Guild Wars 2

Tim.6450:

TheLastNobody.8319:

… and I wouldn’t hold it pass ANEt to make it so that if we exit reaper shroud during infusing terror, we stop getting stability.

I thought that was said during the stream and that they were debating to remove the stability all together.

I don’t recall that. But honestly….again I wouldn’t hold it past them. I’ve lost a lot of Trust with ANET after the whole specialization patch fiasco. Yes they did buff spite, DM, and made blood magic, but that’s just paint compared to the core problems that plague us….but I’m gonna hold off on the rant. The beta will be here this weekend, and HOPEFULLY they will listen to any concerns we may have, i mean heck, it worked with revenant, and while half finished they were looking worse off than we were.

Tim.6450:

TheLastNobody.8319:

… and I wouldn’t hold it pass ANEt to make it so that if we exit reaper shroud during infusing terror, we stop getting stability.

I thought that was said during the stream and that they were debating to remove the stability all together.

No, what they said regarding Infusing Terror was that exiting RS used to remove it but they changed that. Now you can drop out of RS and keep the stability. We saw an old version of the skill.

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nyth.3492:

Tim.6450:

That’s the point it doesn’t. reaper gravedigger spam (meaning using nothing but gravedigger all the time) is weaker then dagger 1 spam.

If this is really true, they dun goofed.

To be fair, it’s really hard to make a weapon do more damage than dagger 1 spam without making said weapon disgustingly OP. Necro dagger 1 has hilarious damage ratios.

I think the thing that sets apart GS will be the chill spam tbh. It creates some interesting synergy with necro traits which will make it an appealing option. Also the fact that frequent application of chill is pretty strong in itself.

You clearly haven’t played warrior mainhand axe, which cleaves 3 targets instead of 2 as well. It’s significantly greater damage output than necro dagger, just try it.

You clearly haven’t used ele lightning whip or fireball+lava font autoattacks.

This comment is pretty ignorant.

Necromancer dagger AA is only seen as strong because of PvP idiocy, dagger is one of the most mediocre weapons.

When a thief in PvE is getting 20k backstabs every 4 seconds in between his autoattacls, which do similar damage to necro dagger, it makes you reconsider.

Making GS a niche AoE weapon also makes it useless against most bosses in PvE, and dagger is already pretty mediocre.

I have used warrior axe.

The warrior axe coefficients are all 0.7 except the final hit of the chain which is 1.5. The “double chop” skill says it’s 1.4 but it’s pretty misleading since it doesn’t come out very fast for a “double hit” type of skill.

Necro dagger is 0.9, 0.7, 1.4.

Thief dagger is 0.56, 0.85, 0.85. lol “similar”

Thief dagger is only good once a boss gets to low health and you spam heartseeker. If you want a strong autoattack chain try the thief sword. 0.8, 0.8, 1.3.

I’ll go test the attack speeds when I feel less lazy.

….. You forgot the coefficients.

Warrior gets 20% from berserker power+ 10% against bleeding targets. 30% damage bonus all the time.

Thief gets 10% against a foe with conditions, 20% against someone <50% health, 6-12% damage bonus on backstab from tricks build of 1% bonus per initiative point, 200 power when revealed (which is close to 90% uptime since the thief rotation is auto chaain>CnD>Backstab>auto chain while 4 sec revealed wears off> Repeat). 10% ferocity from precision, 7% crit damage bonus while above health threshold. 10% increased critical damage on foes above 50% health. 250 ferocity from gaining fury.

Necro gets….20% damage against targets below 50% health.

Thief sword auto is a single target DPS loss. Their single target weapon in PvE is dagger.

Funny though how you forgot to mention ele in that response, though. There is nothing stronger than fireball+lava font in terms of auto damage.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

Silverkey.2078:

@Khristophoros
Well you have to at least admit there is a reason for the fact that necro is the lowest DPS of the game: bad weapon damage + few damage multipliers. As I said earlier, the AA of dagger is one of the highest but we don’t have any additional burst skill. This means we have one of the most boring damage rotation of all (57811111111111111) and a low total DPS.
The way the GS is built, I’m fine with the AA being weaker than the dagger AA, but gravedigger should be stronger, while it appears it isn’t.

I am not sure why people would be comparing a cooldown skill to an autoattack chain. Gravedigger is in addition to the AA chain. It doesn’t do all of your damage by itself.

I mean are you gonna compare hundred blades to an attack chain? It has a 4.21 coefficient which is good burst but on an 8s cooldown that’s pretty bad DPS. However, taking 3.5s out of your chain to drop that burst improves your overall DPS. The same concept will apply to gravedigger.

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

For some reason I thought the cooldown was just reduced by 50% lol.

According to the wiki, the dagger chain only takes 2.1s which means the coefficient is approximately 1.43 per second. To beat that gravedigger needs to have an attack rate of more than 0.714 attacks per second. Do we know the actual attack rate on gravedigger spam?

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nyth.3492:

Tim.6450:

That’s the point it doesn’t. reaper gravedigger spam (meaning using nothing but gravedigger all the time) is weaker then dagger 1 spam.

If this is really true, they dun goofed.

To be fair, it’s really hard to make a weapon do more damage than dagger 1 spam without making said weapon disgustingly OP. Necro dagger 1 has hilarious damage ratios.

I think the thing that sets apart GS will be the chill spam tbh. It creates some interesting synergy with necro traits which will make it an appealing option. Also the fact that frequent application of chill is pretty strong in itself.

You clearly haven’t played warrior mainhand axe, which cleaves 3 targets instead of 2 as well. It’s significantly greater damage output than necro dagger, just try it.

You clearly haven’t used ele lightning whip or fireball+lava font autoattacks.

This comment is pretty ignorant.

Necromancer dagger AA is only seen as strong because of PvP idiocy, dagger is one of the most mediocre weapons.

When a thief in PvE is getting 20k backstabs every 4 seconds in between his autoattacls, which do similar damage to necro dagger, it makes you reconsider.

Making GS a niche AoE weapon also makes it useless against most bosses in PvE, and dagger is already pretty mediocre.

I have used warrior axe.

The warrior axe coefficients are all 0.7 except the final hit of the chain which is 1.5. The “double chop” skill says it’s 1.4 but it’s pretty misleading since it doesn’t come out very fast for a “double hit” type of skill.

Necro dagger is 0.9, 0.7, 1.4.

Thief dagger is 0.56, 0.85, 0.85. lol “similar”

Thief dagger is only good once a boss gets to low health and you spam heartseeker. If you want a strong autoattack chain try the thief sword. 0.8, 0.8, 1.3.

I’ll go test the attack speeds when I feel less lazy.

….. You forgot the coefficients.

Warrior gets 20% from berserker power+ 10% against bleeding targets. 30% damage bonus all the time.

Thief gets 10% against a foe with conditions, 20% against someone on low health, 6-12% damage bonus on backstab from tricks build of 1% bonus per initiative point, 200 power when revealed (which is close to 90% uptime since the thief rotation is auto chaain>CnD>Backstab>auto chain while 4 sec revealed wears off> Repeat). 10% ferocity from precision, 7% crit damage bonus while above health threshold. 10% increased critical damage on foes above 50% health. 250 ferocity from gaining fury.

Necro gets….20% damage against targets below 50% health.

Thief sword auto is a single target DPS loss. Their single target weapon in PvE is dagger.

Yeah necro literally only has one trait.

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nyth.3492:

Tim.6450:

That’s the point it doesn’t. reaper gravedigger spam (meaning using nothing but gravedigger all the time) is weaker then dagger 1 spam.

If this is really true, they dun goofed.

To be fair, it’s really hard to make a weapon do more damage than dagger 1 spam without making said weapon disgustingly OP. Necro dagger 1 has hilarious damage ratios.

I think the thing that sets apart GS will be the chill spam tbh. It creates some interesting synergy with necro traits which will make it an appealing option. Also the fact that frequent application of chill is pretty strong in itself.

You clearly haven’t played warrior mainhand axe, which cleaves 3 targets instead of 2 as well. It’s significantly greater damage output than necro dagger, just try it.

You clearly haven’t used ele lightning whip or fireball+lava font autoattacks.

This comment is pretty ignorant.

Necromancer dagger AA is only seen as strong because of PvP idiocy, dagger is one of the most mediocre weapons.

When a thief in PvE is getting 20k backstabs every 4 seconds in between his autoattacls, which do similar damage to necro dagger, it makes you reconsider.

Making GS a niche AoE weapon also makes it useless against most bosses in PvE, and dagger is already pretty mediocre.

I have used warrior axe.

The warrior axe coefficients are all 0.7 except the final hit of the chain which is 1.5. The “double chop” skill says it’s 1.4 but it’s pretty misleading since it doesn’t come out very fast for a “double hit” type of skill.

Necro dagger is 0.9, 0.7, 1.4.

Thief dagger is 0.56, 0.85, 0.85. lol “similar”

Thief dagger is only good once a boss gets to low health and you spam heartseeker. If you want a strong autoattack chain try the thief sword. 0.8, 0.8, 1.3.

I’ll go test the attack speeds when I feel less lazy.

….. You forgot the coefficients.

Warrior gets 20% from berserker power+ 10% against bleeding targets. 30% damage bonus all the time.

Thief gets 10% against a foe with conditions, 20% against someone on low health, 6-12% damage bonus on backstab from tricks build of 1% bonus per initiative point, 200 power when revealed (which is close to 90% uptime since the thief rotation is auto chaain>CnD>Backstab>auto chain while 4 sec revealed wears off> Repeat). 10% ferocity from precision, 7% crit damage bonus while above health threshold. 10% increased critical damage on foes above 50% health. 250 ferocity from gaining fury.

Necro gets….20% damage against targets below 50% health.

Thief sword auto is a single target DPS loss. Their single target weapon in PvE is dagger.

Yeah necro literally only has one trait.

One % damage increase coefficient, yes, and the single one he has is a conditional to boot.

And it makes a world of a difference. Just play a thief, warrior, or ele. It’s not even close.

Khristophoros.7194:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

Silverkey.2078:

@Khristophoros
Well you have to at least admit there is a reason for the fact that necro is the lowest DPS of the game: bad weapon damage + few damage multipliers. As I said earlier, the AA of dagger is one of the highest but we don’t have any additional burst skill. This means we have one of the most boring damage rotation of all (57811111111111111) and a low total DPS.
The way the GS is built, I’m fine with the AA being weaker than the dagger AA, but gravedigger should be stronger, while it appears it isn’t.

I am not sure why people would be comparing a cooldown skill to an autoattack chain. Gravedigger is in addition to the AA chain. It doesn’t do all of your damage by itself.

I mean are you gonna compare hundred blades to an attack chain? It has a 4.21 coefficient which is good burst but on an 8s cooldown that’s pretty bad DPS. However, taking 3.5s out of your chain to drop that burst improves your overall DPS. The same concept will apply to gravedigger.

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

For some reason I thought the cooldown was just reduced by 50% lol.

According to the wiki, the dagger chain only takes 2.1s which means the coefficient is approximately 1.43 per second. To beat that gravedigger needs to have an attack rate of more than 0.714 attacks per second. Do we know the actual attack rate on gravedigger spam?

1.25 second cast time means that, without aftercast, you’re looking at .8 attacks per second. Even a mere 1/4 second aftercast drops it to .667 attacks/second

I think one of the biggest things people are underestimating about Reaper is the shear damage mitigation potential it has. -20% damage from chilled and poisoned foes (10% each), Protection from trained Wells, and high access to AoE weakness (which makes 50% of hits do 50% damage and prevents critical hits) – so against a foe with Weakness, camping your wells while applying weakness, chilled, and poison, you take damage 33.75% of what you would have taken (-66.25% damage reduction) and an extra 50% innate physical damage reduction while in Shroud. Since damage reduction from Shroud takes place after all other calculations, you’d mitigate a total of 83.1% damage, taking only 16.9% of the damage that would have been dealt to you without your opponent being able to crit, further decreasing your damage taken.

In a frontline situation, you could easily rely on the protection buff from Guardians in the Frontline of a zerg while applying your three important conditions out to enemies. You could also very easily call out to place down light fields (or use Well of Blood) and use the Reaper’s Shroud 4 for a massive AoE condi clear on your allies. The frontline tanking capabilities of Reaper, in theorycraft, could be terrifying in an organized role.

Unfortunately innate damage reduction in shroud is bugged, so I wouldn’t be counting that in any calculations.

Bhawb.7408:

Unfortunately innate damage reduction in shroud is bugged, so I wouldn’t be counting that in any calculations.

It’s not bugged. The damage numbers in the UI are bugged.

I noticed the shroud damage reduction a long time ago but I never told anyone about it. Only recently did somebody else notice it and add it to the wiki. It’s not documented anywhere in game so I wasn’t sure if it was supposed to do that or not. I’m pretty sure it’s been doing this since day 1 so if Anet decides it’s a bug and removes it, we’d be totally screwed.

Anyway, I know it works because I would tank a 30k hit from a boss and my 17k shroud would absorb the whole hit without breaking. The game told me I took 30k damage but I actually took 15k, otherwise my shroud would have broken with an excess 15k dealt to my health as well.

I’m not talking about the difference in numbers between UI and actual LF lost, I’m aware of that, I’m saying the 50% reduction simply doesn’t apply consistently. Sometimes its 15%, sometimes its 30%, sometimes its 50%, and its totally random.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m not talking about the difference in numbers between UI and actual LF lost, I’m aware of that, I’m saying the 50% reduction simply doesn’t apply consistently. Sometimes its 15%, sometimes its 30%, sometimes its 50%, and its totally random.

In my experience it’s always consistent. Every time I fight the grawl shaman (before imbued) and I tank his earth explosion thing the UI says 30k and it does 15k to my shroud.

There is a catch to this mechanic. If the damage is enough to break shroud you either don’t get any damage reduction or the excess doesn’t get reduced. I don’t know which it is, haven’t tested that part.

Yes I’m aware of how it works and multiple people have posted video proof that it is not working consistently right now.

Bhawb.7408:

Yes I’m aware of how it works and multiple people have posted video proof that it is not working consistently right now.

Considering that it is not officially documented, maybe it is more complicated than 50% damage reduction and is actually working as intended. Anet never said how it’s supposed to work.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the damage reduction increases the more damage is taken, to a cap of 50%. I’ve never bothered to test for tons of smaller hits. It’s a pain to test since the UI doesn’t track it.

It wasn’t like that before, it was heavily tested since it was discovered not that long after launch and it was always a consistent 50% until March from what I’ve been told.

So in which cases does not not work as expected? I’ve mostly just noted that in heavy burst situations it appears to be 50%. Even against Tazza’s stacked AoEs that are technically many individual hits.

Zenith.7301:

One % damage increase coefficient, yes, and the single one he has is a conditional to boot.
And it makes a world of a difference. Just play a thief, warrior, or ele. It’s not even close.

Actually there are three, spiteful talisman is 5% against targets with no boons and spite minor 3 is another +5% when you have more than 50% life force. $ if you count the axe one but nobody takes that. Also damage modifiers are cumulative not additive. So with those three mods you actually have +32% damage. Other classes with their own mods can reach 50% or around there. The reason we dont have another damage modifier is because we can stack vulnerability extremely high and quickly on our own. Reapers can even do this much faster and in an aoe while still doing damage. Thing is in a party setting where vuln is always maxed out we lose out because we lack the other 1 or 2 %based damage mods that other classes have to cover that innate lack of strong vuln generation.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

Silverkey.2078:

@Khristophoros
Well you have to at least admit there is a reason for the fact that necro is the lowest DPS of the game: bad weapon damage + few damage multipliers. As I said earlier, the AA of dagger is one of the highest but we don’t have any additional burst skill. This means we have one of the most boring damage rotation of all (57811111111111111) and a low total DPS.
The way the GS is built, I’m fine with the AA being weaker than the dagger AA, but gravedigger should be stronger, while it appears it isn’t.

I am not sure why people would be comparing a cooldown skill to an autoattack chain. Gravedigger is in addition to the AA chain. It doesn’t do all of your damage by itself.

I mean are you gonna compare hundred blades to an attack chain? It has a 4.21 coefficient which is good burst but on an 8s cooldown that’s pretty bad DPS. However, taking 3.5s out of your chain to drop that burst improves your overall DPS. The same concept will apply to gravedigger.

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

For some reason I thought the cooldown was just reduced by 50% lol.

According to the wiki, the dagger chain only takes 2.1s which means the coefficient is approximately 1.43 per second. To beat that gravedigger needs to have an attack rate of more than 0.714 attacks per second. Do we know the actual attack rate on gravedigger spam?

1.25 second cast time means that, without aftercast, you’re looking at .8 attacks per second. Even a mere 1/4 second aftercast drops it to .667 attacks/second

As long as the weapon is hitting more than 3 targets great sword does more damage overall. Its deals with groups much better as a weapon as a whole but dagger still does more single target damage. Its also a better weapon to use shroud skills with because of the higher weapon damage. I see no reason why a weapon designed to cleave and deal with groups of stuff should have the same single target damage as a mostly single target weapon. They didnt design the GS to replace the dagger.

i think reaper will be great in PvE, it’ll suck pvp wise..

Its just too slow, im sorry but GW2 pvp is basically entirely based on mobility, part of the reason necromancers arnt great is the lack of mobility, which tbh makes me wonder why they made reaper as it currently is.

but i do think it’ll bne a upgrade for pve necros, i dont think it’ll benefit the pvp playerbase at all though tbh…

Drayos.8759:

i think reaper will be great in PvE, it’ll suck pvp wise..

Its just too slow, im sorry but GW2 pvp is basically entirely based on mobility, part of the reason necromancers arnt great is the lack of mobility, which tbh makes me wonder why they made reaper as it currently is.

but i do think it’ll bne a upgrade for pve necros, i dont think it’ll benefit the pvp playerbase at all though tbh…

I think you are getting confused …..
GS =/= Reaper. Gs is “slow” but not that slow as people imagine.
Reaper in general is faster on the ground than necro and its shroud is also much faster.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

WEXXES.2378:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

Just to be clear, according to the other thread where they said they had the coefficients, Gravedigger has a 2.0 coefficient.

The dagger chain is a total of 3.0 coefficient over the whole chain and supposedly it takes only 2.1 seconds to do the whole chain.

Something to keep in mind is the cast times in game are always wrong and the wiki is often wrong. I’ve tested weapons before and they didn’t match the wiki’s numbers. I will test all these things myself during the BWE.

Khristophoros.7194:

WEXXES.2378:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

Just to be clear, according to the other thread where they said they had the coefficients, Gravedigger has a 2.0 coefficient.

The dagger chain is a total of 3.0 coefficient over the whole chain and supposedly it takes only 2.1 seconds to do the whole chain.

Something to keep in mind is the cast times in game are always wrong and the wiki is often wrong. I’ve tested weapons before and they didn’t match the wiki’s numbers. I will test all these things myself during the BWE.

Dagger has 2.8 coefficients per chain over 2.1 seconds. Gravedigger is 2.0 coefficients/chain over ~1.8 seconds. Greatsword does 10% more damage on average than dagger, so we’ll factor that as a 2.2 coefficient to keep the comparison on actual damage output accurate.

2.8/2.1=1.333 coefficients/second. 2.2/1.8=1.222 coefficients/second.

Against one or two targets, you’re better off dagger autoing than gravedigger spam. You just do more damage.

I guess they will still tweak the numbers.
I could imagine from PvE perspective that GS will be used against trash, and D/WH against bosses/single targets.
To be really viable Nec will still need a lot more damage or some kind of useful group support (or a lot more damage). Vampiric Presence is going in the right direction, but it is still too weak to make Nec really a group wide damage boost.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

WEXXES.2378:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

Just to be clear, according to the other thread where they said they had the coefficients, Gravedigger has a 2.0 coefficient.

The dagger chain is a total of 3.0 coefficient over the whole chain and supposedly it takes only 2.1 seconds to do the whole chain.

Something to keep in mind is the cast times in game are always wrong and the wiki is often wrong. I’ve tested weapons before and they didn’t match the wiki’s numbers. I will test all these things myself during the BWE.

Dagger has 2.8 coefficients per chain over 2.1 seconds. Gravedigger is 2.0 coefficients/chain over ~1.8 seconds. Greatsword does 10% more damage on average than dagger, so we’ll factor that as a 2.2 coefficient to keep the comparison on actual damage output accurate.

2.8/2.1=1.333 coefficients/second. 2.2/1.8=1.222 coefficients/second.

Against one or two targets, you’re better off dagger autoing than gravedigger spam. You just do more damage.

The coeff is actually 1.9 for grave digger and you can’t just say GS goes 10% more damage. Because the number was reverse engineered the coeffs we have already factor in gs’s higher weapon damage anyways.

The only time that works is when you are using them to preform the same skill I.e. using shroud skills. Shroud skills used with a GS will do more damage than shroud skills used with a dagger+offhand.

Sigmoid.7082:

…snip
The only time that works is when you are using them to preform the same skill I.e. using shroud skills. Shroud skills used with a GS will do more damage than shroud skills used with a dagger+offhand.

Seeing as I will try to spend 90% of my time in RS this is the only thing that really matters for a shroud camper like myself. I can honestly see me only leaving shroud to do a 4/5 combo on the GS just to group things up and get a bit of LF. I should mention that I only plan on using my reaper in PvE simply because IMO the changes still don’t make it a viable option for PvP or WvW but I look forward to be proven wrong.

Sigmoid.7082:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

WEXXES.2378:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

Just to be clear, according to the other thread where they said they had the coefficients, Gravedigger has a 2.0 coefficient.

The dagger chain is a total of 3.0 coefficient over the whole chain and supposedly it takes only 2.1 seconds to do the whole chain.

Something to keep in mind is the cast times in game are always wrong and the wiki is often wrong. I’ve tested weapons before and they didn’t match the wiki’s numbers. I will test all these things myself during the BWE.

Dagger has 2.8 coefficients per chain over 2.1 seconds. Gravedigger is 2.0 coefficients/chain over ~1.8 seconds. Greatsword does 10% more damage on average than dagger, so we’ll factor that as a 2.2 coefficient to keep the comparison on actual damage output accurate.

2.8/2.1=1.333 coefficients/second. 2.2/1.8=1.222 coefficients/second.

Against one or two targets, you’re better off dagger autoing than gravedigger spam. You just do more damage.

The coeff is actually 1.9 for grave digger and you can’t just say GS goes 10% more damage. Because the number was reverse engineered the coeffs we have already factor in gs’s higher weapon damage anyways.

The only time that works is when you are using them to preform the same skill I.e. using shroud skills. Shroud skills used with a GS will do more damage than shroud skills used with a dagger+offhand.

I really think the coef is 2.0 and you still need to multiply it by weapon strength so it is 10% more. The reverse engineering takes weapon strength into account, so the weapon strength is not already factored in, it has been factored out!

Sigmoid.7082:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

WEXXES.2378:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

Just to be clear, according to the other thread where they said they had the coefficients, Gravedigger has a 2.0 coefficient.

The dagger chain is a total of 3.0 coefficient over the whole chain and supposedly it takes only 2.1 seconds to do the whole chain.

Something to keep in mind is the cast times in game are always wrong and the wiki is often wrong. I’ve tested weapons before and they didn’t match the wiki’s numbers. I will test all these things myself during the BWE.

Dagger has 2.8 coefficients per chain over 2.1 seconds. Gravedigger is 2.0 coefficients/chain over ~1.8 seconds. Greatsword does 10% more damage on average than dagger, so we’ll factor that as a 2.2 coefficient to keep the comparison on actual damage output accurate.

2.8/2.1=1.333 coefficients/second. 2.2/1.8=1.222 coefficients/second.

Against one or two targets, you’re better off dagger autoing than gravedigger spam. You just do more damage.

The coeff is actually 1.9 for grave digger and you can’t just say GS goes 10% more damage. Because the number was reverse engineered the coeffs we have already factor in gs’s higher weapon damage anyways.

The only time that works is when you are using them to preform the same skill I.e. using shroud skills. Shroud skills used with a GS will do more damage than shroud skills used with a dagger+offhand.

No, the tooltip value is (Power* Coefficient * average weapon damage)/2600. To do a proper comparison, you cancel out the division and the Power, leaving you with coefficient* average weapon damage. Average damage for an Ascended Dagger is 1000. Average damage for an Ascended Greatsword is 1100. So, 10% more.

Because this gets multiplied in, the same coefficient means different amounts of damage on each weapon. In order to adjust for that difference for a proper comparison, you need to account for relative weapon damage, since the same coefficient goes further on Greatsword than Dagger.

Silverkey.2078:

Sigmoid.7082:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Khristophoros.7194:

WEXXES.2378:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Because when a target is below 50% health, Gravedigger has no cooldown. And it is still lower DPS than dagger auto.

Dagger auto chain takes almost 2 seconds (including the after delay to start another attack) of your DPS time. In this time, you can do a base amount of almost 940.

Gravedigger takes almost the same amount of time and deals 1,520 (Probably more like 1,200ish base) and has no CD hitting targets lower than 50% HP and hits 1 more target than dagger does.

I’m almost positive gravedigger will have better power scaling.

Just to be clear, according to the other thread where they said they had the coefficients, Gravedigger has a 2.0 coefficient.

The dagger chain is a total of 3.0 coefficient over the whole chain and supposedly it takes only 2.1 seconds to do the whole chain.

Something to keep in mind is the cast times in game are always wrong and the wiki is often wrong. I’ve tested weapons before and they didn’t match the wiki’s numbers. I will test all these things myself during the BWE.

Dagger has 2.8 coefficients per chain over 2.1 seconds. Gravedigger is 2.0 coefficients/chain over ~1.8 seconds. Greatsword does 10% more damage on average than dagger, so we’ll factor that as a 2.2 coefficient to keep the comparison on actual damage output accurate.

2.8/2.1=1.333 coefficients/second. 2.2/1.8=1.222 coefficients/second.

Against one or two targets, you’re better off dagger autoing than gravedigger spam. You just do more damage.

The coeff is actually 1.9 for grave digger and you can’t just say GS goes 10% more damage. Because the number was reverse engineered the coeffs we have already factor in gs’s higher weapon damage anyways.

The only time that works is when you are using them to preform the same skill I.e. using shroud skills. Shroud skills used with a GS will do more damage than shroud skills used with a dagger+offhand.

I really think the coef is 2.0 and you still need to multiply it by weapon strength so it is 10% more. The reverse engineering takes weapon strength into account, so the weapon strength is not already factored in, it has been factored out!

Tooltip damage = power*coefficient*average weapon damage/2600
Average GS weapon damage for exotics , what PvP uses, is 995+1100/2=1047.5
Coefficient = tooltip damage * 2600/ ( power*average weapon strength. )
Grave diggers tooltip is 1520 and they showed BiP do we know he has 1951 power in the example.

So coeff = 1520*2600/ ( 1951*1047.5) =1.93 hence why I rounded down to 1.9.

I will say again the only time you can just say a weapon does X% more damage due t weapon damage is when you are using two different weapons to do the same skill as in shrouded abilities. Or when the coeff is already known. The GS’s increase in power is already used in the calculation to find out its coeffs.

I calculated 2.0 and the whole series I calculated is
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Reaper-Auto-Wiki-Incorrect/page/2#post5304397

The coefficients are always more or less “round” damages, so the ones I calculated make more sense.

This being said, as you mentioned damage is
power*coefficient*average weapon damage/enemy armor

so to compare 2 skills on 2 different weapons, you can leave out power and armor as they are the same. So you should compare coefficient*average weapon strength

So when comparing the damage coefficients of dagger AA with GS AA and gravedigger, you should count in the 10% more damage of the GS.

i’ve made a necro build (all about extendign chill duration. using power, vit, and toughness) and despite the lack of crit and condition dmg. its surprisingly godlike.

all power, toughness, and vitality.
add to that the many life steals and pulse hp recovers that reaper vampirics give. and the reaper’s GS will give. and i think this will be a new meta

the lack of crit/condition dmg is made up for in the chill duration, and bonus dmg from vampirics.

while the toughness and vit (plus shroud) makes glass cannons fail to burst me. and then melt before my steady hits (dagger mainhand kekekekke)

overall. yeah people are underestimating reaper

Fair enough but that still doesn’t stop grave digger from correctly having a damage coeff of 1.93. Not all coeffs are round numbers.

But you have to acknowledge that the numbers I got are ALL round and their ratios are all EXACTLY consistent with the tooltip. I believe that is a strong indication.
We will obviously know for sure soon enough + they may have already changed since the demo (which I really hope, for me GS AA can be less damaging that dagger AA but gravedigger should be more damaging that dagger AA).

What some people miss here is that the values were likely recorded in Heart of the Mists. Weapon damage is lower there. Did a few calculations with my guardian a few days ago and got ~1015 average weapon damage for the GS.
Silverkey’s values are close enough to my own calculations or even the same.
And another reminder that all of this will be resolved in a few days as we will see the skills in the game. Working with values that are likely outdated months already, as is the case with Nightfall, since it got changed, is not exactly recommended.

From what I can tell, most of the complaints about the reaper (and in part the necro) are fairly narrow minded. Instead of taking everything into account, they only take one or two things into account instead of, well, everything.

#1: Damage. People are only looking at the static mods, but that isn’t all of what damage is. You have to look at damage mods, crit chance mods, as well as the ability to stack might, fury,, vulnerability, and additional conditions. Taking that into account, lets see what the necro has to increase damage.

A)Reapers Might
B)Spiteful Talismen
C)Bitter Chill
D)Death’s Embrace
E)Chill of Death
F) Unholy Fervor
G) Rending Shroud
H)Siphoned Power
I) Close to Death
J) Barbed Precision
K)Furious Demise
L)Target the Weak
M)Deadly Strength
N)Mark of Evasion
O)Lesser Signet of Vampirism
P)Vampiric
Q)Vampiric Presence
R) Vampiric Rituals
S)Unyielding Blast
T)Strength of Undeath
U)Death’s Perception
V)Dhuumfire
W)Chilling Nova
X)Chilling Force
Y)Decimate Defenses
Z)Soul Eater
AA)Deathly Chill
AB)Reaper’s Onslaught
AC)Spiteful Spirit

So there’ s an alphabet + change worth of damage increasing traits. Now, I know what you’re thinking: “But you can’t pick all of those traits!”. That’s the part I’m looking forward to the most. At this point, the reaper is the class that has the most potential build diversity. Even in a single idea (I.E. a shroud based build), there are multiple ways to accomplish the same goal. This works to the reaper’s advantage, since even upon seeing one you aren’t sure what they are going to do.

#2: Gap Closing. I think everyone is really underestimating how easy it will be for the reaper to get to you. With a built in leap and multiple pulls, as well as countless ways to inflict chill, and ending with the ability to grant swiftness to themselves, the reaper isn’t going to be as easily danced around as everyone thinks.

A)Chill of Death
B)Spiteful Spirit
C) Chilling Darkness (It sucks now, I know, but it still exists)
D) Quickening Thirst
E)Banshee’s Wail
F)Speed of Shadows
G)Foot In the Grave
H)Relentless Pursuit
I)Shivers of Dread
J)Cold Shoulder
K)Chillblains
L)Reaper’s Mark (with Shivers of Dread)
M)Unholy Feast
N)Grasping Dead
O)Dark Pact
P) Spinal Shivers
Q)Locust Swarm
R)Bone Fiend + Rigor Mortis
S)Signet of Spite
T)Signet of the Locust
U)Spectral Grasp
V)Spectral Walk
W)Death’s Charge
X)Infusing Terror
Y)Reaper’s Grasp
Z)Suffer!
AA)Chilled to the Bone

Again, pick and choose depending on build. I suppose that Spectral Grasp will be the most necessary, being a 1200 range pull + LF + chill. Combine that with Reaper’s Grasp, Chilled to the Bone, Death’s Charge, and Infusing Terror, and other players might just find it nigh impossible to escape the Reaper. Just layer on chills, pulls and stuns like all the other classes do.

The best thing about the reaper is that it has arguably the highest combination of damage and effective HP in the game. Thanks to traits like Decimate Defenses and Death’s Perception, the reaper can hit 100% crit chance without a single point in precision, meaning there is very little damage difference between a full valkyrie and full berserker.

Then comes the defenses. This is all highly build dependent, but thanks to cold shoulder, incoming damage is reduced by 10% against chilled enemies. In Death Magic you gain a further reduction with Putrid Defense (10%), Corruptor’s Fervor (up to 300 toughness, 20% condi reduction), Beyond the Veil, Armored Shroud, and Unholy Sanctuary for additional health. In Curses you get automatic condi transfers and Weakening Shroud for permanent weakness. Blood Magic gets vampiric traits and other spots of automatic healing. For reference, Vampiric Presence + Vampiric +Soul Eater comes to 121 damage and 113 health gained per hit. Soul Reaping adds more life force, Last Gasp, and Vital persistence.

Unless I am missing an important detail, when it comes to an all out melee brawl 1 vs. 1, the reaper will win no matter their opponent. The only thing another class can do is try to dance around at range or in stealth. Otherwise, the reaper wins.

You missed the complaints about range, which are really complaints that Dagger, Greatsword, and Reaper shroud all do the same thing (power damage from melee).

(And the other weapons suck). So you have a less capable character than you did before.

You also missed the complaints about life force on Greatsword (the numbers look bad)

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

From what I can tell, most of the complaints about the reaper (and in part the necro) are fairly narrow minded. Instead of taking everything into account, they only take one or two things into account instead of, well, everything.

#1: Damage. People are only looking at the static mods, but that isn’t all of what damage is.

Snipped long list of proc effects, I’m Suprised he necgleted to mention minions

#2: Gap Closing. I think everyone is really underestimating how easy it will be for the reaper to get to you. With a built in leap and multiple pulls, as well as countless ways to inflict chill, and ending with the ability to grant swiftness to themselves, the reaper isn’t going to be as easily danced around as everyone thinks.

Snipped long list of cripples and chills.

1. Proc effects are no substitute for damage multipliers. Especially Damage boosts that don’t scale (lifesteal, minions) are no substitute for damage boosts that do scale (Inb4 technical argument that stuff technically does scale but does so very poorly).

2. Gap closers are Gap closers, they are not pulls, cripples, chills or swiftness. The best Gap closers are z axis teleports, but leaps, while not in the same league, lap swiftness for effect.

If it takes you 8-10 seconds to get from midpoint to stillness, but takes a thief only 2 seconds (or a Mesmer/elementalist only 3), then you are going to lose the very important cap every time.

Chills and cripple are 100% ineffective at stopping teleports or leaps, and they are largely ineffective at keeping a target within range of an AoE (enemy can always use the speed from dodge to get out for example). Swifness isn’t much better.

The warrior is both tanky and super fast because it needs to be this to compete. The reaper is no such thing.

Oh, and pulls fail in this game 30% or more of the time, they don’t work.

As for the final point, toughness is no substitute for active defense. The “toughness advantage” merely let’s you absorb the hits you will take trying to catch up.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Unless I am missing an important detail, when it comes to an all out melee brawl 1 vs. 1, the reaper will win no matter their opponent. The only thing another class can do is try to dance around at range or in stealth. Otherwise, the reaper wins.

If the reaper is correctly designed, this statement will be true.

However, the current balance of the game is strongly anti melee and it will not be enough, Plus, the statement isn’t true at all given what we’ve been previewed.

the big question for reaper will be how much you will have to spec into life force gain and how many other traits you will have to sacrifice in order to get enough life force.

while greatsword does not have many ways to get life force it is by nature a more defensive weapon than for example dagger imo.

another thing is what role the reaper is supposed to fill (or rather what he will), a duelling build or more of a teamfighter?

this weekend will be a lot of work i guess.. i have a couple of builds in my mind, some traits that i have to test in game to find out what benefits me more.. reaper won’t be the only one i am going to test. reaper, revenant and tempest will all get some long pvp reviews from me..

Jekkt.6045:

the big question for reaper will be how much you will have to spec into life force gain and how many other traits you will have to sacrifice in order to get enough life force.

while greatsword does not have many ways to get life force it is by nature a more defensive weapon than for example dagger imo.

another thing is what role the reaper is supposed to fill (or rather what he will), a duelling build or more of a teamfighter?

this weekend will be a lot of work i guess.. i have a couple of builds in my mind, some traits that i have to test in game to find out what benefits me more.. reaper won’t be the only one i am going to test. reaper, revenant and tempest will all get some long pvp reviews from me..

The GS and RS skills seem generally geared towards teamfights, as are the shouts. I honestly think it’d be better to drop GS for dagger/WH with reaper just because dagger will be way better 1v1 and give more life force and RS should give you enough cleave. Add a staff with soul marks and you’ll be good to go.

Last I checked, LF generation on any weapon that isn’t the dagger is bad. I’m also assuming that this is in PVP circumstances, since in PVE the target rich environment means maximum scaling on Death Spiral, Reaper’s Grasp, and “Your Soul is Mine!”.

But really, that is a question that will have to wait until the beta. The reaper already has a couple of LF traits that might be quite strong. Blighter’s Boon is an often overlooked trait that, when combined with Siphoned Power and Chilling Force, essentially means 2% per second per target hit. With additional team support, this can becomes quite substantial, especially when doing something such as standing in a guardian’s symbols. A lot of reapers will also be running spectral skills and the soul reaping line, which can add even more LF depending on how much is needed.

Finally there is this strange notion that everyone will be running dagger/offhand + Greatsword. I don’t see why someone would, given that Greatsword and Shroud Knight already fulfill the role of melee damage. It is redundant and stupid. A not-so-stupid build would run either Staff, or Scepter/Axe + offhand. Now the staff exists mostly for utility, traps, and field control, but soul marks will add more lifeforce generation if it is needed. I haven’t played around with the idea of celestial reaper, but the scepter could work as a ranged offensive weapon there. The Axe is more of a last resort for builds that want to use focus/warhorn, but want to go full power instead of celestial. Unholy Feast is a useful skill, though, and the large health pool makes retaliation quite deadly. Also the cripple + LF generation helps. Little known fact, the AA from axe at 600 range actually does more damage than Life Blast within the same range, traits not included.

#1: They aren’t meant to be a substitute. The problem is, everyone ignores them completely, even though they meaningfully contribute damage and provide all sorts of additional utilities.
#2: So basically you’re defining gap closers to be of such a narrow definition that it is meaningless for the case you are applying it to. When I say “gap closers” I mean skills that help you get to your target, whether you slow them down, speed yourself up, leap or pull, or prevents you from being stopped.
#3: Chill is actually quite good at stopping leaps and teleports. You may have forgotten this, but chill causes skill recharges to triple in length. This means that the timing between leaps is 3 times longer than normal.

Take that into account when factoring in how relentless the reaper will be. You’ll be pulled + chilled, stunned, followed by a poisonous leap, feared + chilled, fear + chilled again, chill + stunned again, poisoned + pulled again, followed again by a poisonous leap, and in all this time you’ve been blowing your cooldowns just to get away from an enemy with up to 70% stability uptime who will win in a melee. Then, to your horror, you realize that all of your skills are on cooldown, your heals are nerfed by poison, and you are a very slowly walking punching bag who’s only defense is to auto attack. This combination was so strong that Anet saw to nerf several things about the reaper before even opening it to the public.

Also, in numbers, toughness can be equivalent to active defense. The only difference between avoiding 33% of damage and taking only 66% damage is ancillary effects. Thankfully, the necro is already good at condi transfer and conversion.

nearlight.3064:

Jekkt.6045:

the big question for reaper will be how much you will have to spec into life force gain and how many other traits you will have to sacrifice in order to get enough life force.

while greatsword does not have many ways to get life force it is by nature a more defensive weapon than for example dagger imo.

another thing is what role the reaper is supposed to fill (or rather what he will), a duelling build or more of a teamfighter?

this weekend will be a lot of work i guess.. i have a couple of builds in my mind, some traits that i have to test in game to find out what benefits me more.. reaper won’t be the only one i am going to test. reaper, revenant and tempest will all get some long pvp reviews from me..

The GS and RS skills seem generally geared towards teamfights, as are the shouts. I honestly think it’d be better to drop GS for dagger/WH with reaper just because dagger will be way better 1v1 and give more life force and RS should give you enough cleave. Add a staff with soul marks and you’ll be good to go.

it depends how good greatsword will actually be. what will decide for me if gs will be a deal or not is if it can handle the current threats better.

against mesmers? will most likely not make any difference because both are melee and both could cleave then clones down.

against thieves? i feel like gs could be better because if its similar nature to the guadian’s gs with aoe’s and the blind field, pull. on the other hand the auto attack is way too slow to get through the blind field, then again skill 3 seems quite good for that.

another thing is gravedigger, as far as i understood this skill has 0 cooldown as long as you hit a target with less than 50% or in downed state.. this is basically a permanent backstab skill under the perfect circumstances.

another thing is if gs + blighter’s boon + lf when you hit a chilled enemy + heal shout will be enough life force regen or if you have to take other skills or even dagger to make it recharge enough. that’s all stuff i’m gonna test in the beta..

what i currently plan on playing is gs + staff celestial spite soul reaper with dhuumfire, hoelbrak blood strength as i believe that this will be the best allrounder build in terms of damage and survivability.

things i’m not sure about yet are

- close to death vs signets of suffering (more damage vs life force from might due to blighter’s boon)

- decimate defenses (crit chance for vul) vs chilling force (might and life force when hitting a chilled enemy) is the selfsustain high enough without chilling force? is the damage high enough without the crit chance of decimate defenses? should be around 30% with celes

- speed of shadows vs soul marks, movement speed vs life force regen, is chill enough or is the movement speed needed? is the life force regen already high enough or is soul marks needed?

as for the utilities i might run the heal shout, spectral armor, plague signet, you are all weaklings (4 might 6s weakness shout) and plague form if i decide not to run the signet trait. if i decide to run it it will be the healing signet, plague signet, locust and spectral armor with plague form.

and one thing that i’m really looking forward to is: boon stacking pre matchstart will give you life force

@ Jekkt yeah I’ll probably be testing cele reaper and condi reaper the most. Condi I have mostly figured out (just take all the cheesey traits and spam fear and chill) but for cele I honestly don’t know what traitline from the current build I’d drop.

Spite seems needed to power blighter’s boon, while the weakness, transfer, and AoE PoC from curses seems like its too good to pass up. Its just that keeping those lines means you wouldn’t be able to take SR, meaning no vital persistance or soul marks. Also I think dhuumfire may finally be competitve with death perception on a cele reaper build, but we’d have to see. But if blighter’s boon lets us drop soul marks and vital persistence, I think that spread could work.

tbh i feel like if you wanna focus on reaper shroud you kinda have to run soul reaping to sustain it enough and the might from spite is just insane for dhuumfire, you will basically be putting out constant 3-4 burn stacks that tick for 300 each while your auto attack hits around 2k.

i agree that the weakness in curses is strong, that’s the reason why i’m thinking about running the weakness shout. it’s 6s weakness on 25s cd, not as good but still something and it’s aoe with 4 stacks of might per target hit, some more fuel for blighter’s boon.

and one thing that i’m really looking forward to is: boon stacking pre matchstart will give you life force

That’s interesting. Where did you hear this? If it’s true that would be phenomenal!

Viking Jorun.5413:

and one thing that i’m really looking forward to is: boon stacking pre matchstart will give you life force

That’s interesting. Where did you hear this? If it’s true that would be phenomenal!

The gm reaper trait blighter’s boon gives lf for every boon applied to you.

Blighter’s Boon gives you life force (or HP while in DS) whenever a boon is applied to you, whether by you or from any other source. So at the start of the game when everyone is spamming buffs you’ll get a fair bit of LF to start off with.

Anyone wathced the Necro PvP from Gamescon? That thing sucked balls! Although must be noted that the dev playing didn’t know what he was supposed to be doing.

Went through all the stream part of necro to see what changed and documented it and then forum crashed :/

The are some nerfs (who would have thought!) like Gravedigger only recharging 80% and not 100% if hit below 50%

Nightfall has gone through lot of change same for “YAAW!”

Almost all of GS skills got their CD lengthened!

samulihei.1952:

Anyone wathced the Necro PvP from Gamescon? That thing sucked balls! Although must be noted that the dev playing didn’t know what he was supposed to be doing. Also from the stream:

Deathly Chill
Damage reduced
Below 50% 294 -> 145
Above 50% 197 -> 97

Probably because he had no condition damage gear on (was wearing marauder).
Also the build he picked had 0 synergy. It was like seeing someone trait full minions and using only corruptions, while wearing d/x with settler amulett. Just kidding, but it was bad nonetheless.

More interesting were reaper changes. Elite shout was the same as in wvw stress test.
“You are all weaklings” is now on 30 sec cd (stunbreaker change i guess). Suffer is on 30 sec and “Nothing …” on 35.

The get might and life force on hit trait got a 1 sec icd per target. Blighters boon seemed to stay the same.

Gravedigger cd was reduced/changed to 5sec/1sec(when hitting target below 50%). Nightfall has 25 sec cd and pulses blind/cripple, the pull has now 30sec cd.

Reapershroud got some changes too: the leap now blinds and the spin to win move now poisons on every hit. So 11 (short) poison stacks on the whole move. Skill 3 stayed the same and applied 1 stack stab with 3 sec duration for 8 seconds.

Yeah realised that and edited the post also

Bhawb.7408:

Assuming they properly balance the rest of the specialization, Reaper’s only big weakness will be that you have to play Necromancer to use it, and base Necromancer is still a really awful setup.

Jordo.5913:

Reaper looked cool as well, but it involves being on a necro.

Good news people we can moan again, reaper got nerfed before it began.