Guild Wars 2

Anet have said they want Necromancers to be a sustain class. However, our core defensive skill – DS doesn’t really fit that description.

i.e. If we are on 100hp and pop DS, sure we live for another 20 seconds in DS, but as soon as it’s over we are back on 100hp.

I suggest we need a trait to allow for some form of healing in DS.

Maybe not all healing, but perhaps allow Blood tree siphons to work during DS?

That would be a fun mechanic – popping DS and trying to do as much damage as possible to siphon back a bit of health.

Since it seems that ANet really doesn’t want to give us health siphon in DS, I have an alternate suggestion: activate the heal function button and allow it to convert life force into HP. This way, we aren’t given “unstoppable perma-healing” but rather, provided with the option of using the life force/HP that we have earned in a more flexible manner and a small rise in sustain.

You know there’s a trait which heals you when you exit DS. Amount is pretty insignificant but it does heal you.. and your minions too if you’re minion master.

I think life blast should give small amount of health per hit though. At least if you have life siphon trait. It doesn’t hit very often but that would let you gather some hp instead of immediately dying when you exit DS.

Also vitality trait which gives you regen at 90%hp could trigger when you exit DS below 25% hp instead.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Since it seems that ANet really doesn’t want to give us health siphon in DS, I have an alternate suggestion: activate the heal function button and allow it to convert life force into HP. This way, we aren’t given “unstoppable perma-healing” but rather, provided with the option of using the life force/HP that we have earned in a more flexible manner and a small rise in sustain.

alternate alternate suggestion: do away with the clunky transform mechanic altogether, and give us the DS skills as Function button skills:

f1: Life Blast (unchanged)
f2: Dark Path (unchanged)
f3:Doom (unchanged)
f4: Life Transfer: Damage nearby foes and steal their health.
f5: Tainted Shackles: (unchanged)

This would require reworking a lot of enter/exit DS transformation traits though so will likely never happen.

The base problem is that when ANet really had necro as sustain during beta, it was pretty much an uber-bunker. So they may still be talking about sustain, but they also want points to be flipping back and forth for that esport spectator excitement. And those two notions are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Overkillengine.6084:

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Since it seems that ANet really doesn’t want to give us health siphon in DS, I have an alternate suggestion: activate the heal function button and allow it to convert life force into HP. This way, we aren’t given “unstoppable perma-healing” but rather, provided with the option of using the life force/HP that we have earned in a more flexible manner and a small rise in sustain.

alternate alternate suggestion: do away with the clunky transform mechanic altogether, and give us the DS skills as Function button skills:

f1: Life Blast (unchanged)
f2: Dark Path (unchanged)
f3:Doom (unchanged)
f4: Life Transfer: Damage nearby foes and steal their health.
f5: Tainted Shackles: (unchanged)

This would require reworking a lot of enter/exit DS transformation traits though so will likely never happen.

Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with DS mode. To me, it’s not clunky at all. Actually, I kind of like it. It makes the class play differently than the others and variety of game play counts for something.

And, your suggestion brings up fundamental concerns. For example, you couldn’t leave the DS skills unchanged because they overlap/replace regular weapons skills. I mean, who would ever use staff 1 if they had unlimited access to Lifeblast?

Overkillengine.6084:

alternate alternate suggestion: do away with the clunky transform mechanic altogether, and give us the DS skills as Function button skills:

f1: Life Blast (unchanged)
f2: Dark Path (unchanged)
f3:Doom (unchanged)
f4: Life Transfer: Damage nearby foes and steal their health.
f5: Tainted Shackles: (unchanged)

Would love this as an alternate solution too.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with DS mode. To me, it’s not clunky at all. Actually, I kind of like it. It makes the class play differently than the others and variety of game play counts for something.

Yeah I quite like DS too – I just think it would work even better with some sort of life on hit type mechanic.

That way while in normal mode we lose health in combat but earn lifeforce from many of our skills… and then in DS we lose/spend our lifeforce in combat, but earn actual life from skills. Effectively, normal mode and DS mode charge each other.

Think of the beautiful symmetry!

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Overkillengine.6084:

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Since it seems that ANet really doesn’t want to give us health siphon in DS, I have an alternate suggestion: activate the heal function button and allow it to convert life force into HP. This way, we aren’t given “unstoppable perma-healing” but rather, provided with the option of using the life force/HP that we have earned in a more flexible manner and a small rise in sustain.

alternate alternate suggestion: do away with the clunky transform mechanic altogether, and give us the DS skills as Function button skills:

f1: Life Blast (unchanged)
f2: Dark Path (unchanged)
f3:Doom (unchanged)
f4: Life Transfer: Damage nearby foes and steal their health.
f5: Tainted Shackles: (unchanged)

This would require reworking a lot of enter/exit DS transformation traits though so will likely never happen.

Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with DS mode. To me, it’s not clunky at all. Actually, I kind of like it. It makes the class play differently than the others and variety of game play counts for something.

And, your suggestion brings up fundamental concerns. For example, you couldn’t leave the DS skills unchanged because they overlap/replace regular weapons skills. I mean, who would ever use staff 1 if they had unlimited access to Lifeblast?

I would. Life Blast by default does not pierce, and it consumes precious life-force I’d frankly rather save for one of the other skills especially if playing a condition spec.

Overkillengine.6084:

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Overkillengine.6084:

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Since it seems that ANet really doesn’t want to give us health siphon in DS, I have an alternate suggestion: activate the heal function button and allow it to convert life force into HP. This way, we aren’t given “unstoppable perma-healing” but rather, provided with the option of using the life force/HP that we have earned in a more flexible manner and a small rise in sustain.

alternate alternate suggestion: do away with the clunky transform mechanic altogether, and give us the DS skills as Function button skills:

f1: Life Blast (unchanged)
f2: Dark Path (unchanged)
f3:Doom (unchanged)
f4: Life Transfer: Damage nearby foes and steal their health.
f5: Tainted Shackles: (unchanged)

This would require reworking a lot of enter/exit DS transformation traits though so will likely never happen.

Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with DS mode. To me, it’s not clunky at all. Actually, I kind of like it. It makes the class play differently than the others and variety of game play counts for something.

And, your suggestion brings up fundamental concerns. For example, you couldn’t leave the DS skills unchanged because they overlap/replace regular weapons skills. I mean, who would ever use staff 1 if they had unlimited access to Lifeblast?

I would. Life Blast by default does not pierce, and it consumes precious life-force I’d frankly rather save for one of the other skills especially if playing a condition spec.

Pierce is a tier 1 skill. It’s a bargain that many necros take. And, yes, if you’re a condimancer, you’re not going to spam DS 1 because you have no power. But, there are different kinds of builds so Lifeblast spamming would need to be addressed (along with a million other issues this change would necessitate).

Healing in DS will not come to Necros as a base ability of DS.

I do believe, however, that it should be added in some form as a 30 point Blood Magic trait.

Bhawb.7408:

Healing in DS will not come to Necros as a base ability of DS.

I do believe, however, that it should be added in some form as a 30 point Blood Magic trait.

Vampiric Shroud? Allowing vampiric traits to work while in Death Shroud? While also opening up for healing from Transfusion and external sources (like Well of Blood or elementalist AOEs)?

Sounds like a interesting idea to me.

digiowl.9620:

Vampiric Shroud? Allowing vampiric traits to work while in Death Shroud? While also opening up for healing from Transfusion and external sources (like Well of Blood or elementalist AOEs)?

Sounds like a interesting idea to me.

There have been a few ideas (all only active while in DS)
1) Allow all healing to affect our normal HP pools, but at a reduced value
2) Allow all of our self-healing to affect our normal HP pools (maybe at reduced value)
3) Allow all traited siphoning to affect our normal HP pool
4) All siphoning instead heals your allies (maybe not DS only?)

Or some combination of the above.

First off, “Anet have said they want Necromancers to be a sustain class.”
They have constantly removed all our attrition. I’d really like the dev’s to say, what there current vision of the necro is, because it’s worst at sustain of any class now.

A while ago, they talked about this in a Dev Stream. From the point of view, that it annoyed others ‘wasting heals’ on a necro.
Also, our ‘heals’ from Siphons are by far the weakest of any class, with the highest cost. It seems weird they don’t work in DS. (Example, #6 Ele, Sig of Resto. 202 Heal per hit, 0.1% heal power co-efficient. Our Siphon Heal per hit – 15 trait cost, 31 Heal per hit, 0.004% heal power co-efficient.)

Almost every other “siphon” is a healing skill, however, and needs to be treated as such. The only ones that aren’t (that I can remember) are for thieves. Our siphons are not directly competing with those healing skills because, surprise, we still get a heal. Not just any heal either, we get one of the best heals in the entire game.

Not saying that our siphons are by any mean great as they are now (putting aside Vampiric Master), because they aren’t. But it isn’t fair to compare them to the healing skill “siphons”.

Well, that’s just from the view of the way it works. You hit a target, you get heals.
If were looking at it from the view of a light armor class that get’s passive heals thru traits.
Soothing Mist, 80heal per sec with a 0.5% healing power co-efficient.

Anyway, I know it’s hard to ‘compare’, as class mechanics work differently.
I know, even if siphons worked in DS, they would still be pretty weak vs other class’s. The actual main use of siphon is the added damage with power, particularly on minions.
A huge problem is 0.004% co-efficient on healing power.

I know we are terrible at bunker/sustain. Were OP vs others in same glass gear. As long as it’s 1v1, and CC isn’t involved.

As it stands, DS is far from the ‘double health pool’ that people say it is. It’s hugely problematic. Allowing healing in DS, even if reduced or even just our weak siphons, would go a long way to making it viable to use after burst damage. As it is now, group heals up, your still stuffed when DS runs out.

I feel like at least our own traits should work in death shroud, like spite 5 or the siphons. How many classes have traits that don’t synergize with the class mechanic?

Another angle to getting it to ‘balance’.

With our spect skills. They were changed to only be x% max life force per second.
A x% max life per sec heals while in DS, could work nicely.

Roe.3679:

I feel like at least our own traits should work in death shroud, like spite 5 or the siphons. How many classes have traits that don’t synergize with the class mechanic?

Could you imagine traits like:
Ranger: Do x additional damage randomly when you attack but your pet stops attacking.
Warrior: Increase damage by 10% for x second but you’re unable to use burst abilities.
Guardian: Heal with Virtue of Resolve heals twice as much, but you cannot be healed again for the next 5 seconds.

I mean essentially these are the same thing. It’s really silly that they ever thought our only defense and class mechanic would be “cool” if it didn’t accept healing. It ruins the whole idea of Blood and makes 0/0/0/30/30 build’s make no sense which is absolutely ridiculous, and causes us to work clunkily in group pvp where say, a guardian uses a cone heal, we just waste it.

If they felt healing was too strong in DS, fix out heals a bit to compensate but don’t give us a clunky mechanic and call it interesting or say its a balance issue. BALANCE IT, and let us have a non-clunky mechanic. Same with stomping. If we can already shroud stomp and it’s not game breaking… just let us do it regularly!

If we could heal ourselves while in Death Shroud, the only thing I would be missing, to have my dream-specc would be the ability to heal allies with our Siphoning abilities…

Imagine a power/crit DS build focused around siphoning health and healing yourself and allies with it… It would be like giving yourself and allies a second Regen – Amazing for any group if you ask me.

I really don’t think DS needs any heals. DS its’self is already a really powerful ability. It buys you some time and allows you to either finish your opponent, kite them (not very often, but can happen) or simply allow you to hold off to let your Heal CD lower.
It’s amazing as it is.

It would be nice to have something like “Gain Aegis when you enter death shroud and under the effect of Regeneration.” as a minor adept trait.

They should atleast rework blood fiend and Well of Blood.
As options for a main healing tool and not gimmicky secondary healing like vampiric, DS works so hard against these heals…
Putting similar restrictions on other classes would be like saying “kittenwarriors from now on you can’t heal in stances. No Adrenal Health, no healing sig, no regen if you get your fingers on it.”
Or the old ranger/engi quickness which was not really a crowd favourite.

JestersMadness.7528:

If we could heal ourselves while in Death Shroud, the only thing I would be missing, to have my dream-specc would be the ability to heal allies with our Siphoning abilities…

Imagine a power/crit DS build focused around siphoning health and healing yourself and allies with it… It would be like giving yourself and allies a second Regen – Amazing for any group if you ask me.

This would be my dream Necro too. We could finally provide group support and stop being an entirely selfish profession.

One potential solution Anet could test would be allowing healing in DS but still hiding our utility bar.
That way, the only way we could heal ourselves would be from the blood tree skills. Sure, group healing would work too – but that would just be an advantage of playing with groups.

If you take healing in DS trait in the Blood line, I think you can wait till you’re really low, pop Life Transfer and it will heal you. I’m not 100% on that but try it… could be a free 3.5k heal for you

youlostthegame.8102:

If you take healing in DS trait in the Blood line, I think you can wait till you’re really low, pop Life Transfer and it will heal you. I’m not 100% on that but try it… could be a free 3.5k heal for you

No saddly it’s only allies, i’m running the trait right now.

He’s talking about if you have Life Transfer going when DS expires. The trait tries to heal you, but can’t because you’re in DS, but if you let DS expire right as you cast it, it keeps channeling, and can then heal you (unless they fixed it).

Pretty sure that’s a bug! But in the same way that stomp+ds at the same time is a bug, both have a lot of real world test data that proves it isn’t OP at all.

As long as #6 stays locked it wouldn’t be OP, it would just make sense as to how other classes can get passive/splash heals when blocking etc. Now if we could heal with #6 in it YES, very very OP indeed. However as long as all utilities stay locked, I think healing in DS should be allowed.

Bhawb.7408:

Healing in DS will not come to Necros as a base ability of DS.

I do believe, however, that it should be added in some form as a 30 point Blood Magic trait.

We aren’t asking for a DS healing skill, or even for transfusion to heal us.

All we want is for our blood regen trait, our well of blood regen, our food, our siphons, and for heals from party members to work.

And they should. If I invest 10 points in blood, my 2 traits should work, not be blocked by my own class mechanic.

Especially since some things work in DS.

Might is absolutely fine, yet regen is not?

im fine with not being able to be healed by other people while in DS (even if it’s stupid and i think it should work at least as a reduced rate), but Lifesteal should work 100%. not as some major trait or anything like that. we already have enough vampiric traits, if more are added they should do something more original, not a near-obligatory thing that should be part of lifesteal by default.

imo it’s just bad design that a fairly big and rather unique part of the class is countered by its class mechanic.
(and technically, it’s not even healing in the first place. you dont heal your HP, you steal them, after all)

Exactly what Rashan said. If the numbers are OP with ds, tune them down a bit (but I can assure you no vampire traits are OP, MM ones are about where they ALL should be) but IF it is for whatever reason would lead a Dev to believe that, tone them down and let them heal through DS. Its absolutely clunky feeling to have heals/traits that don’t work with your class mechanic whatsoever.

I would go as far as asking for healing from other peoples too, and 100% of it. I’ve been playing mostly on my engi lately, and using a lot of water fields to heal everyone around.

It’s a shame that a necro can’t benefit from healing because he’s been focused and must stay in DS just to survive.

We are already a selfish class by not giving that much to people around, let us be able to receive help at least!

^ That’s actually a really good point.

Our class mechanic for defending is to pop DS – however when we do that, anyone else who wants to help us out actually cant.

No healing in DS not only doesn’t work with our own healing skills and talents, but everyone else’s too.

Ghostextechnica.3270:

^ That’s actually a really good point.

Our class mechanic for defending is to pop DS – however when we do that, anyone else who wants to help us out actually cant.

No healing in DS not only doesn’t work with our own healing skills and talents, but everyone else’s too.

I think this is the balance that ANet had in mind to ensure the class didn’t get a free second health bar or just give it 40,000 HP.

I think a better way of thinking about necro changes is to pretend that once any changes are made, you will be banned for life from playing the class. This removes most factors of immediate self-interest. So, the question becomes, are you willing to fight this upgraded version of the necro for the rest of your GW2 playing days without complaint? Or would you consider it too powerful?

Nagato no Kami.4980:

Ghostextechnica.3270:

^ That’s actually a really good point.

Our class mechanic for defending is to pop DS – however when we do that, anyone else who wants to help us out actually cant.

No healing in DS not only doesn’t work with our own healing skills and talents, but everyone else’s too.

I think this is the balance that ANet had in mind to ensure the class didn’t get a free second health bar or just give it 40,000 HP.

I think a better way of thinking about necro changes is to pretend that once any changes are made, you will be banned for life from playing the class. This removes most factors of immediate self-interest. So, the question becomes, are you willing to fight this upgraded version of the necro for the rest of your GW2 playing days without complaint? Or would you consider it too powerful?

I wouldnt mind getting banned for life from playing necro if the next generations wouldnt have to suffer from the gigantic failure of ds blocking heals.
No other class is getting punished this way for using its class mechanic,and we dont get any solid benefit to justify the punishment.

Sure as long as it’s a blood magic grand master. Last thing we need is conditionmancer’s (whose condition bursts has most thieves covering their groins) with good sustain.

I would love for sustain on the necromancer to get addressed but first anet has to figure out what they want to do with the class.

Monoman.2068:

Sure as long as it’s a blood magic grand master. Last thing we need is conditionmancer’s (whose condition bursts has most thieves covering their groins) with good sustain.

I would love for sustain on the necromancer to get addressed but first anet has to figure out what they want to do with the class.

It doesn’t need to be a trait. Necromancers who don’t have vamperic traits, blood fiend, etc won’t be healing in DS very much at all anyways. #6 is still locked in DS. They might get a little hp from regen (not a big deal, 150 heal ticks with condi spec?) and… what? Maybe some hp gain if someone ELSE heals them. Yeah, that should happen, hence the other person healing them o.O