Necro has the least damage evasion of all classes. I purpose the following changes:
Spiritual Traversal
A necromancer can temporarily enter the spirit realm to evade an attack. When the necromancer dodges while out of endurance, the dodge takes from life force instead. Each dodge would cost 10% life force. When endurance is out and life force is below 10%, the dodge takes from the necromancer’s health directly. Each dodge costs 10% health.
This gives the player the option to either use Life Force to tank (Death Shroud), or use Life Force to dodge. This will give necromancers that missing evasion “gadget” to avoid damage.
This will make necro a true attrition class. In the hand of an elite player he can dodge out of devastating attacks. However a noob player would dodge all the time and too often (e.g. attacks that would have dealt less than 10% LF or health, roughly 2k damage) and ends up killing himself/herself faster. The key to the longest survival is choosing which enemy skill to dodge from and which enemy skill to just take the hit.
At the same time necro would remain non-mobile. So a necro still must stand and fight, true to its class description.
Thoughts?
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Or we could just implement a way for necros to acquire vigor via existing skills/traits.
Uh. DS gives you double health pretty much.
Using life force to fuel endurance sounds cool, but I worry it might be too different for how endurance currently works to be appropriate. If a Necromancer fills up a bar of life force before a fight, they basically just get X dodges in a row rather than 2. There aren’t that many classes that can even build for 4 consecutive dodges, to my knowledge: many can build for high up-time on vigor or endurance regeneration boosting traits, but they don’t give an increase in the actual size of the endurance bar. (The thief is the only example I can think of off-hand: the trait that returns some endurance per dodge effectively extends the bar.)
The concern is, being able to walk into a fight and then dodge 5 times in a row (without even a using vigor boon your foe can try and remove) sort of changes dodge from a periodic ‘at-the-right-time’ defense to a long term ‘wear-them-down’ defense.
As well, ArenaNet’s conspicuous avoidance of life-sacrifice moves (The closest are Blood is Power and Corrupt boon, which are more easily handled than a chunk of direct damage) indicates a trend they plan on not breaking. So I don’t think sacrificing HP for a dodge roll will make it in.
I did not read your post but your title sais give us 12 doges when we have full endurance and lf. Don’t you think that is too much?
Actually, it gives us 12 dodges, before it dips into our HP bar. Theoretically speaking, you could do 22 dodges, in a row.
Let the devs fix what we already have before they add more stuff. Once every play-affecting bug is fixed, THEN they can truly evaluate necros for where we are. After that, I would much prefer then change some of our less used traits to more competitive options, and give minor buffs/changes to things that need it (like spectral wall). Necro mechanics are fine as is, we only need fixes/minor buffs/changes to be perfectly balanced.
every patch we come out with more bugd
Actually, it gives us 12 dodges, before it dips into our HP bar. Theoretically speaking, you could do 22 dodges, in a row.
Let the devs fix what we already have before they add more stuff. Once every play-affecting bug is fixed, THEN they can truly evaluate necros for where we are. After that, I would much prefer then change some of our less used traits to more competitive options, and give minor buffs/changes to things that need it (like spectral wall). Necro mechanics are fine as is, we only need fixes/minor buffs/changes to be perfectly balanced.
Yes on theory the necro can dodge 22 times in a row. But if the necro spam dodge this way he/she would be dead in 22 seconds. Not to mention the necro would have dealt zero damage, because he/she cannot attack while dodging.
10% hp is roughly 2k damage. That’s quite a lot of damage. And this number is not set in stone and can be adjusted for balance.
The key to success is chose when to dodge, when to tank hits, and when to attack.
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Actually, I’ve already made a build that would completely break this mechanic. With just 20 traits invested, 10 in Death magic, 10 in blood magic, and using Shaman’s amulet, I can heal 1k HP on every dodge, and deal about 1.5k damage.
Meaning, with each dodge, I can actually stack bleeds and regen on myself, healing and dealing about half the damage I’m causing to myself, with only 20 points invested.
The amount of HP it costed to do this dodge roll would have to be so high that it just wouldn’t be worth it, because of the Mark of Blood on dodge roll.
Even assuming we removed that trait, I think it focuses too much on using LF outside of DS. I can pretty easily get another X% of life force, its really not that difficult to get it, and then I could dodge far too often. Its making a class that isn’t balanced for mobility, too mobile.
Actually, I’ve already made a build that would completely break this mechanic. With just 20 traits invested, 10 in Death magic, 10 in blood magic, and using Shaman’s amulet, I can heal 1k HP on every dodge, and deal about 1.5k damage.
Meaning, with each dodge, I can actually stack bleeds and regen on myself, healing and dealing about half the damage I’m causing to myself, with only 20 points invested.
The amount of HP it costed to do this dodge roll would have to be so high that it just wouldn’t be worth it, because of the Mark of Blood on dodge roll.
Even assuming we removed that trait, I think it focuses too much on using LF outside of DS. I can pretty easily get another X% of life force, its really not that difficult to get it, and then I could dodge far too often. Its making a class that isn’t balanced for mobility, too mobile.
Mark of Evasion trait has a 10 second cool down, so Mark of Blood cannot be maintained that way. You can maintain the regeneration but it won’t be close to 1k a second.
And the numbers can be adjusted for balance. It doesn’t have to be so high that it won’t even be worth it. 10% is already around 2k hp per dodge. If it gets increased to let’s say 20%, that would be 4k hp per dodge.
Dodging improves evasion and damage avoidance. It doesn’t increase speed and mobility. Necro need a way to avoid incoming damage. All other classes have things like Ride the Lightning, stealth, blocks, immunity, etc. Necro got none of those. DS and LF generation aren’t nearly as good as those skills.
For example look at Signet of Undeath. It is famous for resurrecting allies. Its LF generation passive is mostly forgotten. Why? Well it generates 1% LF every 3 seconds while in combat. That is only around 200 hp every 3 seconds, even if you count LF as life. How is this even remotely comparable to RTL, stealth, blocks, immunity, etc? One stealth, one RTL or one immunity would easily help you avoid 10k damage in a zerg fight, which equals 150 seconds of Signet of Undeath regen in combat. One single block would easily help you avoid 2k damage, which equals 30 seconds of Signet of Undeath regen in combat. Seriously for necro things just doesn’t add up.
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Imagine running from even a small zerg in WvW, you’re running dodging, and trying with all you have to make it out alive.
Whoops, you didn’t notice that you were out of stamina when you went to dodge, and because you’ve been taking damage from the enemy, you have just killed yourself.
No, not a good idea. Just give us a trait that adds vigor when you use BiP or something.
Dodging 22 times in a row isn’t going to increase our ability to escape zergs. It is nothing like being able to RTL away from people.
If you want to say that DS 2 should go back to a ground targetted blink, then I’d agree, because we could use a little mobility in that aspect, but escaping from a zerg has nothing to do with dodge rolling.
Learn to use your class properly. Necros don’t have escapes, so stop allowing yourself to be in situations that you need hard-escapes to get out of. Let some other noob distract them, let the ele’s and thieves stay in too long since they can afford to, and start running when you notice the flow is swinging against you.
Imagine running from even a small zerg in WvW, you’re running dodging, and trying with all you have to make it out alive.
Whoops, you didn’t notice that you were out of stamina when you went to dodge, and because you’ve been taking damage from the enemy, you have just killed yourself.
No, not a good idea. Just give us a trait that adds vigor when you use BiP or something.
If that’s how you died, that mean the new change did its job. Why? Because you can improve! You can become a better player. You can learn to watch your stamina better next time. You can learn to avoid only high damage enemy attacks, while tanking smaller damage ones.
The current system of just throwing necros 40k hp and give them no method of damage avoidance. Defence wise you cannot learn from this. You cannot improve from this. You just fight until you die, that’s it.
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Dodging 22 times in a row isn’t going to increase our ability to escape zergs. It is nothing like being able to RTL away from people.
If you want to say that DS 2 should go back to a ground targetted blink, then I’d agree, because we could use a little mobility in that aspect, but escaping from a zerg has nothing to do with dodge rolling.
Learn to use your class properly. Necros don’t have escapes, so stop allowing yourself to be in situations that you need hard-escapes to get out of. Let some other noob distract them, let the ele’s and thieves stay in too long since they can afford to, and start running when you notice the flow is swinging against you.
If Anet want the necro to be a battleship class (can’t move at all, but have big guns), then they better give necro those big guns. Improve the necro’s damage output so we are a powerful and unyielding force on the battlefield until we are defeated. All out attack Yamato style.
If Anet want the necro to be an attrition class (survive so long that the enemy eventually burns out and dies), then they better give necro some form of damage avoidance. We have to survive long enough against blast classes to burn out their cooldowns and hp.
Right now the necromancer is this battleship with tiny guns and no way to avoid damage. This is the worst place to be in.
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We don’t have low damage, I don’t know why everyone insists on this. Its sustained: it isn’t burst, it is over longer periods of time. We are perfectly tuned to being an attrition class.
The thing is though DS is damage avoidance.
Some vigour would be nice, but on the flip side a chill does the same job.
A Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew can keep the dodges flowing while stacking a bit of might.
This mechanic sounds fun but it would be a tad god mode.
The thing is though DS is damage avoidance.
Some vigour would be nice, but on the flip side a chill does the same job.
A Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew can keep the dodges flowing while stacking a bit of might.
This mechanic sounds fun but it would be a tad god mode.
DS is not damage avoidance. It is an extra hp bar that drains itself. Damage avoidance are skills and abilities that you can learn to use better and improve upon. You cannot learn to use your hp better. Hp is not a skill or ability that you can use. That’s the problem.
Are we really going to compare Vigor and Chill with the likes of RTL, stealth and immunity in terms of survivability? The latter can potential save you from a 10+ men zerg. The former won’t.
Consumables is not a part of class balance discussions. Because all other classes can eat the same thing.
It is not god mode because each dodge will cost the necro around 2k hp.
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Dodging is nothing even close to RTL. You go and talk about how vigor and chill can’t save you from 10 man zergs. Guess what? Dodge rolling won’t either, it will just let you dodge a few abilities until they lock you down.
We have the ability to do the same thing that dodging rolling would accomplish: not taking damage to our actual life bar. Dodging does not fix what you want.
We don’t have low damage, I don’t know why everyone insists on this. Its sustained: it isn’t burst, it is over longer periods of time. We are perfectly tuned to being an attrition class.
Should a big and slow battleship carry small guns to wear down the enemy, or big guns to kill the enemy quick? Imagine that the Yamato carries a bunch of small guns instead of its 45 cal main gun battery. Will anyone fear it?
The only reason why anyone would build a big and slow battleship is to put huge guns on it, so it will scare the **** out of everyone so they run for their lives. Who want a 45 cal shell in their hull? When your battleship moves this slow, your guns better kill the enemy in just a few hits when you DO get near them.
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Your metaphor doesn’t work. Huge slow guns = burst damage, we don’t have burst damage. I could care less if no one is scared of me in PvP. They’ll die if they are scared or not, it makes no difference to me.
Dodging is nothing even close to RTL. You go and talk about how vigor and chill can’t save you from 10 man zergs. Guess what? Dodge rolling won’t either, it will just let you dodge a few abilities until they lock you down.
We have the ability to do the same thing that dodging rolling would accomplish: not taking damage to our actual life bar. Dodging does not fix what you want.
If you cannot lose more than 5% LF per hit while in DS, then I would agree with you. That means damage taken is actually reduced. In fact if you trait for its 5 second recharge, you can learn to use DS as a shield, lowering the damage taken by timing it right.
But that aren’t how it is working now. You take 100% the damage while in DS. So yes DS LF is just a second hp bar. You cannot learn to time you DS right.
Think about it this way. You are full health. An incoming attack will hit you for 4k damage. What’s the difference between using DS before that attack or after it? Nothing! You will take 4k damage either way. Its just the difference of taking that 4k damage on your LF or on your hp. Your overall hp didn’t change. You might argue that if you used DS3 before then that attack won’t have happen. But that’s due to DS3, not LF. So yes LF is just extra hp.
I’m not saying it isn’t extra HP, its not our actual HP bar. I can die with 100% life force bar, I cannot die by losing all my life force. There is a huge difference to taking it to my LF not my HP, with one combo with a dagger, that is 6% LF back; life gain equivalent of 1.2k HP in 2 seconds. I can’t refill my real HP bar that easily.
Please explain how this helps in your situation though. You haven’t answered how getting more dodge rolls would help escape zergs. I don’t disagree that it would help avoid damage; I’m just saying we don’t need that to. However your OWN situation does not work with your own solution. You want a way to get away from zergs, dodge rolling will not do that.
Your metaphor doesn’t work. Huge slow guns = burst damage, we don’t have burst damage. I could care less if no one is scared of me in PvP. They’ll die if they are scared or not, it makes no difference to me.
My metaphor worked. You just disagree with me that a huge and slow battleship with small tiny guns is useless. That’s fair.
I’m not saying it isn’t extra HP, its not our actual HP bar. I can die with 100% life force bar, I cannot die by losing all my life force. There is a huge difference to taking it to my LF not my HP, with one combo with a dagger, that is 6% LF back; life gain equivalent of 1.2k HP in 2 seconds. I can’t refill my real HP bar that easily.
Please explain how this helps in your situation though. You haven’t answered how getting more dodge rolls would help escape zergs. I don’t disagree that it would help avoid damage; I’m just saying we don’t need that to. However your OWN situation does not work with your own solution. You want a way to get away from zergs, dodge rolling will not do that.
Dagger is hard to use in wvw zerg vs zerg. Necro do not have the tank ability of warriors, or the stealth of thieves, so it is very hard to fight on the front line. 1.2k hp worth of LF every 2 second sounds nice. But your hp will be pounced upon very quickly, which would force you to turn on DS. That stops your LF generation (while you DS you cannot attack with your dagger). So that 1.2k hp worth of LF over 2 seconds sounds very good on paper, but it is not sustainable.
Let’s say you are being chased by 5 enemies. If you take hits from all 5 of them you can easily take over 8k damage in a second. It is better that you evade, and only losing 2k LF/hp. So in this case, the key is timing you dodge so you can evade multiple attacks in one single dodge. You want to delay your death for as long as you can, so you can either get into a tower or allies arrive to help you out.
Bump. Any more opinions on this?
I think it’s an interesting idea CHIPS. It’s definitely original and out of the box thinking, but has the chance to be both overpowered in 1v1 fights, and get you wrecked in other fights. If I had a full life force, and was facing anyone I would just dodge every one of their attacks while dealing condition damage or minions. Being a DS build would only be effective to build up more dodges.
I don’t dislike the idea. I just see it’s potential for abuse. It’s like the minion idea where we get charges and can summon more on death, which could potentially lead us to creating a wall of dead minions and destroying whole armies in wvwvw or being completely useless in 1v1.
I like the idea, but I think it would end up being overpowered. I like the extra mobility it would give us, something I do think we need. And the idea that we are using life-force as another way to keep ourselves alive is great.
How about instead of dodges costing LF, what if going into DS refilled endurance?Something similar to Signet of Aglity. I’m thinking refilling 50% of endurance on a 30ish sec cool down would give us a lot more mobility, without causing too much balancing issues.
Yeah I also think it’s an interesting idea! I would love to see the idea of health-sacrifice return, and LF might be a way to do it.
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