Guild Wars 2

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP, if you are a thief in WvW and die, you’re doing something wrong.

On the contrary, I knew after the initial encounter (from which I escaped) that I was outmatched. I stuck around because satisfying my curiosity was worth a few silver in repair costs.

SnyderHall.7263:

I am going to play devil’s advocate here and defend thieves for a second.

Thieves are only OP against glass cannons / bad players. I am not pointing fingers, but you can deal with thieves very easily if you can live through their initial burst. Especially with DS, Necromancers should have no problems if prepared.

Judges ruling??? EHHHHH wrong…

Sorry for the rude response… but this is horribly inaccurate. Your statement is entirely true of bad thieves, or even mediocre thieves, not of exceptional thieves. The statement that you can deal with thieves very easily if you survive the intial burst means you are playing against the bad thieves. The good thieves have less burst, and significantly more survivability and mobility.

Triple signet burst 30/30/10 thief…. yes.. if you live 5 seconds into the fight you can win it pretty easy. But you won’t most of the time, especially if anyone else is around. Having a full DS bar soaks up a few hits, or a smart thief just stealths, waits for you to LEAVE DS, then bursts back onto you knowing you have no defense.

Poor little thief died bleeding, burning and tormented… oh so sad.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Axle.5182:

ok your argument is you had to blow everything to escape but doesn’t that not count the same for many other professions who still can’t escape a thief?

Thieves are supposed to be high-burst but squishy. If you can manage to pin them down better than they can manage to escape, they should die.

Necros are supposed to be an attrition class. If you get into a fight with a Necro, it should be difficult to escape and difficult to kill them, but there should be a reasonable window of time in which you can outplay their attrition. It shouldn’t simply be impossible to kill them and they shouldn’t be able to spike you down instantly while still having attrition mechanics.

To put it simply, there should be a smooth tradeoff between offense and defense. If I can kill you instantly, you should be able to kill me instantly. If I’m trying to wear you down, it should be possible to wear me down. This has nothing to do with individual professions and everything to do with a balanced risk/reward formula. The counterplay option of “just don’t fight” should only very rarely be the best (or even remotely the best) option. The game should encourage engaging in fights, not discourage it.

Axle.5182:

There is a meta where thieves believe that they will win every 1v1 to the point they are completely arrogant that when they are beaten it must mean the opponent is OP

No, I think the more skilled opponent should win in 1v1, if both are specced for roaming. Which isn’t to say I think I’m more skilled at my thief than this Necro was at her necro or anything. It just didn’t feel like skill really mattered here.

Axle.5182:

Iv seen it so many times just the other day a guy got stomped by a thief stealthing out and wearing the guy down the dude came back to where the thief was roaming setup a stealth trap thief tripped it lost his escape mechanism got beaten got rage invited the guy to party only to call him a stupid noob lol

Conversely, I added this Necro to my party to ask her about her build and congratulate her for beating me, which I usually do when I lose a duel.

Kilger.5490:

Ive always given thieves a run for their money, this patch just makes it more painful for them. We’re one of few classes that doesnt need a target to unleash a ton of damage, which is something they should fear. On the other hand if they play smart avoid our siphon and avoid/evade or marks, they can destroy us pretty bad. Problem for most theives is they dont know necros well enough to fight them effectively.

Oh yeah, I take particular glee in killing Thieves on my Necro. I also knew how to avoid a lot of this Necro’s burst. I was dying even AFTER dodging most of her marks and clearing her condis.

arent GREATER MARKS a core trait of the staff users allreaddy.. soo dud.. you thout you evaded them but.. you dint XD

Blaine Tog.8304:

Thedenofsin.7340:

OP, if you are a thief in WvW and die, you’re doing something wrong.

On the contrary, I knew after the initial encounter (from which I escaped) that I was outmatched. I stuck around because satisfying my curiosity was worth a few silver in repair costs.

Fair enough, but I think you’ll agree that going in knowing you’ll be killed is not the right approach.

What this comes down to is that you’re playing a profession that can choose not to die anytime you want, pretty much regardless of the opposition. I don’t think it’s remotely fair to complain that any other class is “OP”.

I’m confused, which profession is OP again?

I’m not quite sure i understand, isn’t the objective of WvW to cap and defend buildings, where does 1v1 class balance fit into this.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Fair enough, but I think you’ll agree that going in knowing you’ll be killed is not the right approach.

I knew death was likely, but I wanted to see how her spec performed, which meant overcomitting. Again, if I were trying to not die, it would’ve been a mistake, but that wasn’t my priority.

Thedenofsin.7340:

What this comes down to is that you’re playing a profession that can choose not to die anytime you want, pretty much regardless of the opposition. I don’t think it’s remotely fair to complain that any other class is “OP”.

This is diversion. Both professions can be OP in different ways. But we’re not talking about thieves. This isn’t about my thief, or even that one encounter. I’m saying this patch gave the Necro incredibly high burst if you build in one specific way without going far enough to enable the attrition-style fighting that’s supposed to be the Necro’s thing.

Tobbygnome.6793:

I’m not quite sure i understand, isn’t the objective of WvW to cap and defend buildings, where does 1v1 class balance fit into this.

It doesn’t. I’ve said repeatedly that this sort of Necro isn’t wreaking havoc with WvW or anything. It’s just lopsiding the profession.

Thedenofsin.7340:

I’m confused, which profession is OP again?

Don’t get me wrong, I always enjoy yishis’ videos, but I never think that thieves are OP while watching him. Much rather: If I (with my necro) was part of that group he attacked, there was no way that he could have killed a single ally of mine… even pre-patch.

Ahk, sorry Blaine i still don’t exactly understand what you mean

Blaine Tog.8304:

I’ve said repeatedly that this sort of Necro isn’t wreaking havoc with WvW or anything. It’s just lopsiding the profession.

I will agree with this. The trait situation now is very limiting, but you hardly see necros taking WvW by storm and owning faces, like what is claiming to be occuring in Spvp/Tpvp.

The Quality of life fixes could have opened up new build avenues (especially into siphon), but instead we got pigeonholed into a single condi build for maximum effectiveness, where we literally have 10 points to play with. At least before I had several options if I wanted to go terror or just straight condis. There was still only one “best” build, but the difference between that best build and a not so best build was minor. Now it is a huge gap between 30/20/10 and anything else.

Tobbygnome.6793:

Ahk, sorry Blaine i still don’t exactly understand what you mean

I’m saying the fight was eye-opening for just how brutal this spec’s damage is.

Ah, i see o/, well you won’t have to worry if you ever run into me in WvW i always run support build for my guild

Cheers for the reply

Well yeh, any thief complaining about another class’s burst should expect to get ridiculed.

timidobserver.7925:

Well yeh, any thief complaining about another class’s burst should expect to get ridiculed.

Yes, pretty much this. ^^

Actually, my friend, I completely agree with you….

My support warrior, who can remove more than 6 conditions has faced a condition necro (the type you talked about)) and got eaten alive. That simply doesn’t happen. My girl’s weakness is burst physical dmg, and a build that is designed specifically to remove conditions died from a necro… Never in the history of my WvW has it happened, ever. It’s over the top (coming from a person who would defend necros till the end).

Love,
A fellow Necro lover.

Edit: Yeah I coulda went with Mending and -40% condi food, but that shouldn’t be the case.

Pre patch, necromancers couldn’t roam WvW, no one suggested it, and barely anyone did it in the first place. Why? Because their low mobility made it difficult. Now, that they can stand their ground, people are crying? This is pathetic.

Rennoko.5731:

SnyderHall.7263:

I am going to play devil’s advocate here and defend thieves for a second.

Thieves are only OP against glass cannons / bad players. I am not pointing fingers, but you can deal with thieves very easily if you can live through their initial burst. Especially with DS, Necromancers should have no problems if prepared.

Judges ruling??? EHHHHH wrong…

Sorry for the rude response… but this is horribly inaccurate. Your statement is entirely true of bad thieves, or even mediocre thieves, not of exceptional thieves. The statement that you can deal with thieves very easily if you survive the intial burst means you are playing against the bad thieves. The good thieves have less burst, and significantly more survivability and mobility.

Triple signet burst 30/30/10 thief…. yes.. if you live 5 seconds into the fight you can win it pretty easy. But you won’t most of the time, especially if anyone else is around. Having a full DS bar soaks up a few hits, or a smart thief just stealths, waits for you to LEAVE DS, then bursts back onto you knowing you have no defense.

… and your statement is entirely inaccurate on the ground that you are talking about bad or mediocre Necros. See how easy it is to simply claim things to claim things? You also cannot use a constructed scenario as “evidence”. What is this whole “burst till no DS, come back burst more” business? What is the Necro doing while the Thief is dropping its incredible burst? Standing there? No wonder people think Thieves are OP.

Our petty anecdotal evidence does not mean much when players better than both of us can attest how incredible Necro is. It is not OP, in my opinion, just very good. Similarly, Thieves have always been the “incredibly OP when observed by new or unprepared players”but not impossible to counter at all class."

Also, ya know what? Even if you are onto something, Thieves were intended to be great at roaming (even best) but one of the worst (if not the worst) at zergs with their Tissue-paper like defense and laughable amount of Aoe. I don’t know what server you play on, but WvWs are generally not won by how many kills people get while roaming around.

We, of course, know how effective Necros are in sPvP at the moment.

Azraeel.1238:

Pre patch, necromancers couldn’t roam WvW, no one suggested it, and barely anyone did it in the first place. Why? Because their low mobility made it difficult. Now, that they can stand their ground, people are crying? This is pathetic.

…

You should… read the thread before posting.

Azraeel.1238:

Pre patch, necromancers couldn’t roam WvW, no one suggested it, and barely anyone did it in the first place. Why? Because their low mobility made it difficult. Now, that they can stand their ground, people are crying? This is pathetic.

First of all, there were people promoting necros as a roaming class pre-patch, I was one of them.
Saying that necros couldn’t stand their ground before is just not true.
On the other hand, the con argument always was bad mobility/survivability. This hasn’t changed, so I’m really wondering how people think we are now any better at solo roaming than we were before.

MethaneGas.8357:

Actually, my friend, I completely agree with you….

My support warrior, who can remove more than 6 conditions has faced a condition necro (the type you talked about)) and got eaten alive. That simply doesn’t happen. My girl’s weakness is burst physical dmg, and a build that is designed specifically to remove conditions died from a necro… Never in the history of my WvW has it happened, ever. It’s over the top (coming from a person who would defend necros till the end).

Love,
A fellow Necro lover.

Edit: Yeah I coulda went with Mending and -40% condi food, but that shouldn’t be the case.

This.
Other classes, who specifically build to counter conditions can’t keep up. Then there are people arguing we should let the meta adept first… well, how much more can you do besides melandru and lemongrass? And how is this supposed to be balance when all classes have to max out their anti-condi defense (which is still not enough) just because of the necro?

Hey guys, I have a secret to tell you.

Come in closer, you won’t want to miss this. Ready? Listen closely.

Necromancers who run 30/30/10/0/0 have no invulnerability frames or stealth and very poor teleports. To beat them, you hit them with attacks.

I hope I haven’t just screwed over the entire Necromancer sub-race.

Da Sonic.6521:

Hey guys, I have a secret to tell you.

Come in closer, you won’t want to miss this. Ready? Listen closely.

Necromancers who run 30/30/10/0/0 have no invulnerability frames or stealth and very poor teleports. To beat them, you hit them with attacks.

I hope I haven’t just screwed over the entire Necromancer sub-race.

Oooooh… thx, man!
I guess everyone who ever complained didn’t try attacking.
Guys, call off your dogs, problem solved!

You don’t play necro, do you? And/or never played against a good one with another class…?

flow.6043:

This.
Other classes, who specifically build to counter conditions can’t keep up. Then there are people arguing we should let the meta adept first… well, how much more can you do besides melandru and lemongrass? And how is this supposed to be balance when all classes have to max out their anti-condi defense (which is still not enough) just because of the necro?

No one should be able to completely shut down a condition user with a billion condition clears. This is part of the reason necromancers were bad in competitive team play before. Necromancers couldn’t keep up with the condition clears and it was impossible for necros to cover their bleed stack. They couldn’t kill anyone using a full condition clear set up. So now that necromancers can actually do some damage with their conditions, this is somehow deemed OP and needs nerfed? I don’t buy it one bit.

Kravick.4906:

Necromancers couldn’t keep up with the condition clears and it was impossible for necros to cover their bleed stack.

I don’t agree with that entirely, but for the sake of the argument, ok:

With Tainted Shackles you get 2 more conditions that have cleansing priority over bleeding.
If Dhuumfire’s burning was replaced by torment, you would still be able to 1. do more damage than with bleeding alone, 2. protect your bleeds with another condi spot.
Burning is overkill, it is un-down-shuttable (<- yeah, that’s a word…) by all the condi cleanses other classes have available.

Hey guys… i have something for you…

NECROMANCER OP

Long story short, i don’t use burning, i got moa-ed, i killed him… necromancer is OP.

Doesn’t it makes the blood rush to your head when you see how every random … no matter how … he is he still expects to kill a necromancer, and if he doesn’t we are OP ?

flow.6043:

Oooooh… thx, man!
I guess everyone who ever complained didn’t try attacking.
Guys, call off your dogs, problem solved!

You don’t play necro, do you? And/or never played against a good one with another class…?

I play, mainly, Necromancer and Mesmer in WvW. Having said, since the update I have played on both, and observed ways to both play effectively as them, and to play effectively against them. My comment may have been snide, but there’s a lot of truth said in jest.

First, from the Necromancer’s point of view. Fights, since the update, have typically gone like this:

In team fights, I let the rest of my team engage first, and then begin applying my pressure to a target I find threatening to the well being of my team. The enemy responds by: A) Allowing me to continue pressuring the person until they go down, which leads to an unfortunate situation for them. B) Begins pressuring me, putting me into the defensive.

I won’t continue down A) because obviously that is the sub-optimal route for Enemy.

Continuation of B) I begin playing defensively, dropping a Spectral Wall and running through it to disengage melee following me, or perhaps using Death Shroud, and fearing to the same effect. In either case, I am no longer applying my frequent bleeds and have to deal with the enemy attacking me, instead of the other way around.

Necromancers (with this build) have an interesting play style, very similar to that of a Berserker build, with a few slight adjustments. The typical Necromancer Dhuumterror build will have very little in the way of sustained personal defense. The optimal self heal shrugs off two autoattacks from a berserker setup and cleanses conditions. Death Shroud brings their (at optimal levels) health up to approximately 35000. With very little in the way of restoring this health, it becomes an “all in” situation. If you do not neutralize the threat quickly, you run out your Life Force, and eventually your health bar. Again, a Necromancer using a Staff to build his life force back is not a Necromancer stacking bleeds or poison on someone.

Necromancers have no access to stealth or invulnerability frames, extremely situational and poor teleports, and a nearly nonexistent source of vigor. You kill, or you die.

From, lets just say, my Mesmer’s point of view, a class obviously at a disadvantage when it comes to the frequency of clearing conditions.

As a berserker Mesmer, I immediately run into the same situation as the Necromancer. Kill or be killed. If I let the Necromancer begin stacking his conditions on me, I will crumple quickly to the immense pressure he can output. This is where my inherent defensive abilities come in. I need to put the Necro on the defensive, so I immediately start applying pressure either at ranges he cannot match (1200 with Greatsword, outgunning his 900 with Scepter) or Illusionary Leap and Blurred Frenzy. Lets entertain the latter plan:

Continued next post.

I am now in the Necromancer’s face, I’ve got my invulnerability frames up so he can’t retaliate with Blind or Weakness, I’m bound to crit and get Vigor, so when my invulnerability frames are done, I can dodge with little repercussion. The Necromancers choices are to take the damage, (which as a light armor class, will likely hit for 6k) and lose a good margin of his health (nearly equivalent to his 25 second recharge heal), or absorb it via Death Shroud. Since likely the more effective choice is to absorb with Death Shroud, he loses 25-33% of his Life Force. This, while not damage to his actual health bar, is in most situations, a permanent or near permanent loss of defense. He can’t switch to staff very safely because it puts him in too defensive a position, I clearly have the upper hand and can continue to pressure his actual health bar as he regains his secondary one. At this point, knowing I have made a mark, can choose to disengage and start the fight again briefly, in a better starting position, or simply (using a crowd control on either my Focus or Greatsword) move away from the Necromancer and engage at range. His offense has been hampered by his necessity to play defensively, his defense has been hampered by his inability to easily regain it, and I am no worse for wear than when we began, as I have been covered by the inherent defense of my build. Being a Mesmer, I have access to stealth, teleports, invulnerability frames, constant vigor, and all are available while continuing offense. The stealth and teleport are instantaneous, the vigor is given while I attack, the invulnerability frames are tied to attacks or are instantaneous. The fight has progressed to a point where I still have available ways to avoid his damage, and have weakened him.

For the sake of argument, lets say that by some miracle of god, I make a mistake. I don’t disengage properly, and he gets a Grasping Dead into Burn applying Fear, I’m taking much more damage than my build can handle, dodging and invulnerability frames do nothing to defend me from the onslaught I am about to endure (or not). My Decoy and Blink are all well and good, but that doesn’t remove my Burning and Bleeding, and those will surely down me. Well, either I still have room for a condition cleanse (Mantra of Resolve clears 2 conditions and is a fear break, can be precast and used twice in rapid succession) or, not playing to the current meta, have zero condition cleanses and just straight up die.

Wait, I lost to a Necromancer, in a very rapid chain of events that has possible outs if I was running a build that worked against it? That doesn’t sound right, that defeats my entire argument. How am I supposed to be making this seem like Necromancers are both viable and not overpowered. Oh silly me, the exact same thing happens when I fight a Mesmer, Thief, Warrior, Guardian, Ranger, Engineer, or Elementalist. If I make a mistake and don’t properly prepare for or avoid their damage. I die.

Eviscerate hits while I have Blink on cooldown at the end of a dodge? 10k, half my health, easily followed up.

I don’t avoid the invisible Thief’s Backstab? 10k, half my health, easily followed up.

I don’t manage to stay away from the Ranger’s Jaguar, and it crits me for 4k while invisible as the Ranger shortbows me for even more damage? Clearly a poor position, where I am playing defensively.

A necromancer fears me and applies burning, while I have poison, torment, and 10 stacks of burning? A little bit of a more far fetched situation, but at the very worst, I take 10k damage over two seconds, easily followed up.

There is a trend here, and, since I’m not sure you’ll find it, here it is: Any build that focuses solely on offense has defensive weaknesses. Those offensive builds excel when they are played well and timed well, and suffer when they are misplayed and counterplayed.

Simply put: Just see my earlier comment. If you attack a Dhuumterror Necromancer, they are forced into a much less potent defensive style of play, or they die. If you allow them to sit there are stack up their 5000 damage per second over two seconds, you deserve to die bleeding, burning, poisoned, and running for your life.

I don’t actually expect you to read the last two posts, so I’ll summarize:

Just attack them, they ain’t got no gosh darned good defense.

Nemesis.8593:

Hey guys… i have something for you…

NECROMANCER OP

Long story short, i don’t use burning, i got moa-ed, i killed him… necromancer is OP.

Doesn’t it makes the blood rush to your head when you see how every random … no matter how … he is he still expects to kill a necromancer, and if he doesn’t we are OP ?

lol dam really, people are actually calling us noob OP class in PvP? That’s really interesting. I played sPvP after the patch quite abit but recently WvW is more fun, i didn’t realize so many randoms jumped on this OP bandwagon. I’m just glad enemies can’t talk in WvW without a party invite. ^^

Kanto.1659:

Azraeel.1238:

Pre patch, necromancers couldn’t roam WvW, no one suggested it, and barely anyone did it in the first place. Why? Because their low mobility made it difficult. Now, that they can stand their ground, people are crying? This is pathetic.

…

You should… read the thread before posting.

Said the mesmer?

Don’t worry, I have read this thread, and many of the other baby crying threads. I still find it, pathetic.

flow

First of all, there were people promoting necros as a roaming class pre-patch, I was one of them.
Saying that necros couldn’t stand their ground before is just not true.
On the other hand, the con argument always was bad mobility/survivability. This hasn’t changed, so I’m really wondering how people think we are now any better at solo roaming than we were before.

Really? Then sorry, I might have missed your posts in the past 2 months that I’ve been checking the forums with. I didn’t mean the word “stand your ground” so literary, I meant it metaphorically for “capable”. To some extent, Necromancers did get their survivability buffed, DS now refills faster, and you have access to decreased DS cooldown through master trait. Terror builds now are even better. So basically now you can actually roam with two builds who are more viable than pre-patch. True our mobility is the same, but running away was never the way we handled things.

Tobbygnome.6793:

Nemesis.8593:

Hey guys… i have something for you…

NECROMANCER OP

Long story short, i don’t use burning, i got moa-ed, i killed him… necromancer is OP.

Doesn’t it makes the blood rush to your head when you see how every random … no matter how … he is he still expects to kill a necromancer, and if he doesn’t we are OP ?

lol dam really, people are actually calling us noob OP class in PvP? That’s really interesting. I played sPvP after the patch quite abit but recently WvW is more fun, i didn’t realize so many randoms jumped on this OP bandwagon. I’m just glad enemies can’t talk in WvW without a party invite. ^^

Did you see his level ?… Because a lvl 9 mesmer couldn’t kill a lvl 29 necromancer, necromancer is OP… and he MOA-ed me while we were 1v1-ing…

So… because he didn’t insta-win with MOA at lvl 9 vs a necromancer, the necromancer is OP.

Azraeel.1238:

Kanto.1659:

Azraeel.1238:

Pre patch, necromancers couldn’t roam WvW, no one suggested it, and barely anyone did it in the first place. Why? Because their low mobility made it difficult. Now, that they can stand their ground, people are crying? This is pathetic.

…

You should… read the thread before posting.

Said the mesmer?

Don’t worry, I have read this thread, and many of the other baby crying threads. I still find it, pathetic.

Mesmer. And necro, and engineer. Golly, someone with more than one level 80 almost a year after the game came out.

Da Sonic.6521:

There is a trend here, and, since I’m not sure you’ll find it, here it is: Any build that focuses solely on offense has defensive weaknesses. Those offensive builds excel when they are played well and timed well, and suffer when they are misplayed and counterplayed.

Simply put: Just see my earlier comment. If you attack a Dhuumterror Necromancer, they are forced into a much less potent defensive style of play, or they die. If you allow them to sit there are stack up their 5000 damage per second over two seconds, you deserve to die bleeding, burning, poisoned, and running for your life.

Well.. this is where we disagree then.

You can still run your regular rabid gear or whatever, you can pick defensive runes and sigils, you can pick defensive utilities. Actually, the patch made Spectral wall and Well of Power rather effective defensive skills. Who’s to say that a Dhuumterror-mancer can’t use those..
Also, what kind of trait distribution were people running before? The standard 0/30/20/20/0… or something along those lines, I imagine. So when you trait 30/20/20/0/0 instead then all you lose is 200 vitality = 2k hp… not a big deal with an 18k hp pool (or 25k with carrion).

flow.6043:

Well.. this is where we disagree then.

You can still run your regular rabid gear or whatever, you can pick defensive runes and sigils, you can pick defensive utilities. Actually, the patch made Spectral wall and Well of Power rather effective defensive skills. Who’s to say that a Dhuumterror-mancer can’t use those..
Also, what kind of trait distribution were people running before? The standard 0/30/20/20/0… or something along those lines, I imagine. So when you trait 30/20/20/0/0 instead then all you lose is 200 vitality = 2k hp… not a big deal with an 18k hp pool (or 25k with carrion).

If 20 in blood was a standard and dhuumfire made people stop putting points into that waste of a trait-line, I may have just found where the average Necro went from awful to good.

Kiriakulos.1690:

If 20 in blood was a standard and dhuumfire made people stop putting points into that waste of a trait-line, I may have just found where the average Necro went from awful to good.

Yeah, I know.
It was just an example. Not everyone ran 20 in BM of course, which actually supports my argument. Maybe some had 15 in Soul Reaping for Last Gasp, or had 30 in Death Magic…
Either way, by traits alone you won’t get much tankier. The armor, amulet etc can stay the same, it’s not like you have to wear rampager or berserker.

flow.6043:

Da Sonic.6521:

There is a trend here, and, since I’m not sure you’ll find it, here it is: Any build that focuses solely on offense has defensive weaknesses. Those offensive builds excel when they are played well and timed well, and suffer when they are misplayed and counterplayed.

Simply put: Just see my earlier comment. If you attack a Dhuumterror Necromancer, they are forced into a much less potent defensive style of play, or they die. If you allow them to sit there are stack up their 5000 damage per second over two seconds, you deserve to die bleeding, burning, poisoned, and running for your life.

Well.. this is where we disagree then.

You can still run your regular rabid gear or whatever, you can pick defensive runes and sigils, you can pick defensive utilities. Actually, the patch made Spectral wall and Well of Power rather effective defensive skills. Who’s to say that a Dhuumterror-mancer can’t use those..
Also, what kind of trait distribution were people running before? The standard 0/30/20/20/0… or something along those lines, I imagine. So when you trait 30/20/20/0/0 instead then all you lose is 200 vitality = 2k hp… not a big deal with an 18k hp pool (or 25k with carrion).

You can use those, just like a full berserker Warrior can run Endure Pain, a full glass Thief can use Shadowstep/Shadow Refuge, a full zerk Mesmer can use Decoy and Blink, Lemongrass Poultry Soup, and Melandru Runes. If you’re meaning to say the abilities of offensive builds are too high, or their options to be offensive and maintain defensive options is too easy, and need to be toned down as a whole, that’s a different conversation entirely, because Necromancers are not any stronger than any other class in this regard.

Before the patch my Necro used 0/30/10/0/30 for the scepter bonuses and Stability on DS, now I run a variant of the Dhuumterror Necro with 30/20/0/0/20, because I don’t find the 33% longer Scepter conditions to be all that necessary with the added bonus from Spite. I can keep my Fears as effective as pre-update, and I can get some Spectral bonuses, mainly for Grasp, and occasionally Wall or Walk. I seriously doubt the extra 700 damage per second with a 50% uptime is what tipped the scales from Necromancers being underused and subpar to the massively overpowered, gods among mortals, tear your face off sadists everyone seems to be implying.

I don’t see what this aversion you have with Necromancers is. Their ability to do damage is lowered when they take more defensive runes, sigils, and utilities. Just like literally every single other damage focused build, taking defensive options raises your defense, and lowers your offense. Necromancers aren’t any different, they’re on par with Mesmers, Thieves, Warriors, Guardians, Engineers and I would hope that Anet continues to give all classes viable options. I legitimately want to be scared going into a fight with a talented player, be it one playing a Mesmer, a Necro, or a Ranger. I’ve been scared of Mesmers for months, this week I got a new-found fright of Necros. I’m still not scared of Rangers.

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

This.
Other classes, who specifically build to counter conditions can’t keep up. Then there are people arguing we should let the meta adept first… well, how much more can you do besides melandru and lemongrass? And how is this supposed to be balance when all classes have to max out their anti-condi defense (which is still not enough) just because of the necro?

No one should be able to completely shut down a condition user with a billion condition clears. This is part of the reason necromancers were bad in competitive team play before. Necromancers couldn’t keep up with the condition clears and it was impossible for necros to cover their bleed stack. They couldn’t kill anyone using a full condition clear set up. So now that necromancers can actually do some damage with their conditions, this is somehow deemed OP and needs nerfed? I don’t buy it one bit.

There’s supposed to be a middle-ground, however. One where condi clear lets you reduce conditions enough to hold your ground and fight. There needs to be counterplay, not “I stacked condi clears and played well but still got my butt kicked.” (Again, I’m speaking generally, not about my skill in particular.)

Da Sonic.6521:

I don’t actually expect you to read the last two posts, so I’ll summarize:

Just attack them, they ain’t got no gosh darned good defense.

Yes, that was my plan. It’s hard to attack, though, when you get dropped to 15% health instantly even when you get the drop on them and all your burst does is take out part of their DS. My thief build isn’t even full glass. It’s designed to have a bit of burst defense and good recovery (on top of good burst). Wasn’t enough.

SnyderHall.7263:

Rennoko.5731:

SnyderHall.7263:

I am going to play devil’s advocate here and defend thieves for a second.

Thieves are only OP against glass cannons / bad players. I am not pointing fingers, but you can deal with thieves very easily if you can live through their initial burst. Especially with DS, Necromancers should have no problems if prepared.

Judges ruling??? EHHHHH wrong…

Sorry for the rude response… but this is horribly inaccurate. Your statement is entirely true of bad thieves, or even mediocre thieves, not of exceptional thieves. The statement that you can deal with thieves very easily if you survive the intial burst means you are playing against the bad thieves. The good thieves have less burst, and significantly more survivability and mobility.

Triple signet burst 30/30/10 thief…. yes.. if you live 5 seconds into the fight you can win it pretty easy. But you won’t most of the time, especially if anyone else is around. Having a full DS bar soaks up a few hits, or a smart thief just stealths, waits for you to LEAVE DS, then bursts back onto you knowing you have no defense.

… and your statement is entirely inaccurate on the ground that you are talking about bad or mediocre Necros. See how easy it is to simply claim things to claim things? You also cannot use a constructed scenario as “evidence”. What is this whole “burst till no DS, come back burst more” business? What is the Necro doing while the Thief is dropping its incredible burst? Standing there? No wonder people think Thieves are OP.

Our petty anecdotal evidence does not mean much when players better than both of us can attest how incredible Necro is. It is not OP, in my opinion, just very good. Similarly, Thieves have always been the “incredibly OP when observed by new or unprepared players”but not impossible to counter at all class."

Also, ya know what? Even if you are onto something, Thieves were intended to be great at roaming (even best) but one of the worst (if not the worst) at zergs with their Tissue-paper like defense and laughable amount of Aoe. I don’t know what server you play on, but WvWs are generally not won by how many kills people get while roaming around.

We, of course, know how effective Necros are in sPvP at the moment.

All the evidence is anecdotal evidence, in a video game, unless we are talking about game mechanics. Controlling and adjusting parameters based on skills isn’t even possible. And to your statement what is the necro doing… well it only takes a few seconds to break the DS all the way down to zero, so possibly scratching his nose?

My point is, your statement was “Thieves are only OP against glass cannons / bad players.”. I am telling you that is a bold faced, and incorrect statement. Just because you don’t know any exceptional thieves capable of beating a necro into the ground, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. This has no bearing whatsoever on the necro or the necro’s skill level.

Take a mediocre thief pre-patch, and a mediocre nerco pre-patch, and the thief would stomp the necro into the ground. I would contend that is still the case, but the fight is much more level, even tilted to favor the necro with a burning fear build.

Thief is also invaluable in a zerg because of their nearly limitless blasting potential… one of the most important classes to have a few of in a zerg if you are light on blast.

Not arguing anything other than the the thief toolkit is designed to be OP against other classes in the open field, which is fine, but to claim only bad necros feel that inherent advantage is to ignore the reality.

I fear nothing more than a zerker thief in WvW, because he can come into a 2vX fight and deuce all over me in a few hits. Since I can’t see him coming, and he is likely going to hit me while my insta-fear is on CD, I have a good reason to fear that 7.5k backstab that is coming my way. No matter how paper he is, all he has to do is find an opening. Sub any other class in there, and the outcome is drastically different.

Blaine Tog.8304:

I feel as if some of you aren’t reading my posts in full and getting all defensive over nothing. Though I suppose that doesn’t really surprise me. All I’ll say for clarification is that this new spec sucks to play against and doesn’t feel like Necro attrition to play. I don’t think it’s overpowered exactly, but it’s lopsided and needs adjustment.

Before I begin, I want to clarify that I love my Thief and she’s my top 3 favorite class along with my Guardian and Ele. I also have a Necro but she’s way down at the 7th slot and not even a level 80. So I’m saying my heart is more bias in favor of my Thief.

Now that that’s cleared. I’ll say this, you got beat by a good player. You’re at least man enough to admit the spec is not OP. But all you’re doing is venting your fustration – from losing to someone twice – on a public board….not a mature move, especially when you have the ability to blindside anyone in stealth, “AND” vanish right before you die.

Bolero Bloodreign.9025:

Now that that’s cleared. I’ll say this, you got beat by a good player. You’re at least man enough to admit the spec is not OP. But all you’re doing is venting your fustration – from losing to someone twice – on a public board….not a mature move, especially when you have the ability to blindside anyone in stealth, “AND” vanish right before you die.

No, I wasn’t frustrated. I didn’t keep coming back because she had kitten ed me off or anything — as I mentioned, I added her to party so I could compliment her on her play.

The initial encounter was very surprising. I’m almost never melted that quickly by anyone except very good enemy thieves who get the jump on me, so I was curious how the fight would play out. Would it, like when fighting thieves, come down to who jumps whom? I had also previously been of the opinion that the Necro’s burst still wasn’t particularly excessive, so I wanted to see if I had truly underestimated it or if this Necro had just gotten lucky. It would seem she did not.

And again, this isn’t a thread about thieves. It’s possible they could stand to be adjusted as well, but, well, those discussions are what the Thief forum is for.

I’m saying your fustration shows by posting this in your original thread.

It is suddenly much clearer to me why everyone else seems to think that spec is OP.

That burst…..

You probably don’t realize what you’re doing but calling another class’ spec OP is generally a complaint. Posting a thread about it stating it to be “lopsided and needs adjustment” on a public forum is generally due out of fustration.

If you still claim that you’re not fustrated with the necro or her spec and added her to your friend’s list, you should of encluded that in the very first thread you posted. Mentioning it later after several replies just makes it seem like you’re covering up your feelings. I would stop if I where you. You making it seem like people are gullible.

I can also tell you the person is a good player and the spec is not OP. It’s because you’re surprise and didn’t expect to be being beaten twice by the same person. Most thieves know a good counter to a thief is a mesmer and is OP against them. If you lost a battle against a mesmer, it wouldn’t have been a surprise to you.

My better suggestion would be to say “I got beat my a good player. Kudos to the person playing a necro using a 30/30/10 spec” and just end it right there.

Bolero Bloodreign.9025:

I’m saying your fustration shows by posting this in your original thread.

And I’m saying I wasn’t frustrated. My tone was intended to be one of awe. Of revelation.

Bolero Bloodreign.9025:

You probably don’t realize what you’re doing but calling another class’ spec OP is generally a complaint. Posting a thread about it stating it to be “lopsided and needs adjustment” on a public forum is generally due out of fustration.

I actually play my Necro a bit more. And I know what QQ threads are. Just because some people like to whine doesn’t mean we should cease to discuss whether the game is in a good place or whether it could use tweaks. Would you rather ONLY hear from people who hadn’t experienced being on both sides of this spec?

Bolero Bloodreign.9025:

I can also tell you the person is a good player and the spec is not OP. It’s because you’re surprise and didn’t expect to be being beaten twice by the same person. Most thieves know a good counter to a thief is a mesmer and is OP against them. If you lost a battle against a mesmer, it wouldn’t have been a surprise to you.

Once again, it wasn’t a surprise after the first fight (from which I escaped).

Look, you’re free to try to slander me and speculate about my mental state as much as you’d like, but I’d really rather keep the conversation centered on the game as much as possible. If you want to argue that the spec isn’t OP and the Necro shouldn’t see further changes, that’s fine. Please just stay on topic.

Last I checked it takes 2 hits from a thief to drop full SR DS… soooo much mitigation there… Lul.
All your imaginary “skill” arguments is attempts at attention. You are not better then the guy that turns with arrow keys and mouse clicks his skills. You just wave your kitten on forums more.

Anyway all this whining about necro and op… will wear off since it will get nerfed into oblivion and then some. God forbid kitten friendly classes like warrior and thief and beloved mesmers have a problem with something.

Interesting to note. Once that fire crap is gone… and cb is pretty much useless utility now. What utilities are people going to use with condition now? Epidemic..+ ? + ? . We know the wall will get nerfed. So whats left?

Jackums.3496:

Is a Thief really complaining about another profession’s burst right now?

Let me enjoy this. Go on, continue.

Grab a chair and sit down, saved a spot for you… i’m still watching and laughing, this is great.

Jackums.3496:

Is a Thief really complaining about another profession’s burst right now?

Let me enjoy this. Go on, continue.

He isn’t complaining, everyone thinks that when something is posted about their class that isn’t advice on how to do better, it’s a complaint. Since I main a thief and alt a necromancer idk but from the start I could feel his emotion was more so of awe and surprise. If I were in his shoes I’d be surprised by being bursted down by a necromancer. I think you guys are missing the point, you’re making fun of a thief for “complaining” about burst when you’re only proving his point, thieves are known for their burst, not necros, so when a necro bursts you down it’s like a, “uhh what just happened?” Not a OMG NERF. That outta the way what is this attrition you guys throw around what does that mean ? :p

Iam running Power Speccs in WvW (much more efficent in 20v20) but ofc Iv tried CondiSpeccs and 30-30-10, My question for OP and all those whiners out there is: Is it just the new Burn that makeing you pee your pants now or is it because there is simply more Necros out there ?

We had the Terror option for a kitten long time so the 1200-1500 Fear Tick cant be the reason you Calling us OP nor the 3sec Fear. It cant be Spectral Wall cause you all know we wont flip your kittening Stability with Corrupt Boon anymore. So the numbers still the same. So a 700-800/s Burn Tick is what got you all so kittening scared then ?

Why dont you grow a pair, I can say that I didnt whine like this when a 15k Backstab + 8k Heartseeker killed me instantly.

ps: and to the ones saying the Spectral Wall is AoE & we run into it multiple times, Id say seriously if you do maybe re Think if PvP is for you.

Rave

Nemesis.8593:

Jackums.3496:

Is a Thief really complaining about another profession’s burst right now?

Let me enjoy this. Go on, continue.

Grab a chair and sit down, saved a spot for you… i’m still watching and laughing, this is great.

This confuses me. We agreed earlier in the thread that the Necro should be more about attrition than burst, did we not?

RedSpectrum.1975:

Jackums.3496:

Is a Thief really complaining about another profession’s burst right now?

Let me enjoy this. Go on, continue.

He isn’t complaining, everyone thinks that when something is posted about their class that isn’t advice on how to do better, it’s a complaint. Since I main a thief and alt a necromancer idk but from the start I could feel his emotion was more so of awe and surprise. If I were in his shoes I’d be surprised by being bursted down by a necromancer. I think you guys are missing the point, you’re making fun of a thief for “complaining” about burst when you’re only proving his point, thieves are known for their burst, not necros, so when a necro bursts you down it’s like a, “uhh what just happened?” Not a OMG NERF. That outta the way what is this attrition you guys throw around what does that mean ? :p

Thank you, this is my point.

It isn’t OP for the Necro to have really high spike condi damage, lots of AoE damage, lots of CC, and some built-in defense but little disengage and escape. That setup can be obnoxious for some specs to deal with (which is its own problem) but it does still have inherent trade-offs. But it’s not how the Necro was advertised and if Anet leaves them like they are, it will be the laziest possible way to balance the profession. We are supposed to be an attrition class, a class that grabs onto our foes and squeezes the life out of them as they struggle to escape. Not a profession that spikes them into the ground the moment they come within range. High burst is fine conceptually, but it isn’t what sold me on the Necromancer. It’s all the nasty tricks we can pull. We finally have an apex build like many of the other professions, and that’s bad. Like with apex builds of the other professions, it’s going to warp every other build by comparison.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Nemesis.8593:

Jackums.3496:

Is a Thief really complaining about another profession’s burst right now?

Let me enjoy this. Go on, continue.

Grab a chair and sit down, saved a spot for you… i’m still watching and laughing, this is great.

This confuses me. We agreed earlier in the thread that the Necro should be more about attrition than burst, did we not?

RedSpectrum.1975:

Jackums.3496:

Is a Thief really complaining about another profession’s burst right now?

Let me enjoy this. Go on, continue.

He isn’t complaining, everyone thinks that when something is posted about their class that isn’t advice on how to do better, it’s a complaint. Since I main a thief and alt a necromancer idk but from the start I could feel his emotion was more so of awe and surprise. If I were in his shoes I’d be surprised by being bursted down by a necromancer. I think you guys are missing the point, you’re making fun of a thief for “complaining” about burst when you’re only proving his point, thieves are known for their burst, not necros, so when a necro bursts you down it’s like a, “uhh what just happened?” Not a OMG NERF. That outta the way what is this attrition you guys throw around what does that mean ? :p

Thank you, this is my point.

It isn’t OP for the Necro to have really high spike condi damage, lots of AoE damage, lots of CC, and some built-in defense but little disengage and escape. That setup can be obnoxious for some specs to deal with (which is its own problem) but it does still have inherent trade-offs. But it’s not how the Necro was advertised and if Anet leaves them like they are, it will be the laziest possible way to balance the profession. We are supposed to be an attrition class, a class that grabs onto our foes and squeezes the life out of them as they struggle to escape. Not a profession that spikes them into the ground the moment they come within range. High burst is fine conceptually, but it isn’t what sold me on the Necromancer. It’s all the nasty tricks we can pull. We finally have an apex build like many of the other professions, and that’s bad. Like with apex builds of the other professions, it’s going to warp every other build by comparison.

NECROMANCER OP
Long story short, i don’t use burning, i got moa-ed, i killed him… necromancer is OP.

Doesn’t it makes the blood rush to your head when you see how every random … no matter how … he is he still expects to kill a necromancer, and if he doesn’t we are OP ?

Sorry mate, maybe it seemed a bit offensive… it was just a joke, a comeback to all the times i’ve been called OP NOOB the past 5 days.

I don’t even use burning in my builds… and while i do agree that it would benefit the overall balance a lot more if the combo burning + bleeding + terror gets a bit of nerfed and we get some anti-focus survivability instead… all the threads that just ask for necromancer nerf get to me.

The mesmer was rank 9, and i was rank 29… but necromancer is OP because he could not kill me. I’m just sick and tired of how many times people called me OP noob… all i did was modify my build to fit torment in it… is torment OP now too ?

I have nothing against you, you seem like a decent fellow… but these threads, and the whispers… anyway, sorry if it came out a bit strong.

I faced a thief x/x/x/x

Yap! Dead in a few seconds.. that burst…must be OP…

So much screaming for OP cause of burning. It says it right there at the patch notes “BURNING”, so go figure out how to clence yourself..

So many indirectly says by their panic screams of OPness, “I was totally taken by surprise cause a Necro actually could kill me, and he did it fast even”.

Meh!

Here, let me do a little comparison between necro and thief:

Necro
-A ton of powerful AoE abilities that are easy to hit a thief through stealth with
-Highest health pool in game
-DS: A form in which you have access to massive ranged and AoE burst abilities as well as being temporarily invulnerable to damage to your normal health pool
-Condition cleansing: A heal that removes all condis, Staff #4, Plague signet, a well that flips condis to boons
-Conditions: Access to every condition in the game other than confusion on low cool down skills that already do decent direct damage.

Thief:

-Almost no AoE
-Lowest health pool in the game
-Stealing: Gap closer with decent special attack
-Condition cleansing: Stealth, 1 every 3 seconds.
-Conditions: Other than venoms, thief conditions are mostly either blinds or bleeding, blind fields are small and easy to avoid, bleeds are easy to wipe.

If you are losing to a thief in 1v1 situations on a necro, you need to reexamine your build.

I’ve spent twice as much time on my necro as my thief, but when I hear people actually complaining about thief I find it ridiculous. SO WHAT if the class can ‘run away’, if a thief runs away that means you were beating him, obviously. It’s the freaking assassin/rogue class of GW2, that means it should be more mobile than the other classes.

Necromancer’s burst is out of control right now. Unlike thief, it requires absolutely no positioning or special conditions (like heartseeker needing 50% health to be effective). A necromancer with life force can wait for a thief to strike, hit DS 3 and then hit DS 1 for a -7K- hit and the thief is already at half health (or below if burning/terror damage is part of the build). Even if a thief manages to stealth his way up to a necromancer and hit him for a 10k backstab (highly improbably), that’s a smaller percentage of the necro’s health than what I just described the necro being able to do.

It is suddenly much clearer to me why everyone else seems to think that Thiefs are OP.
That burst…..
_