagine a power ranger pew pewing at 1500 range. You drop to 50% hp…bam signet proc completely wasted. An Ele is on you and uses obsidian flesh and brings you down to 50% hp. Signet proc wasted yet again. Not to mention in a 1v1 you heal less than 1k. With poison that drops to like 600-700 hp. This is negligible. Its like 1 auto attack from a full bunk build….this completely doesn’t warrant a grandmaster slot AT ALL.

It does next to nothing for your survivability as a necro in any situation, whether it’d be a 1v1, a small skirmish or a full teamfight. Necro’s lack of scaling in outnumbered fights and the norm of “Focus a necro first when you see one” means that you’ll be dying just as fast with or without this signet. Even if you maximize the heal you get from this signet with a leech from 5 players that’s still like 4k-5k heal tops…You won’t survive for a second longer when you’re under the focus fire of 5 players.

My point is if no one is using locust signet with its active now why would it somehow be good as an added pseudo 4th utility all of a sudden? The closest thing we have similar to this new trait is the auto activation of Spectral Armor at 50% hp and thats a Minor Master trait. A utility skill numerous times more useful than SoL that provides Life force Generation, protection AND a free stun break. SoL is a crappy heal that’s just countered by range lol…. Signet of Locust can’t compete for a slot on your utility bar for a reason, and it definitely can’t make Signet Mastery’s 20% CDR on Signets compete for a grandmaster trait slot. Especially against the Close to Death GM trait.

Really wondering what Anet was thinking with this change. If it stays the way it was and its not changed all they succeeded in doing was kill more necro builds.

Because people are using Signet of the Locust now. There are two reasons why people didn’t:

1. Three-slot syndrome. Due to a Necro’s inability to avoid CC, two stunbreakers were mandatory on the bar. Corrupt Boon is practically glued on there as it is the primary reason to bring a Necro in the first place. In PvE, this wasn’t the case, but there people rarely need the active. With the change to Foot in the Grave, this is less of a concern now.

2. People are not realizing how good it actually is. They still think it’s terrible from when it had 40% of the scaling it does now and had a cooldown that was half as long again as it is now. Their perception hasn’t changed with the skill, as I can tell is the case with you.

Besides, even if you have no foes in range when it procs, you still get 3 Might. So, again, it will never be a complete waste. Using trait to get a burst of healing equivalent to a dedicated heal skill is good. Perhaps you haven’t realized it, but it’s quite possible right now for necros to effectively have 3 heal skills on their bar.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because people are using Signet of the Locust now. There are two reasons why people didn’t:

1. Three-slot syndrome. Due to a Necro’s inability to avoid CC, two stunbreakers were mandatory on the bar. Corrupt Boon is practically glued on there as it is the primary reason to bring a Necro in the first place. In PvE, this wasn’t the case, but there people rarely need the active. With the change to Foot in the Grave, this is less of a concern now.

2. People are not realizing how good it actually is. They still think it’s terrible from when it had 40% of the scaling it does now and had a cooldown that was half as long again as it is now. Their perception hasn’t changed with the skill, as I can tell is the case with you.

Besides, even if you have no foes in range when it procs, you still get 3 Might. So, again, it will never be a complete waste. Using trait to get a burst of healing equivalent to a dedicated heal skill is good. Perhaps you haven’t realized it, but it’s quite possible right now for necros to effectively have 3 heal skills on their bar.

It still seems like a lazy band-aid, heals are hard to get off recovery is poor so we give you a GM trait with a chance of being your heal, instead of making already existing heals effective. Like Genesis mentioned it will just delay your death that heal won’t negate the pressure on you it’s a perfect scenario GM,if SoL broke stun it could decent but then I would realize how much more we are vulnerable to CC we run 3-4 stun breakers,2 on skill bar+SA from Soul Reaping+maybe FotG we would add another passive one,more band-aids, it would become 5 and we still would be vulnerable to CC.

It also solidifies our “tank” role, tank while in DS have 3 heals out of DS,it’s a repeating process that’s why they are pushing every spec into DS. Why the trinity mentality? I tough GW2 was going away from that and was supposed to be dynamic.

Sagat.3285:

It still seems like a lazy band-aid, heals are hard to get off recovery is poor so we give you a GM trait with a chance of being your heal, instead of making already existing heals effective. Like Genesis mentioned it will just delay your death that heal won’t negate the pressure on you it’s a perfect scenario GM,if SoL broke stun it could decent but then I would realize how much more we are vulnerable to CC we run 3-4 stun breakers,2 on skill bar+SA from Soul Reaping+maybe FotG we would add another passive one,more band-aids, it would become 5 and we still would be vulnerable to CC.

It also solidifies our “tank” role, tank while in DS have 3 heals out of DS,it’s a repeating process that’s why they are pushing every spec into DS. Why the trinity mentality? I tough GW2 was going away from that and was supposed to be dynamic.

It’s not a tank role or trinity though. Necromancers from the beginning were supposed to be the attrition profession of the light armored classes. That means being able to take a lot of hits, mix it up in close/skirmish combat with less active defense required. DS is our main mechanic for achieving said attrition. So I don’t see why this would be an issue improving our attrition in and out of DS and making DS more attractive to all builds, and giving us more sustain not based on main self heal usage. The way DS was supposed to work was a revolving door/wackamole concept. Necros were to constantly interchange in and out of DS to survive, but that was poorly implemented and we could never generate enough LF fast enough to re-enter DS more than once or twice then die due to low HP. So many started ignoring DS altogether back in the day and focused on killing people as quickly as possible instead. The attrition aspect of the class has gotten much better over time, but has problems keeping up with the power creep of other classes. Further buffs need to be made and we could still use better and faster LF gain (like the idea in another thread to make Soul Marks functionality baseline which would fix a lot of LF gain issues, while further decreasing our trait starvation).

We will have to see whether by making the above changes, Anet decides many of our skills are fine (aka not updating them), or buff our existing skills as they should. I noticed SoL in the GM trait has a base 30 second CD. Right now it’s at 40s for the real Signet of the Locust, which was previously 60 seconds. So that along with the things they supposedly said in the stream (Still haven’t watched it) and the statement about Signet of Undeath in the last skill update, suggests that they’re already addressing Signets and other skills for buffage.

Signet of the Locust is actually kind of nice now. Still very undependable since a random blind easily ruins your day as mentioned. I use it in some builds and it definitely could use a stunbreak. Although those builds do quite well at absorbing stuns/damage spikes by entering a toughness stated DS (still get owned by chain CC of course ).

It’s best when used immediately after some area CC application. When SoL does actually work it pretty much resets the fight for my sustain builds without having to use your main self heal. Sometimes this is just a exercise of futility as there’s too much pressure. The signet in conjunction with other aattrition/heals, has turned the tables in Spvp/WvW roaming more than a few times in my favour (usually against turret engies, mes clones or two rangers which all proc the 4-5 steals).

In PvE SoL works all the time and the GM SoL will too. If you use healing power and/or builds with bloodthirst, this could easily become a free self heal every 24/30 CD in PvE.

However, because SoL needs good timing to be effective in SPvP/WvW, I’m not sure how good an automatic activation of SoL at 50% health will actually be for those modes. I would be willing to bet that it would fail even more so than SoL utility. In that case, you do have to judge GM Signet Mastery based on whether it’s worth the 20% CDR, 3 might stacks on signet use and a heal that may only work 10%-20% of the time, but still gives 3 might stacks regardless.

That all depends on the possible rework of Signets and how good they will be compared to other options. If it feels a bit wonky, then Signet Mastery may need to provide more Might stacks on signet activation to make it GM worthy.

“Trade hits” that’s the issue right there that mindset need to go to the shredder. Ele or mesmer will survive way longer than necro while dishing out damage and supporting allies actually every class but necro traited or built for it will survive longer or sustain itself while doing damage. The issue with DS is that it neglects other defenses,more active active ones, a resource mechanic should not be affected by foes, who choses passive defense over active active that should be/is more rewarding necro vs others show that. It’s like saying let’s buff death clones specs to be on par with shatter and CC specs.

There is a reason terromancer is seen as higher skill needed than powermancer, it’s has more rotations and less passive defense focused than power version. Instead of improving skilled based defense of terromancer they are forcing us to facetank which is less skilled based. It’s very much trinity “trading hits” focuses mechanic should not be a goal in a dynamic combat system. Buffing DS dominance means less self sustain/utility from other lines, guard is the traditional “tank” it does it job way better on almost every spec with less HP and more active defenses, promoting DS was a kitten fail if it ever becomes on par with active defense the community will complain and we will get nerfed. That’s why they are slow with improvements just kitten fail. There is a blindness outbreak…

If they wanted a trade hit class they would have siphon better or the main defense of necro, that would have been easier to improve than DS.

Unless the signets get a substantial buff, this trait will see no play whatsoever, especially since it’s going up against Close to Death. Nobody is going to give up a 20% damage boost to an enemy under 50% health for just a slight reduction on cruddy signets, and an active that requires 5 enemies to be remotely effective.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Unless the signets get a substantial buff, this trait will see no play whatsoever, especially since it’s going up against Close to Death. Nobody is going to give up a 20% damage boost to an enemy under 50% health for just a slight reduction on cruddy signets, and an active that requires 5 enemies to be remotely effective.

If you aren’t playing a full zerker build 20% damage under 50% isn’t necessarily important to you. Condition builds, bunker builds, support builds, anyone who is making a build where damage isn’t the first concern would be able to take this.

Sagat.3285:

“Trade hits” that’s the issue right there that mindset need to go to the shredder. Ele or mesmer will survive way longer than necro while dishing out damage and supporting allies actually every class but necro traited or built for it will survive longer or sustain itself while doing damage. The issue with DS is that it neglects other defenses,more active active ones, a resource mechanic should not be affected by foes, who choses passive defense over active active that should be/is more rewarding necro vs others show that. It’s like saying let’s buff death clones specs to be on par with shatter and CC specs.

There is a reason terromancer is seen as higher skill needed than powermancer, it’s has more rotations and less passive defense focused than power version. Instead of improving skilled based defense of terromancer they are forcing us to facetank which is less skilled based. It’s very much trinity “trading hits” focuses mechanic should not be a goal in a dynamic combat system. Buffing DS dominance means less self sustain/utility from other lines, guard is the traditional “tank” it does it job way better on almost every spec with less HP and more active defenses, promoting DS was a kitten fail if it ever becomes on par with active defense the community will complain and we will get nerfed. That’s why they are slow with improvements just kitten fail. There is a blindness outbreak…

I don’t know what you mean by forced tanking, especially for condi/terrormancer. No force tanking is required by condis, unless you take something like Sigils of Geomancy/Mark of Evasion, using a sustain build, have no precision etc.

Going into Spite for GM Signet Mastery I don’t think will ever be a “must” for terrormancers/condis either, so SoL on 50% health isn’t going to force any of them into melee range. The changes to DS and the extra trait points will make it easier for condis to use DS to absorb damage while still damaging with condis from any range. Sure you can argue that DS isn’t as good as active defenses, but do you really think besides a specialization, that Anet is going to get rid of or completely rework DS? Because for us to get more active defense on par with other classes that will need to happen.

Trading hits isn’t what DS is about anyways. It’s about (or was supposed to be about) being able to manage spikes and CC by taking advantage of an easily replenish-able second health bar, while getting access to some powerful skills. However, “able” and “easily replenish” were missing and still are to an extent (you have to take traits in SR and DM to make DS work closer to what was indented).

Again, the main specific reasons as to why Death Shroud has always had issues are:

1. It depletes itself over time, so enemies would/could/can wait it out especially on condi specs that do low DPS in DS. Solution: Slower to no degeneration.
2. When that happens and we’re low on health, it can be very hard to get off any heal or active/passive defenses when people just finish you off immediately. This got worse when DS was patched to carry over damage that ended it. Solution: Some way to reward Necros the longer they keep DS up (aka healing while in DS) and thus punish those who wait for DS to drop.
3. Not enough self LF gain without traits and not enough sustain outside DS to continue entering DS. Solution: More innate/accessible LF gain on skills and weapons, more sustain and counter CC on utility skills.

Vital Persistance/Unholy Sanctuary, and the recent merges/changes in SR help with problems 1 and 2. Problem 3 is solved by getting more health sustains outside DS, like SoL on GM Signet Mastery, Parasitic Contagion, Siphons (hopefully), on exit buffs etc. Sustain and defense that isn’t dependent on one self heal or active defense which can easily be CCed/interrupted no matter how good it is.

I get your point though that a rework of how our sustain/defense works inside and outside of DS could be more symbiotic/active and this may be the best time for that to happen. It’s just not a design philosophy Anet has taken up.

For GM Signet Mastery to be worthy of its slot, I think it probably needs 2-3 more might stacks, and Signets need to have faster and better actives. We already have LF gain and CC utilities (Spectral skills), Boon Hate and Condi Propagation (Corruptions), and indirect Area Support (Wells). What’s missing is direct support/sustain, more counter cc (stunbreaks) and active defense. Signets should probably provide some or most of what’s missing at the sacrifice of passive buffs.

Or instead of 2-3 extra stacks of Might, make signets give 3 stacks of area Might.

Another suggestion i could think about:

Signet Mastery as a grandmaster trait now upgrades all signets for some kind of area effect:
Signet of the Locust: Heals yourself and allies in a 600radius for the same amount
Plague Signet: pull 1 condi from each ally in a 600 radius before sending your condition to a foe
Signet of Spite: Give 3 stacks of might to allies in a 600 radius
Signet of Undeath: Heal allies in a 600 radius

In addition to that, the might from using a signet also is applied to nearby allies.

On a different note, lets compare other grandmaster signet traits to necros signet mastery:

1: most noticeable, elementalists ‘Written in Stone’: Maintain the passive effects of signets when you activate them.
This is a build changing trait, definitively worthy of being a grandmaster

2: guardians ‘perfect inscriptions’: Gain light aura when activating a signet. Signets recharge 20% faster. Signets have improved passive effects (20%).
I dont know if signet guardy is thing at all, but this seems to be a good buff for the way guardy signet passives work.

3: not in the game anymore, but i beliefe ranger had a grandmaster trait for signets that would apply signet effects not only to their pet but also themselfes. Before this was made baseline, it was as well a build changing trait worthy of its grandmaster position.

I think this makes clear that the current necro ‘Signet Mastery’ with or without the additional SoL proc definitely feels more like a master trait and not nearly as effective as any of the other grandmaster signet traits.