Guild Wars 2

I main a necro first off, but I also have an engi, ranger, guard, and thief. I think they all have there strengths. My necro is now lvl 27 in fractals and just need Arah 4 to finish dungeon master. I bring good DPS, heals, cc, condition removal, and pet agro support to a group all in one package. I rarely have been kicked for being a necro and I usually start my own groups but the forums act like we are useless. I just don’t get it. On a side note a lot of people say engineers are bad as well and my engi is fractal lvl 39 and I have no issues with him either. I know we have some issues as do all classes but it doesn’t seem that bad. Ohh well I’m bored at work and figured I’d drop a line.

What you’re running into is the “optimum theorycrafters”. They will say things like “anything X can do, another class can do better”, and even though it might technically be true, it also often loses sight of the whole picture.

It isn’t really an argument one side wins. Some people look at the theoretical upper bounds and base their opinions on that. Others just use their experience in-game. It’s a war without end, as it boils down to differences in approach/opinion at the end of the day.

Also, it depends on your goals. If you want to aim for land speed records, you don’t settle for anything other than the strategy/class comp that will push you through the content the fastest. Necro often isn’t the class that fills a high-cleave race through a dungeon, so it gets a little flak. However, if you’re casually pubbin’, it’s very likely that this won’t matter much.

No one really insists that Necros can’t do any of the PvE in the game. They just insist that other classes can fill any role a Necro can fill, and do it better than a Necro.

It’s up to you to determine whether or not that matters at all to you. To me, it doesn’t, as MMO balance at the theoretical upper bound is always going to be a fickle mistress.

Oh, and surviving what appear to be older mechanics/boss designs can be an issue for Necros as well, I hear.

Well put Cogburn! Yeah I’m not setting any speed run records but I am having a blast. Guess that’s all that matters. Necro is by far my favorite class.

Necro can deal good damage, but the popular dungeon classes can match that damage while also bringing useful utility like reflects, group boons, stability, water fields, fire fields, etc.

Even rangers, who are also considered one of the ‘bad’ dungeon professions, can bring unique buffs to their party via spotter and frost spirit.

We have nothing to bring whatsoever. Basically all we have is conditions, but other professions bring those too, so yeah.

Just because you can run all the PvE in this game with a Necro doesn’t mean the class is on equal footing with the others.

Having played 4 of the classes I would disagree. My ranger giving a 5% inc to crit in no way is as powerful as my necro. Could be me I guess. My necro depending on how I’m specced can be very good support in dungeon runs. Not as good as a guard of course but good all the same. I guess it boils down to what Cog said, if you want speed runs bring guard and war if you don’t care then bring what you like.

Necromancer lack of useful teamsupport.

- Fury
- Might
- unique dps buffs
- vulstacking is ok but not as smooth as warr/engineer can do it

then Necros have low aoe dmg, nearly no cleave. High CD on blinds (guards can do it much better by dealing more dps especialy aoe/cleave).

So necro dps (20/25/0/0/25/ full zerk D/F + D/Wh is a little bit then warriors (fullbuffed) but since nercos do not bring buffs themselves it´s usually better to pick another class.

Thief>more dps an stacking a bit vul too (and they have cleavedmg)

Engineer>strong healing/condition remove (without losing much dps), awesome at stacking vul and still good dps, nice for clearing up trash and so on

Ele>nearly OP dps, best might/fury stacking ingame

Warrior>solid dps, probaly lower then necros but warrios bring mith/vul/banners if this buffs are not maxed out, a warrior will increase party dps more then a necro can do it. (even if dealing sligthly less personal dps)
And they have cleave dmg too.

Ranger>a bit less dps then warriors (cause the cat can/will die sometimes or they can´t use the sword always) but spotter (7% critchance) and 7,5% raw dmg (frostspirit) are nice.
And they can buff might/fury/vul too, they have blast finishers, a bit of reflection and a waterfield+condition remove if needed.

Guard>usually 1 in each gruop, since they do second/third best dps ingame and have alot of nice and unique support

Mesmer>if u have a guard, u usually don´t need a mesmer (personal dps is aweful in PvE). But alot of people still think mesmer is a must have for timewarp

Necro>the last class u pick up if u´re min/maxing (probably they can switch the place with mesmers)

So necromancers need support (might/fury) and cleave/aoe dmg for trashfights.
Sidenote: If u don´t want to do time records. A necromancer is good enough for “normal” speedruns. CoE P3 in 13min and so on.

Most warr/guard searchign pugs don´t have much clue about the game and shouldn´t kick other classes. I laugh always if i see warriors/guards playing only greatsword.
But i have to say, i know why they do it. 98% of all engineers/rangers/necromancers are just horribel.

Necros have bad aoe DPS? This news to me.

The most optimize group in this game is always the one that will offer the fastest boss-clear times, while retaining cleave for clearing trash mobs, and just the bare minimum of defenses to not die.

Necromancers don’t generally bring this capability to groups. They can potentially reach the damage of a Warrior, but lack the cleave, and group buffing. They might be able to match the general support of a Guardian, but lack the extra utility. So if you are going for the speed-running record, it is very unlikely that you will bring a Necro.

That said, 99.999999% of the community isn’t good enough or doing content difficult enough for that to matter.

Stubie.5834:

Necros have bad aoe DPS? This news to me.

In PvE yes.

Stubie.5834:

Necros have bad aoe DPS? This news to me.

Yes they have, spreading conditions is not as good as most people think. 5k dps on 5 targets is sweet, but not good.

Good is Ele 5k+ Lavafont ticks and 6k+ AA whichs means more then 10k dps…more then the double amount of necromancers.
Or just use Lighning Hammer AA 7k,7k,11k if u´re bad buffed…

The other reason is. Condition dmg in general is bad dps compared to berserkers.

As a Berserkernecromancer u have.

- Warhorn 5
- Axe 3 (but axe isn´t used in max dps builds)
- 2 wells with high cd
- DS 4/5 both are nice, but only average dps
- probably DS1 if traited (only piercing)
- Elitegolem if u stack into a corner
- probably the small ones who can explode (but they aren´t used for this)

Meleeclasses (guard/warr) cleave dmg is far superior to this. Ele/Engineer have definitly no AoE probelms as i said above.
Ranger could have better cleave dps. Sword is strong and the riverdrake has got a pretty strong aoe dmg attack.

In normal PuG speedruns a necromancer shouldn´t make huge diffrent. I enjoy playing my necromancer. Even if i know that other classes can bring more to my party (ele/thief for example).
Well, and i don´t play with pugs too…

I guess I was wrong then lol. Mobs seem to melt away when I’m playing my necro compared to my alts. Maybe it was just in my head! Still love the play style though so I’ll continue to main him and hope for some buffs here and there.

I too love my necro. I know the dps isnt like my warrior but i do enjoy stacking the bleeds like crazy an just walking away an the enemies dropping from bleeding to death mwah ha ha. Blood is power bleeds for 15464 for me, love watching them drop

Stubie.5834:

I guess I was wrong then lol. Mobs seem to melt away when I’m playing my necro compared to my alts. Maybe it was just in my head! Still love the play style though so I’ll continue to main him and hope for some buffs here and there.

Mobs do, yes, because the right Necro build has pretty awesome AoE burst against trash especially. But its on very long CDs, is very selfish, and doesn’t compare to the more “sustained” bursts that the common classes can do. One WoS every 35s doesn’t really compare to 100b on a fraction of the CD.

Bhawb.7408:

snip
is very selfish
snip

This is my main gripe with the necro prof.

rogerwilko.6895:

Bhawb.7408:

snip
is very selfish
snip

This is my main gripe with the necro prof.

The thing is, if we were capable of dealing higher damage than other professions, being a selfish class would be okay, but since we deal average damage, its just unacceptable. I think its fine to be brought just for damage, if that is what your class is good at. I really wish they would buff power necro damage, its not like were tearing it up in competative pvp.

Anyone who numbercrunched for more than a minute will know necros aint rosy and sweet.

i find from experience that the worst player make the most noise. ive never had any problem with 20+ fractal. its the ones >10 that asks for gear check, and only takes warrior mesmer and guardians.

Norjena.5172:

Necromancer lack of useful teamsupport.

- Fury
- Might
- unique dps buffs
- vulstacking is ok but not as smooth as warr/engineer can do it

I think you’ll find necro is much better at stacking vulnerability.

Warrior - Stacking with GS
Attacking constantly with GS auto attack (meaning no axe auto, no 100b, no whirling axe i.e DPS loss) it lasts for 8 seconds base, one auto chain applies 3 stacks and takes 2.4s according to wiki: (8/2.4)*3=10. Only 10 stacks, if you’re using nothing but auto attack.
If you have axe main hand and mace off hand, you have Cyclone Axe and Crushing Blow for 4 stacks each. Using that instead of GS will mean more DPS since axe auto attack is stronger, but you only have 9 stacks on average due to the cool down of Crushing Blow exceeding the vulnerability duration by 50%. Using stacks per 5 seconds divded by the number of 5 seconds accounted for (3 since Crushing Blow cd is 15), and accounting for Cyclone Axe having a 6s cd with 8s duration: (4+4 + 4+(4/(5/3))+(4/(5/4)) + 4)/3=9.22222.
If you were to combine those and GS, Cyclone axe is for 8 seconds on a 6 second cool down, which means to be constant you need to keep switching back from GS, meaning you need at least 15 in Discipline, and will still be restricted by the 5 second weapon swap cool down. With each swap back you only have 3 seconds left on Cyclone Axe or the last 3 stacks of your 10 stacked with GS auto, so you’ll never reach 20.

On a boss obviously it’ll be much lower.

Engineer - Spamming (I don’t know engineer but I competed with a friend on her Engineer)
So while I can’t compare, I can refer you to this post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/The-Ele-Meta-Dungeon-Speed-Clears/3469933

Necro
My response was assuming condition duration and Unshakeable so I’ll rewrite it here, still assuming 10% for the reduce CD trait in Spite. Focus 4 for 12 stacks at 11 seconds. For those 12 seconds use life blast, 2 stacks per hit lasting 11 seconds. After 7 seconds you’ve reached 25 stacks. By the time Focus 4 stacks expire, you’ve reached 22 stacks with life blast. In 2-3 seconds Focus 4 comes off cool down, at which point you can exit death shroud, use some life force generation skills along with focus 4, which will apply 4 stacks per second up to 12, replacing the older life blast stacks as they expire.

On a boss, much lower, but obviously you can see it’ll be more than warrior, maintained without needing to max out condition duration like engi, and you can increase it further with 20 in death magic if you so desire (although obviously that’ll cost you DPS).

EDIT: Changed necro calculations down to 10% to make it more consistent with the calculations for warrior.

Norjena.5172:

Necromancer lack of useful teamsupport.

- Fury
- Might
- unique dps buffs
- vulstacking is ok but not as smooth as warr/engineer can do it

then Necros have low aoe dmg, nearly no cleave. High CD on blinds (guards can do it much better by dealing more dps especialy aoe/cleave).

So necro dps (20/25/0/0/25/ full zerk D/F + D/Wh is a little bit then warriors (fullbuffed) but since nercos do not bring buffs themselves it´s usually better to pick another class.

Thief>more dps an stacking a bit vul too (and they have cleavedmg)

Engineer>strong healing/condition remove (without losing much dps), awesome at stacking vul and still good dps, nice for clearing up trash and so on

Ele>nearly OP dps, best might/fury stacking ingame

Warrior>solid dps, probaly lower then necros but warrios bring mith/vul/banners if this buffs are not maxed out, a warrior will increase party dps more then a necro can do it. (even if dealing sligthly less personal dps)
And they have cleave dmg too.

Ranger>a bit less dps then warriors (cause the cat can/will die sometimes or they can´t use the sword always) but spotter (7% critchance) and 7,5% raw dmg (frostspirit) are nice.
And they can buff might/fury/vul too, they have blast finishers, a bit of reflection and a waterfield+condition remove if needed.

Guard>usually 1 in each gruop, since they do second/third best dps ingame and have alot of nice and unique support

Mesmer>if u have a guard, u usually don´t need a mesmer (personal dps is aweful in PvE). But alot of people still think mesmer is a must have for timewarp

Necro>the last class u pick up if u´re min/maxing (probably they can switch the place with mesmers)

So necromancers need support (might/fury) and cleave/aoe dmg for trashfights.
Sidenote: If u don´t want to do time records. A necromancer is good enough for “normal” speedruns. CoE P3 in 13min and so on.

Most warr/guard searchign pugs don´t have much clue about the game and shouldn´t kick other classes. I laugh always if i see warriors/guards playing only greatsword.
But i have to say, i know why they do it. 98% of all engineers/rangers/necromancers are just horribel.

Wow 98% are bad?, i’ve seen more bad guardian/warriors than i’ve seen those 3 professions because you know “healing shouts” and camping longbow and whatnot, there is ofcourse bad players of all professions however saying 98% is bad is stretching a little too much.

In PvP everyone hates necro cause we are too powerful.
The path of darkness we all must walk on our own.

Leeto.1570:

In PvP everyone hates necro cause we are too powerful.
The path of darkness we all must walk on our own.

Well only condi and mm necros…

Th reason why i said 98% is simple. Try to find “good” zerkers Rangers/Engis/Necromancers for a Dungeon Speedrun.

Engi is Bomb/Nade switching maxdps Build, who does this play? 1/100 or so….
Ranger is sword/x + Cat + frostspirit and spotter…who does this play? U can wait hours to find such a ranger for CoE speedruns for example.

Necromancers are the same.

Yes alot warriors and guards are bad (what i wrote too) but it´s easier to find a “OKAY” one.
Sure GS only Warr/Guard is worse then Axt/Mace + GS or GS + Sword/Focus guys, but they are still much more usefull then a condition necro, a flamethrower engi or a bow/axe ranger.

That´s what i want to say. That doesn´t mean that 98% can´t play well, but they play a not so usefull build. Possibel they like it, it´s ok i don´t critize this.

I like to play a Staff + D/D rampager hybrid for example. I´ve got Zerkers gear too, but sometimes is just want to play it because it´s fun.

Norjena.5172:

Th reason why i said 98% is simple. Try to find “good” zerkers Rangers/Engis/Necromancers for a Dungeon Speedrun.

Engi is Bomb/Nade switching maxdps Build, who does this play? 1/100 or so….
Ranger is sword/x + Cat + frostspirit and spotter…who does this play? U can wait hours to find such a ranger for CoE speedruns for example.

Necromancers are the same.

Yes alot warriors and guards are bad (what i wrote too) but it´s easier to find a “OKAY” one.
Sure GS only Warr/Guard is worse then Axt/Mace + GS or GS + Sword/Focus guys, but they are still much more usefull then a condition necro, a flamethrower engi or a bow/axe ranger.

That´s what i want to say. That doesn´t mean that 98% can´t play well, but they play a not so usefull build. Possibel they like it, it´s ok i don´t critize this.

I like to play a Staff + D/D rampager hybrid for example. I´ve got Zerkers gear too, but sometimes is just want to play it because it´s fun.

A) S/WH+SB+Melandru Stalker with swap to devourer or fspider+Frost, flame trap and spotter is the staple ranger build for dungeons… unless the person is gearing their ranger up (in which case the GS/LB setup is better because it does more on base) what is rare to see people that know how and when to swap pets and when to change their sword to axe main hand (bosses which get 4+ axes in the face if you melee em) or that know that their axe offhand is useful against projectiles.

B) Engie nades are out of the top pve dps spot for quite a while, they actually share the damage over 10 seconds with flamethrower builds… either way both are still very useful because of range/elixir drop for anti-projectile

C) Currently the best necro setup for fractals is lich well bomber (aka power in knight or soldier gear) that knows how to use their fears and slots in Sgrasp/Swall/WoP instead of their Well of Darkness BUT condi necros still do a lot more damage than any medicore warrior that doesnt know how to keep his FGJ/swaps between axe and GS up for might nor how and when to use their burst skills because a condi necro is (no insult ment) far more brainless.

Problem is even a “meh” guard or warrior will still bring enough utility to make up for subpar dps where as a “good” necro will only bring subpar warrior dps and no utility. Like I’ve said before, it’s not that necros suck, it’s the fact that the mechanics in this game favors melee by a big margin and the cap on conditions ruins any condition build in PVE. I mean an example is 100b and warrior axe AA. Those alone are crazy

Necros can deal a bit more dps. Warriors dps is 5 or 6 out of 8 classes. But more warriors play “useful” builds even if they have not the best gear, it´s better then most engi/ranger/necros.

I know only 3 good rangers in this game, but 30 or more warriors which i could invite. Necros? 1 or 2, Engineers? not even 1 (except myself).
- im talking about my FL and so on, yes there are a few popular engineer/ranger player. But some of the i mean…

@Andele Ranger Sword/WH/Axe + GS is best, not Bow. And only a few rangers are playing this.

Engineer nades only is stupid and a big waste of dps AND support. Nade 2/4 Bomb AA toolkit 3 Rifle 3/5 F Nade F Toolkit is dps rotation hf to find an engineer who is playing this.
And i didn´t talk about utility switches and finishers which i want to see….
If a engineer can´t do this a stupid warrior can fill the slot better.

Nadespam is subar – 20% dps compared to warriors. perfect rotation is about warriors dps, usually less cause the engineer can´t do the perfect rotation all the time. But nice support- Vul/Blind/Finisher/Condition remove/Bursthealing, all without losing much dps, a good berserkers engineer is awesome in 49/50 fractals. A bad engineer is bad…

Necro in Knights and Soldier gear? In Fractals? WTF? I will instantly kick such a guy.
Most Necros are playing conditionbuilds or nemesis subpar hybrid. Only a few play a good berserkerbuild and know how to switch utilitys well.

Gamers are spoiled today. Remember the SNES era when you played what you got? Now every gamer thinks they’re some sort of master game designer.

Sauzo.6821:

Problem is even a “meh” guard or warrior will still bring enough utility to make up for subpar dps where as a “good” necro will only bring subpar warrior dps and no utility.

this.

Actually, Necromancers don’t have a lack of utility overall, its the kind of utility. Warriors bring great team utility for turning already easy fights into even faster, easier fights.

But, if they actually made dungeons hard enough that rolling your face over the keyboard wasn’t enough to win, Necromancers would very quickly find a place on any team.

Quells.2498:

Gamers are spoiled today. Remember the SNES era when you played what you got? Now every gamer thinks they’re some sort of master game designer.

Yeah! I remember a lot of MMO on SNES! …

tuman.6593:

Quells.2498:

Gamers are spoiled today. Remember the SNES era when you played what you got? Now every gamer thinks they’re some sort of master game designer.

Yeah! I remember a lot of MMO on SNES! …

His point remains. Everyone is an expert that requires the devs to make their changes now when it comes to an MMO. No one wrote to Nintendo asking for a bunch of fixes. When given an opportunity to have a voice, many decided to use it to yell or give ultimatums/threaten to quit.

People complain they’re bored after thousands of hours of an MMO, then blame the developers for not releasing content. Imagine that many hours of Super Mario World, and how bored you would be. MMOs are an opportunity to be a part of something that’s ongoing, and people use that opportunity to complain that things aren’t moving fast enough.

Feedback is fine, because devs want feedback. However, there’s something to be said for enjoying the little things and appreciating a class for its flavor/uniqueness instead of its theoretical upper bound.

I think we have got a bit off topic. So last night I did a lvl 28 fractal run on my necro and a lvl 32 fractal run on my engi. I really paid attention to the numbers and what I usually just instinctually do to support the group. My engi was over all better. I wouldn’t say by a landslide but better yes. I do get downed more often on my engi so not sure if the loss of DPS and support would even out there because I rarely get downed on my necro.

This forum is generally filled with intellectually dishonest, myopic complaints that rant endlessly on “x has this why don’t I have it”. Sometimes the hyperbole is so disconnected with reality that you wonder if they actually even play the game. Not all, but the loudest are usually like this. The problem is that even if the grievences are valid, the hyperbole make finding a solution based on this feedback to be completely impossible. Thus, there is a low signal to noise ratio as arguments will be based around the little area of which they play the game to be the center of the universe. And this kind of nonsense leads to some people thinking the necromancer needs nerfed. (but there’s multiple areas in the game to take in context… nope of course that doesn’t matter)

And some people believe that if you can pick the best choice, then there’s no reason to pick anything else. It is indeed hard pressing to declare anything in pve in which the necro is the best choice. Maybe open world, but nobody cares about open world as it is too low skill to stroke one’s ego; same goes for zerging in both pve and wvw of whic necros are also strong at. Buffs > Debuffs in PvE and necros specialize in high single target damage outside of condi builds. We have plenty of strength from aoe condi side such as epidemic, but conditions are broken there.

You can of course make up the difference by playing better but the disparity still exists and there’s no point trying to cover it up. It’s honestly not gamebreaking. On the other hand, chest beating and excessive melodrama makes any solution harder to find.

ArchonWing.9480:

This forum is generally filled with intellectually dishonest, myopic complaints that rant endlessly on “x has this why don’t I have it”. Sometimes the hyperbole is so disconnected with reality that you wonder if they actually even play the game. Not all, but the loudest are usually like this. The problem is that even if the grievences are valid, the hyperbole make finding a solution based on this feedback to be completely impossible. Thus, there is a low signal to noise ratio as arguments will be based around the little area of which they play the game to be the center of the universe. And this kind of nonsense leads to some people thinking the necromancer needs nerfed. (but there’s multiple areas in the game to take in context… nope of course that doesn’t matter)

And some people believe that if you can pick the best choice, then there’s no reason to pick anything else. It is indeed hard pressing to declare anything in pve in which the necro is the best choice. Maybe open world, but nobody cares about open world as it is too low skill to stroke one’s ego; same goes for zerging in both pve and wvw of whic necros are also strong at. Buffs > Debuffs in PvE and necros specialize in high single target damage outside of condi builds. We have plenty of strength from aoe condi side such as epidemic, but conditions are broken there.

You can of course make up the difference by playing better but the disparity still exists and there’s no point trying to cover it up. It’s honestly not gamebreaking. On the other hand, chest beating and excessive melodrama makes any solution harder to find.

It comes down to teaching acceptance and diversity. Most these issues come from one person not understanding why everyone else doesn’t play like their self.

Cogbyrn.7283:

tuman.6593:

Quells.2498:

Gamers are spoiled today. Remember the SNES era when you played what you got? Now every gamer thinks they’re some sort of master game designer.

Yeah! I remember a lot of MMO on SNES! …

His point remains. Everyone is an expert that requires the devs to make their changes now when it comes to an MMO. No one wrote to Nintendo asking for a bunch of fixes. When given an opportunity to have a voice, many decided to use it to yell or give ultimatums/threaten to quit.

People complain they’re bored after thousands of hours of an MMO, then blame the developers for not releasing content. Imagine that many hours of Super Mario World, and how bored you would be. MMOs are an opportunity to be a part of something that’s ongoing, and people use that opportunity to complain that things aren’t moving fast enough.

Feedback is fine, because devs want feedback. However, there’s something to be said for enjoying the little things and appreciating a class for its flavor/uniqueness instead of its theoretical upper bound.

It’s not just that… This is not SINGLE player game. People dont want to play with useless character in the party if they play not for fun but for result. People do not want to waste time if they play for result. PvE is not for fun only.. sometimes it is about farm and farm is boring. Thats why so much discontent in this forum. People just dont want to see “LFG war/guard/ele/mesmer only” Necro is fun to play in pvp, wvw, I love DS mechanic, but there are more useful things in other professions.

Cogbyrn.7283:

tuman.6593:

Quells.2498:

Gamers are spoiled today. Remember the SNES era when you played what you got? Now every gamer thinks they’re some sort of master game designer.

Yeah! I remember a lot of MMO on SNES! …

His point remains. Everyone is an expert that requires the devs to make their changes now when it comes to an MMO. No one wrote to Nintendo asking for a bunch of fixes. When given an opportunity to have a voice, many decided to use it to yell or give ultimatums/threaten to quit.

People complain they’re bored after thousands of hours of an MMO, then blame the developers for not releasing content. Imagine that many hours of Super Mario World, and how bored you would be. MMOs are an opportunity to be a part of something that’s ongoing, and people use that opportunity to complain that things aren’t moving fast enough.

Feedback is fine, because devs want feedback. However, there’s something to be said for enjoying the little things and appreciating a class for its flavor/uniqueness instead of its theoretical upper bound.

You know, if you could actually find dna from a dino and revive it you would be able to research it irl, there would be no reason for a paleontologist to look trough dirt for remains. Ofc there is still the point of not reviving a idiotic dinosaur from who you wouldnt be able to get anything worth while because they choke on the air they breath nor a too dangerous (biased) one that would nom you up.
Same way id think that as someone who has 7-8 years of pretty much hardcore gaming and a person who has seen lot of game design choices/mechanics i could provide proper feedback if asked to actually think about it, ofc it would need to be regulated and filtered into the proper mesh of data, but still being better than throwing spaghetti at a wall and look what sticks.

tuman.6593:

It’s not just that… This is not SINGLE player game. People dont want to play with useless character in the party if they play not for fun but for result. People do not want to waste time if they play for result. PvE is not for fun only.. sometimes it is about farm and farm is boring. Thats why so much discontent in this forum. People just dont want to see “LFG war/guard/ele/mesmer only” Necro is fun to play in pvp, wvw, I love DS mechanic, but there are more useful things in other professions.

EQ definition of PvE was for fun, for the experience, skill gained, rotations, build theory and kinda sortaish for the little story it had, same for D&D. Actually the whole “game” thing of MMORPG defines that it has to be fun, if you want pure results thats why you have pvp and if you suck too much for that GW2 gave you WvWvW.

Andele.1306:

tuman.6593:

It’s not just that… This is not SINGLE player game. People dont want to play with useless character in the party if they play not for fun but for result. People do not want to waste time if they play for result. PvE is not for fun only.. sometimes it is about farm and farm is boring. Thats why so much discontent in this forum. People just dont want to see “LFG war/guard/ele/mesmer only” Necro is fun to play in pvp, wvw, I love DS mechanic, but there are more useful things in other professions.

EQ definition of PvE was for fun, for the experience, skill gained, rotations, build theory and kinda sortaish for the little story it had, same for D&D. Actually the whole “game” thing of MMORPG defines that it has to be fun, if you want pure results thats why you have pvp and if you suck too much for that GW2 gave you WvWvW.

LOL I playing PvP and love it, but I love WvWvW too. But for try a lot of builds in WvWvW I need a lot of farm, and I want to farm as quickly as it possible(that’s what I mean by “result”), and I cant do it with necro atm(because of “war/guard/mesmer/ele only”). Farming is part of pve that cant be fun.
It forced switch to my alt guard/war/mesmer for farming. It is no problem for me, but It is not correct, isnt it?

Under the current functionality of the game, and the forseeable future.

Necromancer will not be a “Record run class”

that being said.

THATS FINE!

still love playing mine. and I will still continue to do so. But kitten many others have said. In the overall scheme the utility Necromancer does bring, other classes can do it, or do it better, or do it AND bring something else.

Regardless, Have fun with it, and enjoy yourself.

Still Waiting on Spoj and [rT] for the necromancer Lupi kill.

The problem isn’t necro’s support options, the problem is how other people see necros.
they only prioritize dps, teamsupport is nothing for them. necros have great heal and teamsupport abilities, but who cares? as long as you can’t do enough damage like berserker warriors they don’t care. you are just a loss of efficiency in party. this is because pve aspect of the game is only focused to offense and dps. and this is because mobs don’t have proper ai to evade, defend, run move etc. they just stay in front of greatswords. this encourages zerker warriors in parties. if they had mobility and different skills, and acted kinda like dueling players, parties would need all kinds of classes to support them. maybe some parties would require chill/fear to disable monsters with high mobility. the game lacks 2 of 3 roles. tanks and healer builds.

I do not PvE much, just enough to get some gear and money, but from what I experienced the problem is that most dungeons doesnt require any support classes, and any full zerk team can do then very fast and very easily… now they come with this talk about balancing zerk builds, or critical damage so it will not be the dominant build in PvE… please the problem is not the build, improve dungeons bosses so that they can not just be “zerged” and killed in minutes with raw damage…. there is no need for tactical skill in most dungeons, any noobie in a high dps build can do then.

my 2 cent:

1. Necro can KITE better then guard ( witch is needed in a phew dungeons ) with proper Skills. ( like in AC p1 ) (maybe not in PvP and WvW but yes in PvE )

2. Zerk Necro have a higher SINGLE target DPS out put then a zerk WAR if played right. ( not to mention we can EASILY put 25 stack of VUL on any mob! THEN SPREAD IT to all other mobs!!!! hows that for Support in a ZERK group!!! ) ( fact )

3: Necro have one of , if not the best Survivability ingame no matter what Build they spec in. ( guards have better Team support but necro have great Self support and a guard going all out support no longer hs any good DPS compare to a necro witch can still keep up his DPS ) ( if a ZERK war claims to have better survivability then a ZERK necro , hes never played a necro RIGHT before. ) Sure the WAR will have better OVER ALL DPS , but necro have more single DPS and better survivability for the lack of AOE DPS ( witch is also pretty dam good if you rotate your DPS right with staff skills and condition Spreads )

4: Necro have the BEST CONDITION AOE ingame. ( even doh people say condition is useless in PvE ) … Condition is WAY more useless in PVP/WvW as every single class can use cond removal , MOBS cant ( Condition is only really useless in WORLD bosses )

5: Necro’s are probably the BEST Solo class ingame for PvE , yes every other class can do ONE thing better then the necro, bu the NEcro can do it ALL at the same time! and NEcro IS BY FAR the best class to LVL up specially a MM necro ) even doh lvling up is the most useless part of the game! they do it right. HAHA

( I play a hybrid necro , i can stack 25 stacks of bleed , or i can do MASSIVE single DPS or even pull out some pet or Bufs/debuffs by changing 1-2 skills and keeping my traits as is!! i have about 5 different types of FOOD for every situation: condition duration , to Power/Crit to Vit/toughness even Magic find ) Example: if i play with other COND types i dont use condition duration i use more power or crit . once i see 25 stacks i switch to applying VUL on target and doing strait DPS.

6: Necro’s can MASS debuff: Endless Blinds , Fears , Vul, Chill and cripple. ( still very good )

7: They say every class can do everything better then NECRO , BUT .. im pretty sure a MM necro is better then a PET ranger.. any day of the week… +1 . lol

The necro of GW2 i think would have been better in GW1 as GW1 required more TALENT in knowing WHAT SKILLS to swap depending on the fight..

GW2 = Facesmashing with one build. ( zerk war , theif , mesmer and guard )

I agree with Ralron on many points, especially on condition damage. Much of the condi criticism is technically valid, but doesn’t really materialize in play.

Many claim Necro cond damage isn’t good DPS, but they forget how fast, easy and versatile our Condi damage actually is. I always see many comparing it to spikes, but a spike is a spike. 10-20K damage every 5-10 seconds over 3-5 seconds (which may or may not have hit), has to be in melee range, stay still etc., is not the same kitten condi area tick, another 5K tick 1200 range, another 5K tick while running away at 1500 range, another 4K tick while downed etc. Condi damage is consistent and is independent of what the player is doing, so long as the Necro keeps stacking condis. fortunety condi stacking for necro can be done while running away, 0-1200 range, almost instant in application and very easy to synergize CDs. Thus Necro condition damage can be very efficient compared to other damage types, especially against bosses that move round a lot, have respawning adds or there’s a lot of kiting involved. You never have to be in the right (or wrong) place to do high DPS.

However, a Condi Necro can never burst that condi damage at once. Its always going to be a max 5Kish per tick + whatever you crit for on normal damage (which can be great on Hybrid and is probably the best DPS builds for Necro guessing on the math/playstyle). Wherein a Power Necro can truly area spike/burst by casting WoS,WoC and Life Transfer at once for example.

The complaints about bleed stacks etc. never really come into play in most PvE. Most people play power builds and one other condi toon in party is fine as it makes Epidemic stacking much better. The duration and quick application on your bleeds are going to out stack other bleeds from other classes that proc them.

On another note when many use the arguement “another class can do anything a Necro can do, but better,” seems more often than not just “spillover” from the DPS arguements and are not well thought out. When you really go into some of the number crunching and skill/trait mechanics, usage and availability, Necro can compete and surpass other classes when it comes to things like soft CC/debuff application. Area Weakness for sure (can easily keep it up 24/7, even on bosses), while having easier access and reaction time when it comes to applying area chill, poison, pulse blinds etc.

No other class can convert conditions to boons on allies and boons to conditions on enemies either. This can give us access to boons we usually don’t have (area/pulse fury, vigor, aegis and protection on self/allies by converting blinds, burning, chill/bleeds and vulnerability). WoC can also turn hard hitting groups into play things by converting stacks of might, fury and protection into burning, blinds and weakness.

Which brings us back to the main issue. It isn’t our skills or mechanics that are truly lacking in PvE. It’s PvE mechanics which are the problem like many have said on this thread. Having enemies stack where players want them to stack, while having easily avoidable spikes every 20 seconds etc. kills the usefulness for support and promotes DPS only.

Places that play off Necro skills, (which are being implemented more and more with each LS update), is where we shine. For example in the Tower of Nightmares my Apothecary Wellomancer could easily solo any fight on his way up to the top except champ Spider (the champ wurm could take a long time though) without cheesing (running through, trying to pull trash apart). That’s because much of the difficulty was caused by contant pressure from conditions, enviromental effects, enemy AI, CC and could be countered by Necro support mechanics very well, while also doing great area condition damage to kill enemies off in good time.

No one should play condi in a dungeon. I wouldnt compare necro to an engy because an engy would loose. Engy can give a group fury and might etc water fields and etc but in terms of damage necro would win. This is why People only only like warriors mesmers and guards.

Here are the base stats for those favorite skills.
Hundred Blades
Damage (8x): 1,624 (4.4)?
Final strike damage: 406 (1.1)?
Range: 130
This skill cleaves.

Whirling Wrath
Damage (9x): 1,251
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 600

Life Siphon
Damage (9x): 909 (2.700)?
Healing: 202 per pulse
Range: 600

this stuff is from the wiki and this is just an example allot of info on those skills are not mentioned as well. Necro channeling skills just cant keep up with the warrior hundread blades and none of them cleaves deathshroud auto attack is slow on land yeah it hits hard but its not realy dps. wells of suffering and currption together can do some good damage but they have high cooldowns and it only lasts for 6 seconds.

necro cant put up reflects like the infamous mesmer witch very important in dungeons like arah and i guess fractals. Necro does not have an aoe haste like mesmer’s timemwarp for speed runs or a fancy teleport skill.

Necro can heal allys but then you have guardian who can do it better and also give protection regen normal heals remove conditions and block things and reflect things.

Necro is my main and I dont pve on her just because we dont have a place in pve.
elite groups only make pve more boring. Gw2 is my first mmo and I just want to say I hate the pve community and what it has become my dungeon experience was utterly destroyed. I have 3 legendarys on a toon that i can barely play on because of this lasy community. Anet broke my heart with what they did to necro.

I do as much damage in DS with Life Blast 100% crit applying might and vul (trait) and Linch form using Deathly claws (100% crit) with a marked for death (x10VUL)
then I do with my channeling skills , Witch I simply rotate properly

Simple really ,

• The Necromancer is the Hybrid Profession in GW2 , it does every thing every other class can do. (but not as good)

• Other classes can do some of it better but cant do it all.

Exp

• Sure our AOE dps cant keep up( cause of long cool downs ) , but we have better single DPS
• sure we cant buff party , but we buff our self ( yeah, I know selfish necro )
• we dont heal allies as well as a Guard but we heal our self Amazingly (and buffs)
• Fears are also very much underrated / under Used! , ( aside from boss fights)

the list could go for ever , but now I actually wana go play .. so yeah..

Morde.3158:

No one should play condi in a dungeon. I wouldnt compare necro to an engy because an engy would loose. Engy can give a group fury and might etc water fields and etc but in terms of damage necro would win. This is why People only only like warriors mesmers and guards.

Here are the base stats for those favorite skills.
Hundred Blades
Damage (8x): 1,624 (4.4)?
Final strike damage: 406 (1.1)?
Range: 130
This skill cleaves.

Whirling Wrath
Damage (9x): 1,251
Combo Finisher: Whirl
Range: 600

Life Siphon
Damage (9x): 909 (2.700)?
Healing: 202 per pulse
Range: 600

this stuff is from the wiki and this is just an example allot of info on those skills are not mentioned as well. Necro channeling skills just cant keep up with the warrior hundread blades and none of them cleaves deathshroud auto attack is slow on land yeah it hits hard but its not realy dps. wells of suffering and currption together can do some good damage but they have high cooldowns and it only lasts for 6 seconds.

necro cant put up reflects like the infamous mesmer witch very important in dungeons like arah and i guess fractals. Necro does not have an aoe haste like mesmer’s timemwarp for speed runs or a fancy teleport skill.

Necro can heal allys but then you have guardian who can do it better and also give protection regen normal heals remove conditions and block things and reflect things.

Necro is my main and I dont pve on her just because we dont have a place in pve.
elite groups only make pve more boring. Gw2 is my first mmo and I just want to say I hate the pve community and what it has become my dungeon experience was utterly destroyed. I have 3 legendarys on a toon that i can barely play on because of this lasy community. Anet broke my heart with what they did to necro.

lol GW2 is my first MMO too, and my first and main character is necro and i cant find place in lot of pve pugs for him cuz of what you’re told about ^^