Guild Wars 2

there was never a reason to go into the duration tree, because you got plenty of duration from runes, curses traits, and food. Besides in pvp, your conditions don’t last that long because they are cleansed so easily, making duration less necessary. Why cant you see that duration was not needed, and for the love of god, duration on burn will do nothing.

I disagree with you on every point, but I don’t actually consider your post worth arguing with.

This is because most of what you said is self evidently wrong.

Mammoth, please explain it to me, where a condition mancer who wants to get great marks and staff cooldowns needs to go into condition duration tree to augment his condition build? To me, going into spite never really helped my condition build that much, because it never did anything for a straight condition build that would argue replacing the need for the death magic tree (staff skills + toughness). I could see going slightly into spite, but not to augment duration, as I got plenty of duration, 2 fear tics, etc., without spite, and spite never increased damage that much on a condition build. now, to have a decent condition build, and want to add burning, which is a condition, you have to seriously limit death magic., aside from the fact that in pvp matches, conditions get cleansed immediately, thus duration for the sake of suvivability is a HUGE letdown.

I would ask that you point out my error, because perhaps it will make me a better player and i am not saying that in a condescending tone. Or please list a build that you think would adequately make a good condition build. Is 30/30/10 the new condition build?

Mammoth.1975:

I disagree with you on every point, but I don’t actually consider your post worth arguing with.

This is because most of what you said is self evidently wrong.

If you go for sPVP condition duration doesn’t really do that much with all the cleanses, unless it’s your fears.

Moving terror to the 20 tier can only be justified if it’s damage doesn’t get blocked by stability anymore or we see that patch with a lot more good things in it.

For some reason the entitled attitude of the gaming community makes me think we really deserve whatever punishment we get. Really now, tens of QQ threads about lack of necro mobility. Then Anet says “Hey, we’ll give you speed while in DS! Cool, huh?”. Not a peep, not a single poster acknowledges this. Suddenly it’s all QQ about Terror freakin’ being moved. Not nerfed but moved! Can’t you guys ever be happy about something?

Speed in DS isn’t terribly good because it won’t stack with other speed boosts, so is only useful if you don’t run swiftness/signet (or do we not get the passive from that in DS? I remember a thread about that), making it rather undesirable compared to some other traits that can take that spot, I don’t think many people will be taking this.

With terror, the master traits in that line are actually rather good, and typically one was used (mainly faster corruption CD’s, but the others are very useful depending on the build), which means they can no longer take both, short of putting 30 in that line; on top of having to invest double the points to get terror if they weren’t interested in the old master traits.
Whether this was a needed change or not doesn’t matter, the fact is it restricts people when making a (rather common) build, so of course people aren’t going to be happy.

Kettu.6394:

For some reason the entitled attitude of the gaming community makes me think we really deserve whatever punishment we get. Really now, tens of QQ threads about lack of necro mobility. Then Anet says “Hey, we’ll give you speed while in DS! Cool, huh?”. Not a peep, not a single poster acknowledges this. Suddenly it’s all QQ about Terror freakin’ being moved. Not nerfed but moved! Can’t you guys ever be happy about something?

You mean the trait boost from 15% to 25% speed boost while in DS? We always had it and it’s not worth it. And most of the QQ is supported by proper thought through arguments, there are real necro problems from the perspective of class design. If you do not see them, then I guess you are not trying to think it through.

Gryph.8237:

Mammoth, please explain it to me, where a condition mancer who wants to get great marks and staff cooldowns needs to go into condition duration tree to augment his condition build? To me, going into spite never really helped my condition build that much, because it never did anything for a straight condition build that would argue replacing the need for the death magic tree (staff skills + toughness). I could see going slightly into spite, but not to augment duration, as I got plenty of duration, 2 fear tics, etc., without spite, and spite never increased damage that much on a condition build. now, to have a decent condition build, and want to add burning, which is a condition, you have to seriously limit death magic., aside from the fact that in pvp matches, conditions get cleansed immediately, thus duration for the sake of suvivability is a HUGE letdown.

I would ask that you point out my error, because perhaps it will make me a better player and i am not saying that in a condescending tone. Or please list a build that you think would adequately make a good condition build. Is 30/30/10 the new condition build?

I agree that the change doesn’t do enough to encourage condition necros to go into spite. It’s something though, and it’s definitely a buff for hybrids.

However, the ‘cleansed instantly’ argument is as tired as the ‘just dodge’ argument. If conditions were cleansed every 4 seconds, sure, but they’re not. If all your bleeds had 10 second base durations, sure, but they don’t. The value of condition duration is reduced by the amount of cleanses that are available, not nullified. It scales better than any other stat. That’s why it needs to be able to be mitigated by cleanses.

As an example, against a guard who is not getting cleansed by his team, any of your conditions that last less than 10 seconds are not being fully utilised. Any that last longer are inefficient. Being that scepter auto is some of the best pressure in the game against a high toughness player, especially one with protection up, and the bleeds have a 4s base duration, it’s something to think about.

PvE players are largely spoiled by their 40% duration food and have never developed a concept of the actual value of expertise. For pvp, it’s a very good stat. One that right now comes with some very bad major traits for condition builds (and even worse minors tbh), thus narrowing our build diversity. This is unquestionably a step towards addressing that.

If you want terror and master of corruption, you can still take them both. There is no need for lingering curse in pvp. Terror build should only be used in pvp and wvw. It was a valid balance change as terror in adept has always been overpowered. And focused ritual never really fit curses that well.

I like most of the changes, its opening up the viability of some good builds. Although for pve the changes weve seen so far dont affect my build at all. Which is actually quite dissapointing. I would hope power necro’s would get something to make them more viable. However i have an idea for a new DS power build, but im not sure it will out dps the current 30/30/0/0/10.

Gryph.8237:

Then they moved terror to the master slot, which makes it so you can’t take master of corruption and terror unless you kitten up your other trait choices. Why do they have to F up our builds to give us one or two other LACKLUSTER BUILDS!

godkitten you anet

This is the exact same thing they did with their Engineer and Ranger “buff” patches. I am not surprised at all. I really only hoped for Reanimator to go away.

Surely this “leaked” patch notes is a tr01lolololol….

If it isn’t, I am very pleased at the way things look for necro…only time will tell…

Curses used to be a good example of well-designed Grandmaster traits. Each choice was supported by a bonus the trait line gave you. Lingering Curse was supported by the Condition damage and Withering Precision was supported by the Precision. Smite, meanwhile, did not benefit at all from condition duration as both grandmasters were power-based.

Sadly, ANet saw fit to swap this around. Spite now has one Power option and one Condition Duration option, but Curses now has one condition damage option and one random option (as it doesn’t really get improved by the Precision anymore due to the long cooldown). Why could they have not left Withering Precision as-is?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Curses used to be a good example of well-designed Grandmaster traits. Each choice was supported by a bonus the trait line gave you. Lingering Curse was supported by the Condition damage and Withering Precision was supported by the Precision. Smite, meanwhile, did not benefit at all from condition duration as both grandmasters were power-based.

Sadly, ANet saw fit to swap this around. Spite now has one Power option and one Condition Duration option, but Curses now has one condition damage option and one random option (as it doesn’t really get improved by the Precision anymore due to the long cooldown). Why could they have not left Withering Precision as-is?

Ah yes. Why couldn’t they let us maintain a permanent damage debuff that would be more powerful than perma protection after the weakness changes in this patch?

Such a cruel world. facepalm

Honestly you guys make me shake my head. The whole point of build diversity is that you give something up to get the things you want. The reason we’ve had “the” condition build or “the” wells build up until now is that there was a limited number of traits even worth taking. Complaining that it’s hard to make a terror + burning build is ridiculous. Of course it’s hard. That’s a good build.

Besides, you don’t need 2s fears to get two terror ticks. You need any value over 1s. For sPvP these changes will split condition builds in two directions – Rampager’s and Rabid. The Rampager’s builds will be like power glass cannons, except they deal extra damage through conditions instead of critical damage. The Rabid builds should take as much access to weakness as they can, because that condition will be a strong asset to help you stay alive long enough to outlast your opponent.

tldr:
Rampager’s – Burning
Rabid – Weakness

I understand why they are nerfing withering precision. I just feel its a bit much, especially seeing as its now a 25% chance to fumble on all attacks instead of 50% on non crits. Weakness is now good at dealing with crit builds but not as effective against non crit builds/enemies. 20 second internal cooldown feels like a bit much to me as I always thought the idea of withering precision was to synergise with target the weak and boost damage, if we cant maintain decent weakness uptime that synergy is almost completely gone. 10 or 15 second internal cooldown would be better. But devs might decide to lower it in the next patch if it becomes too useless because of its cooldown.

Umm, how would it be more powerful of a dmage reduction than perma-protection? Even assuming that they left the reduction chance as-is (we know it’s being dropped lower), it’s only a 25% damage reduction. Protection is 33%.

My complaint with the change to Withering Precision’s change is that it marginalizes high precision while before the change, it rewarded high precision. Shorten the duration to bring it in line, perhaps, but don’t give it such a god awful cooldown.

Withering precision is going to be worse then burning lol. I didn’t pay much attention to it but now that I looked at it again I don’t think I can imagine any situation where I would take an on chance single target trait that doesn’t add damage and suffers in the amount of utility it provides with a CD of 20 seconds lol.

Iceflame.5024:

Withering precision is going to be worse then burning lol. I didn’t pay much attention to it but know that I looked at it again I don’t think I can imagine any situation where I would take an on chance single target trait with a CD of 20 seconds lol.

Its no longer chance on crit. If you crit you get a guaranteed 5 second weakness proc. But you then have to deal with 15 seconds without it. Its fair to have a cooldown when its guaranteed, but I dont think it should be that high for such a weak debuff (excuse the pun).

spoj.9672:

Iceflame.5024:

Withering precision is going to be worse then burning lol. I didn’t pay much attention to it but know that I looked at it again I don’t think I can imagine any situation where I would take an on chance single target trait with a CD of 20 seconds lol.

Its no longer chance on crit. If you crit you get a guaranteed 5 second weakness proc. But you then have to deal with 15 seconds without it. Its fair to have a cooldown when its guaranteed, but I dont think it should be that high for such a weak debuff (excuse the pun).

Yeah well crit is a chance in itself and new weakness isn’t going to be anything supremely effective or special. We have weakening shroud on a 15 second CD and OH dagger enfeebling blood on a ?25 second CD? and those deal damage, are AOE and apply 2 stacks of bleeds in addition while being a weapon skill and a tier 10 trait in curses. Withering precision is again a single target grandmaster 20 second CD, funny. CD needs to be around 10 or less seconds.

I wonder how many people are using the reaper’s precision trait. Does anyone here ever use it? I cannot imagine someone taking it. Why is it not getting any rework if my assumption is correct?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Curses used to be a good example of well-designed Grandmaster traits. Each choice was supported by a bonus the trait line gave you. Lingering Curse was supported by the Condition damage and Withering Precision was supported by the Precision. Smite, meanwhile, did not benefit at all from condition duration as both grandmasters were power-based.

Sadly, ANet saw fit to swap this around. Spite now has one Power option and one Condition Duration option, but Curses now has one condition damage option and one random option (as it doesn’t really get improved by the Precision anymore due to the long cooldown). Why could they have not left Withering Precision as-is?

Along the same track as these issues, dumb fire requires high crit to fire it off as soon as you can in each time window, yet spite line gives power not precision.

I use it occasionally with an axe build or in WvW when I need to build up life force on my way to an objective, but it will never be in a dungeon running build for me.

I used reapers precision when i ran 30/10/0/0/30. Because there was no other trait worth taking imo. But yeah its pretty useless for power builds seeing as they already have good lifeforce generation. I think the idea is that condition builds should use it if they want better lifeforce generation (although i think its better off being a 5pt minor in curses and giving a new adept trait which procs extra bleeds or something instead of reapers precision).

Yeah Reapers Precision is not all that useful, i tested it with my wells build on 5 golems and nah just wasn’t that worth it.