Guild Wars 2

I was excited that we can use F1-5 without going into other modes, that we have all that torment, burning till i saw the torment applies burning but with kittening ICD of 3 SECONDS! like wtf? it’s suppose to be like deathly chill without icd and it was suppose to be our main damage dealer and anet had to ruin it. kitten necros in base, in HoT, and now at PoF. balancing everyone except necros and reves. thank you anet for that kittenty discrimination we get to face. we still have no real balance. I don’t care if necro is good in pvp and wvw. I mainly play PvE and I want to play my main class and I can’t cuz it’s too weak for raids and fracs. So wtf? I understand the nerf for deathly chill since it relies on ice bolts anyway. but are ya thinking of empowering the reaper for power spec? cuz I still don’t see it and it’s really low dps compared to other power builds.

I suggest to make zis icd in pvp to balance it but not in PvE. it’ll be just another cluster kitten in PvE.

We already have Dhuumfire that spam burn with F1 skills, maybe with every hit of shades, granting us to spam up to 3 burn every time we summon the third shade and eventually when we active any other Fx skill because they react hitting the enemy with torment and cripple (if they don’t do strange things as they always do, that can be possible).
If you add another burn with every torment we’ll be able to spam up to more than 6 stacks of burn every time we active a Fx skill and that’s a little too much (expecially with Desert Shroud because we can active it and then continue to active the F1, increasing teh torment/burn spam)
If the mechanic is the same as the mesmer and we can spam shades spamming the F1 skill, we’ll be able to inflict up to 3 burn every 1/2 sec (depending on cast and aftercast) only with Dhuumfire, if you add another Burn for every hit that willl be seriously too much. 3 F1 skills with all the shades in game and any kind of enemy will die without mercy with 18 stacks of burn spammed in 1.5 seconds. A little too much, don’t you think?

Deathly chill is a strong trait, expecially in PvE, but spam Bleed and Bleed inflict lesser damage then Burn and in sPvP is well balanced inflicting only 1 bleed/chill.
3 stacks of bleed inflict just a little lesser damage than a stack of burn, but that’s another PvE/WvW balance problem that we’re not here to discuss.

That’s the only possible (and wise) reason for this ICD.
Also the main reason to take this trait is increase the damage of Torment, that is already a really goo thing, while the Burn is only a complement to make it even stronger.

Yeah, the ICD is too high for its effect. Either the burn effect needs to be more stacks or a longer duration, or a ICD of 1 second.

Still, the damage potential shouldn’t be locked behind a single trait as it is with reaper currently. Thats bad design, the base damage should be good, if you gear for it, and awesome if you trait and optimize for it.

The ICD is for scaling and balance. In general, the greater the variance that something can have from its low point to its high point, the harder it is to balance. This is because balance is typically based around average performance, so if the peaks are too low and too high, then that means when the item in question is balanced to be bad on average, it’s really bad for the bottom 50% of the time, but when it’s balanced to be good on average, it’s really good for the upper 50% of use cases.

The ICD here means that the greatest level of variance in the burn performance comes from Expertise: The ability to shift how long the burns last for drastically modifies their floor and their ceiling. I think the ICD is necessary because it minimizes how far-reaching the variance in performance of the burns will be, and in fact depending on total access to Torment that the class has, I think Demonic Lore in general might honestly be too strong.

You over stetch with your dhuumfire theory The trait will probably be reworked.

Zero Solstice.9754:

The ICD is for scaling and balance. In general, the greater the variance that something can have from its low point to its high point, the harder it is to balance. This is because balance is typically based around average performance, so if the peaks are too low and too high, then that means when the item in question is balanced to be bad on average, it’s really bad for the bottom 50% of the time, but when it’s balanced to be good on average, it’s really good for the upper 50% of use cases.

The ICD here means that the greatest level of variance in the burn performance comes from Expertise: The ability to shift how long the burns last for drastically modifies their floor and their ceiling. I think the ICD is necessary because it minimizes how far-reaching the variance in performance of the burns will be, and in fact depending on total access to Torment that the class has, I think Demonic Lore in general might honestly be too strong.

You are generally right with your explanation. However in GW2 its all about the base values, really. Gear is the same for all classes, so the max. amount of additional condition duration and condition power is pretty even between all classes. And with this trait, under perfect circumstances, you can have 1 burn stack up permanent. Which is not strong at all, especially when you compare how much conditions a necromancer can cause baseline to other classes. Necro DPS is way lower in the current meta.. and this is because the skills from the condition set just dont deal as much nor as frequent conditions as for other classes. Of course, having super strong traits and weaker weapon skills isn’t optimal design, but we have yet to see any top dps with our baseline of skills.

Of course it has a ICD, if it didn’t it would cause you to apply burn at a 1:1 ratio with torment. In other words scepter 3 would be applying 7 stacks of torment, and 7 stacks of burn which would be so busted overpowered.

The burn on torment trait in it’s current form adds reasonable dps to the spec without being insane.

Honestly, since the ICD is per-target, I don’t see it as being that bad. With this trait, each Torment stack on a moving target is equivalent damage to 3 bleeds, so even without the burning, it’s not bad. The additional burning is a good bonus, although I would like to see it upped to 2 stacks.

Crinn.7864:

Of course it has a ICD, if it didn’t it would cause you to apply burn at a 1:1 ratio with torment. In other words scepter 3 would be applying 7 stacks of torment, and 7 stacks of burn which would be so busted overpowered.

The burn on torment trait in it’s current form adds reasonable dps to the spec without being insane.

I thought it already does that since scepter 3 immediately hits for 7 stacks of torment on cast? Or does it work like no matter how many stacks of torment you apply, only 1 stack of burn applies?

Brujeria.7536:

Zero Solstice.9754:

The ICD is for scaling and balance. In general, the greater the variance that something can have from its low point to its high point, the harder it is to balance. This is because balance is typically based around average performance, so if the peaks are too low and too high, then that means when the item in question is balanced to be bad on average, it’s really bad for the bottom 50% of the time, but when it’s balanced to be good on average, it’s really good for the upper 50% of use cases.

The ICD here means that the greatest level of variance in the burn performance comes from Expertise: The ability to shift how long the burns last for drastically modifies their floor and their ceiling. I think the ICD is necessary because it minimizes how far-reaching the variance in performance of the burns will be, and in fact depending on total access to Torment that the class has, I think Demonic Lore in general might honestly be too strong.

You are generally right with your explanation. However in GW2 its all about the base values, really. Gear is the same for all classes, so the max. amount of additional condition duration and condition power is pretty even between all classes. And with this trait, under perfect circumstances, you can have 1 burn stack up permanent. Which is not strong at all, especially when you compare how much conditions a necromancer can cause baseline to other classes. Necro DPS is way lower in the current meta.. and this is because the skills from the condition set just dont deal as much nor as frequent conditions as for other classes. Of course, having super strong traits and weaker weapon skills isn’t optimal design, but we have yet to see any top dps with our baseline of skills.

Well, you’re not actually correct in stating that “Gear is the same for all classes, so the max. amount of additional condition duration and condition power is pretty even between all classes. And with this trait, under perfect circumstances, you can have 1 burn stack up permanent.” because in the span of two statements you are already overlooking your own point. You’re correct in stating that everyone can generally achieve the same relative stats through gear, but if you have optimal Condition Damage and Condition Duration then you’re actually looking into the ballpark of 200% Burn uptime, plus however much damage goes along with the scaling of the Condition Damage alongside that extra duration. There is a major difference between having one stack of Burn for 3 seconds vs. having 2 stacks of burn for 6 seconds. By not having an ICD, you increase the variance even more by making it range anywhere from one stack of Burn for 3 seconds to 15 stacks of Burn for 6 seconds; nearly impossible to balance.

Jinn Galen.2468:

Crinn.7864:

Of course it has a ICD, if it didn’t it would cause you to apply burn at a 1:1 ratio with torment. In other words scepter 3 would be applying 7 stacks of torment, and 7 stacks of burn which would be so busted overpowered.

The burn on torment trait in it’s current form adds reasonable dps to the spec without being insane.

I thought it already does that since scepter 3 immediately hits for 7 stacks of torment on cast? Or does it work like no matter how many stacks of torment you apply, only 1 stack of burn applies?

Based on the English of the trait, plus using a bit of common sense, it will apply one stack of Burn no matter the size of the application of Torment.

Well that’s sad. I was hoping I could spam burns like crazy in PvE (why not? It’s PvE). They could just balance it in WvW and sPvP.

Jinn Galen.2468:

Well that’s sad. I was hoping I could spam burns like crazy in PvE (why not? It’s PvE). They could just balance it in WvW and sPvP.

Always possible, we’ll just have to wait and see.

You do realize that Burning is the highest damage condition in the game right? Bleeding, the next strongest, deals just slightly more than 1/3 the damage per tick of burning. So a 3sec ICD on an effect that applies burning makes perfect sense when compared to a similar effect that has no ICD and applies Bleeding.

Panda.1967:

You do realize that Burning is the highest damage condition in the game right? Bleeding, the next strongest, deals just slightly more than 1/3 the damage per tick of burning. So a 3sec ICD on an effect that applies burning makes perfect sense when compared to a similar effect that has no ICD and applies Bleeding.

Not to mention, this trait will also increase torment by 33%.

I did some math and with this trait, at base condition damage, on a stationary target, torment will do ~21 damage persecond, just shy of bleed’s base damage. Remember, torment’s damage DOUBLES when the target is moving.

hahahah did you really expect some love for necros? If so, you don’t know Arena Net at all.

Panda.1967:

You do realize that Burning is the highest damage condition in the game right? Bleeding, the next strongest, deals just slightly more than 1/3 the damage per tick of burning. So a 3sec ICD on an effect that applies burning makes perfect sense when compared to a similar effect that has no ICD and applies Bleeding.

Not accurate.. Sorry, I need to correct this. Listed in Order for strongest passive Damage, no moving.

1. Burning
2. Poison
3. Bleeding
4. Confusion
5. Torment

Torment goes up to second while moving and Confusion if skill sequencing is high can out pace even burning, but that’s situational. Poison is the second strongest when comparing them on a stationary target without moving, but not much stronger. Poison is also a bit more rare than Bleeding or Torment which is why you don’t see as high of numbers from it. But it is the second strongest, though not by a lot.

Lily.1935:

Panda.1967:

You do realize that Burning is the highest damage condition in the game right? Bleeding, the next strongest, deals just slightly more than 1/3 the damage per tick of burning. So a 3sec ICD on an effect that applies burning makes perfect sense when compared to a similar effect that has no ICD and applies Bleeding.

Not accurate.. Sorry, I need to correct this. Listed in Order for strongest passive Damage, no moving.

1. Burning
2. Poison
3. Bleeding
4. Confusion
5. Torment

Torment goes up to second while moving and Confusion if skill sequencing is high can out pace even burning, but that’s situational. Poison is the second strongest when comparing them on a stationary target without moving, but not much stronger. Poison is also a bit more rare than Bleeding or Torment which is why you don’t see as high of numbers from it. But it is the second strongest, though not by a lot.

You’re right… it is Burn > Poison > Bleed… It was like 4 in the morning when I posted earlier… but even still Burn damage is almost 3x as much as Bleed damage per second, so the 3sec ICD is 100% warranted and expected given that Deathly Chill applies Bleed in the same fashion with no ICD.