Guild Wars 2

I’m not trolling, I tried the profession over this BWE3 and found it really fun. Not a great fan of GS, but absolutely loved reaper shroud. The animations, the skills, all just amazing.

That being said, although I managed some nice damage and in solo PvE most things melted, I noticed a big part of this was the fact I had 25 might stacks and enemy had 25 vuln. When I compare the dps to something like Herald/Shiro, (assuming 25 might/vuln), the dps seems quite a bit lower.

I think Knox did the math a while ago for sword dps on shiro for rev’s (basically quickness is a huge dps boost) and here’s a graph of it: http://i.imgur.com/4fyoFWV.png

Basically, the average meta dps is around the 10k/s mark. Staff Ele’s had huge bursts (obviously these are lower now because of ice bow nerfs) of 22k in <10s fights but averaged out to 19k. Heralds in full zerk are around the 18-19k mark. Condi engie’s are around this figure too with optimal rotation.

One big thing reaper has going for it is the fact in RS you can get 100% crit rate so can spec for builds with low to no precision. Thus can take some more tanky stats. Depending on how raids go, that could be very important.

My question is as the title says, has anyone done the math or have some evidence to show approx what dps Reapers have and where they currently fit. I don;t mind people giving commentary/ opinions, just don;t flame. I simply ask out of curiosity as I’m trying to decide what specialisation I like the most – currently torn between reaper, herald and druid. PvE takes most of my limited time and I’d like to raid so I just was hoping someone could help.

In one of the other threads I approximated that reaper dps in optimal situations sub 50% mob health comes out to 17.6k (and it is approximate, add a significant margin either side), not done the above 50% calculations yet but i’m expecting it to be between 2/3 and 3/5’s of the sub 50%. I don’t think that dps is going to be too big a deal, but the issue of necros not giving much back to the group that is currently useful (and not filled adequately by a class that is bringing other things alongside it, i know we stack lots of vulnerability and can boon strip, but vulnerability gets passively applied by enough classes that it should be covered, and your already bringing a mesmer or two for alacrity so boon stripping is covered there) is still there. The encounters are not there currently to force the breakup of the current optimal template for group content clearing.

Onerios.4962:

In one of the other threads I approximated that reaper dps in optimal situations sub 50% mob health comes out to 17.6k (and it is approximate, add a significant margin either side), not done the above 50% calculations yet but i’m expecting it to be between 2/3 and 3/5’s of the sub 50%. I don’t think that dps is going to be too big a deal, but the issue of necros not giving much back to the group that is currently useful (and not filled adequately by a class that is bringing other things alongside it, i know we stack lots of vulnerability and can boon strip, but vulnerability gets passively applied by enough classes that it should be covered, and your already bringing a mesmer or two for alacrity so boon stripping is covered there) is still there. The encounters are not there currently to force the breakup of the current optimal template for group content clearing.

That’s interesting, what’s the best traits (i assume spite/soul reaping/reaper), weapons and rotation you found? Also, I agree Reaper’s don;t bring huge amounts to the table in terms of support, but I just wanted an idea and from your number’s they in the 14k/dps range which is above quite a few classes. Do you have any math, not that I don;t believe you, it’s just nice to confirm/ vid/ screenshots etc.

I also wanted to know how much of that dps is from Reaper Shroud, because if you spend a lot of time in it then survivability can be a plus point. Dead/ downed dps = 0 dps ;p

I guess reaper dps would get a boost from power/ferocity/condi stats if they ever released that set. Anyways thanks for the post. If anyone agrees/ disagrees with this post please feel to comment, the more people who can verify this the better.

Sub 50% dps is essentially gravedigger spam with the power wells and nightfall threaded in off cooldown since they do close to its damage but on a much shorter cast time, entering into reapers shroud is a dps loss in that situation, the only possible exception could be casting 5 on a sub 25 health target. The approximation was based off of a video from the vale guardian raid, they were running spite/blood/reaper there, and that’s probably whats going to stick, vampiric aura is the only unique group dps boost that necros provide, so while you may take a couple of % hit compared to soul reaping sub 50% the other group members more then make up for it, and the additional sustain could be handy. Not willing to speculate on the rest without running a proper trial, only did the first bit because too many people were chucking round accusations without really providing any evidence either way.

Not enough would be my answer.

Sub 50% we’re actually not doing bad. But that’s only 50% of the fight (duh).
If we do 18k dps sub-50% and 10k dps above 50%. Our total dps would still only be like 13k dps (assuming the sub-50% portion of the fight lasts shorter since everyone’s dps is higher due to cooldowns and execute phases).

13k DPS would be about 2/3rd of the top DPS classes.

If you figure that on top of that DPS they also bring boons, support, control and other stuff to the raid; where a necromancer really brings nothing out of the ordinary (other than maybe Vampiric Aura as Onerios mentioned).
Ye I’m not too optimistic yet.

The problem here is obviously with the core of necromancer. We shouldn’t buff reaper shroud or greatsword, because that would just funnel everything into reaper more so than already happens.

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

Atherakhia.4086:

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

Actually, GS auto has higher power scaling, so theoretically, you could be doing higher DPS if you’re hitting with it (but, yeah…. hitting with it…..)

Atherakhia.4086:

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

^ This is what I was hoping to see, or something along this line. If someone does have the math/ does it, I’d love it if you could share to with the community.

@ Nyth, I’m literally a noob when it comes to necro, really only played this weekend because lots of people recommended it. However, the top dps (ele, condi engi and rev) are kinda outliers cos there’s a gap down to what looks like the reaper range 13-14k. There isn;t anything really in the 14-18k range.

If 13-14k is correct, then reaper would be amongst the highest of the second tier physical dps, but on par/ maybe slightly weaker than the condi specs found here – I need to find the tables lol. That’s higher than (PS) war’s and ranger (power).

But I totally agree, necro’s generally don;t bring much to the table while a phalanx war for instance is 25 might, banners etc all round.

The reason I want to know the numbers is more to do with my prev experience with mmo’s (namely my first). I roled a dragoon when ff xi first came out because of the purple armor and cute dragon. Well, I struggled to get it to max level then I found out it was a dud, dps was low, dragon was a liability etc. Reaper gives me that fun feeling but at the same time, being useful also makes me happy when I play the game. I just want as much information as to make an informed decision on where reaper stands.

Thanks for all the info so far.

Vydahr.4285:

Atherakhia.4086:

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

Actually, GS auto has higher power scaling, so theoretically, you could be doing higher DPS if you’re hitting with it (but, yeah…. hitting with it…..)

It’s true, Greatsword has higher coefficients so each attack hits harder. But remember there’s a time component in there too. So while each hit is harder, you hit far less often over time.

For example:

Dagger:
Attack 1: 0.9
Attack 2: 0.7
Attack 3: 1.2
TOTAL COEFF: 2.8
Time: 2.1s
DPS: 1.33

Greatsword:
Attack 1: 1.0
Attack 2: 1.2
Attack 3: 1.4
TOTAL COEFF: 3.6
Time: 3.0s
DPS: 1.2

That’s a difference of ~10% in favor of dagger.

The reason for the difference in +-50% dps rests quite heavily on close to death, above 50% necro has between 1.05 and 1.1025 damage multiplication, while below its 1.26 to1.323, so the difference of gravedigger spam is multiplied. The maths was definitely a hack (watched the video, worked out how much gravedigger was hitting for, then worked out how many casts you get off in a time frame and translated other skills into gravediggers), but that’s because I’m being lazy and know that DnT et Al have better tools and an interest in refining it. Like, i don’t know if they were in full ascended gear, full exotic, a mix, but some numbers at least give us something to talk about.

I’ll have a poke at it tomorrow, got some recordings of the cast times for greatsword auto so should be able to mock up something. On the dagger dps rotation, we can replace the second swing of the chain once every 30 seconds with locust swarm to get a rough guide of its proper output, 1.33*30 is 39.9, drop 0.7 and add in 2 (horn5 hits 10 times, wiki says that it does .2 per hit), gives you 41.2, 41.2/30 is 1.37333 (and so on), so lets say that its 1.37.

Onerios.4962:

The reason for the difference in +-50% dps rests quite heavily on close to death, above 50% necro has between 1.05 and 1.1025 damage multiplication, while below its 1.26 to1.323, so the difference of gravedigger spam is multiplied. The maths was definitely a hack (watched the video, worked out how much gravedigger was hitting for, then worked out how many casts you get off in a time frame and translated other skills into gravediggers), but that’s because I’m being lazy and know that DnT et Al have better tools and an interest in refining it. Like, i don’t know if they were in full ascended gear, full exotic, a mix, but some numbers at least give us something to talk about.

I’ll have a poke at it tomorrow, got some recordings of the cast times for greatsword auto so should be able to mock up something.

That would be nice. Just to let you know, he was full ascended and this was his build:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAodRn0ICV2gt0AO2Ac4gFcBbKL0EWCxXxvYZEaAEAaBA-ThRBABXt/o8DP9BacKAA4JAQp6PmpEEA-e

Atherakhia.4086:

Vydahr.4285:

Atherakhia.4086:

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

Actually, GS auto has higher power scaling, so theoretically, you could be doing higher DPS if you’re hitting with it (but, yeah…. hitting with it…..)

It’s true, Greatsword has higher coefficients so each attack hits harder. But remember there’s a time component in there too. So while each hit is harder, you hit far less often over time.

For example:

Dagger:
Attack 1: 0.9
Attack 2: 0.7
Attack 3: 1.2
TOTAL COEFF: 2.8
Time: 2.1s
DPS: 1.33

Greatsword:
Attack 1: 1.0
Attack 2: 1.2
Attack 3: 1.4
TOTAL COEFF: 3.6
Time: 3.0s
DPS: 1.2

That’s a difference of ~10% in favor of dagger.

In best scenario, though, GS wins. Because 1.33 × 2 (max dagger targets) = 2.66 dps, whereas 1.2 × 3 (gs max targets) = 3.6 dps

So, yeah. Right situation, GS hits like a kitten truck and does better dps in a group of enemies by far (not to mention all the skills are AoE, not just the AA)

Atherakhia.4086:

Vydahr.4285:

Atherakhia.4086:

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

Actually, GS auto has higher power scaling, so theoretically, you could be doing higher DPS if you’re hitting with it (but, yeah…. hitting with it…..)

It’s true, Greatsword has higher coefficients so each attack hits harder. But remember there’s a time component in there too. So while each hit is harder, you hit far less often over time.

For example:

Dagger:
Attack 1: 0.9
Attack 2: 0.7
Attack 3: 1.2
TOTAL COEFF: 2.8
Time: 2.1s
DPS: 1.33

Greatsword:
Attack 1: 1.0
Attack 2: 1.2
Attack 3: 1.4
TOTAL COEFF: 3.6
Time: 3.0s
DPS: 1.2

That’s a difference of ~10% in favor of dagger.

Doesn’t greatsword do about 10%~ more due to 2h weapon damage is higher?

Yes, if you’re in a situation where you’re always hitting 3 targets instead of 2 you’ll be doing better DPS. But the majority of content in this game is you hitting a single target. Even the new raid encounters were largely single target encounters, right?

Warscythes.9307:

Atherakhia.4086:

Vydahr.4285:

Atherakhia.4086:

I’m not sure the sub 50% theory is even true. Gravedigger alone only does 15% more damage than dagger auto attack does. Dagger auto does 10% more damage than greatsword auto attack but also gives you access to horn off hand which effectively makes it a wash.

So that means you’ll be dagger auto with locust for the first 50% and swap to gravedigger for the remaining 50%? If you chose to go reaper at all?

Has anyone bothered to plot any of this in excel?

Actually, GS auto has higher power scaling, so theoretically, you could be doing higher DPS if you’re hitting with it (but, yeah…. hitting with it…..)

It’s true, Greatsword has higher coefficients so each attack hits harder. But remember there’s a time component in there too. So while each hit is harder, you hit far less often over time.

For example:

Dagger:
Attack 1: 0.9
Attack 2: 0.7
Attack 3: 1.2
TOTAL COEFF: 2.8
Time: 2.1s
DPS: 1.33

Greatsword:
Attack 1: 1.0
Attack 2: 1.2
Attack 3: 1.4
TOTAL COEFF: 3.6
Time: 3.0s
DPS: 1.2

That’s a difference of ~10% in favor of dagger.

Doesn’t greatsword do about 10%~ more due to 2h weapon damage is higher?

Yes, you’re correct. 10% more in fact. But like I said, I did this math in 5 seconds. If someone wants to actually chart this stuff out I’m willing to help. But I’m not convinced reaper pulls away from base necro at a large enough rate to place it above the other classes it wasn’t already above.

Honestly I am too lazy to do the math, but I wouldn’t be surprised if greatsword auto does similar damage compared to dagger when above 50%.

However if this true, it essentially allows the reaper to stick just to gs only for damage. Before I believe the best dps weapon sets was essentially dagger spam->gravedigger when below 50 which means your weapon sets were locked to gs and dagger/warhorn for the most part.

This allow weapons sets like axe to be considered taking for the boon strip on blue and ranged damage when standing on the field.

Warscythes.9307:

Honestly I am too lazy to do the math, but I wouldn’t be surprised if greatsword auto does similar damage compared to dagger when above 50%.

However if this true, it essentially allows the reaper to stick just to gs only for damage. Before I believe the best dps weapon sets was essentially dagger spam->gravedigger when below 50 which means your weapon sets were locked to gs and dagger/warhorn for the most part.

This allow weapons sets like axe to be considered taking for the boon strip on blue and ranged damage when standing on the field.

Well dagger has the benefit of providing off-hand options. Locust Swarm for example is something like .66 DPS base which brings dagger up to 2.0. Gravedigger spam at 50% and below is only 1.5.

But again, this is me doing math quickly.

Greatsword also has nightfall though.

Locust is 610 with 2.0 power cof, 20 sec downtime

Nightfall is 1128 with with 2.8 power cof, 17 sec downtime, also provides dark field which can proc leeching bolts for a bit of extra damage. GS might actually win here if you can land the full duration.

Also no problem about the quick math, I am not trying to be vindictive or insulting. I am a fairly reasonable guy.

Wait actually, am I reading these numbers on the wiki wrong. When they say is 61(0.2), that is per tick not the entire damage duration right?

I’ve actually done some math, and can share my results here I suppose.

First off, my calculations apply for solo situations only. Also disclaimer: they are definitely wrong right now but are nonetheless a good approximation to get an idea of the numbers. Here is a link to the album of my calcs: http://imgur.com/a/B17C7

So first, several assumptions I make:
1. I assume 25 might and 25 vulnerability for all reaper shroud attacks – In here, I am trying to find long run DPS, that is, the sustained DPS once reaper has been attacking for longer than about 15 seconds. It only takes about 8-9 seconds for reaper to fully buff itself and debuff its enemy, so I ignored ramp up time in my calculation and just assumed a long run case where we’ve been attacking and now we’re fully buffed.
2. I spend equal amounts of time above 50% life force and below 50% life force, and the enemy spends equal amounts of time above 50% hp and below 50% hp. Thus I assume that Close to Death is a flat 10% modifier and Strength of Undeath is a flat 2.5% modifier.
3. Because I am assuming a long run scenario, the same amount of burn stacks tick for each second.
4. The damage coefficients I am using are .58, .58, 1.161 for the RS chain and 2.91 for gravedigger (these might be wrong, especially gravedigger).
5. The rotation I test is RS autoattack until 50%, and then gravedigger spam. For builds that rely more on conditions, I just assume RS autoattack.
6. The build I test is spite/soul reaping/reaper, with spiteful talisman, rending shroud, close to death, unyielding blast, dhuumfire, decimate defenses, and onslaught.
7. I assume full buffs for gravedigger (though this is unrealistic)

Known errors:
1. I apply 10% Close to Death bonus to both RS and gravedigger, where as it should apply 0% to RS and 20% to gravedigger.
2. My sigil of air calcs are just totally wrong. How much damage itself should be okay, but my assumptions about how often they trigger are just wrong.

So there’s a bunch of stuff for me to fix still, and my spreadsheet is honestly a mess right now, though you’re welcome to take a look at the images. RS DPS calculates the DPS of RS autoattack. The number next to RS + GD calculates the DPS of RS autoattack and then gravedigger spam.

As a cursory and very very rough estimate so far, reaper DPS in a SOLO situation with ascended gear and NO FOOD is:

~ 8500 (Berserker – Reaper Shroud autoattack until 50% hp, then Gravedigger spam)
~ 8400 (Sinister – Reaper Shroud autoattack)

Note that I assume the full buffs for gravedigger, so the actual number is definitely lower. Also note that for practical purposes, you may not be in RS 100% of the time, and so this would lower the estimated DPS for the sinister build.

So yea, my final estimating puts Reaper DPS at about 8500 solo. If I were to guess, I’d say that at max, with banners, spotter, frost spirit, empower allies, fury, food, all that stuff, the number wouldn’t go any higher than 10k – 12k, assuming an absolutely perfect scenario.

As far as feel is concerned I’m not worried. I usually start a fight in GS,432 swap dagger locust, then what I’m curious about is dagger VS RS, with dhuum you can get a nice steady 700-1k extra damage every second from burning even in full zerk. I’m wondering if that’s worthwhile. But either way I’ve been popping locust and daggering away, then back to GS hit my big skills again and off to RS till 50% come out and GD spam+Wells+Nightfall and depending on vuln hitting the 3 as well.

Can’t say from an empirical standpoint that I have any complaints. I’m curious if people have worked up more optimal rotations and done the math.

I’m primarily a pvp player and I have never done nor seen anyone ever hit for 20k+ with a reaper in 3 betas.

punahou.3986:

I’m primarily a pvp player and I have never done nor seen anyone ever hit for 20k+ with a reaper in 3 betas.

Hitting high with GD takes many things. First maximizing your own damage variables with the multipliers you can get plus Might/food/whatever. Then also having a lower toughness enemy with max vuln. Not something you’re going to get often in a PVP situation. And with that animation time you’re a fool to let someone one shot you if you’re playing glassier

punahou.3986:

I’m primarily a pvp player and I have never done nor seen anyone ever hit for 20k+ with a reaper in 3 betas.

PvP stats are lower in general, we are talking about PvE here. I don’t think gravedigger goes above 15k in a best case scenario.

Not that anybody actually takes greatsword of course.

some guy posted this in a current thread:

“Gravedigger spam from what I saw does at least 20k DPS. 32k crits every 1,25 sec =25,6k DPS , I dont know the aftercast animation times. Add to this Nightfall+Wells+Whirl Finisher.

Back to engineers : 4k burn ticks, 4k bleed ticks, 1k poison ticks, 5k direct dps =14K DPS without Sinister Set

I dont know what you guys are talking about…Reaper Meta incomming? I have no time to calculate the numbers in the beta , others will do it for you."

punahou.3986:

some guy posted this in a current thread:

“Gravedigger spam from what I saw does at least 20k DPS. 32k crits every 1,25 sec =25,6k DPS , I dont know the aftercast animation times. Add to this Nightfall+Wells+Whirl Finisher.

Back to engineers : 4k burn ticks, 4k bleed ticks, 1k poison ticks, 5k direct dps =14K DPS without Sinister Set

I dont know what you guys are talking about…Reaper Meta incomming? I have no time to calculate the numbers in the beta , others will do it for you."

Reaper Meta isn’t coming, Reaper allowing Necros to be valuable members of the team, absolutely.

Pretty sure it’s at least a .25 aftercast. So cut that down to 20kish, but I saw a 33k crit in the LoD raid video

He max at 40k hits I believe but that is under max setup.

Onerios.4962:

In one of the other threads I approximated that reaper dps in optimal situations sub 50% mob health comes out to 17.6k (and it is approximate, add a significant margin either side), not done the above 50% calculations yet but i’m expecting it to be between 2/3 and 3/5’s of the sub 50%. I don’t think that dps is going to be too big a deal, but the issue of necros not giving much back to the group that is currently useful (and not filled adequately by a class that is bringing other things alongside it, i know we stack lots of vulnerability and can boon strip, but vulnerability gets passively applied by enough classes that it should be covered, and your already bringing a mesmer or two for alacrity so boon stripping is covered there) is still there. The encounters are not there currently to force the breakup of the current optimal template for group content clearing.

Considering I’m seeing 25-30k GD’s, combine with Mesmer quickness you are doing this every 0.625s those numbers don’t add up at all.

Drekor.5217:

Onerios.4962:

In one of the other threads I approximated that reaper dps in optimal situations sub 50% mob health comes out to 17.6k (and it is approximate, add a significant margin either side), not done the above 50% calculations yet but i’m expecting it to be between 2/3 and 3/5’s of the sub 50%. I don’t think that dps is going to be too big a deal, but the issue of necros not giving much back to the group that is currently useful (and not filled adequately by a class that is bringing other things alongside it, i know we stack lots of vulnerability and can boon strip, but vulnerability gets passively applied by enough classes that it should be covered, and your already bringing a mesmer or two for alacrity so boon stripping is covered there) is still there. The encounters are not there currently to force the breakup of the current optimal template for group content clearing.

Considering I’m seeing 25-30k GD’s, combine with Mesmer quickness you are doing this every 0.625s those numbers don’t add up at all.

Because you are thinking about quickness all wrong. There is a difference between reducing something by 50% and doing something 50% faster.

Quickness only reduces cast time by 33%.

doesnt matter. seriously, even of reaper isnt the highest damage spec, it will live longer than guardians revs and wars, while maintaining really good damage. number crunchers will appear, but, reaper is awesome.

Why should a reaper live longer then a warrior?
Warriors have more endurance, better healskills, more armor and much more active migation on their weapons.

And RS is a dps loss, so undogdeable dmg will lower necro dps even more.

Depending on our support reapers/necro have to be one of the highest dps classes ingame to get a useful place in raids and highlvl fractals.
And we don´t do it yet.

A buff is needed, and some adjustment to our rotations too.

GS3 is useless in pve partys and gravediggerspam below 50% looks silly, and is simply silly. If they change it, they have to buff other things even more.

And we need it, at least for pve only. Warrior Axe 5 does 50% more dmg in pvp….so why we can´t do 30% more dmg in pve (the number is just for example)?

chunx.9521:

I’ve actually done some math, and can share my results here I suppose.

First off, my calculations apply for solo situations only. Also disclaimer: they are definitely wrong right now but are nonetheless a good approximation to get an idea of the numbers. Here is a link to the album of my calcs: http://imgur.com/a/B17C7

So first, several assumptions I make:
1. I assume 25 might and 25 vulnerability for all reaper shroud attacks – In here, I am trying to find long run DPS, that is, the sustained DPS once reaper has been attacking for longer than about 15 seconds. It only takes about 8-9 seconds for reaper to fully buff itself and debuff its enemy, so I ignored ramp up time in my calculation and just assumed a long run case where we’ve been attacking and now we’re fully buffed.
2. I spend equal amounts of time above 50% life force and below 50% life force, and the enemy spends equal amounts of time above 50% hp and below 50% hp. Thus I assume that Close to Death is a flat 10% modifier and Strength of Undeath is a flat 2.5% modifier.
3. Because I am assuming a long run scenario, the same amount of burn stacks tick for each second.
4. The damage coefficients I am using are .58, .58, 1.161 for the RS chain and 2.91 for gravedigger (these might be wrong, especially gravedigger).
5. The rotation I test is RS autoattack until 50%, and then gravedigger spam. For builds that rely more on conditions, I just assume RS autoattack.
6. The build I test is spite/soul reaping/reaper, with spiteful talisman, rending shroud, close to death, unyielding blast, dhuumfire, decimate defenses, and onslaught.
7. I assume full buffs for gravedigger (though this is unrealistic)

Known errors:
1. I apply 10% Close to Death bonus to both RS and gravedigger, where as it should apply 0% to RS and 20% to gravedigger.
2. My sigil of air calcs are just totally wrong. How much damage itself should be okay, but my assumptions about how often they trigger are just wrong.

So there’s a bunch of stuff for me to fix still, and my spreadsheet is honestly a mess right now, though you’re welcome to take a look at the images. RS DPS calculates the DPS of RS autoattack. The number next to RS + GD calculates the DPS of RS autoattack and then gravedigger spam.

As a cursory and very very rough estimate so far, reaper DPS in a SOLO situation with ascended gear and NO FOOD is:

~ 8500 (Berserker – Reaper Shroud autoattack until 50% hp, then Gravedigger spam)
~ 8400 (Sinister – Reaper Shroud autoattack)

Note that I assume the full buffs for gravedigger, so the actual number is definitely lower. Also note that for practical purposes, you may not be in RS 100% of the time, and so this would lower the estimated DPS for the sinister build.

So yea, my final estimating puts Reaper DPS at about 8500 solo. If I were to guess, I’d say that at max, with banners, spotter, frost spirit, empower allies, fury, food, all that stuff, the number wouldn’t go any higher than 10k – 12k, assuming an absolutely perfect scenario.

Thanks, this is really useful. What were you performing the test on, heavy armour golems?

However, from what I’ve been reading, RS auto is weaker than dagger AA (even if you factor in the 15% attack speed trait). I guess Dhuumfire with the might would add extra dps which may cancel this out, not sure. RS 5 might also be a dps boost, not sure. So was wondering if you had any numbers for dagger AA (with warhorn 5) or GS AA above 50% or GS 2 below 50% mixed in with RS 5 below 25%? That to me seems like the max dps output, what do you think?

I’ll check over the numbers when I get some time but thanks for the info.

Norjena.5172:

Why should a reaper live longer then a warrior?
Warriors have more endurance, better healskills, more armor and much more active migation on their weapons.

And RS is a dps loss, so undogdeable dmg will lower necro dps even more.

Depending on our support reapers/necro have to be one of the highest dps classes ingame to get a useful place in raids and highlvl fractals.
And we don´t do it yet.

A buff is needed, and some adjustment to our rotations too.

GS3 is useless in pve partys and gravediggerspam below 50% looks silly, and is simply silly. If they change it, they have to buff other things even more.

And we need it, at least for pve only. Warrior Axe 5 does 50% more dmg in pvp….so why we can´t do 30% more dmg in pve (the number is just for example)?

Agree with this, Rev’s too are probably the most tanky class in the game (they can get 90-95% damage mitigation and easily a consistent 50% with 0 toughness).

I don;t want to detract from the main topic though and in another thread I see Reaper is 14-15k/s. Not saying this can’t be true, but some of that is relying on quickness (only Rev’s/ classes which have reasonable access to quickness can count quickness uptime as many parties may not have a mesmer or guardian so don;t think Reaper dps should factor this in).

Currently, taking all the info so far, Math wise it has it at the 10-12k range but I’m not sure if Chunx’s dps rotation was optimal. Either way, Reaper’s seem to be in the lower end of the top tier, better than power necro but below thieves even if you count some of the higher estimates.

The tiers for previous dps (arbitrary ones, but I use them for reference), low = <8k/s (meta value is 10s, the 8k/s refers to real situations), mid = 8-10k (meta 10-12k), high = >10k (meta values here are >14k). However, since the condi change, the high tier has a very wide spread of up to 19-20k/s now. So even though Reaper dps is in the meta tier, it appears it’s not going to challenge at the top end but may challeng the middle of this tier i.e. thieves/ condi rangers. Happy to be shown some proof I’m wrong, actually would love proof.

Hopefully other people will add to this thread, constructive only please and preferably with some evidence but all constructive comments are welcome.

Right now, it appears Reaper’s will be a decent dps addition but only bring limited support.

Forum error swallowed post, so will just type out conclusions. Same sort of rough maths as before so don’t go waving it in anyone’s faces as proof.

+ 50% pure greatsword rotation: 1.465 per second
-50% pure greatsword rotation: 1.747 per second
Dagger auto + horn5 (no wells): 1.373 per second
Shroud auto chain: 0.93 per second (which is understandable when you consider that it can solo max might and vulnerability against a lot of things)

Wells add roughly 0.15, so dagger/horn does beat out greatsword over 50% by a bit, so there is probably some sort of optimal dagger/horn/greatsword/shroud rotation that you can do, although you are obviously trading off the utility of a second weapon set for it, so it may not be practical.

BTW, this is a good thing that there is not to great a margin between the two, it means that you can go and fix base necros issues without worrying about sending reaper into overdrive.

Oh yeh, should probably add in the % damage modifiers, going to assume that we are taking blood/spite/reaper.

For above 50% its 1.05, below its 1.26 (remember they multiply), which gives you 1.538 for greatsword above 50, 2.201 for greatsword below 50. Dagger becomes (with wells crudely added) 1.599 above 50 and 1.919 below 50.

For comparision, sub 50% on a fire/air/arcane ele with 3 boons, fireball/lavafont does about 2.168 per seconds. Obviously add in the rest of the rotation/stat conversions/condition procs and it gets better, but gravedigger lets us make up for lower % modifiers with substantially greater base coefficients.

Blood vamp procs add about 100 hp per swing. Dagger swings about once every half second while warhorn procs once every three seconds, so about 2.33 per second, wells push that up to about 2.6 per second. Greatsword is harder because there are more different swing times, but three procs every two seconds is not unreasonable.

chunx.9521:

I’ve actually done some math, and can share my results here I suppose.

First off, my calculations apply for solo situations only. Also disclaimer: they are definitely wrong right now but are nonetheless a good approximation to get an idea of the numbers. Here is a link to the album of my calcs: http://imgur.com/a/B17C7

Am I reading the charts wrong or do the calcs with Sinister and celestial not show sigil and rune effects? Also why does valkyrie not have Burning. Even with zero condition damage on armour it can tick for 1.5k+ which does add up.

Interesting stats on the armour runes. I’ve been thinking about using Flame legion over my current strength runes and this seems to justify that. My reasoning being that it’s 7% damage up time should be up pretty much all the time even if you are not applying burning your self, plus the extended burn duration adds 1-2 stacks to what you can maintain in shrouds. A win win in both cases.

Maybe there should be a trait, that turns the power from necro’s produced might in ferocity and spreads them to allys near him like PS warrior… That would makes reaper/necro unique to other classes and will support the group that much… Just an idea!

Terra.8571:

snip

Narenek.9085:

snip

So a few clarifications:
1. For celestial and sinister, I used superior runes of Balthazar as I found that they were better than flame legion for builds that more emphasized conditions damage . That’s why a rune modifier is missing for those calcs. For Valkyrie I assumed the use of death perception instead of dhuumfire as you really need that 50% crit if you’re not getting it from your armor.
2. The burning damage underneath each of the attacks is NOT the amount of the burning tick. Those are the burning damage applied per attack, and since each attack is faster than a second, the actually burning ticks are higher than those listed.
3. I have to emphasize again that I assumed a solo situation. Therefore, because RS buffs you, the DPS from it is higher than dagger auto. If you are in a party, and they can provide full vuln and might, then dagger is preferable.

Also, further disclaimer about optimal group damage with max buffs, I have no idea what the mac DPS is and was basically just randomly guessing in my last post.

Onerios.4962:

Forum error swallowed post, so will just type out conclusions. Same sort of rough maths as before so don’t go waving it in anyone’s faces as proof.

+ 50% pure greatsword rotation: 1.465 per second
-50% pure greatsword rotation: 1.747 per second
Dagger auto + horn5 (no wells): 1.373 per second
Shroud auto chain: 0.93 per second (which is understandable when you consider that it can solo max might and vulnerability against a lot of things)

Wells add roughly 0.15, so dagger/horn does beat out greatsword over 50% by a bit, so there is probably some sort of optimal dagger/horn/greatsword/shroud rotation that you can do, although you are obviously trading off the utility of a second weapon set for it, so it may not be practical.

BTW, this is a good thing that there is not to great a margin between the two, it means that you can go and fix base necros issues without worrying about sending reaper into overdrive.

That’s my thought, I want to see a rotation and how that works out. The numbers that are thrown around on the forums are not basic singular weapon damages. They’er full rotations.

I’m curious what we can hit with an optimal rotation.

My thought was something like GS 432 → Dagger → Locust if horn or focus4 → auto till weapon swap up, → GS 432 → RS (not sure if any skills here are higher damage?) → drop when dagger ready, rinse/repeat until 50% and can go GD/Well/Nightfall spamming.

With that you get your dagger but then you can get your harder hitting GS skills in too and mitigate the GS auto’s lower damage with RS.

I imagine some kind of rotation like that would be optimal… but hey maybe just sticking to dagger is better? who knows till the math is done I will say the vuln application could be very useful with a full rotation in a group that lacks full uptime).