Guild Wars 2

Just got laid low by a stealth BS Thief and wanted some advice on how to counter…

He hit me from stealth, steal-bs (I was half health by then)
So I unleashed wells tried to target him (but he was in and out of stealth so couldn’t target) he skipped out of wells in stealth… then proceeded to bs/stealth me to death – every time I tried to target he stealthed :-(

Any advice?

Main thing to remember vs a theif: Be able to recover in 20 seconds after chain of attacks and you dont have to kill him since he wont be able to kill you.
Staff Reapers mark, Life Transfer and Wells are the best options, Reapers mark under you makes sure his hit fails and that he gets out of stealth while life transfer and wells still hit him while in stealth, if alone and under 1.9k armor, best bet is trough pressing F12 and logging out if in WvWvW.
As for pvp having a seal of hydromancy on both weapon sets is quite the feast against these guys since the ususal fragility combined with movement slow makes them cherries for the picking.
Also hard counter via Plague Form.

The steal-bs doesn’t start in stealth, so keep your camara panning and always be moving.
A glasscannon backstabber is dead meat if you land a chill on them.
To land the chill you need to stun break and dodge. If they are using the immobilise venom Ds fear.
If they restealth after a failed burst (most often because they can’t get behind you fast enough) you have 45 seconds to go about your business.

You’re fighting one of the most OP classes/builds in mmorpg history there. They can stealth away and heal and keep coming back at you endlessly at full strength while you lose cooldowns and health and can’t run away. A little thing you can do at say points in spvp is put down a staff 3 mark (chill) and staff 5 mark (fear) in the middle of it then stand on them. This takes away the first attack from the dumb ones and gives you time to react. It’s kind of mind boggling that in-combat stealth was ever and still is in this game.

I presume you were in World vs World. If so, just run to a friendly encampment while evading him the best you can by crippling/chilling him with AoE. Use plague to run away.

Because of rendering/culling issue, you won’t see him coming even with all that camera panning, and you will only see him ,5 second at a time, and Tabbing will not work because your system doesn’t know he’s there yet. I wish I could Fraps my 2v1 against a almost perma-stealth thief, it’s not even funny and the trend’s growing.

AoE without targets are key against this, Axe 3, Staff marks, Pain inverter. If you manage to target him in that .5 second, channeling skills (axe 2 dagger 2) continues to hit while stealthed.

It is right now the most annoying class to play against in WvW when roaming, but not because the class is OP (when you can see him he normally goes down), just because of visual and targeting issues that WvW brings with stealth mechanics.

In normal PvP with no issue those guys wouldn’t even get past us, yet in WvW they’re clearly exploiting a well know issue with stealth. Only luck at this point can help you, not really a skill issue so stay near towers/camp

Good luck on your travels!

Yeah, targeting is the main problem…
If I could have targeted him I could have locked him down, froze him etc… sadly he was in-out stealth hitting me so fast was impossible to get a target, and when I did he stealthed again.
Next time I see a Thief, i’ll run :-)

If you are Asura, pain inverter and keep putting down marks. Eventually, you will see a downed thief appear. Kill it and smile.

Also, if you see a guardian, get them to pop aegis for you. You’ll block the steal which is great.

I have the ‘3 sec retaliation’ trait when entering DS but this did not seem to work as his hits still hit me and he received no damage.
I have sent in a Bug report.

Well of Darkness works great if you can preemptively drop it. It’ll negate practically their entire opening burst.

What I do when I’m playing a power build is immediately DS and use Dark Path and Doom. They don’t last long outside of stealth and will either panic like a lot of thieves and spam HS to gap close after the fear, or they’ll use Hide in Shadows. I immediately use Flesh Golem’s knock down during Fear then use Dark Pact (Dagger #3) to immobilize them (golem guarantees your immobilize lands) and drop Well of Suffering and Corruption on them. Usually from this point two things happen more often than not: They use Blinding Power, or they use Shadowstep (or they die of course).

If they use Blinding Powder, switch to staff and drop Chillblains where they were just standing and if you know Steal is on cooldown, go into DS and hit Life Transfer. If you hear the sound of the spell, it’s hitting them even if you don’t see numbers. If you missed with Chillblains, use Reaper’s Mark on your feet and wait. If you hit with Chillblains it’s practically GG for the thief, you know they’re chilled in stealth and can drop the rest of your marks on them.

If they Shadowstep out of your wells, use Chillblains on them, stand on Reaper’s Mark and Mark of Blood (you have to be close to it to gain the regeneration) and build up Lifeforce with Necrotic Grasp (without DS, fighting a thief is significantly harder). Eventually he’s going to leave or stealth to try and burst you again. Depending on how confident you are, you can chase him down. DS #2 + DS #3 immediately upon contact followed up with Dagger #1 spam puts a lot of pressure on glassy thieves, who will then most likely CnD you which counter by dodging or waiting and then dodging the BS.

Heya, I’ve got some good tips for you, I have a power build that works very well against thieves, I love fighting them.

-What stats are on your armor and weapons? I ask because the thief BS build is perfect at taking out other glass cannon builds. I have about 2500 toughness and 19.5k health, I find this is enough to last long enough against thieves to get my damage in.

-Related to the above question: what weapons are you using? I ask because (1) dagger autoattack will hit a thief in stealth, you don’t need to target him (2) if you have similar stats to mine (toughness and health listed above, over 3k attack) a thief cannot go toe-to-toe with you in a dagger autoattack fight. He’ll lose. If he stealths, don’t just stand there – keep running in tight circles spamming dagger autoattack 1. Spin around occasionally (you can bind “about face” to a key in control options). You know he’s regenerating health in stealth, and you know he wants to backstab you, so keep attacking and keep spinning. If you’re successful you’ll see your attack animations change. When you see this, immediately turn around and keep spamming.

-A thief can’t just stealth for free, he needs to hit you with Cloak and Dagger to do it repeatedly. After coming out of stealth, the thief can’t restealth for 3s – this is enough time for a full dagger autoattack chain. So DON’T dodge right after the Backstab hits you. Wait, and count. When you see the 4th damage number and receive poison (his 4th dagger attack), dodge and he will miss the CnD and be out 6 initiative. At this point he will probably run straight at you and try it again. Just dodge again. You have other counters to his CnD as well – blind on dagger 4, blindness well, or chill him so he can’t get close to you (the only way thieves can remove Chill is by stealthing – the heal only removes DoTs, and the dodging traits only removes cripple and immobilize).

-If you can pull off the above tip, be ready for some funny situations One of the funniest things I’ve seen in this game is a thief miss both CnDs, then start freaking out. He shadowstep’d away, used IA to get away more, and used shadow refuge, and all I did was dodge twice. I just stood there for a few more seconds like, wat.

-If it is a close fight and they use Shadow Refuge, you can either spam dagger autoattacks into it, or drop Well of Suffering, or use DS 4. DS 4 has dropped many a thief who thinks he’s safe in Shadow Refuge.

-Some thieves are smart and won’t stand in your wells. So use it as a zoning tool to gain some extra space. For example, I was fighting a thief yesterday who started out the fight with his shortbow. When I saw him switch to his daggers, I dropped Well of Suffering and started spamming Dagger 1, even though he was still 800 range away. When he used Steal on me, he took like 5k damage in the next couple of seconds. Other times when I’ve dropped a well, the thief will back off and wait for it to expire before closing again. This is good, you have a few more seconds to heal or get some ranged damage in. If you see a thief running at you, casting something, it’s probably Basilisk Venom. Drop a blinding well and relax.

-Related to the tip above, marks work very well at zoning, too. If you don’t know where a thief is, lay down a mark or two on top of you and start spinning in circles.

-Axe 3 works really good against stealthed thieves. If you get the retaliation you know you hit them, and they are now crippled. Dodge forwards and turn around.

-If a thief hits you with CnD, count to two, then activate DS. He’ll use the backstab and you just avoided all that damage. The Weakening Shroud trait is great in this situation, it cuts down on his dodges and stacks a few bleeds.

-Consider swapping out one or two of your wells for other skills that will help you build life force and survive. For example, I like Spectral Wall a lot. Even without traiting for it, if you don’t know where a thief is, you can just drop it down and stand in it. You’ll get 5s of protection (5 more if you run through it again after the protection wears off) and the thief will get 10 stacks of vulnerability if he attacks you.

-The best advice I can give you is to make a thief and take him into sPvP. You will learn so much just from the experience of playing a thief. Personally I have found that it’s harder to backstab people than it looks. I also learned some timings and cooldowns on certain abilities, and I can bring that knowledge to bear when fighting thieves.

Hope this helped.

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I guess I didn’t make my point very well. The point is that Thief has ways to remove many specific conditions, and Chill isn’t one of them. Of course he can remove any condition, but if you have 5 conditions on you and use Hide in Shadows, it’s not guaranteed that Chill will be removed.

Kellhus.8071:

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

You and I could go back and forth all day with this. “But I know that you know the well CD, so maybe I won’t drop it, expecting you to stay away.” “But then I know that you know that I know…..” Having read the list, I expect that you know how to avoid each of them, but can you avoid every single one over the course of a WvW session? Probably not, and I won’t be able to avoid all the stuff you can do either, even if I know it’s coming. We both have dozens of ways to mix up our combos and throw the opponent off guard. These are the tools and mind games that are part of a great competitive game.

The point I was making with the wells is that you can use them for something other than what their description says. About half the thieves I fight do as you do: move out of the well when I drop it. Even so, dropping the well is a win-win situation. The thief either takes the damage or leaves me alone for a bit. I use the time the thief is off of me to do something else.

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Cool story but would you waste a condition on chill knowing I can restack it half a second later or maybe I will wait for you cleanse than hit you with a few bleeds or a poison, or you will cleanse and I will cripple you with retal.

We can run circles all day. I have yet to fight a theif who is absolutely perfect with his cleanses. I would say close to 70 percent of them ignore chill and vulnerability, and will save condition removal for bleeds, poisons, burns, cripple, and fear. Apparently the fact that every 2-3 seconds I can reapply any one of those isn’t enough.

Hanzo and lettucmode – thx for your posts, very helpful!

One of the keys in dealing with burst thieves is staying above 50% health as any burst thief will have the trait that does 20% more damage to targets under 50% health. That combined with the bonus damage from heartseeker to targets under 50%/20% health and you start to dig yourself in a hole you can’t get out of. So popping your heal after taking the initial burst is very important. As a power necro I highly recommend you don’t gear for pure glass but have lots of vit in your build as well. Vit benefits both your HP and LF pool and helps the necro sustain and survive burst.

Remember Necro’s rely on tanking damage with their huge HP/LF pool, we don’t really have access to many escape options, so it is important mitigate the damage we do tank. This is one of the reasons why weakness is so good for necros. The enfeebling blood on DS trait is a good trait for putting weakness on meele that get on you.

If you’re above 50% health you can generally just burn the thief down. As said above if you catch them with your dagger 3 immobilize even if they stealth you can just dagger auto-attack the spot you immobilized them (you’ll know you’re hitting them if you see your full chain go off) unless they shadowstep.

What thing I like to do with the fear mark is strategically casting my fear mark in a spot where I can retreat to later in the fight. That way if I need to catch my breathe to heal or they go into stealth to try to land BS or whatever you can fall back into your fear mark. Casting it early is beneficial since it will start recharging immediately so that it may possibly be up to use again during the fight.

Basically you have to get lucky or hope that the thief sucks at his class. They will always have the advantage of resetting the fight if you manage to turn the tide of the fight. AoEs are your friend as others have said.

If my marks and wells are on cooldown, sometimes I’ll just hit spectral walk and start running. Then as soon as they attack I’ll teleport back and I’m out of their cloak and dagger range, which leaves them exposed or forces them to blow another utility to restealth. Then drop chillbains on them and hit them with whatever you can before they close the distance.

The problem is that thieves can regen crazy amounts of HP in stealth and heal back up faster than you can, so they can take recovery breaks and then come back to finish the job.

kidbs.8920:

The problem is that thieves can regen crazy amounts of HP in stealth and heal back up faster than you can, so they can take recovery breaks and then come back to finish the job.

This only applies to Pistol/dagger thieves and they definitely don’t like to pick fights with necros. If a dagger/dagger thief is doing this then they aren’t a backstab build which is all or nothing. Half hearted d/d builds can be fought the same way as a heartseeker spammer, just expect it to take a bit longer.

Just to explain why Chill is so bad for a Glass Cannon backstabber.
They can’t remove it unless they have shadow step on their bar which is unlikely for the bursters.
It doesn’t slow their initiative burners so they often don’t know they have a chill until empty and with a slowed auto attack.
It removes their mobility and dodges.
If they don’t kill you with the c&d/steal/Bs hs hs they are pretty much dead in the water.
Looking at things from their view a Necro is a bad target, not as bad a a Guardian with Aegis up, but a close second.

Roysten.3456:

kidbs.8920:

The problem is that thieves can regen crazy amounts of HP in stealth and heal back up faster than you can, so they can take recovery breaks and then come back to finish the job.

This only applies to Pistol/dagger thieves and they definitely don’t like to pick fights with necros. If a dagger/dagger thief is doing this then they aren’t a backstab build which is all or nothing. Half hearted d/d builds can be fought the same way as a heartseeker spammer, just expect it to take a bit longer.

Just to explain why Chill is so bad for a Glass Cannon backstabber.
They can’t remove it unless they have shadow step on their bar which is unlikely for the bursters.
It doesn’t slow their initiative burners so they often don’t know they have a chill until empty and with a slowed auto attack.
It removes their mobility and dodges.
If they don’t kill you with the c&d/steal/Bs hs hs they are pretty much dead in the water.
Looking at things from their view a Necro is a bad target, not as bad a a Guardian with Aegis up, but a close second.

Glass cannon backstab builds aren’t the problem for necros (at least not for me) as even a few ticks in a well can leave them at 25% hp, so a quick switch to DS and lifedrain can usually finish them off.

There are lots thieves that are using dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger that are speccing for survivability (condition removal and regen in stealth). I actually see more of them than glass cannons these days. Let me tell you that they lose very little of their damage and gain a whole lot of of survivability. These are the thieves that will wreck your face consistently and are hell to kill.

So, how are we supposed to deal with this guy?

Or better yet, how’s a Necro supposed to accomplish anything similar, because I was promised that every profession could be specced to accomplish the same thing but using different skills/styles/abilities and I have no idea how to 1v7 as a Necromancer…
Yes I am frustrated.

Kiriakulos.1690:

So, how are we supposed to deal with this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

Or better yet, how’s a Necro supposed to accomplish anything similar, because I was promised that every profession could be specced to accomplish the same thing but using different skills/styles/abilities and I have no idea how to 1v7 as a Necromancer…
Yes I am frustrated.

Doing the same thing and doing something the exact same way aren’t the same thing. Doing the same thing simply means you can do wvwvw. Killing 7 really bad players using a broken culling system is not the same as able wvwvw.

Bas.7406:

Kiriakulos.1690:

So, how are we supposed to deal with this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

Or better yet, how’s a Necro supposed to accomplish anything similar, because I was promised that every profession could be specced to accomplish the same thing but using different skills/styles/abilities and I have no idea how to 1v7 as a Necromancer…
Yes I am frustrated.

Doing the same thing and doing something the exact same way aren’t the same thing.

Bas, did you read what I posted? I actually asked how to do that with a Necro AFTER explicitly saying that ANet promised balance in all classes being able to accomplish the same with different approaches.

You just agreed with me by disagreeing we can’t?
What?

EDIT- I see you changed your answer and well… he isn’t abusing culling, he isn’t using P/D, he doesn’t even need to swap weapons really. The video just illustrates that mitigation/avoidance >>>> damage sponges and well, Necros only have notable damage sponging abilities.

Finally, I don’t diminish that player’s skill by saying the enemies are bad, did they make stupid moves yes, does the caster play thief to it’s best? Definitely.
Would the best Necromancer ever be able to do anything close that agains the same enemies? No way in hell.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Bas, did you read what I posted? I actually asked how to do that with a Necro AFTER explicitly saying that ANet promised balance in all classes being able to accomplish the same with different approaches.

You just agreed with me by disagreeing we can’t?
What?

I read what you said, and I have been through this before. In fact, I wrote an article about game balance and it’s misunderstanding with a good gaming friend that is scheduled to go live in March.

Anet never said that you would be able to kill things as fast or live as long or escape as well or be as mobile. They said every class could complete every facet of the game without having to rely on a tank/healer/damage trinity type player to help them. They said their goal was to provide balance in the game.

Balance is not You can kill someone in 7 seconds I shoudl be able to do the same. Balance is saying you can play wvwvw by doing that, but I can do wvwvw by creating a spec that can avoid escape from any situation and be highly mobile or I can do wvwvw by creating a spec that allows me to break out and absorb most of yoru damage with my Death Shroud and then kill your 7 seconds or die class in 2.5 seconds because your ability to survie is nil.

Accomplishing the same goal and doing the same thing the exact same way are not always the same.

I really dislike that Skull Fear is 3x as long as any of our fears.
i.e. Doom and Reaper’s Mark if you have staff.
4x longer if they have condition duration.
to which i go .(_ _ ).

Its really annoying in a fight if I’m not carrying the Stability trait, an my stunbreak is on cool down >~<. (And it often will be if you use it for swiftness, or they Basilisk Venomed you before mugging you)

3s is a long time for them to run behind you and backstab + 11111111111111111111

There are some really good tips in this thread tho, ty for sharing^^. I’ve been meaning to practice 1v1’s with an experienced theif friend in sPvP to get better at countering them for wuv wuv, message me if you ever want to~

Laii, one more tip concerning Skull Fear, you can remove fears basically for free with the Shrouded Removal trait. Has saved my butt many times against thieves

I’ve been tempted to try that trait out so many times, especially with Close to death. I always get distraced ty staff cooldowns and marks thow whenever I go into death magick >~<

That and shroud stomping guardians/rangers/warriors/necros with stability makes my day every time I get to<3

Outside of lucky wells and Life Transfer, I’m not really sure what else you could do besides running around aimlessly spamming dagger or something.

Get some Tough, I run 1900, use axe 3 to get retaliation, he needs to be on you to do damage, drop a well and stand in it, when he is out of stealth use focus 4 and axe 2 both will hit him even if he stealths. He should be dead by now wait till be reappears and stomp him.

Put all your marks under your feet.

Thieves must be in melee to hurt you, if they go range then they cannot stealth and your healing abilities can probably out heal any damage they come at you with from range, less he runs away.

If you are a power necro then mostly you will just die to a bs thief unless you get lucky. Thats just the way it is. This is a 30/30/10/0/0 necro without any toughness I am talking about.

You will die. Thats the downside of running such a glass cannon build probably without stun breakers.

kidbs.8920:

There are lots thieves that are using dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger that are speccing for survivability (condition removal and regen in stealth). I actually see more of them than glass cannons these days. Let me tell you that they lose very little of their damage and gain a whole lot of of survivability. These are the thieves that will wreck your face consistently and are hell to kill.

The op wanted to know about backstabs thieves and they are the burst monsters that many people assume all thieves are.
I have been on both sides of a p/d necro fight and the most deadly threat is one of the players dying of boredom.
A d/d specced 30 pts in shadow for the cleanse regen will have a fraction of the damage of a backstabber. A frustrating fight but maintaining a gap with chill/cripple after utility stealths are used will neutralise their c&d. You might get one or more resets but in the end its about who makes the first mistake.
A necro is a horrible target for a thief.

Bas.7406:

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Cool story but would you waste a condition on chill knowing I can restack it half a second later or maybe I will wait for you cleanse than hit you with a few bleeds or a poison, or you will cleanse and I will cripple you with retal.

We can run circles all day. I have yet to fight a theif who is absolutely perfect with his cleanses. I would say close to 70 percent of them ignore chill and vulnerability, and will save condition removal for bleeds, poisons, burns, cripple, and fear. Apparently the fact that every 2-3 seconds I can reapply any one of those isn’t enough.

Hide in shadows removes ALL burn/poison/bleed, EVERY time. Stealthing if traited for it which many many thieves are, will remove 2 conditions over the duration of stealth. So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does, then 2 more conditions drop during the steatlh… If I have more on me? CND – bb 2 more, still more? CND-bb 2 more.. Conditions becoming overwhelming? Refuge-bb ALL conditions…

Really a decent thief whos traited for removal should never be bothered by 1 person applying conditions, ever..

Not to mention btw shadowstepping removing 3 at once, or a sword thief having near unlimited removal.

dank.3680:

Bas.7406:

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Cool story but would you waste a condition on chill knowing I can restack it half a second later or maybe I will wait for you cleanse than hit you with a few bleeds or a poison, or you will cleanse and I will cripple you with retal.

We can run circles all day. I have yet to fight a theif who is absolutely perfect with his cleanses. I would say close to 70 percent of them ignore chill and vulnerability, and will save condition removal for bleeds, poisons, burns, cripple, and fear. Apparently the fact that every 2-3 seconds I can reapply any one of those isn’t enough.

Hide in shadows removes ALL burn/poison/bleed, EVERY time. Stealthing if traited for it which many many thieves are, will remove 2 conditions over the duration of stealth. So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does, then 2 more conditions drop during the steatlh… If I have more on me? CND – bb 2 more, still more? CND-bb 2 more.. Conditions becoming overwhelming? Refuge-bb ALL conditions…

Really a decent thief whos traited for removal should never be bothered by 1 person applying conditions, ever..

Not to mention btw shadowstepping removing 3 at once, or a sword thief having near unlimited removal.

Shadowstep does not remove conditions, only Shadow Return.

Thieves have to give up the one-hit combo to get Condition Removal from stealth.

Hide in Shadows is good, but Necromancers apply conditions faster then most people can cure them, the staffs mark of blood alone can reapply 3 stacks of bleeds every 4 seconds.

Thieves must spec to cure chill, there heals and such don’t cure it.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mck9oMovlmMovlopx9MfcsMRbm

This is the Backstab build that one shots people, notice that you need Signets to increase the damage of Backstab/Mug/Cloak and Dagger by 15%, and also notice you need Signet of Shadows to catch up to people as well, and Shadow Step to run if crap hits the fan.

Daecollo.9578:

dank.3680:

Bas.7406:

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Cool story but would you waste a condition on chill knowing I can restack it half a second later or maybe I will wait for you cleanse than hit you with a few bleeds or a poison, or you will cleanse and I will cripple you with retal.

We can run circles all day. I have yet to fight a theif who is absolutely perfect with his cleanses. I would say close to 70 percent of them ignore chill and vulnerability, and will save condition removal for bleeds, poisons, burns, cripple, and fear. Apparently the fact that every 2-3 seconds I can reapply any one of those isn’t enough.

Hide in shadows removes ALL burn/poison/bleed, EVERY time. Stealthing if traited for it which many many thieves are, will remove 2 conditions over the duration of stealth. So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does, then 2 more conditions drop during the steatlh… If I have more on me? CND – bb 2 more, still more? CND-bb 2 more.. Conditions becoming overwhelming? Refuge-bb ALL conditions…

Really a decent thief whos traited for removal should never be bothered by 1 person applying conditions, ever..

Not to mention btw shadowstepping removing 3 at once, or a sword thief having near unlimited removal.

Shadowstep does not remove conditions, only Shadow Return.

Thieves have to give up the one-hit combo to get Condition Removal from stealth.

Hide in Shadows is good, but Necromancers apply conditions faster then most people can cure them, the staffs mark of blood alone can reapply 3 stacks of bleeds every 4 seconds.

Thieves must spec to cure chill, there heals and such don’t cure it.

Shadow Step is a TWO PART SKILL, the second half being dubbed Shadow Return- it’s still the same skill… —-

Thieves running “the 1 hit combo” aren’t worth worrying about anyways as they drop dead against any player with the slightest amount of skill..

My thief has 2500ish armor, 19k hp and is traited for removals and still backstabs anywhere from 5-9k with cnd regularly hitting in the 5k range.. I can stealth all day, and remove conditions all day, tank a bit, while still dishing out some harsh damage on a sustainable basis.

Your talking to someone who plays both Necro AND Thief and has used every build you can imagine for thief, admitedly only having run a full on condition build and now a crit based build with my Necro.. Either way, I’ve been on both sides of these battles in all of the scenarios..
.

dank.3680:

Daecollo.9578:

dank.3680:

Bas.7406:

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.

I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Cool story but would you waste a condition on chill knowing I can restack it half a second later or maybe I will wait for you cleanse than hit you with a few bleeds or a poison, or you will cleanse and I will cripple you with retal.

We can run circles all day. I have yet to fight a theif who is absolutely perfect with his cleanses. I would say close to 70 percent of them ignore chill and vulnerability, and will save condition removal for bleeds, poisons, burns, cripple, and fear. Apparently the fact that every 2-3 seconds I can reapply any one of those isn’t enough.

Hide in shadows removes ALL burn/poison/bleed, EVERY time. Stealthing if traited for it which many many thieves are, will remove 2 conditions over the duration of stealth. So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does, then 2 more conditions drop during the steatlh… If I have more on me? CND – bb 2 more, still more? CND-bb 2 more.. Conditions becoming overwhelming? Refuge-bb ALL conditions…

Really a decent thief whos traited for removal should never be bothered by 1 person applying conditions, ever..

Not to mention btw shadowstepping removing 3 at once, or a sword thief having near unlimited removal.

Shadowstep does not remove conditions, only Shadow Return.

Thieves have to give up the one-hit combo to get Condition Removal from stealth.

Hide in Shadows is good, but Necromancers apply conditions faster then most people can cure them, the staffs mark of blood alone can reapply 3 stacks of bleeds every 4 seconds.

Thieves must spec to cure chill, there heals and such don’t cure it.

Shadow Step is a TWO PART SKILL, the second half being dubbed Shadow Return- it’s still the same skill… —-

Thieves running “the 1 hit combo” aren’t worth worrying about anyways as they drop dead against any player with the slightest amount of skill..

My thief has 2500ish armor, 19k hp and is traited for removals and still backstabs anywhere from 5-9k with cnd regularly hitting in the 5k range.. I can stealth all day, and remove conditions all day, tank a bit, while still dishing out some harsh damage on a sustainable basis.

Your talking to someone who plays both Necro AND Thief and has used every build you can imagine for thief, admitedly only having run a full on condition build and now a crit based build with my Necro.. Either way, I’ve been on both sides of these battles in all of the scenarios..
.

I have an 80 thief and necromancer as well.

If a thief isn’t running all the way, hes not killing anyone with a lick of toughness instantly.

A Thief WOULD NEVER waste his shadow step for a condition cure unless he was about to die, because he probably used it to get away from a tight situation, why would he come back to it?

Especially a necromancer, mine has almost 3000 armor with my spec, and with the life stealing and wells and Death Shroud. There is no way anything is killing me quickly, and my Marks “HURT” with 1350ish condition damage, it doesn’t matter if he cures it, it has such a low CD on my marks and scepter it almost doesn’t matter.

19k HP and 2500ish armor, whats your spec and how much Critical Damage do you have? (I can’t see a 9k hit on someone who looks like they have some soldiers gear, unless your fighting underconned enemies.)

You must be using Valkyrie Gear, with some Soldiers.

dank.3680:

So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does

I don’t think this is correct. Just yesterday I had Bleed and Cripple on me, so I used Hide in Shadows, and only the Bleed was removed when the cast finished. It seems like the “remove condition on stealth” trait triggers first.

lettucemode.3789:

dank.3680:

So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does

I don’t think this is correct. Just yesterday I had Bleed and Cripple on me, so I used Hide in Shadows, and only the Bleed was removed when the cast finished. I’m sure the “remove condition on stealth” trait triggers first.

That is correct, it works the same way Warrior Warhorn works.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quick_Breathing

When using Charge, the skill takes effect first, and this trait only affects any remaining conditions.

It converts conditions first, then cures the rest.

Little information: Withdraw (healing skill) from the thief removes chill, immobilized and crippled. And yes, some thieves use that skill.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Little information: Withdraw (healing skill) from the thief removes chill, immobilized and crippled. And yes, some thieves use that skill.

Withdraw is an excellent healing skill, but the one major downside it has is it rolls you backwards, I wish it moved you forwards instead.

Daecollo.9578:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Little information: Withdraw (healing skill) from the thief removes chill, immobilized and crippled. And yes, some thieves use that skill.

Withdraw is an excellent healing skill, but the one major downside it has is it rolls you backwards, I wish it moved you forwards instead.

Would contradict with the skill’s name, but this is a necro topic, so let’s not deteriorate from the OP’s topic. I just noticed most ppl on this topic think thieves could get rid of chill only by stealthing, so I made that comment

Daecollo.9578:

dank.3680:

Daecollo.9578:

dank.3680:

Bas.7406:

Kellhus.8071:

Chill is a condition, it gets removed like any other condition — and condition removal isn’t wildly difficult for a thief.
I’m a terrible thief (i main necro/warrior/ele) and I can avoid anything listed here. I know how long a well lasts, and that it’s cd is 45/60. If I stealth, I move away. Wait for the drop, then wave at the necro for 5 seconds and re-engage. The real issue is that a moderately awake thief who knows other classes really has every advantage.

Also the truth is that more often than not you don’t see the thief coming, and you aren’t aware that opening burst is coming— and I find the absurd burst a thief can pull from basically invisible to be really rough to recover from.

Cool story but would you waste a condition on chill knowing I can restack it half a second later or maybe I will wait for you cleanse than hit you with a few bleeds or a poison, or you will cleanse and I will cripple you with retal.

We can run circles all day. I have yet to fight a theif who is absolutely perfect with his cleanses. I would say close to 70 percent of them ignore chill and vulnerability, and will save condition removal for bleeds, poisons, burns, cripple, and fear. Apparently the fact that every 2-3 seconds I can reapply any one of those isn’t enough.

Hide in shadows removes ALL burn/poison/bleed, EVERY time. Stealthing if traited for it which many many thieves are, will remove 2 conditions over the duration of stealth. So every time a thief uses hide in shadows he firstly removes any burn/poison/bleed as the removal happens before the stealth does, then 2 more conditions drop during the steatlh… If I have more on me? CND – bb 2 more, still more? CND-bb 2 more.. Conditions becoming overwhelming? Refuge-bb ALL conditions…

Really a decent thief whos traited for removal should never be bothered by 1 person applying conditions, ever..

Not to mention btw shadowstepping removing 3 at once, or a sword thief having near unlimited removal.

Shadowstep does not remove conditions, only Shadow Return.

Thieves have to give up the one-hit combo to get Condition Removal from stealth.

Hide in Shadows is good, but Necromancers apply conditions faster then most people can cure them, the staffs mark of blood alone can reapply 3 stacks of bleeds every 4 seconds.

Thieves must spec to cure chill, there heals and such don’t cure it.

Shadow Step is a TWO PART SKILL, the second half being dubbed Shadow Return- it’s still the same skill… —-

Thieves running “the 1 hit combo” aren’t worth worrying about anyways as they drop dead against any player with the slightest amount of skill..

My thief has 2500ish armor, 19k hp and is traited for removals and still backstabs anywhere from 5-9k with cnd regularly hitting in the 5k range.. I can stealth all day, and remove conditions all day, tank a bit, while still dishing out some harsh damage on a sustainable basis.

Your talking to someone who plays both Necro AND Thief and has used every build you can imagine for thief, admitedly only having run a full on condition build and now a crit based build with my Necro.. Either way, I’ve been on both sides of these battles in all of the scenarios..
.

I have an 80 thief and necromancer as well.

If a thief isn’t running all the way, hes not killing anyone with a lick of toughness instantly.

A Thief WOULD NEVER waste his shadow step for a condition cure unless he was about to die, because he probably used it to get away from a tight situation, why would he come back to it?

Especially a necromancer, mine has almost 3000 armor with my spec, and with the life stealing and wells and Death Shroud. There is no way anything is killing me quickly, and my Marks “HURT” with 1350ish condition damage, it doesn’t matter if he cures it, it has such a low CD on my marks and scepter it almost doesn’t matter.

19k HP and 2500ish armor, whats your spec and how much Critical Damage do you have? (I can’t see a 9k hit on someone who looks like they have some soldiers gear, unless your fighting underconned enemies.)

You must be using Valkyrie Gear, with some Soldiers.

You would be correct I use a mix of Valk/PVT with a couple zerker pieces thrown in and ruby jewels. Food and Sigil of Perception compensates my builds lack of crit chance bringing me easily over 50% even though I’m not geared for it. I have a 95/105 crit damage bonus depending which food I use. I misquoted my HP though, Its actually 17.5k.

Oh btw I did say 5-9k not just 9k every time. It depends on lots of things like vuln stacks / toughness etc..

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Daecollo.9578:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Little information: Withdraw (healing skill) from the thief removes chill, immobilized and crippled. And yes, some thieves use that skill.

Withdraw is an excellent healing skill, but the one major downside it has is it rolls you backwards, I wish it moved you forwards instead.

Would contradict with the skill’s name, but this is a necro topic, so let’s not deteriorate from the OP’s topic. I just noticed most ppl on this topic think thieves could get rid of chill only by stealthing, so I made that comment

I just made a little comment about why I dislike the ability, some times it gets me into trouble, some times I roll into more enemies, or off cliffs.

Quote:
So, how are we supposed to deal with this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic

Interesting video, but I have to ask this as a player not knowing
a thief: In the back half of the video, when he downs someone,
he stealths to finish them, however, I dont see him use a single
ability to stealth. A good example of this is at 11:23 minutes, but
is almost in every one. Is this from the number 5 skill on a dagger
and Im just missing it?

Yes he used C&D (5# skill), it’s a swing from right to left with the offhand dagger. Relatively slow attack that can be dodged if you’re watching for it. (Though I myself don’t always notice it when I’m fighting a thief.. I just try to prevent them from using it with blind)

I watched that several times and dont see it going off, maybe
Im just slow. Im assuming that was it though.

Roysten.3456:

kidbs.8920:

There are lots thieves that are using dagger/dagger and pistol/dagger that are speccing for survivability (condition removal and regen in stealth). I actually see more of them than glass cannons these days. Let me tell you that they lose very little of their damage and gain a whole lot of of survivability. These are the thieves that will wreck your face consistently and are hell to kill.

The op wanted to know about backstabs thieves and they are the burst monsters that many people assume all thieves are.
I have been on both sides of a p/d necro fight and the most deadly threat is one of the players dying of boredom.
A d/d specced 30 pts in shadow for the cleanse regen will have a fraction of the damage of a backstabber. A frustrating fight but maintaining a gap with chill/cripple after utility stealths are used will neutralise their c&d. You might get one or more resets but in the end its about who makes the first mistake.
A necro is a horrible target for a thief.

My friend plays a d/d cleanse/regen thief and is still capable of pulling 9k backstabs. You may consider that a fraction of the damage of a glass cannon, but it will still wreck someone’s face. The only class that he actively avoids is a bunker ele, everyone else he takes down quite easily.

Thunderbrew.7034:

I watched that several times and dont see it going off, maybe
Im just slow. Im assuming that was it though.

You can clearly see when he starts the attack by just watching the skill bar.
The reason you don’t see it well in the vid is because you chose a bad moment to look for it. The thief is being hit constantly and you don’t rly see the character well through all those attacks.

Try watching from 11.39, he uses cloak and dagger several times after each other there (to stay stealthed and not getting agro)