Guild Wars 2

To me, life force generation running greatsword felt terribly slow. Part of the problem feels like LF is generated on the third AA rather than the first. Letting GS AA for several seconds just for a couple bits of LF felt wrong.

What are your thoughts?

Yup, still very bad, it forces me to have to take Blighter’s Boon so I’m not as lifeforce starved. I’d like to try Reaper’s Onslaught but end up being lifeforce starved when using GS.

1/1/3 % can be something that isnt zero in pve, but GS is some miles and nerf to popular classes away from being used in pvp.

Dagger is 0/2/6% and attacks much faster. Greatsword should be something like 2/6/8 %

life force regen has always been pretty much terrible unless you were using a staff and soul marks. With blighters boon I find my lf regen decent now but of course im still using a staff and soul marks.

I just want to note that the lf seems to scale with your opponents meaning the full combo on 3 opponents gives 15% lf. According to the wiki the whole combo is 3 seconds long.

Now compare this to the dagger auto which gives 8% lf (doesnt scale with the numbers of opponents) per combo with a casttime of 2.1.

So i would say in aoe scenarios GS auto actually gives more lf then the dagger auto…

Greatsword is a DPS weapon while Dagger is meant for sustain. You can’t have the same life force generation on Greatsword as you can’t have the same DPS and cleave on Dagger. Yes, in the past BWE the greatsword life force generation was bad, but now it’s in a good place keeping in mind that that GS isn’t, and shouldn’t be, a dagger 2.0. Different weapons for different purposes.

Btw, if you are cleaving 3 opponents you generate more life force than with dagger, so when it does matter you get more sustain. In PvP use blighter boon, if you want better sustain choose Reaper’s sustain traits.

Muchacho.2390:

I just want to note that the lf seems to scale with your opponents meaning the full combo on 3 opponents gives 15% lf. According to the wiki the whole combo is 3 seconds long.

Now compare this to the dagger auto which gives 8% lf (doesnt scale with the numbers of opponents) per combo with a casttime of 2.1.

So i would say in aoe scenarios GS auto actually gives more lf then the dagger auto…

In sPvP it is pretty much impossible to complete a GS autoattack combo. It is too slow.

You can generate a lot of lifeforce running Reaper/Spite/X and stacking might while traited Chilling Victory and Blighter’s Boon.

But you need to hit someone with the ultra slow GS.^^ And that’s the problem.

Running Dagger/Warhorn + Staff with these two traits is insane. You can stay in RS for 80% of the match.

I’m being totally honest here but GS is terrible. I’ll use any other weapon even axe over this. The whole build is all about hopefully building enough to jump into RS then it burns super fast if you don’t time things just right. I’m bummed i really thought these boosts would have much bigger effects but hell a tempest kills us with a freaking staff and GS is a melee weapon? Maybe if your opponents are sleeping. Still wayyyyyyyyyyyy toooooo slow….. Please match speed for damage, please you got skill 1 RS right why does everything else suck so slowly hard?
It’s been 4 hours but man my hopes for PvE are dashed…why, why do we have to suck

I just watched my LF bar. Greatsword AA is actually 0% for the first two hits. Tool tip is wrong.

Anchoku.8142:

Dagger is 0/2/6% and attacks much faster. Greatsword should be something like 2/6/8 %

Thank god you’re not in charge of class balance then :P

GS needs worse LF generation than dagger, because it has other advantages.
It now deals higher burst damage and quite a lot higher sustained damage below 50%. It cleave 3-5 targets.
Basically it serves a different purpose than the dagger does. So for that reason it doesn’t need the same LF generation.

I think it’s pretty slow too, but I feel it’s a weakness the weapon needs to have. And there are ways to get LF generation through other sources (utilities / shout heal / etc) if you desperately need it; plus there is weapon swap. Swapping to Dagger/Warhorn for some quick LF generation (or maybe another combo like axe / WH for #2 + #5), is an option as well.

EDIT: Note that I’m not saying the weapon doesn’t need adjusting. I just think that it shouldn’t ever be on the level of LF generation that the dagger auto attack chain is.

Nyth.3492:

Anchoku.8142:

Dagger is 0/2/6% and attacks much faster. Greatsword should be something like 2/6/8 %

Thank god you’re not in charge of class balance then :P

GS needs worse LF generation than dagger, because it has other advantages.
It now deals higher burst damage and quite a lot higher sustained damage below 50%. It cleave 3-5 targets.
Basically it serves a different purpose than the dagger does. So for that reason it doesn’t need the same LF generation.

I think it’s pretty slow too, but I feel it’s a weakness the weapon needs to have. And there are ways to get LF generation through other sources (utilities / shout heal / etc) if you desperately need it; plus there is weapon swap. Swapping to Dagger/Warhorn for some quick LF generation (or maybe another combo like axe / WH for #2 + #5), is an option as well.

EDIT: Note that I’m not saying the weapon doesn’t need adjusting. I just think that it shouldn’t ever be on the level of LF generation that the dagger auto attack chain is.

Why not? Dagger is a crap weapon that should be revamped anyways, just because its only good thing is LF generation doesn’t mean that greatsword should have a complete lack of sustain when a double melee setup may not even be feasible in many scenarios, especially since reaper shroud is also melee range so you are bound to need some form of ranged attack given that the necromancer will never be given enough leaps/teleports to keep up with targets.

Greatsword is easier to dodge and evade. It should have more LF generation per hit because there is less certainty each hit will connect and the amount of time to complete an AA cycle is longer.

Just my opinion

GS generates more LF per second than dagger if you are cleaving 3 enemies.

Nyth.3492:

Anchoku.8142:

Dagger is 0/2/6% and attacks much faster. Greatsword should be something like 2/6/8 %

Thank god you’re not in charge of class balance then :P

GS needs worse LF generation than dagger, because it has other advantages.
It now deals higher burst damage and quite a lot higher sustained damage below 50%. It cleave 3-5 targets.
Basically it serves a different purpose than the dagger does. So for that reason it doesn’t need the same LF generation.

I think it’s pretty slow too, but I feel it’s a weakness the weapon needs to have. And there are ways to get LF generation through other sources (utilities / shout heal / etc) if you desperately need it; plus there is weapon swap. Swapping to Dagger/Warhorn for some quick LF generation (or maybe another combo like axe / WH for #2 + #5), is an option as well.

EDIT: Note that I’m not saying the weapon doesn’t need adjusting. I just think that it shouldn’t ever be on the level of LF generation that the dagger auto attack chain is.

Slow….did you say slow? Listen you’ve not tried other classes or you’re doing your very best to hide the fact that the generation is horrid and the damage is terrible. I out performed the GS with junk sigils in a scepter and focus let alone a scepter/ warhorn. It’s still horridly under powered and the only reason to use GS is if you wanted to look good, i sure as heck wouldn’t use this on Tyria.

Charblaze.6958:

GS generates more LF per second than dagger if you are cleaving 3 enemies.

And then there is warhorn we can pair the dagger with.

KrHome.1920:

Muchacho.2390:

I just want to note that the lf seems to scale with your opponents meaning the full combo on 3 opponents gives 15% lf. According to the wiki the whole combo is 3 seconds long.

Now compare this to the dagger auto which gives 8% lf (doesnt scale with the numbers of opponents) per combo with a casttime of 2.1.

So i would say in aoe scenarios GS auto actually gives more lf then the dagger auto…

In sPvP it is pretty much impossible to complete a GS autoattack combo. It is too slow.

You can generate a lot of lifeforce running Reaper/Spite/X and stacking might while traited Chilling Victory and Blighter’s Boon.

But you need to hit someone with the ultra slow GS.^^ And that’s the problem.

Running Dagger/Warhorn + Staff with these two traits is insane. You can stay in RS for 80% of the match.

I know that but the op did talk about lf generation in general.

I am fine with increasing the lf gain on the auto but i doubt that Anet then will still let it scale with opponents (which i guess is also fine).

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Nyth.3492:

Anchoku.8142:

Dagger is 0/2/6% and attacks much faster. Greatsword should be something like 2/6/8 %

Thank god you’re not in charge of class balance then :P

GS needs worse LF generation than dagger, because it has other advantages.
It now deals higher burst damage and quite a lot higher sustained damage below 50%. It cleave 3-5 targets.
Basically it serves a different purpose than the dagger does. So for that reason it doesn’t need the same LF generation.

I think it’s pretty slow too, but I feel it’s a weakness the weapon needs to have. And there are ways to get LF generation through other sources (utilities / shout heal / etc) if you desperately need it; plus there is weapon swap. Swapping to Dagger/Warhorn for some quick LF generation (or maybe another combo like axe / WH for #2 + #5), is an option as well.

EDIT: Note that I’m not saying the weapon doesn’t need adjusting. I just think that it shouldn’t ever be on the level of LF generation that the dagger auto attack chain is.

Slow….did you say slow? Listen you’ve not tried other classes or you’re doing your very best to hide the fact that the generation is horrid and the damage is terrible. I out performed the GS with junk sigils in a scepter and focus let alone a scepter/ warhorn. It’s still horridly under powered and the only reason to use GS is if you wanted to look good, i sure as heck wouldn’t use this on Tyria.

I’d argue that the reaper GS has better life force generation than anything any other class offers.

It is just a different focus. GS is not meant for dueling nor for sustain. It is meant for team fights. If you decide to jump in the middle of a team fight (what necros usually avoid) your LF will recharge faster.
This is a form of scalable defense necros were lacking, like the shouts. Necro is already good at dueling, reaper is a better team fighter but worse dueler.

GS for PVE though, due to the sheer amount of enemies hit, is fine for generation. sucks for pvp tho

Azure.8670:

GS for PVE though, due to the sheer amount of enemies hit, is fine for generation. sucks for pvp tho

It really depends. Last BWE (before they added LF on GS AA), I did play in mid all the time and my LF generation was quite high (also used the heal shout). Also, playing WvW frontline is pure happiness.
So the problem is really that GS is mechanically designed to be less efficient in 1v1 (less LF if less enemies hit), but that is also worsened by the ease to avoid being hit completely in a duel because the weapon is so slow (in a messy team fight, you will always hit something). I believe the devs did not take the last point into account in the first iteration, but they added LF on AA to make up for that.

Azure.8670:

GS for PVE though, due to the sheer amount of enemies hit, is fine for generation. sucks for pvp tho

Only open world PvE. Try a single target boss and it’s a different matter.

Life Force Generation is great with Great Sword + traits and I don’t know why any of you expect to get a full combo chain off. I am running double Great Swords in PvP, not the smartest thing to do but I am forcing it to work and taking on two to three people and coming out on top. Anticipate your enemies movements and wait for the opportune moment and Gravedigger will always hit, and GS4 is great to use right before switching in to RS for either RS2 or RS4.

Use Great Sword as you would a Staff or Utilities and you will find great success with it. It is great for setting up combos for RS, and in group fights it is pretty solid just on its own.

I think the AA could be a little faster but this weapon isn’t mean to be used like the Dagger. At launch I will probably pair it with Dagger / Warhorn but for now I am trying to squeeze the most I can out of the weapon and I am not disappointed. Unlike vanilla Necromancer, it really doesn’t matter that I start the right with 0 life force.

Schurge.5194:

I am running double Great Swords .

It’s okay, I’m impatient for HoT, too.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Charblaze.6958:

GS generates more LF per second than dagger if you are cleaving 3 enemies.

And then there is warhorn we can pair the dagger with.

And then there is GS4 and 5.

GS doesn’t exist in a vacuum. There are many means to boost LF generation if you want to use the GS as 1vs1 duel weapon.

I found the LF generation on greatsword to be quite good – but I was pretty much exclusively using it in VB open-world PvE, fighting giant groups of enemies. This is the optimal environment for greatsword. On top of that, at least part of the time I had Chilling Victory/Blighter’s Boon producing LF as well.

Numbers:

Dagger AA is 0/2/6% LF/2.1s = 3.8% LF/s. It does NOT increase if you hit more than one target. Mainhand dagger has no other LF-generating skills, but can be used with an offhand weapon. Dagger offhand has no LF-generating skill.

Warhorn offhand has one LF-generating skill, Locust Swarm. This pulses ten times with each pulse hitting up to 5 targets, generating 1.5% LF/target/pulse. This skill scales with targets hit, so it can give up to 75% of your life force in optimal situations (every pulse hitting five targets). Cooldown is 30s, for sustained LF production of 0.5-2.5% LF/s.

Focus offhand has one LF-generating skill, Reaper’s Touch. This projectile hits up to 5 times and grants 3% LF per strike. So long as there is at least two enemies (or one enemy plus one ally, such as yourself) within reasonable proximity it will bounce the full 5 times. It will occasionally fail to bounce if conditions are not right. The easiest method is to use it when the target is in melee range so that it bounces from your target to you and back repeatedly. With all 5 bounces, this skill gives 15% LF on an 18s cooldown, for sustained LF production of 0.83% LF/s.

Greatsword AA is 1/1/3% LF/3s = 1.67% LF/s. This increases if you hit multiple enemies, so it increases to 3.33% LF/s or 5% LF/s if you can consistently hit two or three foes (maximum three).

Greatsword skill 3, Death Spiral, grants 2% LF/hit/target and hits up to three targets six times. Thus it generates between 12%-36% LF on a recharge of 12s, for a sustained LF production of 1-3% LF/s.

Greatsword skill 5, Grasping Darkness, grants 4% LF/target and hits up to five targets. Thus it generates between 4-20% LF on a recharge of 30s, for a sustained LF production of 0.13-0.67% LF/s.

Under the assumption that all attacks hit, fighting a single target with dagger/(warhorn/focus) will generate 5.13% LF/s. Fighting three targets will generate 6.13% LF/s.

In the same conditions, fighting a single target with greatsword will generate 2.8% LF/s. Fighting three targets will generate 8.4% LF/s.

Son of Urza.1692:

I found the LF generation on greatsword to be quite good – but I was pretty much exclusively using it in VB open-world PvE, fighting giant groups of enemies. This is the optimal environment for greatsword. On top of that, at least part of the time I had Chilling Victory/Blighter’s Boon producing LF as well.

Yeah that’s the key difference. In PvE, mobs stick on you, you just stand there and swing away. You cleave and gain LF like crazy, so it would appear GS is a good weapon.

Unfortunately in PvP/WvW, players don’t stand there, they don’t face tank you while you swing away. They certainly don’t line up for you to cleave 3 swings. So LF regen really sucks when fighting against players using GS.

Two completely different worlds, different experiences.

gavyne.6847:

Yeah that’s the key difference. In PvE, mobs stick on you, you just stand there and swing away. You cleave and gain LF like crazy, so it would appear GS is a good weapon.

Unfortunately in PvP/WvW, players don’t stand there, they don’t face tank you while you swing away. They certainly don’t line up for you to cleave 3 swings. So LF regen really sucks when fighting against players using GS.

Two completely different worlds, different experiences.

Agreed. Not only do greatsword’s slower, more telegraphed attacks make it easier for enemy players to dodge, but on top of that, Locust Swarm gives you swiftness while applying cripple to its targets, thus enhancing your ability to stick to the target (and simultaneously continue autoattacking with your dagger).

I’m not sure what would be a good way of adjusting this discrepancy. Perhaps give Grasping Darkness more LF gain but disable scaling per target hit? That way it would work as well in duels as in mass fights. You’d still have the problem of the target trying to dodge, of course, which could be nasty on an attack with a 30s cooldown … You could also make the autoattack, say, 2-2-6 instead of 1-1-3 and similarly disable scaling with multiple targets. Hmm.

Or, you could just give up and split the skills for PvE and PvP, which honestly might be the best option.

Yep LF generation is still terrible on GS. And there is imo the problem of the reaper that taking this skill line forces you into soul reaping for soul marks and vital persistance. So you end with two traitlines for shroud skills.

You say LF generation is bad but there are already threads asking for a nerf of Reaper’s sustain. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Reapers-are-WAY-to-tanky/

LF generation was okay… what i had a lot of trouble with was simply survivability…. I agree without blighters boon Lf generation is a little low but with it you’re practically rolling in LF. With the gs though, the attack speed is slow enough that you can’t get enough siphons off to sustain unless you’re fighting 3+targets (even then, you get wrecked if you don’t have toughness). What would be nice is if they’d allow siphons to damage and (or just) heal more based on how long it took you to execute any given attack, and then increase the single target siphoning, but put a cap on the over all amount of healing you can get with one skill.

So, for instance you’d have (let’s say) one siphon deal about 100 damage and maybe 350 healing on a gs skill (because they take forever to cast) but the over all amount of healing you can get is capped at about 650 per strike, so you get more single target healing without said heals being OP against large groups of mobs. Maybe reapers just aren’t intended to be compatible with blood magic, but it seems a shame considering at least some synergy can be found between all the other trait lines.

Iam laughing at that Thread, its painfull to read… RS is so much less tanky then DS with ALL possible Boosts its still to weak and u drain so fast. Just bad players dont know what to do when they cant break our Stab and cry

Still think lf needs increased on the aa of gs with how slow it is, not everything sits still enough for us to cleave multiple targets while not interrupting the slow chain with our own dodges or other skills.

If your looking for a way to keep up life force for now just go with the healing shout it will give you plenty. I haven’t had any reason to stay out of death shroud with it

Charblaze.6958:

You say LF generation is bad but there are already threads asking for a nerf of Reaper’s sustain. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Reapers-are-WAY-to-tanky/

Dude, pls read thread titles. This thread is about LF generation from GS, the thread you mentioned is talking about something completely different.

draugris.9872:

Dude, pls read thread titles. This thread is about LF generation from GS, the thread you mentioned is talking about something completely different.

Dude, pls read the previous posts in this thread and the linked one. GS doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and if you want the DPS you have to give up something. Still you can generate more LF than dagger if you are smart enough to use the GS for it’s intended purpose: team fights. Even then you have many option to boost your LF generation with Gluttony, Soul marks, Spectral mastery, Unholy martir, Chilling victory, Blighter’s boon, Your soul is mine, Spectral armor, Spectral grasp and Spectral walk. You simply slot a trait and/or utility and you are good to go. Even base necro with D+WH has to take something to boost the LF generation, weapons are not meant to be the only source LF in a build.

Arguing that the weapon should generate all LF need in any build is dumb and in bad faith.

Charblaze.6958:

draugris.9872:

Dude, pls read thread titles. This thread is about LF generation from GS, the thread you mentioned is talking about something completely different.

Dude, pls read the previous posts in this thread and the linked one. GS doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and if you want the DPS you have to give up something.

Tell that to elementalist/PSEA warrior and sinister engineer/guardian/thief lol. They all have great damage, support, and sustain.

Anyone who thinks thieves don’t have sustain is probably a moron who hasn’t tried pistol whip spam in pve.

What is dumb is your total disconnect from how PvE actually works.

Zenith.7301:

Anyone who thinks thieves don’t have sustain is probably a moron who hasn’t tried pistol whip spam in pve.

Alternatively, Black Powder spam for trash mobs. Never get hit? Don’t mind if I do!

Anchoku.8142:

To me, life force generation running greatsword felt terribly slow. Part of the problem feels like LF is generated on the third AA rather than the first. Letting GS AA for several seconds just for a couple bits of LF felt wrong.

What are your thoughts?

In general, my experience with life force generation on any weapon that isn’t the dagger is lackluster.

You can break it down as LF per second. The GS has two skills worthy of note: Death Spiral is 1% LF per second, and the auto attack is 1.33% LF per second (should all hits connect). Add these together, and you get about 2.33% LF per second. That is per target hit, so theoretically it can be up to 7% LF per second.

Compare it to the dagger, which has an auto that grants 4% per second. That is already pretty high, but add in the focus which is a further 0.833%, or 1.07% when traited. On alternate is the warhorn, which adds 0.33% per second, but scales up to 5 targets for 1.67% per second. So basically at base, the dagger will restore 5.07% per second.

The axe gets 12% life force on an 8 second recharge, but with a 2.5 second channel this comes to 10.5 seconds per burst, which is 1.14%. Add on focus/warhorn as necessary.

The Scepter has 3% per condition on a 10 second recharge. Assuming 4 conditions, this is 1.2% per second. The scepter frequently runs with dagger off-hand, which doesn’t provide additional LF, so that is something to keep in mind.

The Staff auto has 4% on a 1.4 second attack speed, so this is a 2.8% per second, per target hit. This makes staff arguably the best LF generator… were it not for the fact that staff auto is quite horrible, in that it is unreliable and does poor damage. Of note here is Soul Marks, which is 3% per mark. Working out the recharges, this gives staff skills 2-5 a total of 1.06% per second.

So really, I’d put GS at #3 in life force generation, behind the dagger and an improperly used staff. Not counting the staff, it is the second best LF generating weapon. That is by a wide margin, though: dagger generates more than twice as much LF per second against a single target.

With the amount of times I even have to interrupt the greatsword auto against bosses or verdant brink mobs, it’s not so fun =/

draugris.9872:

Dude, pls read thread titles. This thread is about LF generation from GS

I’m sorry but that’s not how this game works.

Yes in a complete vacuum greatsword has poor LF generation.
Yes against a (mobile) single target, like a single pvp opponent, greatsword will have poor LF generation.
But that’s not how this game works.

You have to see the whole picture.
First of all there are other ways to generate LF:
1) Weapon swap to a different set (e.g. Dagger/Warhorn or Staff)
2) Traits (e.g. Chilling Force / Blighter’s Boon)
3) Utilities (basically all spectral skills, shout heal, some minion skills)

Second of all. The greatsword should NOT be the ultimate weapon for all possible situations. I look forward to swinging that thing around on my main as well, and using it where ever possible.
But please be realistic, if the GS would also have great LF generation on top of what looks to be very high burst, good sustain sub-50% HP, good AoE, good access to chill. Then the weapon will be the only option and our builds will become lackluster.

There is nothing stopping you from taking a different weapon combination with reaper spec into PvP.

Please don’t drop your sense of realism and balance; just because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Son of Urza.1692:

Under the assumption that all attacks hit, fighting a single target with dagger/(warhorn/focus) will generate 5.13% LF/s. Fighting three targets will generate 6.13% LF/s.

In the same conditions, fighting a single target with greatsword will generate 2.8% LF/s. Fighting three targets will generate 8.4% LF/s.

Thanks for the math. What about 5 targets for both? (With dagger lf not inceeasing)

Kidel.2057:

Thanks for the math. What about 5 targets for both? (With dagger lf not inceeasing)

Dagger/(Warhorn/Focus), 5 targets: 7.13% LF/s (increase only from Locust Swarm).

Greatsword, 5 targets: 8.67% LF/s (increase only from Grasping Darkness, almost negligible).

Son of Urza.1692:

Kidel.2057:

Thanks for the math. What about 5 targets for both? (With dagger lf not inceeasing)

Dagger/(Warhorn/Focus), 5 targets: 7.13% LF/s (increase only from Locust Swarm).

Greatsword, 5 targets: 8.67% LF/s (increase only from Grasping Darkness, almost negligible).

Mind if I ask how quickness would affect our LF gain? Just curious.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Mind if I ask how quickness would affect our LF gain? Just curious.

50% increased attack speed = 50% faster LF gen/sec from auto attacks.

GS is burst not dps dagger is the dps with sustain. Reapers shroud is dps

Morde.3158:

GS is burst not dps dagger is the dps with sustain. Reapers shroud is dps

GS is burst until 50% hp, then it is DPS

I think the LF generation from GS should really be buffed by a small margin, perhaps even 1-2% total across the AA chain. As it stands, unless you’ve many, many foes to clear you’ll need Dagger/[Offhand] to generate LF at any kind of rate that’s fun to play as.
Alternativly, they could speed up the AA a fair bit, which would help use the GS in the big mobs you’re supposed to be fighting, even if they lower average dps due to more hits/less interrupts. And would in turn allow the current LF gain to be improved without changing the rate per hit.