Guild Wars 2

Alter E here,

Been a long time Necro since beta, and I must say the patch just OPed us and I don’t like its impact on the game.

Anyone who’s done any quality Tpvp knows that Necro’s didn’t need much of a damage buff, and main issue was mobility/ways to escape focus fire before they had a decent stock of Life Force.

I think allowing for their spectral armor to remain on in Spectral walk and Armor and if equiped with a Flesh Wurm/New Spectral Wall allows for plenty of escapes and time for your team to focus some of them down (yes you have to play smart and position well!!).

1. I would recommend making the new necro apply the immobilize instantly at the start for 1 second only, giving the kiting time the class needs, then move into applying the condition.

However Necro’s got a huge dps buff with Burning. Over a 30 second fight (which is pretty standard) if equiped with a pretty standard 20% increase in condition runes, a necro will have 6 seconds of burning which equals, four applications for a total of 24×600ish damage = 14.4k additional damage!!!!!!!

Did someone make a math error in their programming? This needs a major adjustment.

2. I recommend changing this to more fight power builds/hybrids and add to necro’s team flavor.

I’d bring the apply the condition every 4 seconds and bring burning down to 1 second and apply 4 stacks of vulnerability for 8 seconds. This would still give a very generous 4-5K damage boost (for condition specs) over 30 seconds +vulnerability which will add up for power necro’s and the team. (this also helps prevent bleeds from getting stripped, which has always been a necro problem).

Also I’d say AXE still needs a damage adjust. I really couldn’t see any imbalance in giving it an additional 15-20% damage increase on its standard attack and lowering the cast time of the aoe attack so its worth casting.

I play PvE necro so I disagree w/ this. We’ve needed buffs for a long time and you’re already complaining.

/No, just no.

You made a math error. Over a 30s fight you’ll get 3 procs. You could get 4 in 30.5s if you had 100% crit and were super awesome (lucky) with your attack timing, but it will take another 6 seconds for the burning to tick.

Dhuumfire is a very big increase though, you’re right. It increases my auto by about 18%, and scepter auto was already very good.

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Mammoth.1975:

You made a math error. Over a 30s fight you’ll get 3 procs. You could get 4 in 30.5s if you had 100% crit and were super awesome (lucky) with your attack timing, but it will take another 6 seconds for the burning to tick.

Dhuumfire is a very big increase though, you’re right. It increases my auto by about 18%, and scepter auto was already very good.

At 1’sec for 6 sec. Fire, At 10’sec 6 sec, at 20 sec for 6 sec, at 30’s for 6’s = 4 seperate operations of Fire stackingx24 ticks

Zenyoga.6910:

Mammoth.1975:

You made a math error. Over a 30s fight you’ll get 3 procs. You could get 4 in 30.5s if you had 100% crit and were super awesome (lucky) with your attack timing, but it will take another 6 seconds for the burning to tick.

Dhuumfire is a very big increase though, you’re right. It increases my auto by about 18%, and scepter auto was already very good.

At 1’sec for 6 sec. Fire, At 10’sec 6 sec, at 20 sec for 6 sec, at 30’s for 6’s = 4 seperate operations of Fire stackingx24 ticks

Did you not read what I posted?

If you want real figures, assume 50% crit for fast dhuumfire procs.

On average, ~1.2s for first proc.
Second at 12.7s.
Third at 24.2s.
Fourth at 35.7s.
6 seconds to tick.

41.7 seconds to get your 14.4k damage. You get 3 procs in 30s, and the damage from them has ticked out. 18s of burning, not 24. About 360 dps.

Yobculture.5786:

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Which is horrible balance… being forced to kill a tank first is just bad. Glass cannon nukers are supposed to be top priority to kill in any game, but condition necros put out so much pressure even with tank stats that they need to be dealt with immediately.

Jabberwock.9014:

Yobculture.5786:

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Which is horrible balance… being forced to kill a tank first is just bad. Glass cannon nukers are supposed to be top priority to kill in any game, but condition necros put out so much pressure even with tank stats that they need to be dealt with immediately.

A tank necro doesn’t have dhuumfire.

Man this is awkward. I think the buffs were too much, but everyone else who does seems to be a kittening idiot.

Necros naturally have highest hp in game, a second health bar (with ridiculous sustain from spectral armor), and can take amulets with defensive stats since condition damage only relies on one stat. If that’s not tanky I don’t know what is.

Mammoth.1975:

Jabberwock.9014:

Yobculture.5786:

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Which is horrible balance… being forced to kill a tank first is just bad. Glass cannon nukers are supposed to be top priority to kill in any game, but condition necros put out so much pressure even with tank stats that they need to be dealt with immediately.

A tank necro doesn’t have dhuumfire.

Man this is awkward. I think the buffs were too much, but everyone who else who does seems to be a kittening idiot.

You do realize that you don’t have to spec for Curses to be effective at conditions anymore, right? 30/10/20/10/0, Rabid Amulet, Undead Runes, and defensive utilities. The burn does most of the work, you don’t need terror with our already massive access to other conditions. You can simply play a more effective Engineer.

Im still not sold on this… Isn’t it suppose to be life lovers like ele’s and guards that burn, and were all death N cold?

Why’s wasn’t it put on top of Pre/Con tree as it’s cond dam on crit?

Ohh were warloc’s now and it’s a powerful hot dot…. Apples, apples for sale. Nothing to see here!

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mammoth.1975:

Jabberwock.9014:

Yobculture.5786:

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Which is horrible balance… being forced to kill a tank first is just bad. Glass cannon nukers are supposed to be top priority to kill in any game, but condition necros put out so much pressure even with tank stats that they need to be dealt with immediately.

A tank necro doesn’t have dhuumfire.

Man this is awkward. I think the buffs were too much, but everyone who else who does seems to be a kittening idiot.

You do realize that you don’t have to spec for Curses to be effective at conditions anymore, right? 30/10/20/10/0, Rabid Amulet, Undead Runes, and defensive utilities. The burn does most of the work, you don’t need terror with our already massive access to other conditions. You can simply play a more effective Engineer.

Yeah, that looks pretty tanky. Against bunkers. Plus, dhuumfire on that build is worth about 275 dps, so I sure hope it’s not doing most of the work, because a real tank necro outheals that with staff 2.

Let’s keep the build discussion to your build thread.

Mammoth.1975:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mammoth.1975:

Jabberwock.9014:

Yobculture.5786:

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Which is horrible balance… being forced to kill a tank first is just bad. Glass cannon nukers are supposed to be top priority to kill in any game, but condition necros put out so much pressure even with tank stats that they need to be dealt with immediately.

A tank necro doesn’t have dhuumfire.

Man this is awkward. I think the buffs were too much, but everyone who else who does seems to be a kittening idiot.

You do realize that you don’t have to spec for Curses to be effective at conditions anymore, right? 30/10/20/10/0, Rabid Amulet, Undead Runes, and defensive utilities. The burn does most of the work, you don’t need terror with our already massive access to other conditions. You can simply play a more effective Engineer.

Yeah, that looks pretty tanky. Against bunkers. Plus, dhuumfire on that build is worth about 275 dps, so I sure hope it’s not doing most of the work, because a real tank necro outheals that with staff 2.

Let’s keep the build discussion to your build thread.

275 DPS?… I don’t even know how to get a burn to do that little damage on a pure power build.

Way to lie and show your lack of knowledge of Necro.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mammoth.1975:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mammoth.1975:

Jabberwock.9014:

Yobculture.5786:

At least Necros aren’t going to be killed last anymore.

We’ll get the honours of being killed first.

Which is horrible balance… being forced to kill a tank first is just bad. Glass cannon nukers are supposed to be top priority to kill in any game, but condition necros put out so much pressure even with tank stats that they need to be dealt with immediately.

A tank necro doesn’t have dhuumfire.

Man this is awkward. I think the buffs were too much, but everyone who else who does seems to be a kittening idiot.

You do realize that you don’t have to spec for Curses to be effective at conditions anymore, right? 30/10/20/10/0, Rabid Amulet, Undead Runes, and defensive utilities. The burn does most of the work, you don’t need terror with our already massive access to other conditions. You can simply play a more effective Engineer.

Yeah, that looks pretty tanky. Against bunkers. Plus, dhuumfire on that build is worth about 275 dps, so I sure hope it’s not doing most of the work, because a real tank necro outheals that with staff 2.

Let’s keep the build discussion to your build thread.

275 DPS?… I don’t even know how to get a burn to do that little damage on a pure power build.

Way to lie and show your lack of knowledge of Necro.

Sorry I forgot you have 100% uptime with your 30% condition duration.

imo : change burning to 3 stacks of torment
move Terror to GM trait.

Silver.9084:

imo : change burning to 3 stacks of torment
move Terror to GM trait.

Why? Terror wasn’t OP before the patch. Terror actually got nerfed and was moved from adept to master this patch. Making it grandmaster when terror was never complained about before is just people failing to adapt. Besides, it won’t change anything. The build everyone is complaining about is the 30/30/10 build. Moving terror to GM wouldn’t change a single thing.

I’ve been pushing for axe to be restored back to its old beta speed for awhile. The no pause between channeling makes a huge difference.

Either that or a new idea to make the axe auto deal AoE damage in a small acute cone much like the guardian sword. Both warrior and ranger axe can AoE with auto, I don’t see why necro gets left out on this one.

Don’t really think you are hitting the core problem. I think realistically if they had left everything alone, longer doom + new condition and immobilize would have still made people cry nerf. The burning is very strong yes, but I don’t think that adjustment is going to fix things. I for one would be about in the same place, as with 100% duration its a 2 second burn with 40% uptime more or less

Also if you nerf dumbfire, people will just avoid spite all together. It is only a matter of time before people realize how much they hurt themselves in sustain by not taking soul marks, or by not taking advantage of the extra long fear durations with master of terror.

You could REMOVE entirely burning from necro, and people would still not be happy. I dare say at this point you could remove buring, and revert doom, and people would still cry foul.

As a condition necro I was happy with just the new condition…. everything else was just a buff… a big buff.. OP or not, in the future they need to be smarter about releasing a patch like this one, instead of their normal slow and steady approach.

my burn hits for 830+ with blood is power and 25 stacks of corruption. thats ALOT of dmg when you take into account terror (maybe ticking at 1400+) and 10-20 stacks of bleed at 140+ a tick.

scary dmg. is fine in pve but maybe too much in pvp wvw. time will tell.

like rennoko says, taking 30/30/xxx is a risky build to run and hopefully people will adapt and learn to use more defensive abilities rather than pure dmg. it doesn’t take skill to stack burning and 10 bleeds on a target, which it should considering the dmg it does.

Engineers get the same Burning as a Major trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder
…On the trait tree involving Grenades!

I don’t think that nerfing Dhuumfire as an effect is the right way to go.
It was meant for Hybrid builds, not as something every Terror build uses.

If it becomes a problem move it into a trait position that’s really bad for Terror builds.
Blood Magic for example is great for Dagger/Dagger hybrids and awful for Terror builds.

Edit2: Or even better.
Split the Damage component of Fear so that half comes from Terror and Half from Master of Terror.
With 20 in Curses, 10 in Death Magic and 20 in Soul Reaping you wouldn’t have the 30 points for Dhuumfire.
You could skip Greater Marks for it, but eh. :P

Edit: Lol I said “Major” instead of “Adept”. /facepalm Oh well, it’s both.

Incendiary powder is an adept trait….. lol
For real guys let it settle in a bit before you go nuts. The other classes have things that can combat the increase to our Condi. They just hadn’t had to run, those builds/utilities before. Honestly the new meta build is no different from any other glass cannon builds, just focus them down like you did before. However I do see a Condi nerf coming in the future, before they do that they have to give ds more sustain or necro will be right back to being a laughing stock.

Condition damage can be removed before it damages. A big hitting skill that can be mitigated by up to 90% by the foe (or his teammates) isn’t overpowered. Making assessments about the balance of a skill by assuming that the target of the skill won’t apply a counter-skill is a bit naive.

We got more solo power (not really needed, terror and minions already cover that), balls deep terror necros got buffs (again pretty strange but whatever), hybrids stayed the same (loss of either terror or burning, doesnt matter damage same as before), tanks got buffed if they are on second fight (s-armor, etc), but total possible LF generation changed (soul marks sharing now slot with good stuff), but noone of peeling problems got fixed, DS 5 is dodged 99% of the time at the end cast because of giant screaming circle of doom, its not instant so in the cases where its needed (cced-dogpiled into haggis) you cannot cast it, condition pressure is still strong vs a necro.
Right now we got the damage of beta necros but dont have the solutions/tank power so the damage is useless since you are gonna get focused in pvp either way and for pve… meh nothing really changed except that knights got dropped for valkyre gear.

I do not agree with the whole point made here by the op.

We got some sustained damage over time. Whoopee doo.

There are still other classes that have far more access to high damage, burst, and sustain. We we just brought up to a respectable level.

Would I trade a bit less damage for more get away choices and anti CC abilities; the answer is yes, but Anet clearly stated they were not going to move us in that direction.

I will take the extra damage as a result.

I don’t play sPvP, or tPvP very much, so my opinions on the matter are more from a WvW and the occasional PvE point of view.

Like the poster above me said. There is going to be a learning curve for some players. Necros are not an afterthought any longer and the rest of the classes are going to have to learn how to deal with some newer things.

I have had to adjust my Necro builds plenty of times since launch in order to deal with the other class adjustments, it is pleasantly euphoric to know some other classes have to do that same for us for a change.

Necros are not OP.
Call me out when the top teams start wanting Necros instead of Guardians, Mesmers, and Eles, then we can talk.

Bull Zooker.1672:

my burn hits for 830+ with blood is power and 25 stacks of corruption. thats ALOT of dmg when you take into account terror (maybe ticking at 1400+) and 10-20 stacks of bleed at 140+ a tick.

scary dmg. is fine in pve but maybe too much in pvp wvw. time will tell.

So I think that upfront, this seems like a lot of damage. The thing is:

A) It depends on you having 25 stacks and BiP. If these aren’t up, the damage is considerably less; I’m guesstimating say 10% less. But OK, let’s go with your numbers.
B) It depends on you having burning + 10 bleeds on the target. So there is some lead in time until you can do your terror burst. How much might be some debate.
C) Figure (generously) that you get 3 ticks of fear, this puts staff and DS 3 on cooldown. Per tick, you get 1400 + 1400 + 830 = 3630 damage. Over the three ticks, you get 10900ish damage. I guess that’s maybe enough to deal with a glass build in berserker gear. If you have 20 bleed stacks, you get about 15000 damage, but you might need a lot of lead in time.
D) The above might be a lot of damage, but I think we all know other burst builds can do comparable things.
E) The above damage doesn’t depend on burning as much as you might think; without it you get about 9k / 13500k damage. In other words – the burning has only very marginally changed what you were capable of pre-patch.
F) If the target runs Melandru, the terror burst will probably be reduced to two ticks. One might say something like “who runs Melandru,” but I’d argue that other GC burst builds have forced people to make heavy investments in toughness / vitality or pay a price; why should this be any different?

If my math is wrong, please feel free to correct.

Also – kudos to Mammoth with a nice explanation of burning procs vs dps.

Berner.7289:

Condition damage can be removed before it damages. A big hitting skill that can be mitigated by up to 90% by the foe (or his teammates) isn’t overpowered. Making assessments about the balance of a skill by assuming that the target of the skill won’t apply a counter-skill is a bit naive.

This is so correct.

To tout DOT’s to the greatest amount of damage that can be done and call for a nerf is totally absurd. If someone dies to DOT’s in this game they really deserve to die every single time for not having condition removal of any sort. I am so sorry that certain specs of classes can be burned down due to changes in the game, but you really need to leave your pity party and respec and adjust your gameplay like everyone else will have to do at some point in this game’s evolution.

Doom Fear duration under 100-200 range 1,5 sec.

Remove Burn and give us Torment on crit or so.

Fellow necro aren’t happy killin’ stuff ? I’m more than ok with our damage now, in wvw, but we aren’t op. Try to play a condition spec engi, and you’ll see what op means….

How to balance necro ? Remove the cooldown on dhuumfire, as 100% to burn for 4 seconds on crit. That would be faire for a grand master trait !

Blake.2973:

Fellow necro aren’t happy killin’ stuff ? I’m more than ok with our damage now, in wvw, but we aren’t op. Try to play a condition spec engi, and you’ll see what op means….

How to balance necro ? Remove the cooldown on dhuumfire, as 100% to burn for 4 seconds on crit. That would be faire for a grand master trait !

You are so incredibly wrong it hurts me to contemplate how wrong you are.

chefdiablo.6791:

Necros are not OP.
Call me out when the top teams start wanting Necros instead of Guardians, Mesmers, and Eles, then we can talk.

They already are, dude. Symbolic and Xeph (ranked #2 and #4 on EU) have both stated that Necros are OP.

In its current state I’d guess a well played full necro team could absolutely steam roll just about any other team comp lol

infantrydiv.1620:

In its current state I’d guess a well played full necro team could absolutely steam roll just about any other team comp lol

Been there, done that. The teachers of my Necro school and I got together, played around 14 matches, didn’t lose a single one.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

infantrydiv.1620:

In its current state I’d guess a well played full necro team could absolutely steam roll just about any other team comp lol

Been there, done that. The teachers of my Necro school and I got together, played around 14 matches, didn’t lose a single one.

In…the 60% bracket.
[ ] Relevance in establishing credibility in tpvp

Zzod.5791:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

infantrydiv.1620:

In its current state I’d guess a well played full necro team could absolutely steam roll just about any other team comp lol

Been there, done that. The teachers of my Necro school and I got together, played around 14 matches, didn’t lose a single one.

In…the 60% bracket.
[ ] Relevance in establishing credibility in tpvp

Zzod.5791:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

infantrydiv.1620:

In its current state I’d guess a well played full necro team could absolutely steam roll just about any other team comp lol

Been there, done that. The teachers of my Necro school and I got together, played around 14 matches, didn’t lose a single one.

In…the 60% bracket.
[ ] Relevance in establishing credibility in tpvp

I solo join 80% of my matches. If you actually use that as a test of skill/competence, I suppose your opinion is about as useful as a crumpled tissue.

What does the fact that you usually solo join have to do with queuing a team into the 60% bracket and being surprised that you win?

Why do you think solo join is an excuse for 60%?

Why don’t you stop solo queueing and get some rating so you know what competitive tournament play looks like before sharing your opinions on competitive tournament play?

Why aren’t teams falling over themselves to get you to queue with them?

Mammoth.1975:

What does the fact that you usually solo join have to do with queuing a team into the 60% bracket and being surprised that you win?

Why do you think solo join is an excuse for 60%?

Why don’t you stop solo queueing and get some rating so you know what competitive tournament play looks like before sharing your opinions on competitive tournament play?

Why aren’t teams falling over themselves to get you to queue with them?

Perhaps you should learn to play before you share an opinion about learning to play. Because we all know I only kill bad players, infact I’ve never ever ever seen a good player before.

No really, so far all you have done is try to discredit me. It’s amusing. Keep going.

You should seriously consider what your answers to those questions might be. For your own sake.

Mammoth.1975:

You should seriously consider what your answers to those questions might be. For your own sake.

You should seriously consider why I should seriously bother caring about what you’re saying. You’re obviously nothing more than an elitist with nothing going for him. I help the community and you snub your nose at me. What have you done? Nothing.

I play competitively, and I have played competitively, not just on this game, either. I don’t care about playing in a ‘top’ team. I don’t care about ‘top’ players. You’re not even a ‘top’ player yourself, so why should I care about your opinion, by your logic. Infact, some of the top players barely even know their own class.

All I see is that you got P/O’d at me and are now struggling to discredit me to the last of your ability. Bravo.

So……. much……. feeding…….

Question #3 for example. If you were at least rank 200 or something, you’d get a lot less people disagreeing with you. Of course that’s mainly because you’d stop posting such crap if you’d played somewhat competitively, but that’s besides the point. Why not give it a shot? Should be easy for you since you know so much more about necro than those nasty elitist top players.

Mammoth.1975:

Question #3 for example. If you were at least rank 200 or something, you’d get a lot less people disagreeing with you. Of course that’s mainly because you’d stop posting such crap if you’d played somewhat competitively, but that’s besides the point. Why not give it a shot? Should be easy for you since you know so much more about necro than those nasty elitist top players.

I’m not interested in putting together a team of semi-competent players to play consistently against bad pugs to get a few wins on a crappy leaderboard system where players that are inactive have higher ranks than you. The people that disagree with me based on rank are ignorant.

Also, you think burn hits for 275 with a Rabid Amulet (See above posts), so I stopped taking you seriously quite some time ago.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mammoth.1975:

Question #3 for example. If you were at least rank 200 or something, you’d get a lot less people disagreeing with you. Of course that’s mainly because you’d stop posting such crap if you’d played somewhat competitively, but that’s besides the point. Why not give it a shot? Should be easy for you since you know so much more about necro than those nasty elitist top players.

I’m not interested in putting together a team of semi-competent players to play consistently against bad pugs to get a few wins on a crappy leaderboard system where players that are inactive have higher ranks than you.

Also, you think burn hits for 275 with a Rabid Amulet (See above posts), so I stopped taking you seriously quite some time ago.

Because I’m inactive too. When I played seriously I was top 100, as you’d know if you weren’t so new it hurts. Lately I’ve been introducing myself to pve and wvw, and I freely admit I’m a total noob in those areas.

Mammoth.1975:

Because I’m inactive too. When I played seriously I was top 100, as you’d know if you weren’t so new it hurts.

“30/10/20/10/0 Rabid Amulet = Burn 275”

You should sign up for my Necro school, I’ll gladly help you.

You still didn’t grasp the concept of uptime? The difference between damage per second and damage per tick on a five second burn that is on a minimum ten second cooldown?

Mammoth.1975:

You still didn’t grasp the concept of uptime? The difference between damage per second and damage per tick on a five second burn that is on a minimum ten second cooldown?

So, you’re going to tell me, that a build is bad, because of the application of the burn being 4 seconds on a 10 second CD.

Someone buff Engineers, they’re unviable.

You’re still wrong, by the way.

I told you what the builds burning is worth in terms of dps. Why are you so upset about that?

Mammoth.1975:

I told you what the builds burning is worth in terms of dps. Why are you so upset about that?

I’m not upset. You seem to credit everything to how something appears on paper from a first glance. That’s an impressive skill. Must be why you probably thought Necro was UP prepatch.

Tell you what, since it’s not every day I get to fight alongside an absolute living LEGEND rank 100 such as yourself, when I get on tomorrow, I’ll invite you to a tourney group, and you can show the entire Necro school your l33t skillz.

Yeah, I enjoy playing with kittens, I’ll be there for sure o.0

Mammoth.1975:

Yeah, I enjoy playing with kittens, I’ll be there for sure o.0

I’ll bet. You can show off your amazing 30/30/10/0/0 build no one has heard about until now. I might even see if some of the cross guild teachers want to see the best Necro performance ever.

Question 5: Have you ever considered mastering the fundamentals before trying to innovate?

Actually, it’s not a fair question, because I think innovation attempts are fine whether or not you have a grasp on the fundamentals.

The better question would be: Have you ever considered mastering the fundamentals before trying to trash them?

Mammoth.1975:

Question 5: Have you ever considered mastering the fundamentals before trying to innovate?

Actually, it’s not a fair question, because I think innovation attempts are fine whether or not you have a grasp on the fundamentals.

The better question would be: Have you ever considered mastering the fundamentals before trying to trash them?

Considering my very first build was 30/0/10/30/0 Vampire with Soldier’s Ammy. I’d say yes. So what exactly the point to this line of question, Mr Rank 100 tPvP Pro who has posted more builds than anyone ever.