Guild Wars 2

Given the large discussion about traits recently, I figured it would be a good idea to at least get an ideas thread going for ways to improve our terrible traits. I am, however, going to make a few guidelines.

1. Must be reasonable
2. Must keep a variant on the original functionality.

For example, my first suggestion is Siphoned Power. I would suggest changing it to the following:

“Gain might for 5 seconds when struck below a Health Threshold.
75%: 1 stack
50%: 2 stacks
25%: 4 stacks”

While the upper limit seems high, in an average 1v1 scenario, it would usually average out to around 3-5 stacks of might, which is a nice boost, but not anything overwhelming. However, when below 25% health, it can jump up to an extremely noticeable 16-20 stacks of might. What this allows is for a necromancer with the trait to choose to go for a high-risk, high-reward situation when low on health. He can either heal up and play defensively to prolong his life, or he can go balls-to-the-walls aggressive and tear into his opponent before they can finish him off. Skilled use of Death Shroud and balancing heals can turn this trait into a monster, but misplaced use of either gets you killed or no longer benefiting. It is self-balanced that to get that kind of buff, you are purposefully getting hit when you are close to dying.

• Dhuumfire moved to Master trait, changed to on-hit every 15 seconds.
• Terror moved up to Grandmaster trait.
• Weakening Shroud changed to 20 second ICD.
• Reainimator changed to Adept trait with Staff Mastery taking its spot @ 5.
• Protection of the Horde changed to Master trait with Greater Marks taking its spot @ 15.
• Remove Blind and Vulnerability from Signet of Spite.
• Fix Putrid Mark so it transfers 5 conditions from you, 1 from each nearest ally (5 max) and increase its cooldown to 30 seconds.
• Fix all marks so they do not go on full cooldown when interrupted/ cancelled, or change every other skill in the game so they go on full cooldown when interrupted/ cancelled.

Ascii.9726:

• Reainimator changed to Adept trait with Staff Mastery taking its spot @ 5.
• Protection of the Horde changed to Master trait with Greater Marks taking its spot @ 15.

Doesn’t this cause the same problem that’s already there, just with Staff instead of Minions?

Vampiric – Recover HP whenever you gain LifeForce. 50% of gained LifeForce is added to your current HP but HP recovered is capped at 50% of your current HealingPower (If you gained 2000 LF but had only 1000 healing power you’d be healed for only 500 HP).
Edit- we already have enough sustain issues, removed the suggested 1 sec ICD.

Might as well gain life when you gain lifeforce.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Doesn’t this cause the same problem that’s already there, just with Staff instead of Minions?

There changed to optional traits, not forcing you to choose them because you want the perks of staff in the Death Magic tree and I’m not sure about you but the only reason i go into the Death Magic tree is for staff masteries and the 25 point.

There still there for Minion Masters to choose.

Ascii.9726:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Doesn’t this cause the same problem that’s already there, just with Staff instead of Minions?

There changed to optional traits, not forcing you to choose them because you want the perks of staff in the Death Magic tree and I’m not sure about you but the only reason i go into the Death Magic tree is for staff masteries and the 25 point.

There still there for Minion Masters to choose.

I’m not sure you get it. The problem with the minor traits right now is that they only really work for one kind of build (using minions). What you propose is bad because it does the same thing (only works for using staff). You may like it more, but it still creates the same problem, just with a different culprit.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m not sure you get it. The problem with the minor traits right now is that they only really work for one kind of build (using minions). What you propose is bad because it does the same thing (only works for using staff). You may like it more, but it still creates the same problem, just with a different culprit.

No, i dont think you get it.

There traits that are bound to a build type/ utility type (minion master) staff is a weapon type that is used in almost all builds and is much more flexible then having to be a minion master to use these traits. Any decent Necromancer will tell you the only incentive to go into Death Magic at the moment is Greater Marks and Deadly Strength.

Replacing them with non-specific traits would see this tree have no obvious purpose, and I’m not sure if you noticed but every trait line on every class is themed.

Drarnor is right, “almost all builds” is not every build… and that’s what minor traits are about. Also, if they are in a defensive trait line (which Death Magic is) then those traits should improve every build’s defense rather than 1 weapon.

And btw, moving the current DM minors to major traits would just create 2 traits that no one would ever take, and we all know there are enough of those in DM already.

Also: nooooo!! Ascii is a Dhuumfire fanboy :P

Ascii.9726:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m not sure you get it. The problem with the minor traits right now is that they only really work for one kind of build (using minions). What you propose is bad because it does the same thing (only works for using staff). You may like it more, but it still creates the same problem, just with a different culprit.

No, i dont think you get it.

There traits that are bound to a build type/ utility type (minion master) staff is a weapon type that is used in almost all builds and is much more flexible then having to be a minion master to use these traits. Any decent Necromancer will tell you the only incentive to go into Death Magic at the moment is Greater Marks and Deadly Strength.

Replacing them with non-specific traits would see this tree have no obvious purpose, and I’m not sure if you noticed but every trait line on every class is themed.

The trait line is themed. The minor traits are not. Minor Traits need to either be generic (the stat conversions, for example) or self-supporting (Barbed Precision) Even though the staff is a general-use weapon, minor traits related to only it are a bad idea. It forces you to use Staff or have useless minors (in this case, the current ones are actually better since they are only mostly useless without a minion build, not completely).

On other classes, the closest we get to having skill-specific minors (either utility or weapon) is the Guardian Zeal line, which influences symbols on its minor traits. However, 4/6 main-hand weapons have a symbol skill, which provides much more variety than being locked into Staff to get any use. Even if a Guardian runs Sword and Scepter in their two weapon sets, the minor traits at 15 and 25 aren’t useless because the 5 point minor creates a symbol itself!

What you are suggesting may be an improvement in your eyes, but it is no better than the current minors we have in that line and, in fact, is worse. While I agree that we need different minor traits in Death magic, at least Reanimator means Protection of the Horde still does something, even if we don’t run any minion skills. With what you are suggesting, then it’s Run Staff or GTFO of Death Magic. You want Shrouded Removal, Reaper’s Protection, or any minion traits? Well, you’re locked into staff as one weapon.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ascii.9726:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m not sure you get it. The problem with the minor traits right now is that they only really work for one kind of build (using minions). What you propose is bad because it does the same thing (only works for using staff). You may like it more, but it still creates the same problem, just with a different culprit.

No, i dont think you get it.

There traits that are bound to a build type/ utility type (minion master) staff is a weapon type that is used in almost all builds and is much more flexible then having to be a minion master to use these traits. Any decent Necromancer will tell you the only incentive to go into Death Magic at the moment is Greater Marks and Deadly Strength.

Replacing them with non-specific traits would see this tree have no obvious purpose, and I’m not sure if you noticed but every trait line on every class is themed.

The trait line is themed. The minor traits are not. Minor Traits need to either be generic (the stat conversions, for example) or self-supporting (Barbed Precision) Even though the staff is a general-use weapon, minor traits related to only it are a bad idea. It forces you to use Staff or have useless minors (in this case, the current ones are actually better since they are only mostly useless without a minion build, not completely).

On other classes, the closest we get to having skill-specific minors (either utility or weapon) is the Guardian Zeal line, which influences symbols on its minor traits. However, 4/6 main-hand weapons have a symbol skill, which provides much more variety than being locked into Staff to get any use. Even if a Guardian runs Sword and Scepter in their two weapon sets, the minor traits at 15 and 25 aren’t useless because the 5 point minor creates a symbol itself!

What you are suggesting may be an improvement in your eyes, but it is no better than the current minors we have in that line and, in fact, is worse. While I agree that we need different minor traits in Death magic, at least Reanimator means Protection of the Horde still does something, even if we don’t run any minion skills. With what you are suggesting, then it’s Run Staff or GTFO of Death Magic. You want Shrouded Removal, Reaper’s Protection, or any minion traits? Well, you’re locked into staff as one weapon.

While I have great respect for Ascii, I think Drarnor’s right here. While I’d love getting a free staff mastery at 5 and Greater Marks at 15, this is the same type of specific minor trait pigeonholing that makes Reanimator and PotH annoying. What’s more, I could be wrong but I don’t believe there are any other classes which receive a mastery-type trait at so low a cost, or as a minor for that matter.

Personally, I think moving Dark Armor or Spiteful Vigor to 5 and Reaper’s Protection or Shrouded Removal at 15 seem like good options.

BTW, Siphoned Power is ridiculous, especially for a GM tiered minor. The only worse minor trait at that tier is the warrior’s Reviver’s Might, I think.

Nagato no Kami.4980:

What’s more, I could be wrong but I don’t believe there are any other classes which receive a mastery-type trait at so low a cost, or as a minor for that matter.

Only one I can think of is Illusionist’s Celerity for Mesmers, but that affects a wide variety of skills (all clones and phantasms) and it is impossible to make a Mesmer that doesn’t have illusion access (since all weapons have them).

On the note of Siphoned Power, what are thoughts on my suggestion in the OP?

Kiriakulos.1690:

Vampiric – Recover HP whenever you gain LifeForce. 50% of gained LifeForce is added to your current HP but HP recovered is capped at 50% of your current HealingPower (If you gained 2000 LF but had only 1000 healing power you’d be healed for only 500 HP).
1 Second ICD.

Might as well gain life when you gain lifeforce.

While I like the idea, I don’t think it should have an ICD. That would punish Dagger and Axe users unfairly. On Dagger, the trait would proc on the 2% life force gain in the third swing of the chain, then be on cooldown for the 6% gain on the fourth hit. On axe, it would proc once on a single 1.5% gain, then proc again on a second 1.5% gain. While they gained 12% life force, they only would get the healing from a quarter of that.

Thoguth about this in the patch thread (changed a bit here)

Spite:

• Death into Life (15): I think this trait is irrelevant, if there is no vampiric build available. No matter how much % he grands. This means, necros need better heal from from siphons probably with a -10% from healing skill per siphon trait used (?) so you are changing active with passive heal.
• Siphoned Power(25): Who the hell needs 1 stack of might, when he is nearly dead? No one. probably increase this to 5 stacks or an other stat i.e. protection. Or why not get 20% Lifeforce? Everything is better than 1 Might@25%Hp.
• Spiteful Talisman (II): This trait is good, but does not synergies well with necros other main-hand weapons (900 range max.)
• reaper’s might(VI): Nice idea, but life blast has a way to slow attackspeed (on land) to get a good benefit out of this trait.
• Spitefull Marks (VII): Marks deal to less direct damage, so this

Curses:

• Target the weak (25): Relatively weak, compared to other traits i.e. warrior who gets 10% for a single bleed. And it only boosts direct damage, but if you play condition necro your damage is so low, that it makes no difference.

Death Magic:

• Reanimator (5): Merge this trait with any other minion trait. If I don’t use minions this is wasted 5 points merge it with minion master (III) and add “+20 toughness for every condition on you”
• Protection of the Hord (15): Same as reanimator, non minion masters get nothing. merge with Flesh of the master (X) and add probably a “gain toughness based on DS level” not sure here, but it should be something with +toughness because of deadly strength
• Dark Armor (I): with 2500 armor this is a 16% damage reduction while using 6 skills on 6 different weapons (one while downed) for 2,5-3,5s. I think it is not worth using it compared to other traits here. probably grand 3s protection when using a channeling skill?
• Staff Mastery (V): Just cosmetic, include a permanent scythe to the staff if used.
• Necromatic corruption (XII): Interesting, but to weak compared to Death nova and there is no grandmaster trait for non MM. Probably something with boons, so the 30% duration are worth it?
  I know those traits should synergies with each other, but 1 jagged horror = +20 toughness and therefore +1 power. Channeling skills will get +20 power (that is less than 1% more damage) they synergies but it is not worth it.

Blood Magic:

• Here I have to say it sucks, that dagger, well and siphon traits share the same line. I think it would be nice to have a dagger-vampiric(fast attacks), vampiric-well(multiple hits) or dagger-well(high damage) build, but all the important traits are in the same line and that sucks. There are so many builds i have in mind, that would require 50+ points in that trait line. A split of this line would be nice to allow different builds, but I haven’t figured out how to do so.
• vampiric (15): only effected by 0,5% from healing power (1288 = +6 heal). That is to less for a vampiric build. Make this trait our main healing source with a coefficient of 5% while reducing our healing skill by 10% (not sure about the numbers)
• Blood is Power (25): even with the increased numbers, this trait is bad it is only a <5% (@2500 attack) damage boost while >75% health, for a full zerker it is <4% (without might). what about a fixed +10% more damge here?
• Bloodthirst (II): probably needs changes due to vampiric change
• Vampiric Prcision (V): +10% from 5% from healing power, decreases healing skill by 10%
• Transfusion (VI): Should scale with healing power, to make a heal support necro viable
• Vampiric Master (VII): Not sure about this, because I never used it. Should be the same as other Siphons, but not that strong.
• Vampiric Rituals(XII):
  In the end you should be able to get much more health with the vampiric traits, than with your normal heal. Because you selected those traits and you have to hit the enemy as well to benefit from it. But I am not sure about all the numbers I used up there.

Soul Reaping:

• Path of Midnight (III): Only 15%, while other traits reduce CD by 20%

Oh and of course some general changes, for example to get heal while in DS.

E: For something to replace reanimator and Protection of the hord, it should be something, that grands toughness, to boost @25. Look at other trait lines (especcially warriors) and you will se what i mean

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Nagato no Kami.4980:

What’s more, I could be wrong but I don’t believe there are any other classes which receive a mastery-type trait at so low a cost, or as a minor for that matter.

Only one I can think of is Illusionist’s Celerity for Mesmers, but that affects a wide variety of skills (all clones and phantasms) and it is impossible to make a Mesmer that doesn’t have illusion access (since all weapons have them).

On the note of Siphoned Power, what are thoughts on my suggestion in the OP?

Kiriakulos.1690:

Vampiric – Recover HP whenever you gain LifeForce. 50% of gained LifeForce is added to your current HP but HP recovered is capped at 50% of your current HealingPower (If you gained 2000 LF but had only 1000 healing power you’d be healed for only 500 HP).
1 Second ICD.

Might as well gain life when you gain lifeforce.

While I like the idea, I don’t think it should have an ICD. That would punish Dagger and Axe users unfairly. On Dagger, the trait would proc on the 2% life force gain in the third swing of the chain, then be on cooldown for the 6% gain on the fourth hit. On axe, it would proc once on a single 1.5% gain, then proc again on a second 1.5% gain. While they gained 12% life force, they only would get the healing from a quarter of that.

Well, from what I can see, all other minor traits that give might do so for much longer durations (10-15 seconds) and have far less dire requirements to proc. “Hey, I’m gonna die. Thank goodness for that one stack of might for five seconds, huh?”

Anyhoo, this is an interesting idea but I’m not sure why ANet thought might needed to get involved as straight damage increases abound throughout the classes. Personally, I’d like to see a permanent, tiered increase in damage as we get closer to death with a cap of, say, 9% damage at 25% health. I think this fits with the necro theme and provides some incentive to edge without making it overpowered.

I feel like gaining Might is preferable in the Necro’s case as % damage increases only apply to straight damage while Might applies to both straight and condition damage. It also indirectly boosts the 15 point minor by giving us more Power to convert.

As far as gaining Might on low health, that alone I don’t see as a problem, it’s the fact that the Might we do get is so pointless in intensity. Hence, my suggestion in the OP of having the initial threshold much higher, but getting geometrically increasing stacks as we get lower on health.

I’ll post here in a few when I have time, because my answer is going to take way too much time, lol.

Thanks for opening the discussion though, I think its helpful for us (and devs) to have limited trait discussions to keeping functionality.

Again? Well fine. My goal here is to not create traits that are “must have” but you could still take them if you were bored.

Spite-- This tree tends to focus on damage, damage, and more damage. It is because Axe Training and Close to Death put everything to shame, and everything else feels like filler.

Spiteful Tailsman: It actually works
Yea, I don’t think that’s being unreasonable at all to have a trait does what the tooltip says.

Spiteful Removal: Also transfers 1 condition to a foe
Might give a reason to take it in big fights, and goes along with necromancer themes.

Reaper’s Might: Also grants 1 stack of might upon entering Death Shroud
It’s already a good trait, but it’s not one I’d rush to use atm— more filler than anything else.

Training of the Master: + damage and Activating a Minion skill has additional effects:
Flesh Golem Charge Cripples
Bone Fiend immobilize chills
Shadow Fiend Blind causes vulnerability
Flesh Wurm Teleport causes you to gain swiftness

Taking this trait to go minions is a pretty big sacrifice if you use axe since you’d lose either close to death or axe training. Actually traiting minions is just a big sacrifice is in general, so this makes it close to the Guardian’s inspired Virtues but much more expensive. It really needs to be that good.

Siphoned Power: Activates when below 50%
What’s the point of getting it when you’re almost dead?

Curses-- Pretty much a perfectly designed tree, and my favorite one. It could just use one thing…
Withering Precision— Reduce Duration to 4 seconds, 5 second internal cooldown

The long ICD makes it not worth 30 points.

Death Magic-- It focuses on minions and staff, and promptly gets ignored except for staff traits

Reanimator- is merged with Protection of the Horde at 15 pts
2 traits nobody really would miss. For the sake of color, just confine it to 5 points.

Dark Armor— Also -50% CC Duration when channeling

New Master Trait— Poisonous Strength— 7% of toughness goes to condition damage.
Death magic to be a staff user’s tree, so boosting the condition damage by a little should help.

Death Shiver— Also chills
Look at that name!

Death Nova— The explosion also blinds

Flesh of the Master— Also allows for one extra bone warrior
For even more meat

Blood Magic-- What are we gonna do with you? You’re so lame, so…

Merge Vampiric Precision into Bloodthirst
Merge Vampiric Wells with Ritual Mastery

So we don’t have to pick which crappy trait to take, thanks. If Siphoning is to remain subpar, then give it along with actually useful things.

New Grandmaster Trait— Master of Vampirism— Heals and siphons work in Death Shroud, and healing power scales 10% more with all siphon abilities. If you put 30 points in this tree, you should deserve to overcome this restriction that plagues all necromancers.

Soul Reaping-- Another well designed tree that has a ton of synergy. Not much is needed at all.

Speed of Shadows— Not capped by movement speed cap.
It’s kinda useless that it is…. let us run away.

Foot in the Grave— Breaks stun
Now that would just be amazing, if only…

Bhawb.7408:

Thanks for opening the discussion though, I think its helpful for us (and devs) to have limited trait discussions to keeping functionality.

Yeah, I figured it would be a better idea than just asking people what they wanted flat-out. A lot of the bad traits we have, I really like the idea behind, but the execution is terrible. On a number of them, I don’t feel we need a new trait to replace it, just a tweak to make them worth taking. I was curious to see how many felt the same way and what ideas there were to accomplish it.

I think necro needs more stability so I’d say to add a grandmaster trait for spectral skills to grant stability for 3~5 seconds.

Anyways I like a lot of the ideas already. I couldn’t agree more about fixing death tree. MM is cool and all but some of those traits give amazing bonuses for other builds but then makes the minion related mini traits useless. Jagged horror is awful btw.