How can necro be "fixed" in PvE?
As pve is currently (might change) survivability isn’t needed due to the speed at which meta builds kill things. If survivability is what we bring the viability is only there as much as the community is willing to accept it. Having a spoon is great, having a knife is helpful but when all you need is a fork suddenly the other 2 options may as well not exist.
As pve is currently (might change) survivability isn’t needed due to the speed at which meta builds kill things. If survivability is what we bring the viability is only there as much as the community is willing to accept it. Having a spoon is great, having a knife is helpful but when all you need is a fork suddenly the other 2 options may as well not exist.
Ok I really tried to explain this in my OP but I’ll try again.
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where necro damage is buffed to be top tier. It’s as good as ele damage.
Now which will you pick, the squishy ele, or the tanky necro? They both do the same damage but one of them is tankier with no drawbacks.
Survivability matters to that extent. When you have satisfied all your other needs, you will then choose whatever has the best survivability out of your currently viable options.
The way to fix Necro in PvE is to fix PvE overall. In a different PvE landscape that didn’t involve stacking, Necromancer could potentially shine a lot more. A well designed Necro, with fixes to the things we need fixed, and a better PvE that more appropriately highlights the combat in GW2 could suit Necromancers very well, the problem right now is Necro is much more focused on preventing players from reaching full power, yet most mobs ignore this.
The way to fix Necro in PvE is to fix PvE overall. In a different PvE landscape that didn’t involve stacking, Necromancer could potentially shine a lot more. A well designed Necro, with fixes to the things we need fixed, and a better PvE that more appropriately highlights the combat in GW2 could suit Necromancers very well, the problem right now is Necro is much more focused on preventing players from reaching full power, yet most mobs ignore this.
This is correct. The problem is that Necromancers are very good at a lot of things, but the things they’re very good at aren’t things that are needed in the current pve design.
To keep PvE and PvP balance, a higher damage would need to be at the cost of survivability. I think the “corruption” skills could be a good example. If you add a skill or a trait that boost your damage at the price of life force consumption or health reduction or a condition, you can keep a decent balance.
Also, a big part of PvE is not only damage but team utilities. Necro is also weak on that, but it has potential. I often cite boon corruption: imagine bosses had boons they could apply to themselves from time to time (like dredges but go deeper in the concept) which contribute to their strength, necro could then very fast not only remove a bunch of them but return them against the boss as conditions. This mechanics would favor mostly necro (but also to some extent thieves and mesmer) and make them a valuable addition.
I suspect that the new HoT PvE will have some of that, and hopefully they can add similar things to the current PvE without needing a full rework (just protection and might will do).
Already, in fractals, they announced an increase crit chance of bosses in higher level, which will make “weakness” more potent and necro is good at that.
As pve is currently (might change) survivability isn’t needed due to the speed at which meta builds kill things. If survivability is what we bring the viability is only there as much as the community is willing to accept it. Having a spoon is great, having a knife is helpful but when all you need is a fork suddenly the other 2 options may as well not exist.
Ok I really tried to explain this in my OP but I’ll try again.
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where necro damage is buffed to be top tier. It’s as good as ele damage.
Now which will you pick, the squishy ele, or the tanky necro? They both do the same damage but one of them is tankier with no drawbacks.
Survivability matters to that extent. When you have satisfied all your other needs, you will then choose whatever has the best survivability out of your currently viable options.
The elementalist, due to the support, damage and survivability with no real drawbacks. The necromancer would be squisher in practice as it has nothing to mitigate damage with besides death shroud, and Vampiric Aura isn’t very supportive on its own. So it would be better to just bring an Elementalist, Thief, Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, or Engineer.
Playable Tengu please!
As pve is currently (might change) survivability isn’t needed due to the speed at which meta builds kill things. If survivability is what we bring the viability is only there as much as the community is willing to accept it. Having a spoon is great, having a knife is helpful but when all you need is a fork suddenly the other 2 options may as well not exist.
Ok I really tried to explain this in my OP but I’ll try again.
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where necro damage is buffed to be top tier. It’s as good as ele damage.
Now which will you pick, the squishy ele, or the tanky necro? They both do the same damage but one of them is tankier with no drawbacks.
Survivability matters to that extent. When you have satisfied all your other needs, you will then choose whatever has the best survivability out of your currently viable options.
The elementalist, due to the support, damage and survivability with no real drawbacks. The necromancer would be squisher in practice as it has nothing to mitigate damage with besides death shroud, and Vampiric Aura isn’t very supportive on its own. So it would be better to just bring an Elementalist, Thief, Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, or Engineer.
Necro has by far the best survivability in PvE if built and played right. I’m not even going to explain it. If you’re not playing necro at that level you aren’t qualified to discuss it.
@Khristophoros
Well, necro has probably the best passive survivability of the game (I think even higher than warrior). But the lack of damage negation out of the dodges can be punishing. Thanks to the slow attack speed of enemies, dodges are usually enough anyway, but it is still a strong problem of necros.
Who cares if the Necro is the most survivable (it’s not, but I’ll just let you go on dreaming). The problem is the Elementalist is survivable enough. So with the Ele plenty survivable enough for all content in this game, who do you choose… the class that does 25% less damage (unless we want to realistically pretend ANet is prepared to increase Necro DPS by 25%?) or the one that does top tier damage AND provides tons of utility.
I’m also very skeptical ANet has what it takes to provide meaningful and challenging PVE content so beyond niche content designed to exploit a specific class/specialization it’s always going to come down to high DPS and utility. A game with a vital PvE system would have a scale where high DPS classes provide lower utility and lower DPS classes still got invites because of their higher group potential. Not here.
Who cares if the Necro is the most survivable (it’s not, but I’ll just let you go on dreaming). The problem is the Elementalist is survivable enough. So with the Ele plenty survivable enough for all content in this game, who do you choose… the class that does 25% less damage (unless we want to realistically pretend ANet is prepared to increase Necro DPS by 25%?) or the one that does top tier damage AND provides tons of utility.
I’m also very skeptical ANet has what it takes to provide meaningful and challenging PVE content so beyond niche content designed to exploit a specific class/specialization it’s always going to come down to high DPS and utility. A game with a vital PvE system would have a scale where high DPS classes provide lower utility and lower DPS classes still got invites because of their higher group potential. Not here.
If what you were saying was accurate we’d just have 5 ele parties for the meta.
Who cares if the Necro is the most survivable (it’s not, but I’ll just let you go on dreaming). The problem is the Elementalist is survivable enough. So with the Ele plenty survivable enough for all content in this game, who do you choose… the class that does 25% less damage (unless we want to realistically pretend ANet is prepared to increase Necro DPS by 25%?) or the one that does top tier damage AND provides tons of utility.
I’m also very skeptical ANet has what it takes to provide meaningful and challenging PVE content so beyond niche content designed to exploit a specific class/specialization it’s always going to come down to high DPS and utility. A game with a vital PvE system would have a scale where high DPS classes provide lower utility and lower DPS classes still got invites because of their higher group potential. Not here.
If what you were saying was accurate we’d just have 5 ele parties for the meta.
We don’t because Eles don’t provide ALL group utility in the game and the utility they do provide isn’t uncommon. When another class’s damage deficit is outweighed by the DPS benefit they bring to the group, you’ll get invites.
That’s the problem with Necros. Damage deficit AND utility deficit.
Easy make Dagger and GS good power dps weapons equal to other classes
necro Dagger +well has good Dps for very short time and in these few second were are close to top DPSsers
Problem is that other classes can sustain their DPS because its purely from weapons with short Cd while necro relay on DPS from Utility skills.
Giving Necro Good utility wont help because we will be ignored for our lack of DPS without Wells but now with support even if support is good we will be ignored
Necro Need to be balanced in DPS numbers and to add a few good support skills Like Spectral Wall destroy projectiles and some Shout Elite that give Quickness fury or other good stuff .
I love to play Necro and I do great with it Love doing fractals lvl 50 but its frustrating most of the time you’ll be kicked and is hard to find nice ppl who dont mind necro .
I ber this would make necro break into meta builds but it wont happen
first it might be unbalanced in PVP WvW we have great selfish sustain and if they will add and great DPS equal to other classes might be a bit OP
Oh wait there are seem classes like this Guard elem )))stil I will not hope for the best so far Reaper Looks terrible and there is no reason to think positive about it . Thi sis my POW few penny into necro balance
Who cares if the Necro is the most survivable (it’s not, but I’ll just let you go on dreaming). The problem is the Elementalist is survivable enough. So with the Ele plenty survivable enough for all content in this game, who do you choose… the class that does 25% less damage (unless we want to realistically pretend ANet is prepared to increase Necro DPS by 25%?) or the one that does top tier damage AND provides tons of utility.
I’m also very skeptical ANet has what it takes to provide meaningful and challenging PVE content so beyond niche content designed to exploit a specific class/specialization it’s always going to come down to high DPS and utility. A game with a vital PvE system would have a scale where high DPS classes provide lower utility and lower DPS classes still got invites because of their higher group potential. Not here.
If what you were saying was accurate we’d just have 5 ele parties for the meta.
We don’t because Eles don’t provide ALL group utility in the game and the utility they do provide isn’t uncommon. When another class’s damage deficit is outweighed by the DPS benefit they bring to the group, you’ll get invites.
That’s the problem with Necros. Damage deficit AND utility deficit.
Eles can blast 25 might and they can even provide group reflect with powerful auras + magnetic aura. Only thing that’s really important that they can’t do is stealth.
Who cares if the Necro is the most survivable (it’s not, but I’ll just let you go on dreaming). The problem is the Elementalist is survivable enough. So with the Ele plenty survivable enough for all content in this game, who do you choose… the class that does 25% less damage (unless we want to realistically pretend ANet is prepared to increase Necro DPS by 25%?) or the one that does top tier damage AND provides tons of utility.
I’m also very skeptical ANet has what it takes to provide meaningful and challenging PVE content so beyond niche content designed to exploit a specific class/specialization it’s always going to come down to high DPS and utility. A game with a vital PvE system would have a scale where high DPS classes provide lower utility and lower DPS classes still got invites because of their higher group potential. Not here.
If what you were saying was accurate we’d just have 5 ele parties for the meta.
We don’t because Eles don’t provide ALL group utility in the game and the utility they do provide isn’t uncommon. When another class’s damage deficit is outweighed by the DPS benefit they bring to the group, you’ll get invites.
That’s the problem with Necros. Damage deficit AND utility deficit.
Eles can blast 25 might and they can even provide group reflect with powerful auras + magnetic aura. Only thing that’s really important that they can’t do is stealth.
…
A stacking 10% damage multiplier to 5 people in the group while the class providing it does about 90% of the damage a Ele can do is worth bringing over another Ele.
A group power and ferocity buff that stacks on top of might while still providing 90% of the damage a Ele can is worth bringing over another Ele.
A group wide pulsing stability and condi cleanse on the group while doig 85% of the damage a Ele can do is worth bringing over another Ele.
The ability to bring 25 stacks of vuln while at the same time doing 75% of the damage an Ele is not worth bringing.
They don’t bring banners, Frost Spirit/Spotter, reflects, Time Warp, stealth, and I’m sure some other things.
Stealth and portal are the two most important types of utility in records. And enough reflects to deal with all encounters (can be semi done with eles). Which is why we dont have 5 ele parties. If stealth and portal wasnt so great you would have 4/5 ele parties.
Banners are nice. But if we were running 4+ eles then we wouldnt actually need warrior. Phalanx would be pointless because 4+ staff eles can sustain enough might easily even without wasting time with might prestacking. And the damage contribution banners and empower allies gives is outweighed by an extra meteor shower + glyph of storms etc. When you have 2 eles phalanx really helps. That and 2 eles is all you need to melt bosses assuming buffs are properly covered.
Currently record compositions are decided as follows: “We need 2 eles. Take a warrior as well. Can portal and timewarp save us time?” If yes take a mesmer. “Will stealth save us time?” Take engi/thief/mesmer depending on amount required and other factors. Then you have things like “will aegis and stab speed us up some more?” If yes then drop the warrior and take a guard. Or “do we actually need phalanx for fast engages?” If no then drop the warrior for an ele.
The answer is always yes to will portal and stealth speed you up. But you dont always need a thief for that. For example see latest HotW records. Eles and a mesmer are the backbones of records. The rest are interchangeable. No amount of damage will make necro one of those options unless it outclasses icebow + meteor shower + glyph of storms. But that would be beyond broken. So as Bhawb said PvE needs to change and we need some of our core issues rectified to bring us on par with other classes.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Who cares if the Necro is the most survivable (it’s not, but I’ll just let you go on dreaming). The problem is the Elementalist is survivable enough. So with the Ele plenty survivable enough for all content in this game, who do you choose… the class that does 25% less damage (unless we want to realistically pretend ANet is prepared to increase Necro DPS by 25%?) or the one that does top tier damage AND provides tons of utility.
I’m also very skeptical ANet has what it takes to provide meaningful and challenging PVE content so beyond niche content designed to exploit a specific class/specialization it’s always going to come down to high DPS and utility. A game with a vital PvE system would have a scale where high DPS classes provide lower utility and lower DPS classes still got invites because of their higher group potential. Not here.
If what you were saying was accurate we’d just have 5 ele parties for the meta.
We don’t because Eles don’t provide ALL group utility in the game and the utility they do provide isn’t uncommon. When another class’s damage deficit is outweighed by the DPS benefit they bring to the group, you’ll get invites.
That’s the problem with Necros. Damage deficit AND utility deficit.
Eles can blast 25 might and they can even provide group reflect with powerful auras + magnetic aura. Only thing that’s really important that they can’t do is stealth.
…
A stacking 10% damage multiplier to 5 people in the group while the class providing it does about 90% of the damage a Ele can do is worth bringing over another Ele.
A group power and ferocity buff that stacks on top of might while still providing 90% of the damage a Ele can is worth bringing over another Ele.
A group wide pulsing stability and condi cleanse on the group while doig 85% of the damage a Ele can do is worth bringing over another Ele.
The ability to bring 25 stacks of vuln while at the same time doing 75% of the damage an Ele is not worth bringing.
Would be if we could actually burst 25 vuln but in reality we only burst like 5-10 vuln. If the whole party was doing 25% more damage that would be worth it easily.
As pve is currently (might change) survivability isn’t needed due to the speed at which meta builds kill things. If survivability is what we bring the viability is only there as much as the community is willing to accept it. Having a spoon is great, having a knife is helpful but when all you need is a fork suddenly the other 2 options may as well not exist.
Ok I really tried to explain this in my OP but I’ll try again.
Imagine a hypothetical scenario where necro damage is buffed to be top tier. It’s as good as ele damage.
Now which will you pick, the squishy ele, or the tanky necro? They both do the same damage but one of them is tankier with no drawbacks.
Survivability matters to that extent. When you have satisfied all your other needs, you will then choose whatever has the best survivability out of your currently viable options.
The elementalist, due to the support, damage and survivability with no real drawbacks. The necromancer would be squisher in practice as it has nothing to mitigate damage with besides death shroud, and Vampiric Aura isn’t very supportive on its own. So it would be better to just bring an Elementalist, Thief, Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, or Engineer.
Necro has by far the best survivability in PvE if built and played right. I’m not even going to explain it. If you’re not playing necro at that level you aren’t qualified to discuss it.
It only has the highest passive defense, but face tanking only goes so far. Then it becomes reliant on your team members to keep you alive because a single hit will destroy death shroud and then proceed to eat the necromancer alive. It has no blocks, invulnerabilities, projectile blocks, or even vigor to help itself. It’s just a sponge. As a Mesmer, I can just use sword two and distort for two seconds, and then sword 4 if things get really bad. If by some horrible travesty, my mesmer is still in trouble, it can just blink out of the way. If it is still in trouble, I can use distortion for another 4 seconds of distortion. On top of that, it can slow down the enemies attacks while increasing my own attacks. And if there is projectiles, just throw up a feedback or a focus four. And that is just on a meta build, fully investing in defense would make it harder to crack open than a fortress.
Meanwhile, Necromancer’s active defense is Warhorn four, Plague two, Well of Darkness, and Staff five. And none of those are going to save you against a boss unless you strip away all their defiance stacks. The rest of Necromancer’s defense is based on reducing the damage taken, and slowly healing back up, which A-Net decided it’s best to make as difficult as possible in Death Shroud.
So in a nutshell, Necromancers are more forgiving, but not the most survivable profession. Though I will give it credit where credit is due for being able to survive Jade Maw’s fail condition by having enough HP to tank it out.
Playable Tengu please!
(edited by Esorono.1039)
I think OP is making things more complicated than they need to be.
When people suggest these small and simple changes it’s because they are just that – simple. I think most people know that won’t completely fix the problem, but it will make our situation a lot better with only small tweaks.
The necromancer does not need to be the king of DPS, but right now an elementalist or engi can deal almost twice the damage as us and provide a lot more utility for the party. Even in a scenario where necro had elementalist level of DPS it would still not be taken because it doesn’t buff the party, however it would not be as big of a handicap and as a result it would not be as frowned upon as it is now.
As for utility, I really don’t think small overlaps is that big of an issue. I don’t think anyone want necro to completely take over another profession’s role. The problem is when a class becomes so dominant that it overshadows most other classes (~cough~ elementalist ~cough~). The problem right now as is that we really have nothing worthwhile that we excel at in PvE
In the end I think we need a balanced combination of this. Projectile blocks, finishers and damage modifiers would go a long way to prevent necro from being a dead weight to a party without completely overshadowing other classes. We don’t even need elementalist level DPS, but we need to at least be on par with what most other classes are capable of in terms of damage.
This is what I’d consider the baseline needs a necromancer has in the current state of PvE, and it will also be useful in future and hopefully more necro friendly iterations of PvE.
[qT] Necro main.
No amount of damage will make necro one of those options unless it outclasses icebow + meteor shower + glyph of storms. But that would be beyond broken. So as Bhawb said PvE needs to change and we need some of our core issues rectified to bring us on par with other classes.
I also think a nerf to elementalist DPS would make a lot of sense… They are currently the single top profession in all game modes. They were designed as squishy powerful, but they are squishy only in terms of passive defense, not active defense. So they end up being bunkers in PvP while keeping a rather strong DPS. There are basically always 2-3 elementalist in top PvE and PvP teams, OUT OF 5 PEOPLE!!!!
Yeah the problem is they have to be very careful with that. People will be outraged and they will destroy something thats fun about ele. And in PvE its only meteor shower and ice storm that are broken for damage. Glyph of storms is an elite level utility but its not broken. Its better than pretty much all elites and regular utilities in the game.
Yeah the problem is they have to be very careful with that. People will be outraged and they will destroy something thats fun about ele. And in PvE its only meteor shower and ice storm that are broken for damage. Glyph of storms is an elite level utility but its not broken. Its better than pretty much all elites and regular utilities in the game.
Yes, I think the nerf should be subtle and well-directed and not a massacre like a-net has done sometimes (I can give some recent examples for the mesmer).
I think another problem is that the low passive sustain makes the class a bit punishing for beginners. Since a-net is balancing not only for the top tier but for everyone (which makes sense) it is even more difficult to deal with the elementalist.
Frankly the only balanced way I can see them fixing necro is to
1: Rework how life force is generated (make it more like adrenaline, where it gains on every hit with bonus on death).
2: Make it so life force goes back to a moderate 50 ish % out of combat.
3: Change shroud number 1-5 into F1-F5 skills that each consume life force.
F1 could be a 3 hit volley of life force energy with each hit doing about 35-45% of what life blast currently does. It would have a cast time of 1 second and consume X life force. (the changes further down would make necro defense more active & less passive so the increase to offense is balanced)
F2 would be more or less the same as it is now, except faster. Would also consume life force.
F3 would be more or less the same as is now but consume life force.
F4 would be a combination of the current life transfer and tainted shackles.
It would siphon health from nearby enemies to heal the necro and nearby allies for a small amount.
Each hit would also apply bleeding with the final hit doing an immobilize.
It would consume a static amount of life force per pulse with a total of 8 pulses.
F5 would be a channeled ability that consumes life force to act as a block effect.
F5 would have a moderate-low CD but a hefty life force cost per second.
After that they could look at adding some real support & adjusting the necro’s various weapons to be better at support, defense, or damage.
(edited by Ragnar the Rock.3174)