Guild Wars 2

Hi!

I’m here to talk about how to nerf Reaper.
As I do not know how it’ll be at the launch of Heart of Thorns, the beta make me feeling like it’s way too powerful O_O
And I’m playing an Asura Necromancer, I’ll welcome the Reaper as soon as it’s available.

In your opinion, if they want to reduce Reaper power, how should they do it?

As for my opinion on the topic, only two components actually make me think the Reaper is “too op”.

Major Master Trait: Decimate Defenses
Increase Critical Chance by 1% per stack of Vulnerability (downed from 2%)

I consider this part irrelevant now, I let it for the understanding of following posts.
Greatsword #2: Gravedigger
Recharge reduced by 50% against a downed or low health foe (downed from 100%)

I would balance Reaper by bringing the other elite specs up to its level. Reaper is the benchmark of how an elite spec should be done. Period.

I do not have feelings that reaper is OP, it just needs a whole different tactic than traditional necro to kill.
Be prepared to receive alot of hate from other, I wont hurt you and respect your opinion tho
However I do have to give you credit that if reapers gets a nerf, this would be the most subtle way

Reaper will deal nearly the dmg of other classes did the last 3 years… So why nerf?
maybe because it feels so strong? You know how felt the other classes until yet.

Enjoy it and participate with all the other necros out there who comes outside and want to have fun at last!

I think a better idea is to just let things play out for like 1-2 months and THEN intervene if any inbalances are detected.

The way I see it, necro’s need something big to pull them back up to par with the other classes.
And as the Reaper hype is wearing off a little bit; a lot of necromancers realize that although reaper is making us “more viable” for group PvE content, it’s still not making us WANTED for that content. We still don’t provide anything solid to the group that another class can’t do more and/or better. Reaper still isn’t top DPS and still doesn’t provide any kind of group synergy. So it’s largely going to depend if certain raid content is going to play into something that necromancer is good at.

For PvP the story is slightly different. Necromancer is decent in PvP and is likely to get better. However from what I’ve seen, it’s not overpowered strong. In fact, to go reaper you have to give up a lot of traits/abilties that make necro strong at the moment (some condition transfer / perma-weakness).

As for your suggestions.
The gravedigger change was something that was in game during BWE1 and it REALLY didn’t flow.
The problem with not having 100% recharge reduction is that the skill is too short. In the time left in that gap there is little to do (partially due to long after casts and stuff).

On top of that, as I mentioned before: Reaper is not by a long shot the best dps in the game. Gravedigger spam is pretty good dps (although I doubt even then we’re the strongest), but that’s only for 50% of the fight.

Should the reaper hypothetically be too strong. I don’t think traits is a good place to mess with it.
But it also depends a lot on WHAT makes reaper too strong.
Too much dps in raid PvE? Tone down Gravedigger slightly (preferably through numbers rather than cooldown)
Too much sustain? Look at where it’s coming from, maybe tweak LF generation or Blighter’s Boon.
Reaper can be tweaked pretty effectively, because it’s pve and pvp components are quite different. In PvE it’s mostly the greatsword that you can approach; in PvP it’s mostly the shroud you can tweak.

Well, Decimate defense is somewhat ok.

Honestly, I feel that Gravedigger is the real threat to the overall balance of the reaper. So simply, let it do less instant damage but make it faster in compensation so that the overall damage per second end up being the same. It wouldn’t one shot foes anymore and the “above 50%” damage per second would definitely goes down but a faster gravedigger would allow more room to use active defense when used on foe under 50%.

I’m willing to sacrifice some gravedigger DPS on foes above 50% health point for QoL and an healthier PvP.

@Ilharn
Maybe I’m a bit too much afraid of a big nerf pushing Reaper back ^_^"

@Nyth
Unfortunately, I wasn’t there during BWE1, I missed all but one beta weekend.
So, I wasn’t able to test the not spammable version of Gravedigger.

I expect most people to complain about might stacking bruiser builds with loads of sustain that can sit at 25 might with a faster might ramp uptime than ever before. Some people will beg and scream for blighters boom to get an IcD.

Dadnir.5038:

Well, Decimate defense is somewhat ok.

Honestly, I feel that Gravedigger is the real threat to the overall balance of the reaper. So simply, let it do less instant damage but make it faster in compensation so that the overall damage per second end up being the same. It wouldn’t one shot foes anymore and the “above 50%” damage per second would definitely goes down but a faster gravedigger would allow more room to use active defense when used on foe under 50%.

I’m willing to sacrifice some gravedigger DPS on foes above 50% health point for QoL and an healthier PvP.

Greatsword in PvP is more a liability than an advantage.
Gravedigger is balanced for pvp in the sense that you give up a ton of sustain by not picking up either:
a) A staff, which includes ranged damage, pre-fight marks, a very solid AoE chill, a very good condi transfer and an AoE fear. All unblockable as well.
b) Dagger/Warhorn which means you lose out on great sustained high damage, great LF generation, an extra heal and an interrupt.

Picking up GS might give you some nice bursty damage, but you’ll lose so much more. I don’t think i’ve seen the top PvP necro’s play with GS for very long in sPvP.

I don’t really agree with either….ok I can semi agree about DD, but really I don’t think it’s too powerful considering to get the amount of vul we need to make it worth it, we’re talking about giving up bitter chill here, as well as reduced shroud cooldown and unblock able marks.

And Gravedigger is fine the way it is. Reason why? That windup is huge, so can be easily interrupted or bursted down, or just plain dodged. Making it 50% cooldown would make it too clunky and really not worth using, in fact GD is pretty much the only reason to take GS anyway right now. Remeber BWE 1 where it had a 1 second cooldown? Yeah….fun times.

Kulvar.1239:

@Nyth
Unfortunately, I wasn’t there during BWE1, I missed all but one beta weekend.
So, I wasn’t able to test the not spammable version of Gravedigger.

Back then it was 80%, which was even more awkward as you were left with 1s gaps between gravediggers in which you could quite literally do nothing at all (even an autoattack swing took longer).

50% might seem better; but you have to realize that the greatsword really isn’t a great weapon.
The ONLY saving grace it has, is that spamming grave digger sub-50% is the highest dps move we have.
If we remove that, everyone will just go back to dagger/X auto attack.

People think 30k gravediggers are the bomb. But those high hits are somewhat exceptional. Since gravedigger takes about 2s for a complete cast, the dps isn’t even all that high. Even assuming you have 100% crit chance (which you might not have if you pick up Death Perception), that’s still “only” 15k dps if you spam it.
If you make the cooldown 50%, you’ll cut that dps by half if not more. And dagger/X is far better dps at that point.

I have to disagree. While I was playing on beta quite more on pvp where people were too confused what was actually happening (there I would say it looked like reaper is op) about pve reaper is for me balanced. Not that low dmg, not that high like warrior. Right now necro are not strong, with GS it may jump a bit. But to nerf it already? I was running many builds, from tank to siphoning, from conditions to berserk which I use right now to exchange with more survivability and conditions (I play already 3 years with this class. With buffs and nerfs. Nothing can stop me.) So when I see that AN gives something powerful, yet not that strong to my class…let’s appreciate this. There are all time other stronger classes. Also everyone can play necro as they please. There are still condi or just normal typical builds with nothing special. I don’t think that necro will unbalance gameplay or just this class itself.

nearlight.3064:

I expect most people to complain about might stacking bruiser builds with loads of sustain that can sit at 25 might with a faster might ramp uptime than ever before. Some people will beg and scream for blighters boom to get an IcD.

Then i want to have ICD on Phalanx Strength too – but i heard no screaming about that

Thanks you, sharing your insights with me is quite reassuring

Ilharn.6813:

nearlight.3064:

I expect most people to complain about might stacking bruiser builds with loads of sustain that can sit at 25 might with a faster might ramp uptime than ever before. Some people will beg and scream for blighters boom to get an IcD.

Then i want to have ICD on Phalanx Strength too – but i heard no screaming about that

Na, put one on forceful GS as well. Brings it in line with the eh rest of the GS traits. prepares anti flame defenses

In what Area of the Game is the Reaper OP ?

In sPvP where the only semi-vaible Necro build is Cele-Signet and that will be reduced now after fix to Cele-Ele… so Reaper will come in with GS and and hit those 4year long cast-time Gravedigger on pro-tourney players ?

In WvW where Reaper in big Zerg fights will still base there Utility skills on Wells for Range Max AoE-Dps and Staff for the same reason ? If u wanna go Melee range Reaper in Zerg fights well then u have to adapt with less then Zerkiest Gear.. so thats where u wanna Nerf ?

In PvE those Reaper Gravediggers gonna edge out the crurrent Ele + Warrior + Guard buff-bots ? compete in dps with Sinsiter Engis that totally dominated the so called “first raid kills” ?

Where is the need for this OP Reaper in your opinion then ?

Long cast-time with big rewards is the key line you should base the Reaper on. So it comes down to the number of landed big hits on a Target and in any type of PvP situation the fight vs a high Evade class can be over before u even land 1 of those hits. The only thing that feels remotely to strong atm in Reaper is 12 stax of Posion on Soul Spiral… the only thing !!!

Ravezaar.4951:

In what Area of the Game is the Reaper OP ?

In sPvP where the only semi-vaible Necro build is Cele-Signet and that will be reduced now after fix to Cele-Ele… so Reaper will come in with GS and and hit those 4year long cast-time Gravedigger on pro-tourney players ?

In WvW where Reaper in big Zerg fights will still base there Utility skills on Wells for Range Max AoE-Dps and Staff for the same reason ? If u wanna go Melee range Reaper in Zerg fights well then u have to adapt with less then Zerkiest Gear.. so thats where u wanna Nerf ?

In PvE those Reaper Gravediggers gonna edge out the crurrent Ele + Warrior + Guard buff-bots ? compete in dps with Sinsiter Engis that totally dominated the so called “first raid kills” ?

Where is the need for this OP Reaper in your opinion then ?

Long cast-time with big rewards is the key line you should base the Reaper on. So it comes down to the number of landed big hits on a Target and in any type of PvP situation the fight vs a high Evade class can be over before u even land 1 of those hits. The only thing that feels remotely to strong atm in Reaper is 12 stax of Posion on Soul Spiral… the only thing !!!

Bah, screw cele signets. The things reaper on many different various builds can do far outweighs that build. Cele signets is good at killing eles. Outside of that its lackluster. There are many reaper builds that can bring so much more to a teamfight while being harder to kill, even if the ele 1v1 isn’t as easy. Just being able to sustain versus them is enough imo.

Reaper is nowhere near OP. See Chronomancer for that

Stop calling for Nerfs before the profession is even live! What is wrong with you people? You don’t know anything about the final iteration of the class so what makes you think you have ANY idea how or why to nerf it?

Dristig.9678:

Stop calling for Nerfs before the profession is even live! What is wrong with you people? You don’t know anything about the final iteration of the class so what makes you think you have ANY idea how or why to nerf it?

Various reasons really. Fear of things being so strong at launch that they end up gutting the profession later down the line.

Other people who don’t play reaper or play very little start whining for nerfs when they realize they can’t just focus the necro as easily before and expect to win against them, thus calling for nerfs so their old tactics work again.

Meta classes calling for nerfs so that they won’t be pushed out and made potentially obsolete.

Few more, can’t think of em now. It’ll come to me.

Why is nobody whining against the Scraper?!?! The Engi spec is way more powerful! People just don’t want necro to be on par with the rest…

Nyth.3492:

Picking up GS might give you some nice bursty damage, but you’ll lose so much more. I don’t think i’ve seen the top PvP necro’s play with GS for very long in sPvP.

But that’s exactly why I think it’s unhealthy. You sure lose a lot but what the guy in front of you see is only your instant damage and it’s a certainty, it’s bound to create a montain of thread saying : “Nerf Reaper! OP damage! look at my log 30k in 2 hit!”

It won’t become “meta” but it’s an obvious pain in the back in 1-2 month from now. So yeah, I’m already saying how i’d prefer them to balance it so it doesn’t ruin everything and as a bonus I gain some QoL change.

I do not think that reaper needs to get nerfed at all. It trades its range abilities for melee ones.

And no, staff doesnt count as damage. It is just a matter of time to learn how to counter the specialisations.

Reaper doesn’t need to be nerfed, it needs to be buffed.

The damage plus support is too low for PvE and there is no ranged pressure in Pvp, making it a sitting duck.

As a long-term Necro player I have to live through repeated cycles of…

1. Excitement
2. Disappointment
3. Denial
4. Anger
5. Apathy
6. More Anger
7. Abandonment
8. Withdrawal

I´m at apathy now. Please don´t make me angry again.

Gs reaper for spvp ?? “headdesk”

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I would balance Reaper by bringing the other elite specs up to its level. Reaper is the benchmark of how an elite spec should be done. Period.

Elite specializations shouldn’t be an upgrade to regular specs, but an alternative. If they were really that much better you’d basically limit any kind of build diversity to “elite + 2 others”.
That being said, Reaper isn’t op.
Death Shroud could use a buff though, because as it stands RS is clearly better than DS.

flow.6043:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I would balance Reaper by bringing the other elite specs up to its level. Reaper is the benchmark of how an elite spec should be done. Period.

Elite specializations shouldn’t be an upgrade to regular specs, but an alternative. If they were really that much better you’d basically limit any kind of build diversity to “elite + 2 others”.
That being said, Reaper isn’t op.
Death Shroud could use a buff though, because as it stands RS is clearly better than DS.

This, I think reaper will finally show Anet just what exactly necromancer needs to be a better more viable class as it gives them another subsection of the necro to balance for, rather than a comparison to other classes and their abilities. B

Dont worry ppl, its a Warrior that made the Thread

Of course, a necromancer can’t be useful. Nope, have to cry nerf immediately. Note that even in the current state, Reaper is likely not going to be part of the meta – just closer to it, and not as likely to be kicked out of PuGs in group content.

Some people simply can’t get over the ‘large numbers = awesome’ train of thought. Nevermind the large cast time (making it mostly useless in anything other than PvE or really low MMR PvP). Nevermind the full cooldown if the ability is blocked/dodged/misses due to blind. Neeeeeeeeeeeerf! Must neeeeeeeeeeeeerf!!

With that aside, base necro needs a buff. Perhaps that way ANet would not need to try balancing a whole class by using elite spec.

Zania.8461:

With that aside, base necro needs a buff. Perhaps that way ANet would not need to try balancing a whole class by using elite spec.

^this and always this…

As an aside, I have to strongly disagree with everyone saying that the GS will be useless in PvP. It gives you an AOE pull, a pulsing blindfield, and a “downed-securing” gravedigger (spam to prevent rezz), which are all incredible. Just learn to mix those into your RS/offhand rotations. I mean, seriously: do you just spam your autoattack with every other weaponset? Gee Golly! With the introduction of RS, necro is in the least danger of just spamming auto-attack now, so you can afford to have a GS for the excellent utility/cleave without even using the AA which everyone loves to hate.

What makes you think that Reaper is too powerful? Have you tried out the other professions yet?

I’ll agree that Reaper feels powerful, but that’s in comparison to base necromancer, which has objectively been, on average, the worse profession in PvE through this game’s life.

And even now as HoT nears, Reaper DPS is to my knowledge still towards the bottom of the list. In groups, I can only see Reaper out-DPSing perhaps mesmer and druid, and then when you look at those professions they add so much extra group DPS that the fact that their personal DPS is a bit lower than Reaper is irrelevant.

Bottom line is, because Reaper is so self-sufficient and so high personal DPS, it is balanced out by the fact that it has terrible group support and has terrible group DPS. Why would you ever think that Reaper is too powerful unless you haven’t had experience outside of necromancer? More likely what I think is going on to people who think Reaper is strong is being misled by framing effects/money illusion effect where we see big numbers and mistake them for high DPS.

Before they nerf reaper they should remove chronomancer from the game. That is the most overpowered stupid kitten i’ ve ever seen. After that we can talk.

Nyth.3492:

I think a better idea is to just let things play out for like 1-2 months and THEN intervene if any inbalances are detected.

I agree with this. The expansion isn’t even out yet. I know there have been beta weekends, but let’s let everyone get their hands on the new elite specs and the new content before we start asking to be nerfed!

Kulvar, why would you think Necromancer needs a nerf? It is still a slow, low mobility, profession with only Transfusion and the durability to be a res-bot for group support. Dps is very good when it is stacked with boons but not the best.

Reaper isn’t remotely OP. Is it strong? Absolutely, but it is strong within its niches, which is great. Shout Reaper becomes very strong in teamfights, where it is meant to be strong, but not outside. That is just good design, strong in its niche with reasonable counterplay.

Let it play out a bit, Reaper from BWE wasn’t good enough to nerf.

Reaper’s not op, it’s strong and competitive, but there are many ways to counter reapers. As a necro/reaper I know exactly how to kill reapers. I killed reapers on my necro over beta weekends. I killed reapers, 2 at the same time too, on my reaper over the beta weekends. Problem with a lot of people is they simply don’t understand reaper moves, abilities, and they think they could just smash buttons against them and win.

The fact that you even suggested a nerf to gravedigger shows you were fighting bad players that even allowed you to spam gravedigger on them. Against competent players, you’ll be lucky to even land one gravedigger, there’s no need to nerf gravedigger. Although I’m not opposed to the nerf to spammability IF they buff Greatsword all around as a result.

Spammable gravedigger in PvE is probably the reason why Greatsword is held back for PvP purposes.

Fought pretty much all classes & elite specs in WvW solo roaming over BWE 3. They were good fights, won some lost some. Bottom line is most were close fights so it shows reapers are competitive, but not overpowered by any means.

Hahaha theres been so much class shifting that now when we finally feel powerful with a class we expect a nerf

In any case i see where you are coming from, necros can negate melee and ranged attacks without shroud and still do high damage. Before all other classes had to do is rush them, stun them a few times add some well timed blocks and evades and that was that. Now its very similar to fighting a mesmer so requires a little more to kill. Just seems too good to be true i guess

Anets stance on all the changes is basically to wait and see how it pans out. My only concern with this is that players become familiar with their new spec’s (and in some cases radically invest into whole new gear lines.) Then the changes hit. This sours the player experience. Best advice on how to balance a reaper, ..just don’t play one for 6 months and wait til the dust as settled, then start the serious discussion.

Currently, the most complains I’ve read about reaper is not its damage but its sustain, most specifically Bligher’s boon.

The base heal or LF regen of BB can be easily tweaked. But considering that Reaper is so restricted to melee AND has little mobility, I believe we should wait for people to realize how much counterplay there is to the reaper before changing anything.

Silverkey.2078:

Currently, the most complains I’ve read about reaper is not its damage but its sustain, most specifically Bligher’s boon.

The base heal or LF regen of BB can be easily tweaked. But considering that Reaper is so restricted to melee AND has little mobility, I believe we should wait for people to realize how much counterplay there is to the reaper before changing anything.

This is the post that best describes my current feelings on the situation of Reaper in PvP.

flow.6043:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I would balance Reaper by bringing the other elite specs up to its level. Reaper is the benchmark of how an elite spec should be done. Period.

Elite specializations shouldn’t be an upgrade to regular specs, but an alternative. If they were really that much better you’d basically limit any kind of build diversity to “elite + 2 others”.
That being said, Reaper isn’t op.
Death Shroud could use a buff though, because as it stands RS is clearly better than DS.

Yes, absolutely, BUT Reaper feels and is Upgrade.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Anets stance on all the changes is basically to wait and see how it pans out. My only concern with this is that players become familiar with their new spec’s (and in some cases radically invest into whole new gear lines.) Then the changes hit. This sours the player experience. Best advice on how to balance a reaper, ..just don’t play one for 6 months and wait til the dust as settled, then start the serious discussion.

And then after the dust settles the dust is kicked up again 3 months later, it will never end i mean look at thief, there are 2 trait lines for evasion that are so similar to each other that is one cloud of dust that will have to be resolved if the class is going to move forward after HoT. Now that could have been avoided in the first place by combining the two lines as acro and then designing something else for HoT but nope they created another situation that would need to be worked on later leading to more dust.

The wait and see approach is smart as long as all the foundation issues have been resolved, like the base classes, base necro doesnt hold a candle to reaper, base thief is just bad all round. Issues like skills not being used such as spirit weapons or racial skills. These are all things that if changed will cause more game wide rebalancing because they added so much new cool stuff, well designed, but well designed around the current game to us.

Reaper isn’the OP in any way. To suggest such a thing shows a real disconnect from the game.

The thing with DS and RS is: RS is melee. DS is ranged. DS DOES need some kind of buff but RS isn’t as all mighty if you know how to play against it.
Ele’s will still rule the world even without having a damaging elite spec, warriors and guardians will still be used more even if their elite specs are not conform to the current meta…the whole thing is that people still have the old meta in their brains. It’s gonna wither and die off and a new one will rise up maybe using some of the new elite specs…warrior and guardian are still stronger in team support in pve and eles are still stronger in pvp. Necro’s gonna have a nice new spot as some kind of a bruiser…this hasn’t changed.
Learn to counter RS and stop complaining is what I’m trying to say. The thing with this being considered an “upgrade” is because necro doesn’t have many playstyles in general. If there were some improvements to some of our other skills we’d not consider it an “upgrade” but a sidegrade.

Bhawb.7408:

Reaper isn’t remotely OP. Is it strong? Absolutely, but it is strong within its niches, which is great. Shout Reaper becomes very strong in teamfights, where it is meant to be strong, but not outside. That is just good design, strong in its niche with reasonable counterplay.

Let it play out a bit, Reaper from BWE wasn’t good enough to nerf.

This, a hundred times this! Why is it people start screaming OP until something is actually tried for any length of time in many various situations I’ll never know. Anyway it isn’t OP and as Bawb has said it’s good in situational combat nothing more. Isn’t it about time Necros weren’t complete useless, let it go, please.

they shouldnt

Hm… How about no.

Have you seen Chronomancer? Get back to me after you’ve given that a try.

OP it is clear you haven’t played the Reaper or have no idea what you are talking about. Fortunately, Robert H Geezus isn’t going to blindly react to uninformed criticism.