Guild Wars 2

In the last BoC podcast with Tenderly they were talking about a conversation with a dev who commented on making increased mark size standard: there’s a 90% chance it’s not going to happen. The reason for this is that there’s too much aoe in WvW/PvP already, and with the necro’s good access to aoe the staff probably won’t get this buff.

But (!!!) here’s the reason why this argument doesn’t hold up:

I think everyone agrees by now that if there’s going to be a change then the most reasonable one would be:

• increased size by default
• unblockable is combined with Staff Mastery
• Staff Mastery becomes master tier

As it is now, you either take Greater Marks or you don’t run the staff.

So would this change really improve the necro’s aoe?

Imo no, maybe even the opposite, because if this change is made then some (or even most) players wouldn’t have unblockable marks. For them it would actually be a nerf.

So the real question is: if you had 10 extra trait points that you don’t need to invest in Death Magic, would you gain more aoe if you placed them in a different line?

Considering that absolutely nobody uses the staff w/o Greater Marks, can anyone else see how larger mark size being standard would actually increase aoe? Because I can’t…

Well, you could go with a 30/10/0/0/30 build with perma critting ground targeted wells and increased dmg to all foes under 50% HP while still having a solid AoE on your staff. Just a quick example on the top of mu head, since 30/10/0/0/30 is the build I run in WvW.

I am of the opinion that this should be made, as tiny, long-cooldown marks that can be dodged through harmlessly are not really ideal.
Marks should be huge and pulse at least twice, like the ranger trap, so people can’t dodge INTO them and avoid ALL of the effects while triggering the trap harmlessly.
Then again, I run 30/30/0/10/0, with MoB on dodge, so what do I know…

Isn’t the whole “we’re going to address aoe skills” thing pretty ‘old’, while we still haven’t seen actual nerfs in this department. Hell Meteor Shower, imo the epitome of aoe skills, recently seems to have received some buffs (lowered cast time and INCREASED aoe of the individual hits).

What I’m trying to get at is this: are they even still trying to bring down aoe? Maybe they tested it and concluded that it’s actually good as it is now?

Flow, I will choose Staff Mastery over Greater Marks and, if my build does not have more than 10 points in Death Magic, then Staff Mastery wins and I just need to be more accurate with my marks. Shortened CD is nice for Putrid Mark along with the other staff skills. I really used Staff Mastery a lot when Reaper’s Mark was an interrupt for bosses.

I wish Greater Marks and Staff Mastery were combined or one of them was moved to a minor trait skill but, if I plan on using staff a lot, I put 20 into DM for both and lean toward a condition build with Epidemic. I hate to quibble too much on a topic we all seem to agree on, combining both staff traits to thin the DM tree a bit, but I do not feel like the case for always taking Greater Marks is quite that solid.

WvW and PvP condition builds certainly benefit a lot from GM due to the rampant chaos of battle but in PvE it is less necessary, though still helpful. Mainly, I would like one of them to replace Reanimator (or have PotH replace Reanimator and have GM take its place at 15) so that when I do put 20 points into DM, I can also pick another trait skill.

flow.6043:

The reason for this is that there’s too much aoe in WvW/PvP already, and with the necro’s good access to aoe the staff probably won’t get this buff.

We have good AOE because of the trait which forces us to take the trait. Without the trait, you can hardly call the staff “AOE”. Sure, it’s possible to hit more than 1 target untraited — but extremely difficult (bordering on impossible depending on the circumstances). Get rid of the trait and increase base size — then do whatever the heck you want with unblockable. The only thing that would change as a result of this is more build diversity.

Maybe they’re worried about mark of evasion with those extra 10 points? I don’t know, it doesn’t seem to make any sense.

Andlat Helsonr.1284:

Well, you could go with a 30/10/0/0/30 build with perma critting ground targeted wells and increased dmg to all foes under 50% HP while still having a solid AoE on your staff. Just a quick example on the top of mu head, since 30/10/0/0/30 is the build I run in WvW.

Yes, you could have more damage, but not more aoe.
If you want Greater Marks and Focused Rituals then you can’t have Deathly Perception and Close to Death at the same time as well.

Actually, every build using the staff would be buffed because you just freed up a mandatory trait. But the fact remains: you can’t have more aoe.

And by the way, we just got Tainted Shackles! That skill does direct+condition damage and immobilized on up to 5 targets.
Don’t get me wrong, I love that new skill, but how come we got that if we allegedly have to much aoe to warrant an increased base size for marks?

Don’t forget that placing points into non-damaging trait lines can reduce AoE dps. I see less a problem with adjusting the Death Magic line to combine the staff buffs or shift one to a minor trait if it forces the player to trim damage output.

I have long believed that the DM tree has too many attractive trait skills packed into it. The Blood Magic tree could be more attractive if healing scaled a bit better. The main problem that still remains for Necromancer is that bunkerish builds are not attractive enough. Berserker traits are too difficult to pass up because the reward for toughness and vitality traits just misses the mark. A tank build for Necromancer could be more convincing in sustain than it currently is.

I can see some argument that packing both Staff Mastery and Greater Marks into one trait would be a bit too powerful; but honestly part of the issue is that stock Staff feels so miserable without them. I’d be more than OK with a fused trait that did both at a reduced capacity if the stock staff abilities were on a slightly shorter base cool-down, as we’d also have a trait slot freed up too for more flexibility.

Doing that and addressing the issue that reanimator and protection of the horde really don’t do much of anything useful for someone trying to make a tanky build would go a long ways to helping out sustain builds.

I think that they will just make the difference between “normal” and Greater Marks less drastic.

Maybe the Marks will be 180 Size by default and Greater marks are brought down to 220 or so.
Currently it’s 120 -> 240. …double radius.
Huge size difference when used on a circle.
I’m not good at math but I think it’s something like 4 times more ground covered.

LastDay.3524:

I’m not good at math but I think it’s something like 4 times more ground covered.

Area of a circle is Pi times radius squared, so double the radius = 4 times the area.

Ohhhh ohh, there’s too much AoE in WvW?
Then kindly remove Arrow Carts and give us Greater Marks \o/ !!!

Problem Solved!!

The main problem is staff is a REALLY bad weapon untraited and turns into a godlike weapon when traited. There needs to be a CHOICE to take staff improvement traits not feel like we are forced to in order to even have a halfway decent weapon.

I really feel like increasing the base aoe by about 50% (so that traited it’s about 1/3rd larger) would solve a lot of the issues.

The reality is staff can be used as a single target weapon untraited. Is it easy when you are used to greater marks? No, but that is a skill shot (l2p) issue. If you want more AoE strength, you should have to give something up, that tradeoff right now is 10 trait points.

You get AoE by increasing the size period. It isn’t a nerf in any way, you can now put those same 10 points to having unblockable and 20% CD reduction, the same build is now stronger; or you can put them into another trait line completely. That is a buff, and not the kind of buff we need.

Arvid.3829:

Isn’t the whole “we’re going to address aoe skills” thing pretty ‘old’, while we still haven’t seen actual nerfs in this department. Hell Meteor Shower, imo the epitome of aoe skills, recently seems to have received some buffs (lowered cast time and INCREASED aoe of the individual hits).

What I’m trying to get at is this: are they even still trying to bring down aoe? Maybe they tested it and concluded that it’s actually good as it is now?

This was a PvP developer, as in sPvP (to my knowledge). So WvW comments are invalid, as that is not their area of focus. With that in mind, Meteor Storm is complete crap in PvP, as you have to complete a HUGE cast time, then pray to the RNG gods that the meteors actually hit people. Staff eles are used in the first 10 seconds of a match to get buffs, then basically never seen.

And no, AoE in PvP is still an issue, its just not an immediate one they can take care of. There needs to be a meaningful choice between doing single target damage and AoE damage, but why would I bring a burst thief, for example, when a Shatter Mesmer can do the same damage, but AoE, and bring utility like Illusion of Life and Portal?

aoe = max 5 targets
marks CD is high enough
staff auto is pure crap
once marks are i used most if not all necros swap to other weapon

Bhawb.7408:

The reality is staff can be used as a single target weapon untraited. Is it easy when you are used to greater marks? No, but that is a skill shot (l2p) issue. If you want more AoE strength, you should have to give something up, that tradeoff right now is 10 trait points.

Well let’s ask this question: If there was no greater marks trait and staff marks were the ‘standard’ size, do you think many people would consider it a viable weapon and actually use it? Probably not. If there were no greater marks trait, people would have been demanding a significant buff to the mark size from the very start, and I am sure we would have received one.

flow.6043:

In the last BoC podcast with Tenderly they were talking about a conversation with a dev who commented on making increased mark size standard: there’s a 90% chance it’s not going to happen. The reason for this is that there’s too much aoe in WvW/PvP already, and with the necro’s good access to aoe the staff probably won’t get this buff.

But (!!!) here’s the reason why this argument doesn’t hold up:

I think everyone agrees by now that if there’s going to be a change then the most reasonable one would be:

• increased size by default
• unblockable is combined with Staff Mastery
• Staff Mastery becomes master tier

As it is now, you either take Greater Marks or you don’t run the staff.

So would this change really improve the necro’s aoe?

Imo no, maybe even the opposite, because if this change is made then some (or even most) players wouldn’t have unblockable marks. For them it would actually be a nerf.

So the real question is: if you had 10 extra trait points that you don’t need to invest in Death Magic, would you gain more aoe if you placed them in a different line?

Considering that absolutely nobody uses the staff w/o Greater Marks, can anyone else see how larger mark size being standard would actually increase aoe? Because I can’t…

A change to the big aoe marks without the trait would cause the biggest anti-necro qq to date. You know why? The new build would be 30/20/0/0/20 using that extra 10 pts to get master of terror in the SR tree. Making the recent sigil of paralization nerf moot.

On that note, Anet, PLEASE PLEASE do this I want to own everyone! Fear me!

TheStarflyer.9641:

flow.6043:

In the last BoC podcast with Tenderly they were talking about a conversation with a dev who commented on making increased mark size standard: there’s a 90% chance it’s not going to happen. The reason for this is that there’s too much aoe in WvW/PvP already, and with the necro’s good access to aoe the staff probably won’t get this buff.

But (!!!) here’s the reason why this argument doesn’t hold up:

I think everyone agrees by now that if there’s going to be a change then the most reasonable one would be:

• increased size by default
• unblockable is combined with Staff Mastery
• Staff Mastery becomes master tier

As it is now, you either take Greater Marks or you don’t run the staff.

So would this change really improve the necro’s aoe?

Imo no, maybe even the opposite, because if this change is made then some (or even most) players wouldn’t have unblockable marks. For them it would actually be a nerf.

So the real question is: if you had 10 extra trait points that you don’t need to invest in Death Magic, would you gain more aoe if you placed them in a different line?

Considering that absolutely nobody uses the staff w/o Greater Marks, can anyone else see how larger mark size being standard would actually increase aoe? Because I can’t…

A change to the big aoe marks without the trait would cause the biggest anti-necro qq to date. You know why? The new build would be 30/20/0/0/20 using that extra 10 pts to get master of terror in the SR tree. Making the recent sigil of paralization nerf moot.

On that note, Anet, PLEASE PLEASE do this I want to own everyone! Fear me!

Move terror to GM

krippler.9826:

Well let’s ask this question: If there was no greater marks trait and staff marks were the ‘standard’ size, do you think many people would consider it a viable weapon and actually use it? Probably not. If there were no greater marks trait, people would have been demanding a significant buff to the mark size from the very start, and I am sure we would have received one.

I used staff for months, perfectly fine (in PvP, PvE, and WvW), without Greater Marks. I couldn’t do it now without retraining myself because I am used to being lazy with the mark size. Perception means nothing, the game cannot be balanced around what people feel, it needs to be balanced around what is actually best for balance. People might feel marks need to be larger, but if that is not the best balance option, then too bad.

Bhawb.7408:

krippler.9826:

Well let’s ask this question: If there was no greater marks trait and staff marks were the ‘standard’ size, do you think many people would consider it a viable weapon and actually use it? Probably not. If there were no greater marks trait, people would have been demanding a significant buff to the mark size from the very start, and I am sure we would have received one.

I used staff for months, perfectly fine (in PvP, PvE, and WvW), without Greater Marks. I couldn’t do it now without retraining myself because I am used to being lazy with the mark size. Perception means nothing, the game cannot be balanced around what people feel, it needs to be balanced around what is actually best for balance. People might feel marks need to be larger, but if that is not the best balance option, then too bad.

I LOL every time I see a standard mark in PvP or WvW.

Seeing someone use a small mark is like finding out they have a small thingy

WvW I agree, because AoE > everything in WvW, but this entire thing was based around the words of an sPvP developer, so WvW is essentially null (why did I bring it up? dunno).

But I used to be able to consistently enough land marks in PvP on smaller points (I side bunker, so the points are smaller), and they are no less threatening when they land, it is just down to how many you can land. I am not trying to say GM isn’t an amazing trait, because it is, but it is because of that that it is problematic to just make an amazing trait base.

Even if I have 0 points in Death Magic, I still often run with staff and here is why: I can drop 4 marks on a target pretty fast, then switch to a traited weapon and not suffer long CD on its skills. This works great in open world PvE.

In PvE dungeons, I get by with staff mastery and use traited Epidemic. It is WvW and SPvP where Greater Marks really shines but then builds tend to diverge. I would not mind if both staff traits in Death Magic were advanced up the tree to prevent an OP build but wish I only needed to use one slot. Maybe if both GM and SM were master level minor traits in DM and some other line, or if Staff Mastery were combined with the 10% power boost in Spite while GM was moved to master level.

how exatcly marks when traited wich makes them with normal size are op ?

So faster projectiles and Putrid Mark got a bug or a nurf.

Spite Master now makes you decide marks or minions or axe.

Was also a bit let down dagger mastery just got boosted to 20%, without getting Quickening Thirst thrown in.

Keep your chin up. Enough whining and it may come to pass whether its good for the game or not! :p