Guild Wars 2

Hi, so I am making a set of gear for PvE on my necro, and I like to play with axe/dagger/focus and staff if i need to.

I was just wondering what is the highest dps for a dungeon necro…

Is it full berserker with a setup like 30/10/0/0/30 ?

Or is the 30/30/0/0/10 Hybrid dps spec superior overall.

Im taking bosses and trash into consideration. I enjoy playing either spec so Im just looking for the best performance.

Look up Nemesis’ hybrid necro guide. I believe hybrid has the highest raw DPS, and more reliable damage so long as no one is pushing off your condis.

Okay, and if I recall the best gear setup for the Hybrid used celestial accessories with rampager armor.

I know they changed celestial gear recently… did they nerf the stats on it or did they just take off the MF%? If they did nerf the stat spread, is it still the best for that hybrid build? Ill check out Nemesis’ thread, I wasn’t sure if it was up to date with the celestial changes/patches.

Its just the MF

For bosses (that means single target) power is the way to go. For trash go conditions.

Hybrid is one solution. The solution I like is to have two sets of gears (rabid and berserker) so with a 30/30/0/0/10 you can go as a condimancer or as a daggermancer just by changing gear and traits on the go. That way your are better in both aspects than with an hybrid build.

Hmm that is a decent option. I already have full rabid so I guess I could go 30/30///10 and swtch between berserkers.

So full power/crit is better single target than hybrid/celestial/rampagers?

If I recall correctly, nemesis claims that hybrid does 60% the damage of a glass power build single-target wise; an does 60% the damage of a condition build multi-target wise.

hybrid is balanced between glass cannon and conditionmancer. U have decent aoe cover with conditions and imba dps for single target. On hybrid hiting spark veteran I did almost 13k dmg with ghastly claws. Still having some def and hp to survive heavy dmg from multiple mobs.
In wvw it works great. If aponent starts running away conditions will get him to the ground. Dps with condition mix is preaty heavy on aponents.
Im runing sce/dag and axe/foc, on wall or zerg i switch to staff.

For organised groups.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIhhu1IjW6elmxGDfCA6Ru46cMjjXm+w6A-jAyAYrBRTRgpMgUBgkXR0YLuFRjVXjpcJiqBA-e

I wouldnt recommend a necro over other classes but this build provides dps comparable to other classes in dungeons. Its the build you want to run if your going to take a necro into organised groups.

30/10/0/0/30 suffers from low crit chance out of DS which results in low dps. Also dps with lifeblast is bad so dont use it. Hybrid builds suffer from the same problems condition builds suffer from in dungeons, although they arent rendered completely useless in those situations atleast. Still wouldnt recommend for regular dungeons due to how many mechanics are very anti condition or because some bosses/mobs die too fast to build up conditions. You are better off doing as much raw damage as possible.

Hybrid can be good in fractals due to the generally longer kill times though.

For general/pugged/relaxed dungeoneering, Nemesis’s Hybrid (or any similar variation) would be my advice: versatile, decent in both direct and condition dmg, and quite flexible to play.

If you’re looking for straight up best dmg, look no further than spoj’s build.

hamartia has two nice build suggestions

Necromancer:
Dagger builds beat Deathshroud builds by around 20% due to higher base damage of Dagger 1. Traits may look bad, but this gets you all the damage boosts you can have:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIhhu1IjWlexm6G9eCA6Ru96cMjjXm+Q5A-jQyAYrBRTUgpMgUhAl8KiGbxtIasqFMVJRUt3oIa1A-e

30/10/0/0/30 Deathshroud build:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/83937-build-the-shredder-destroyer-of-all/

Sadly, the new Deathshroud builds, while super fun, can’t match pure dagger DPS unless your groups need you to stack vulnerability.

On Weapons:
Dagger is max DPS outside of Deathshroud. Traited Axe is most DPS in Deathshroud. Staff is second best DPS in Deathshroud. Without traits, Staff has the best Deathshroud damage.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/

Which is essentially my build but with a bad sigil and a trait that you will never use (signet mastery).

spoj.9672:

Which is essentially my build but with a bad sigil and a trait that you will never use (signet mastery).

didnt even notice; i just specifically recall the part about dagger builds outdpsing deathshroud builds

Linguistically Inept.6583:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/

So many things wrong in terms of necro there… A) Staff does always more as the DS base than axe, even if traited.
B) Dagger is sadly melee thus you cannot keep the dps for the entire fight in most cases, also Life blast is technically our cleave
C) One does not simply ignore better traits for the quite worthless Banshees Wail (seriously the trait is never worth it, even if you wanna get a bit more LF from 5 now that the stun sigils have been fixed)

Andele.1306:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84416-guide-minmax-dungeon-groups-with-any-class-composition/

So many things wrong in terms of necro there… A) Staff does always more as the DS base than axe, even if traited.
B) Dagger is sadly melee thus you cannot keep the dps for the entire fight in most cases, also Life blast is technically our cleave
C) One does not simply ignore better traits for the quite worthless Banshees Wail (seriously the trait is never worth it, even if you wanna get a bit more LF from 5 now that the stun sigils have been fixed)

a. last i checked (with steady weapons in spvp) traited axe DID do more lifeblast damage than staff
b. melee is fine for the vast majority of pve (and if you have to back off for a short amount of time – for example; archdiviner aoe spam right underneath himself – theres still dagger#2 and life blast)
c. not my build, but theres not really anything better to take in that slot (maybe reapers precision… but dagger… so kitten ton of life force anyway)… and does it affect the duration of locust swarm? wiki seems to imply that it just affects swiftness… and im too lazy to check… but if it does make locusts last longer then its a damage increase

edit
oh… and ofcourse recharge rate… locust swarm being a 600 (base) damage aoe (just higher than the first three hits on dagger AA)

Andele.1306:

So many things wrong in terms of necro there… A) Staff does always more as the DS base than axe, even if traited.
B) Dagger is sadly melee thus you cannot keep the dps for the entire fight in most cases, also Life blast is technically our cleave
C) One does not simply ignore better traits for the quite worthless Banshees Wail (seriously the trait is never worth it, even if you wanna get a bit more LF from 5 now that the stun sigils have been fixed)

A) Cant comment, both are bad weapons that I dont use.
B) I have no problem meleeing everything in dungeons full time on a necro. Some encounters like lupi require energy sigils though.
C) Banshees wail is a ridiculously good trait. Locust swarm provides a pretty big dps increase and when its traited to last 4 seconds longer and have 4.5 second shorter cooldown it becomes a no brainer to take that trait.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

c. not my build, but theres not really anything better to take in that slot (maybe reapers precision… but dagger… so kitten ton of life force anyway)… and does it affect the duration of locust swarm? wiki seems to imply that it just affects swiftness… and im too lazy to check… but if it does make locusts last longer then its a damage increase

Yep both swiftness and duration of locusts are increased to 14 seconds. When I tested it locust swarm ticked 13 times when traited, didnt test untraited. So it probably goes from 9-10 ticks to 13 ticks. You end up having about 11.5 second downtime on locust swarm when traited, compared to about 20 seconds when not traited. Pretty massive difference.

spoj.9672:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

c. not my build, but theres not really anything better to take in that slot (maybe reapers precision… but dagger… so kitten ton of life force anyway)… and does it affect the duration of locust swarm? wiki seems to imply that it just affects swiftness… and im too lazy to check… but if it does make locusts last longer then its a damage increase

Yep both swiftness and duration of locusts are increased to 14 seconds. When I tested it locust swarm ticked 13 times when traited, didnt test untraited. So it probably goes from 9-10 ticks to 13 ticks. You end up having about 11.5 second downtime on locust swarm when traited, compared to about 20 seconds when not traited. Pretty massive difference.

despite stating that i was too lazy to check… i did actually end up testing it (just because my necro was in HotM anyway), yep it goes from 10 to 13 ticks

- also updated wiki page… though my wording sucks

Im not sure I am good enough to maintain melee range dps, but my current setup is dagger/horn axe/focus.

I have been using dagger auto, and when i am forced out of melee i use axe2 and life blast until i can switch back into dagger melee.

30/25///15 hadn’t occurred to me. I will give it a shot, and if I find that I fail at good melee uptime, I will probably go back to 30 SR until I get better.

You can go 30/25/0/0/15 with dagger warhorn and axe focus until you are used to meleeing all encounters. You can also swap chill of death for axe mastery if you find you like using the axe. Axe isnt optimal but obviously it can be good while you’re learning or when you need a bit of range. Lifeblasting hits harder in that build aswell due to target the weak. The downside is not having 99% crit chance in DS (crit chance is capped). But honestly deathly perception is massive waste of a trait and its funny how when it got introduced everyone started using it thinking it was amazing and improves necro so much. Its really not that good as a full DS build is really not that good. If I was ever going to go 30 into SR it would be for foot in the grave.

Andele.1306:

A) Staff does always more as the DS base than axe, even if traited.

heres some testing i did
http://imgur.com/a/xwRkU

from this it appears
staff>axe
staff = axe w/ axe training
staff w/sigil of force = axe / axe training and sigil of force
staff w/sigil of force < axe w/axe training, sigil of force and OFFHAND sigil (i used lightning on the focus in the example)
not sure how that translates into non steady weapons though… too annoying to check

… i was lazy and just uploaded all screenshots… and dont know how to delete them from the album (cause im nub)

… and looking at these reminds me to reset my graphics settings (was champtraining in frostgorge a while ago)

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Andele.1306:

A) Staff does always more as the DS base than axe, even if traited.

heres some testing i did
http://imgur.com/a/xwRkU

from this it appears
staff>axe
staff = axe w/ axe training
staff w/sigil of force = axe / axe training and sigil of force
staff w/sigil of force < axe w/axe training, sigil of force and OFFHAND sigil (i used lightning on the focus in the example)
not sure how that translates into non steady weapons though… too annoying to check

… i was lazy and just uploaded all screenshots… and dont know how to delete them from the album (cause im nub)

… and looking at these reminds me to reset my graphics settings (was champtraining in frostgorge a while ago)

Also keep in mind damage modifiers are multiplicative so the more you introduce the more axe training is going to overtake the base staff lifeblast damage.

spoj.9672:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Andele.1306:

A) Staff does always more as the DS base than axe, even if traited.

heres some testing i did
http://imgur.com/a/xwRkU

from this it appears
staff>axe
staff = axe w/ axe training
staff w/sigil of force = axe / axe training and sigil of force
staff w/sigil of force < axe w/axe training, sigil of force and OFFHAND sigil (i used lightning on the focus in the example)
not sure how that translates into non steady weapons though… too annoying to check

… i was lazy and just uploaded all screenshots… and dont know how to delete them from the album (cause im nub)

… and looking at these reminds me to reset my graphics settings (was champtraining in frostgorge a while ago)

Also keep in mind damage modifiers are multiplicative so the more you introduce the more axe training is going to overtake the base staff lifeblast damage.

i thought there was something i was missing…

Basically with your modifiers from close to death, target the weak or strength of undeath. Its gonna make axe training lifeblasts much stronger than staff lifeblasts. More so if you use scholar runes and 10% dmg potions.

I’m 30/20/0/0/20 on my Hybrid. Was originally 30/25/15 but I switched for Near To Death (lowers DS cooldown) Scepter/Dagger Axe/Focus. Loving it so far, survivable & pretty good damage. I went with Rampager armor with Undead Runes (to poor for Divinity Runes) I might switch to Travelers still debating, Celestial jewelry. Still working on getting my 2 rings, once I do get them I might switch back to get Target the Weak.

Keep in mind, staff is flat out higher in terms of weapon damage (even more so now with ascended weapons), just for the sake of simplicity and the fact that not everyone got maxed out weapons now staff does 120 (240 with full power, 480 on full zerker build) more minimum damage and 60 (120 and 240 respectively) more at max, now add all the additional multipliers and might, bloodlust signet buffs to it if you want and you get quite the big difference, since unlike what spoj things, you can add all the bonuses (- trait ofc) to staff (which btw is the best weapon necro has; regen, chill, transfer and CC, if you dont have it in the second weapon set on some build that isnt a niche as kitten kitten; like cof farm build was, you are plain bad).

Also spoj please show me how you melee(ed) Mai Trin or the spider room in TA or the Arah path 4 god priest bosses.
Also something id love you to melee is the claw of jormag, it will be so much fun.

spoj.9672:

You have more multipliers with axe training and an axe. I havent worked out the maths but ive tested ingame when i was trying out deathly perception. Axe with axe training did hit harder than staff. Obviously with the testing Inept has shown that that is not the case when using minimum traits and no gear. But when you factor in crit damage and all the modifiers it does out dps staff life blast. Otherwise how do you explain why my axe life blast wakittenting harder than staff consistantly when I was testing it?

I didnt take my necro into AR. Not sure what encounter your talking about in TA because everyone melees everything in TA. If you are referring to TAFU final boss then you can no longer range that boss due to all adds aggroing when you hit the boss, the method to do it now is the standard method organised groups use which is melee under reflects and projectile blocks. Or melee and dps as fast as you can b4 they spawn to much and dodge the spawns, or the boring pug tactic of kiting round in circles. Melandru priest in path 4 can be melee’d with chain interrupts and everyone standing in a certain spot, only time its worth doing that is if your going for a record time or something. Honestly sometimes I think you dont even play the game.

Confirmation, spoj is getting carried trough all the encounters by the warriors he ran CoF and other farm with and doesnt know how to use the best weapon necro has, point closed~

Did you really just report my post for saying I dont think you play the game? lol.

Think what you want. You are obviously just upset that everytime you try and call me out I come up with a valid counter arguement which proves you dont really know as much as you think you do.

Andele.1306:

how you melee(ed)…or the spider room in TA

…
you mean the stone touches and other trash? you can well bomb them easily (hell; if you go ranged then they scatter everywhere and it takes annoyingly long)
you mean… is it malrona? the big spider? thats easy to melee… predictable attack pattern (squirt>barrage>squirt>barrage, always stay to the side so you dont get squirted and learn to dodge at the right time to evade the one hit barrage)
… i hope you dont mean fiona? thats set to auto attack>alt tab>check facebook

or do you mean the spider tree?… in which case id suggest you go over to the dungeon sub forum, they have a number of useful strategies (well… one… and another that is… meh)

Andele is convinced being able to melee everything in dungeons is exploiting though. And he seems to think skipping is exploiting because its not allowed in wow and other mmo’s. Even though devs have recently stated that some mobs are designed to be skipped.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

or do you mean the spider tree?… in which case id suggest you go over to the dungeon sub forum, they have a number of useful strategies (well… one… and another that is… meh)

The oakheart/giant tree and yeah i have read them and you kinda cannot do it in a pug.. also they fixed the dodge trick when the eggs fall/on spawn command thing a while ago.
For short fact is there are a lot of bosses that if not plain require are encouraged to be fought at range, while other at melee and even those require some heavy repositioning or aoe evasion times where you are plain lose more dps by doing nothing than dropping (a tad weaker than the melee) ranged attacks n skills.
Also staff on necro is the equivalent of focus on mesmer, greatsword on warrior, etc with how the profession was designed.

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Andele.1306:

how you melee(ed)…or the spider room in TA

…
you mean the stone touches and other trash? you can well bomb them easily (hell; if you go ranged then they scatter everywhere and it takes annoyingly long)
you mean… is it malrona? the big spider? thats easy to melee… predictable attack pattern (squirt>barrage>squirt>barrage, always stay to the side so you dont get squirted and learn to dodge at the right time to evade the one hit barrage)
… i hope you dont mean fiona? thats set to auto attack>alt tab>check facebook

or do you mean the spider tree?… in which case id suggest you go over to the dungeon sub forum, they have a number of useful strategies (well… one… and another that is… meh)

You want to get hit by the poison squirt. Makes you do 6x damage so its important to tell the group not to cleanse the poison. And if he means clearing the trash before malrona them im cringing. Every semi decent pug pulls them into the tunnel and LoS melees them. Inb4 Andele says LoS is exploiting.

Andele.1306:

The oakheart/giant tree and yeah i have read them and you kinda cannot do it in a pug.. also they fixed the dodge trick when the eggs fall/on spawn command thing a while ago.
For short fact is there are a lot of bosses that if not plain require are encouraged to be fought at range, while other at melee and even those require some heavy repositioning or aoe evasion times where you are plain lose more dps by doing nothing than dropping (a tad weaker than the melee) ranged attacks n skills.
Also staff on necro is the equivalent of focus on mesmer, greatsword on warrior, etc with how the profession was designed.

The dodge still works and ive heard of plenty of pugs doing it by kiting around the boss. Also dont see why pugs cant adapt and take reflections. Only classes without a projectile block skill are warriors and necros.

Please name a boss that requires ranged combat. A few dodges does not equate to less dps than ranged attacks. Some bosses force ranged players to dodge atleast something and if not then they are poorly designed and just encourage akitteng.

Theres nothing on the staff that my group or I need. Fear is counter productive, aoe damage i can get from other sources, dont need regen and i can deal with conditions with utilities or someone else in the group can deal with them. Please tell my why staff is so important for every necro, because the only time i ever used it is on the legendary imbued shaman for the range and aoe. Didnt need it though, could of taken scepter or axe.

Andele.1306:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

or do you mean the spider tree?… in which case id suggest you go over to the dungeon sub forum, they have a number of useful strategies (well… one… and another that is… meh)

The oakheart/giant tree and yeah i have read them and you kinda cannot do it in a pug.. also they fixed the dodge trick when the eggs fall/on spawn command thing a while ago.
For short fact is there are a lot of bosses that if not plain require are encouraged to be fought at range, while other at melee and even those require some heavy repositioning or aoe evasion times where you are plain lose more dps by doing nothing than dropping (a tad weaker than the melee) ranged attacks n skills.
Also staff on necro is the equivalent of focus on mesmer, greatsword on warrior, etc with how the profession was designed.

so because you cant do it in a pug it means its impossible… obviously; stupid me.

spoj.9672:

You want to get hit by the poison squirt. Makes you do 6x damage so its important to tell the group not to cleanse the poison

really? never noticed that… guess ive been doing it wrong… but better than the pugs i was with (staying ranged… until they see im not dying… then thinking that they can melee as well… and dying because they cant dodge… or those guards without WoR shudder)

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Andele.1306:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

or do you mean the spider tree?… in which case id suggest you go over to the dungeon sub forum, they have a number of useful strategies (well… one… and another that is… meh)

The oakheart/giant tree and yeah i have read them and you kinda cannot do it in a pug.. also they fixed the dodge trick when the eggs fall/on spawn command thing a while ago.
For short fact is there are a lot of bosses that if not plain require are encouraged to be fought at range, while other at melee and even those require some heavy repositioning or aoe evasion times where you are plain lose more dps by doing nothing than dropping (a tad weaker than the melee) ranged attacks n skills.
Also staff on necro is the equivalent of focus on mesmer, greatsword on warrior, etc with how the profession was designed.

so because you cant do it in a pug it means its impossible… obviously; stupid me.

spoj.9672:

You want to get hit by the poison squirt. Makes you do 6x damage so its important to tell the group not to cleanse the poison

really? never noticed that… guess ive been doing it wrong… but better than the pugs i was with (staying ranged… until they see im not dying… then thinking that they can melee as well… and dying because they cant dodge… or those guards without WoR shudder)

No actually unless you are doing a speed run and/or using the bugged nature of whirlwind, blazing speed, etc (as in playing the game as intended) the big spiders use their pull/immob attack and plain swam kill you.
Also noone said reflects are bad (they are technically in some cases where attacks obviously aint ment to be reflected, proof being in deadeye nerf and tons of videos on youtube), but you cannot keep it up 24/7.
As for encounters that encourage ranged again i give you arah god bosses, AR, most of MF, the Mad king dungeon, most of AC, most of SE and every meta event boss ever.

And if you want my additional blunt honestly, im tired of idiots (i wont name them but they regularly get into arguments with me and lose each time) trying to ruin the game just as what happened with WoW, the vocal minority that doesnt understand what working for your rewards means OR plain having fun with a boss encounter pulling the attention of the devs.

Only bosses we range in arah are the legendary ooze and priest of melandru. AR, didnt range any of it, it was easy with condi removal. MF, didnt range any of it. Missed halloween. AC, dont range any encounter in that either. Same with SE. And I dont see how any of them encourage range. Because technically all bosses encourage bad players to range.

Most bosses are poorly designed. Its not our fault that they are so easy. Melee is supposed to be higher risk higher reward, but bosses tend to either glitch or really arent that hard in melee once you get use to them or counter them with reflects, blinds, stability and w/e. The best designed boss in the game is lupi and I really enjoy fighting him melee. Anet should design more bosses with the same quality as lupi.

Also never seen those larger spiders on the nightmare tree pull/imobalize. They walk up to you in melee and bite hard and poison. Really kills a group if you dont deal with the tree fast enough or dodge the spawns.

Andele.1306:

No actually unless you are doing a speed run.

there are good high damage pug players, i had some amazing CoE groups back when i used to farm it for lodestones (and some really really bad ones) that can do this.

Andele.1306:

Also noone said reflects are bad (they are technically in some cases where attacks obviously aint ment to be reflected, proof being in deadeye nerf and tons of videos on youtube), but you cannot keep it up 24/7.

better proof would be bosses with completely unblockable projectiles (the dredge boss near the clown car or tomcatgolems poison whirl) which good experienced players know about, malronas one hit barrage attack is reflectable; meaning nice damage and some party security (any decent guard who has ran that path before should be using WoR at that fight)

Andele.1306:

As for encounters that encourage ranged again i give you arah god bosses, AR, most of MF, the Mad king dungeon, most of AC, most of SE and every meta event boss ever.

i barely remember the mad king fight… other than i did it on my ranger back when i thought ranged was best (and scarecrows summoning birds… and getting the crossing) so cant comment
mai trin was easier if people werent ranging about everywhere (because you knew the cannon was going to land on mai trin if you all were in melee range)
that golem boss was nicely thought out (but the camera -as with gauntlet- sucked) in that it is near impossible to melee the golems down
AC i havent done since the revamp (a very long time) but all the bosses were easily meleeable (troll a bit harder; but could be done)
SE… only boss i havent meleed is the golem duo at the end of p2 (cant remember story other than the terminator boss)
meta bosses are extremely poorly designed (for so many different reasons.)… but still theres people who go up and bash the feet of teq, chin of behe and stump(?) of golemMk2

Andele.1306:

the vocal minority that doesnt understand what working for your rewards means

because being melee and highly squishy isnt hard? is being highly squishy -or worse; highly tanky- and ranged HARDER? do you work more for it? no… you dont

Andele.1306:

OR plain having fun with a boss encounter pulling the attention of the devs.

wow; really? you have more fun standing well away from things doing less than possible damage? because i have fun being right up in things faces with a full team, killing it before it can do anything… thats not wrong; the irony being that you’re saying melee is bad because you dont like it/cant do it

to clarify; i have nothing against how you want to play (though i probably wont like playing with you), but dont say people playing well and efficiently are playing badly

I think you guys are underselling lifeblast when it is traited with unyielding blast and deathly perception.

On my zerker 30/0/10/0/30 build, I have a base crit chance of 49% after food buffs, and a crit damage of 252%. I’ll use this as a standard for crit mods.

The dagger does base 940 damage over 2 seconds, having a DPS of roughly 470. Life Blast does base 341, but 10% extra with axe or staff, so this comes to 375 over 1.5 seconds, or 250 base damage per second.

With deathly perception, LIfe blast has a 99% chance to crit. So, the appropriate crit mods for each of them is 1.745 for the dagger, and 2.504 for Life Blast. This comes up with an adjusted base damage of:

Dagger: 820.15
Life Blast: 626 (436.25 W/O deathly perception)

On any single target, Dagger will outdamage life blast. With piercing life blast from Unyielding Blast, if Life Blast were to hit more than 1 target, then Life Blast outdamages the dagger.

So life blast is definitely a viable form of offense. You just have to line up and hit multiple enemies with it.

Ye but thats completely situational and you can do some nice burst aoe and then resort to lifeblast for the rest of the trash. The point is taking a trait for a few situational trash encounters is really pointless. Especially when the single target dps on bosses is so bad with it.

I ran 6 fractals today with both builds each, and I think that DS build is more fun to play, but I definitely noticed higher dps with Spoj’s build. I was able to melee almost constantly, and when I wasnt, I could AE from a safe distance with DS4, staff, wells, etc.

The main thing I dislike about 30////30 is the lack of crit. I had full exotic berserker on plus one ascended piece, and without sigil I was only at 37% crit, I couldn’t believe it…

I don’t like having to rely on food and 25 stacks to reach 50% crit. However I do like the DS build because I feel it has better range damage, and its fun being shadowy all the time =)

30/25///15 is great though, because your dagger hits like a mack truck, and there are some great traits in curses. I also have 52% crit unbuffed now I think. I prefer to take a hit in crit damage and have a higher crit chance.

That’s why you get the 30 SR trait to have 50% crit chance. The build is more about spamming DS 1 than anything.

Bhawb.7408:

That’s why you get the 30 SR trait to have 50% crit chance. The build is more about spamming DS 1 than anything.

Yes but you shouldnt be staying in DS. Its lower dps and sometimes you need DS for defense. Every time you come out of DS for lifeforce you have even worse dps due to a horrid crit rate and having 100% crit chance in DS doesnt compensate for that. DS build is a gimmicky fun build, its not viable for serious play.

The big problem is, if you can hit 2 or more enemies (which I find myself capable of doing a lot), then DS has higher DPS than the dagger, and not using DS is gimping offense. Necromancers now generate a lot more lifeforce than before, so in dungeons it’ll be mere moments before the LF bar is full again. DS still sucks up damage while using life blast, so it is offensive and defense at the same time.

You say it is circumstantial. The only circumstance where the dagger will beat out life blast is with bosses who are alone and are safe to melee. I imagine this is the same reason why unyielding blast is in the build you posted.

I’ll post a build, too: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBHbhG2IjWlexm6G9eCB6x7VLOTUhjh6x64OfIA-jAyAYrBRTRApMwUhAl8KiGbxtIas6aMlLRUNA-e

So lets compare the effective power.

Your build:
2626 Power
58% crit chance
93% crit damage (243)

Effective Power: 4804

My build:
2876 Power
43% crit chance
108% crit damage

Effective Power: 4829

This, of course, isn’t going into all of the muddier details, like which can sustain 90% health easier or which stacks might easier, or food specific bonuses, or the elite skill. Really, there’s only two things I can see going for the build you posted that would give the dagger a greater advantage:

Furious Demise
Target the Weak

And I am not sure that all of that is worth it for the loss in damage you have by not using life blast to hit multiple targets. The DS build also gets Strength of Undeath.

All in all, I can’t fault one person for running either build, since at first, second, and third glance they are on equal footing.

Target the weak and furious demise arent dagger specific. Its not a loss of damage. Damage modifiers > crit damage and power, which is why you take as many of the best modifiers you can (highest dps guardian has 10 pts in power line and 0 in crit damage line). And a lack of crit chance effects your dps buy a huge amount. Effective power is not a valid comparison. I said life blast is bad dps on single target. That doesnt mean you cant use it in my build, infact lifeblast hits harder on my build when it crits, it just has a greater chance to fail to crit.

I dont understand why people cant accept a fun build as being pretty bad for dungeons. Everyone who has tried my build out properly has said its way better than 30/10/0/0/30. The only reason people are taking 30 in SR is for deathly perception. Higher crit chance and better modifiers are better than a situational trait, even in my build i lack crit chance, which is why i use sigil of perception. If you didnt have deathly perception would you really still go 30 in SR when it has no good offensive traits and provides less overall dps? You can still play a DS build with my trait setup, the traits on my build is the setup which squeezes the most dps out of any build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRAnd4djMaJ7FbqbM8JEoHvXt4MRFOGqHrj78hA-jADBYLDimiAkyAmIIQJPFRjtOMsVORr0JIaGYqSLqW5CwbgRrGA-e

this is my build for now until i get all the ascended jewl… forcing crit rate over 60% cos imo crit dmg > power dmg. With life blast + blood is power i can stack might to 25 counting vulnerability at 12 – 25. Posibility for might stack to 25 comes from runes (nemesises build) which boost might durability from 12 to 18s.
I use axe if im roming with a friend and dagger while soloing mobs.

Effective power is a very valid comparison for establishing base damage, especially when comparing builds. It is simple mathematics: you take the probability that you’ll crit, how hard you hit when you crit, and apply that to your amount of power to get the adjusted damage value. A player can throw all of the modifiers in the world at their build, but without a strong base power to go off of, those percents don’t mean anything. I think you are underestimating how much crit damage and power really affect DPS. Its one of the reasons why thieves hit so hard: their DPS builds all take 300 into critical strikes to get 30% crit damage and 300 precision to go with it.

Anyway, looking at modifiers becomes a bit more complicated, since most of the damage mods become conditional. But the only difference between the two builds is the presence of Target the Weak and Strength of Undeath. Thankfully, you can use these to adjust base power to get a representative base power out of your builds. So, looking at the total list of modifiers we have:

Force: 5%
Close to death: 20% (up around half the time, so we can say an average increase of 10%)
Scholar: 10% (at 90% health)

And we see how things become different. Personally, I’ve found that maintaining 90% health with the DS build is easier than maintaining 90% health with your build. How would one calculate this? For now, we’ll just assume the same base “skill” for both builds.

This leaves only one modifier that is different between the builds. So far, we have a 1.2705 increase to damage for both builds, setting them up to be

6103.4
6135.2

Now lets look at the different boosts. Strength of undead puts that second number at around 6442 for however long you maintain more than 50% DS. That’s pretty easy, actually, so we can say that one is up for 100% of the time. Target the weak depends on circumstances and team composition, but thankfully there’s a nice cutoff where target the weak surpasses strength of undead, and that is at 3 unique conditions. This makes the first number 6469.6, which then surpasses the Deathly Perception build by 0.44%. Then, each subsequent condition adds another 122 additional power to the first number.

This is when things get murkier. That build by itself can only really maintain 3 conditions on a champion constantly: bleeding, vulnerability, and then the alternation of weakness, cripple, and chill since those 3 are all shorter duration and champions cut down on weakness time. I suppose you could try and push it by using tainted shackles to get torment as well, so maybe around 4 conditions. Other teammates can probably supply poison, burning, and blind, so overall the modifier for target the weak can be put up to 7 condis on average, coming to a final value of 6958. So, to compare the two numbers, we have

6958
6442

Resulting in, at peak conditions, an 8% increase in power between the two builds.

That, by the way, is base power. This isn’t factoring deathly perception in at all. An issue I have with target the weak is that, while piling any one enemy you’ll definitely have multiple conditions up, but when fighting a group of enemies things become much more complicated, since you can’t always maintain more than 3 conditions on 3 enemies standing in a row.

The point being that, unless you have 4 or more conditions, Life Blast in your build doesn’t hit harder than my build BEFORE factoring in deathly perception. Now, lets factor in deathly perception.

Deathly perception changes the crit modifier (crit chance x crit damage + 1 – crit chance) from 1.68 to 2.47, giving an effective power while in DS of 7104 before modifiers. Including the modifiers (Force, CtD, Scholar, SoU), while in DS deathly perception gives a whopping total effective power of 9477!

So in average, in the DS build, Life blast hits a whole lot harder than your build. Whereas your build can get up to 8% advantage against bosses, my build hits 36% harder with all death shroud skills (including life transfer and tainted shackles for an AoE). On top of that, it has 15% more life force, whereas I doubt 250 condition damage is doing much for you. The math is staring you in the face; I don’t understand why you can’t accept that both builds are viable.

Are you taking in account attack speed?

That was done in an earlier post:

Dagger does 940 over 2 seconds, 470 DPS. Life Blast does 375 over 1.5 seconds, 250 DPS.

Without deathly perception, life blast does barely more damage than the dagger auto attack against 2 targets (like, 6% more). With it, life blast does 53% more damage against 2 targets, and even more against more.

Although I haven’t factored in the time for life transfer or tainted shackles…

Tainted shackles’ listed activation time is 0.5 seconds. It has a delayed effect, but you can use it then use another attack nearly immediately. I’ll throw in an extra 0.5 second delay just for safe measure, and say it does 292 × 5 = 1460 damage over a second, not including torment. Throw 10% on top of there for staff or axe w/ axe training (1606), and then give it the crit mod, and you’ll get 4021 adjusted base DPS. Not bad for a second.

Life transfer takes 3.5 seconds, and does 684 × 1.1 × 5 = 3762 damage. Divide it by time to get 1075. Add in the crit mod, and you get 2691 adjusted base DPS.

Oh. Sorry I miss it.