I think Life Force should act as an entity that fights from within the necromancer. It provides support while the necromancer to fight with his/her regular weapon and skills. That means the necromancer can use LF skills at the same time as his weapons skills and utility skills.
We should remove DS altogether, and add 8 skills to F1 to F8 that uses LF. Each skill costs significant life force. Since these actions are performed by LF and not the necromancer himself/herself, none of them are interruptible. And none of the skills have cooldown.
A necro cannot use certain LF skills if he/she doesn’t have enough LF.
For example:
F1: Spiritual Protection: For 5 seconds your LF blocks the next 3 attacks against you. Cost 20% LF.
F2: Spiritual grasp: You target is chained and cannot move for 3 seconds. Cost 10% LF
F2 alternative: Spiritual pull: You pull your target to your location. Cost 10% LF.
F3: Spiritual arms: Your LF forms arms and swings wildly and hits everyone nearby you for the next 5 seconds. Cost 20% LF.
F4: Spiritual force: Your LF swings around and knockback all nearby foes. Costs 10% LF.
F5: Spiritual gun: Your LF fires at target foe, dealing damage and knocks him back. Cost 10% LF.
F6: Spiritual sacrafice: You LF forms a ghost and charges at the target. If it hits, target is chained for 3 seconds. 3 seconds later, the ghost explodes at that location dealing deviating damage. 100% LF.
F7: Spiritual wall: You LF forms a wall at the target location. No hostile projectile can get though and no enemies can walk though. 30% LF.
F8: Spiritual teleport: You teleport to target location: Costs 20% LF.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Well first let me say I like the DS mechanic as is, not to say it couldn’t use some fine tuning.
But LOL at this idea of yours.. I got to say this is the single most rediculously OP suggestion I’ve seen on these boards.. 30 seconds of spam-able immobile? Really? Endless knockdowns pulls and immobile.. Sounds fair..
Well first let me say I like the DS mechanic as is, not to say it couldn’t use some fine tuning.
But LOL at this idea of yours.. I got to say this is the single most rediculously OP suggestion I’ve seen on these boards.. 30 seconds of spam-able immobile? Really? Endless knockdowns pulls and immobile.. Sounds fair..
No need to focus on the specific skills right now. Just discuss the general idea of removing DS and adding LF skills.
I personally really hate how the DS is setup. It took away all my skills. I can’t even heal.
1. They aren’t going to completely and entirely change a class like this. This would require a complete revamp of all necro skills and traits.
2. Having this many skills is too strong. You are basically giving us 8 more utility skills that we can use.
3. They are way too strong.
It makes us do too much damage, too fast, with too much tankiness, and too high maneuverability. We could out-everything everyone.
Well first let me say I like the DS mechanic as is, not to say it couldn’t use some fine tuning.
But LOL at this idea of yours.. I got to say this is the single most rediculously OP suggestion I’ve seen on these boards.. 30 seconds of spam-able immobile? Really? Endless knockdowns pulls and immobile.. Sounds fair..
No need to focus on the specific skills right now. Just discuss the general idea of removing DS and adding LF skills.
I personally really hate how the DS is setup. It took away all my skills. I can’t even heal.
Well that’s kind of the point of it though.. It’s there to absorb damage and provide utility, while also being able to do some damage(decent damage at that for power builds anyways).
I like the fact that knowing I have 6 seconds left until I can heal for example, and I’m taking focused damage, I can pop into DS and survive for those 6 seconds and then pop out and use my heal..
I would like some adjustments tho. For example I’d like one of the DS skills to provide condition removal..
Death Shroud is perfectly fine the way it is, the only thing I would like to see is a improvement to the UI so i’m able to see conditions that are on my character.
Like the other people said you idea is ridiculously OP. Elementalists, Guardians, which I know of have 4 F1 skills you want us to have 8? Besides that being obviously over powered the fact remains that Necromancers are a attrition class and not meant to to do massive amounts of damage. They are meant to survive and wear down their opponents which Death Shroud helps do by providing a life force pool to expand our HP pool.
You would probably like playing a Theif, since you can spam skills without cooldowns and burst enemies down super fast.
I think a better and more feasible switch would be to give DS LF loss a flat damage loss with each hit as well as the gradual decline. Currently its a scaling loss so you may be able to buffer a little hit, but the large hits will completely take out your LF.
I will admit this one – F3: Spiritual arms: Your LF forms arms and swings wildly and hits everyone nearby you for the next 5 seconds. Cost 20% LF.
Made me laugh so hard. Btw, all your names for abilities sound like a guardian name.
This has been suggested a few times before and I do like the idea. 4 skills would be more than enough. No more DS form, but the aspects of it are kept via four skills.
1) Life Blast: Nuke that heals for 30% of damage done. 10 LF.
2) Dark Path: Same as current, no bleed but faster projectile. 30 LF.
3) Doom: Fear (1s) and Bleed (2×5s)your target and nearby enemies. 30 LF.
4) Will of Undeath: Remove crowd control effects and gain a damage absorbtion shield. 50 LF.
1. They aren’t going to completely and entirely change a class like this. This would require a complete revamp of all necro skills and traits.
2. Having this many skills is too strong. You are basically giving us 8 more utility skills that we can use.
3. They are way too strong.It makes us do too much damage, too fast, with too much tankiness, and too high maneuverability. We could out-everything everyone.
You got to keep in mind that LF aren’t unlimited. Many of the skills costs 20% LF. That’s roughly 4k worth of health. The LF skills aren’t meant for spamming. They are used only situationally to support the necro’s main weapon skills and utilities.
Having 8 skills doesn’t mean you can use all 8. Each cost LF. You got to pick and choose. And this is still a farcry to an ele’s available skills.
The main strength of this LF system is the ability to use LF skills alongside your main weapon skills, for some devastating combos. LF skills won’t win the match for you by themselves.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
This has been suggested a few times before and I do like the idea. 4 skills would be more than enough. No more DS form, but the aspects of it are kept via four skills.
1) Life Blast: Nuke that heals for 30% of damage done. 10 LF.
2) Dark Path: Same as current, no bleed but faster projectile. 30 LF.
3) Doom: Fear (1s) and Bleed (2×5s)your target and nearby enemies. 30 LF.
4) Will of Undeath: Remove crowd control effects and gain a damage absorbtion shield. 50 LF.
So essentially we would now be guardians with no block, and horrifyingly bad dodge, because right now DS lasts as the shield, and deals damage since we couldn’t do both with yours we would essentially be useless in any 1v1, and it would be horrifying to see how fast we would die. remember we have the fewest stun breaks and no access to vigor.
This has been suggested a few times before and I do like the idea. 4 skills would be more than enough. No more DS form, but the aspects of it are kept via four skills.
1) Life Blast: Nuke that heals for 30% of damage done. 10 LF.
2) Dark Path: Same as current, no bleed but faster projectile. 30 LF.
3) Doom: Fear (1s) and Bleed (2×5s)your target and nearby enemies. 30 LF.
4) Will of Undeath: Remove crowd control effects and gain a damage absorbtion shield. 50 LF.So essentially we would now be guardians with no block, and horrifyingly bad dodge, because right now DS lasts as the shield, and deals damage since we couldn’t do both with yours we would essentially be useless in any 1v1, and it would be horrifying to see how fast we would die. remember we have the fewest stun breaks and no access to vigor.
Under the new LS system necros can use LS skills while stunned to counter enemy moves. LF is in essence a separate entity. So that’s the trick. Necros do not have strong stun breaks, but they are semi-immune to stuns.
The new necro will be the best counter class in the game. It is designed to outlast the enemy by countering skills that the enemy throws at it, while slowly wearing down the enemy. This is truly an attrition class.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
No, we’ll become a glorified thief with this. Power build + wells + this = thief on roids.
The only major overhaul I’d like to see for DS is: ability to see boons/conditions on yourself, and an alternate DS (that is able to be toggled to choose, or assign it to another (F)function key) that uses the underwater DS with some adjustments for the fear skill to be used on land and keep the QQ other classes happy. That way conditionmancers actually have a DS they can use and benefit from. (And backwards compatible too, able to use land DS underwater if you so choose so powermancers can benefit as well)
(edited by Nay of the Ether.8913)
No, we’ll become a glorified thief with this. Power build + wells + this = thief on roids.
Necro still won’t be hitting 8k a hit. When a necro has full LF he/she should be dangerous. However when LF is low the necro is weak. That’s the balance.
And unlike thief with stealth and eles with RTL, necro still cannot engage at will.
Actually, we could easily pull people to us with 20% LF, then spend the next 80% using spiritual gun, keeping them permanently knocked down and dealing damage, while we use Focus 4, then dagger auto attacks.
It doesn’t matter if we can’t 8k in one hit, we’ll still be glorified thieves and be turned into a burst class.
1. They aren’t going to completely and entirely change a class like this. This would require a complete revamp of all necro skills and traits.
2. Having this many skills is too strong. You are basically giving us 8 more utility skills that we can use.
3. They are way too strong.It makes us do too much damage, too fast, with too much tankiness, and too high maneuverability. We could out-everything everyone.
arenanet have already done this to the necro’s DS mechanic. im still waiting on them to revamp the skills and traits to even come close to what was taken away. DS was a stun break on activation, could be traited for stability for its entire duration, and had means for renewing life force while in DS without relying solely on life transfer. this was the original design. this is why we didn’t need any escape abilities. this is why we have extremely limited ways to mitigate incoming damage.
while i agree that DS in this form was very powerful, arenanet could have used a scalpel instead of a hatchet when nerfing it. they simply could have limited the necro’s DS duration in a number of ways as a start. after all, arenanet’s no secret ‘trial and error stance’ on making small changes first must have clearly missed the mark in this case. they never gave the playerbase time really experience DS strengths and flaws in its pre-nerf form.
im not saying this applies to you, but i don’t think most players realize this about the necro. and im pretty sure the necro is the only profession to have received any treatment of this scale to their primary mechanic.
arenanet have already done this to the necro’s DS mechanic. im still waiting on them to revamp the skills and traits to even come close to what was taken away. DS was a stun break on activation, could be traited for stability for its entire duration, and had means for renewing life force while in DS without relying solely on life transfer. this was the original design. this is why we didn’t need any escape abilities. this is why we have extremely limited ways to mitigate incoming damage.
while i agree that DS in this form was very powerful, arenanet could have used a scalpel instead of a hatchet when nerfing it. they simply could have limited the necro’s DS duration in a number of ways as a start. after all, arenanet’s no secret ‘trial and error stance’ on making small changes first must have clearly missed the mark in this case. they never gave the playerbase time really experience DS strengths and flaws in its pre-nerf form.
im not saying this applies to you, but i don’t think most players realize this about the necro. and im pretty sure the necro is the only profession to have received any treatment of this scale to their primary mechanic.
They have changed it a lot from conception to closed beta to open beta. But from open beta on, it has remained fairly similar, although with minor changes. I do agree that there are certain things about it that shouldn’t have been smashed so hard, Necromancers were severly OP pre-DS and Lich nerfs. Pre DS nerf, DS necros could win 3v1 fights simply because going in and out of DS often made you practically unkillable. Lich form was similar, except that instead of being unkillable, it gave you champion level damage output such that Lich was guaranteed to win any and every fight it was used in.
They just overreacted on the nerf sticking a little, and in time that will peel back a little. This game is still only half a year old, it’ll get better.
My 3 notes on it:
a) My crazy LF minion channel idea is probably more balanced than this and that would allow you the use of 3 Flesh Golems…
b) CHIPS.6018 & DS, still a better love story than Twilight
c) Obviously you mastered Death Shroud, became the ultimate broken necromancer JP was talking about and with the knowledge of how op it is, want to now nerf it.
I think Life Force should act as an entity that fights from within the necromancer. It provides support while the necromancer to fight with his/her regular weapon and skills. That means the necromancer can use LF skills at the same time as his weapons skills and utility skills.
We should remove DS altogether, and add 8 skills to F1 to F8 that uses LF. Each skill costs significant life force. Since these actions are performed by LF and not the necromancer himself/herself, none of them are interruptible. And none of the skills have cooldown.
A necro cannot use certain LF skills if he/she doesn’t have enough LF.
For example:
F1: Spiritual Protection: For 5 seconds your LF blocks the next 3 attacks against you. Cost 20% LF.
F2: Spiritual grasp: You target is chained and cannot move for 3 seconds. Cost 10% LF
F2 alternative: Spiritual pull: You pull your target to your location. Cost 10% LF.
F3: Spiritual arms: Your LF forms arms and swings wildly and hits everyone nearby you for the next 5 seconds. Cost 20% LF.
F4: Spiritual force: Your LF swings around and knockback all nearby foes. Costs 10% LF.
F5: Spiritual gun: Your LF fires at target foe, dealing damage and knocks him down. Cost 10% LF.
F6: Spiritual sacrafice: You LF forms a ghost and charges at the target. If it hits, target is chained for 3 seconds. 3 seconds later, the ghost explodes at that location dealing deviating damage. 100% LF.
F7: Spiritual wall: You LF forms a wall at the target location. No hostile projectile can get though and no enemies can walk though. 30% LF.
F8: Spiritual teleport: You teleport to target location: Costs 20% LF.
and CHIPS makes his worst post ever….
this idea feels so devoid of necromancy altogether, it seems like you just finished watching the green lantern and playing a guardian and then made all this up.
sorry but this is ridiculous.
They have changed it a lot from conception to closed beta to open beta. But from open beta on, it has remained fairly similar, although with minor changes. I do agree that there are certain things about it that shouldn’t have been smashed so hard, Necromancers were severly OP pre-DS and Lich nerfs. Pre DS nerf, DS necros could win 3v1 fights simply because going in and out of DS often made you practically unkillable. Lich form was similar, except that instead of being unkillable, it gave you champion level damage output such that Lich was guaranteed to win any and every fight it was used in.
They just overreacted on the nerf sticking a little, and in time that will peel back a little. This game is still only half a year old, it’ll get better.
not to try and keep going off topic, as this would be better for its own thread, but i agree. although now that the players have had time to become familiar with all the professions, im not so sure a necro would still be able 3vs1 people, even with pre-nerf DS. experience will always be your best weapon so im sure that the players could have come to terms on how to exploit DS flaws in time. the scalpel here would have helped to ease this transition.
call me old-fashioned, but i always prefer this route before labeling things OP, which there is not many things are OP in the game. arenanet still thinks the necro is a class that wins their battles through attrition while taking away or severely limiting the very things that would let them do so. the hard cc coupled with the right damage is just too much for the necro to handle in its current state.
what would i call OP? besides the topic starter’s LF skills, i would say the number one thing on my list would be the disabled effect. it’s too strong when chained, allowing for people to just focus spam it. i believe that you should not be disabled again until the initial disabled effect has run its course. this would require players to actually show some semblance of skill when trying to shut down a target.
Actually, we could easily pull people to us with 20% LF, then spend the next 80% using spiritual gun, keeping them permanently knocked down and dealing damage, while we use Focus 4, then dagger auto attacks.
It doesn’t matter if we can’t 8k in one hit, we’ll still be glorified thieves and be turned into a burst class.
Keep in mind that all LF skills can be blocked or dodged. Stability would prevent knock down and daze. If the necro aren’t careful that’s 20% or more LF gone.
I think Life Force should act as an entity that fights from within the necromancer. It provides support while the necromancer to fight with his/her regular weapon and skills. That means the necromancer can use LF skills at the same time as his weapons skills and utility skills.
We should remove DS altogether, and add 8 skills to F1 to F8 that uses LF. Each skill costs significant life force. Since these actions are performed by LF and not the necromancer himself/herself, none of them are interruptible. And none of the skills have cooldown.
A necro cannot use certain LF skills if he/she doesn’t have enough LF.
For example:
F1: Spiritual Protection: For 5 seconds your LF blocks the next 3 attacks against you. Cost 20% LF.
F2: Spiritual grasp: You target is chained and cannot move for 3 seconds. Cost 10% LF
F2 alternative: Spiritual pull: You pull your target to your location. Cost 10% LF.
F3: Spiritual arms: Your LF forms arms and swings wildly and hits everyone nearby you for the next 5 seconds. Cost 20% LF.
F4: Spiritual force: Your LF swings around and knockback all nearby foes. Costs 10% LF.
F5: Spiritual gun: Your LF fires at target foe, dealing damage and knocks him down. Cost 10% LF.
F6: Spiritual sacrafice: You LF forms a ghost and charges at the target. If it hits, target is chained for 3 seconds. 3 seconds later, the ghost explodes at that location dealing deviating damage. 100% LF.
F7: Spiritual wall: You LF forms a wall at the target location. No hostile projectile can get though and no enemies can walk though. 30% LF.
F8: Spiritual teleport: You teleport to target location: Costs 20% LF.and CHIPS makes his worst post ever….
this idea feels so devoid of necromancy altogether, it seems like you just finished watching the green lantern and playing a guardian and then made all this up.
sorry but this is ridiculous.
Nope the idea came from blue mage from Final Fantasy. The whole idea of LF is taking the power from dead enemies and using them for your own. So a lot of LF skills would be similar that what other professions got.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Why not just fix Death Shroud…
I’d also be interested to experience the effect of healing being allowed in DS first hand, seems an unnecessary restriction to me.
I think healing your real HP while in DS would unbalance it. The problem would become that you are now not only tanking damage and/or stalling for time for CDs, but if you could heal, you could nearly “restart” the fight every time you went into DS by healing up at least portions of your HP bar and getting extra time on your big CDs, all while the enemy is completely unable to truly hurt you.
I don’t think there is any problem with LF gain in sPvP, although I think they should give you at least a very small bit of LF when the game starts, because atm you go into your first fight weaker than other classes.
I think they could look into 1 being affected by your main hand weapon, giving it something similar to what that weapon’s use is. I think 4 is fine as is though, most conditionmancer builds that pop into DS should have a decently high crit chance (around 40-50% because of DS fury), and that will allow them to apply bleeds in an AoE, it makes the ability really strong if you are running a rabid build.
And possibly a 5th skill slot, although I’m not sure what they could do there to make DS better but not overpower it.
I think healing your real HP while in DS would unbalance it. The problem would become that you are now not only tanking damage and/or stalling for time for CDs, but if you could heal, you could nearly “restart” the fight every time you went into DS by healing up at least portions of your HP bar and getting extra time on your big CDs, all while the enemy is completely unable to truly hurt you.
And the problem lies in? Theif stealth (except for shadow refuge in combat), Guadian Renewed Focus, Ranger Trap nest into Spring and Ele water switch (especially if with 30 arcane) all do pretty much the same thing, reseting the fight by maximum potential damage output, but returning the hp bar to a reasonable survival level while cooldowns get up, for the other classes same could be said with Mace/Shield Warriors, Mesmer Moa and Elixir S, but they are way stronger in combat abuse than a hp reset.
(edited by Andele.1306)
I think healing your real HP while in DS would unbalance it. The problem would become that you are now not only tanking damage and/or stalling for time for CDs, but if you could heal, you could nearly “restart” the fight every time you went into DS by healing up at least portions of your HP bar and getting extra time on your big CDs, all while the enemy is completely unable to truly hurt you.
And the problem lies in? Theif stealth (except for shadow refuge in combat), Guadian Renewed Focus, Ranger Trap nest into Spring and ele water switch (especially if with 30 arcane) all do pretty much the same thing, reseting the fight by maximum potential damage output, but returning the hp bar to a reasonable survival level while cooldowns get up, for the other classes same could be said with Mace/Shield Warriors, Mesmer Moa and Elixir S, but they are way stronger in combat abuse than a hp reset.
Yep, especially considering the only healing you could be receiving is residual ticks of regeneration which you may or may not have running at the time you go into shroud. I don’t think that’s anywhere in the realm of OP, just fair.
(edited by Brew Pinch.5731)
And the problem lies in? Theif stealth (except for shadow refuge in combat), Guadian Renewed Focus, Ranger Trap nest into Spring and Ele water switch (especially if with 30 arcane) all do pretty much the same thing, reseting the fight by maximum potential damage output, but returning the hp bar to a reasonable survival level while cooldowns get up, for the other classes same could be said with Mace/Shield Warriors, Mesmer Moa and Elixir S, but they are way stronger in combat abuse than a hp reset.
You are naming builds, of course there are builds with strong defense. This would make every single necro build, regardless of how we spec, able to reset battles every time we hit 100% LF. Those other classes are forced to trait certain things, use certain weapons, use certain utilities; essentially they have to actually give up on damage to be able to have those fight-resetting abilities. Now, if healing while in DS was made into a trait, such that you actually need to spec into it (and therefore sacrifice another aspect), then it could possibly be balanced. But as is, giving healing to DS would give every build far too much defensive ability with absolutely no cost.
You are naming builds, of course there are builds with strong defense. This would make every single necro build, regardless of how we spec, able to reset battles every time we hit 100% LF. Those other classes are forced to trait certain things, use certain weapons, use certain utilities; essentially they have to actually give up on damage to be able to have those fight-resetting abilities. Now, if healing while in DS was made into a trait, such that you actually need to spec into it (and therefore sacrifice another aspect), then it could possibly be balanced. But as is, giving healing to DS would give every build far too much defensive ability with absolutely no cost.
First off, whoever it is, stop hacking my comp and looking into my GW2 change list and posting parts on the forums (Near to death allowing the use of the healing utility while in DS – joke ofc X3).
Second, almost every offensive ele is forced into D/D and even if he has another weapon set there are simmilar but maybe weaker/more situational defensive options, Renewed is as much of a must for a good guardian as is staff as a weapon for necro (its just stronger than the other 2 unless you do something crazy like one of the teams that went a 3 man control point setup with 2 roamers a few months ago against a few guys from curse on twitch. Trap ranger is a specific, but right now the most seen Ranger build in pvp. With how much life force you generate if you arent Dagger/Warhorn, the degeneration of LF and the fact that its damage consumption scales of vitality, id cant really imagine a glass cannon necro could do more with DS than a zerk Guardian can with Block reapplication. thus allowing Regeneration, ally heals and heals over time to affect the necro in DS doesnt seem that strong (again probably with a heal penalty/treating heals as if you have the poison condition).
(edited by Andele.1306)
And the problem lies in? Theif stealth (except for shadow refuge in combat), Guadian Renewed Focus, Ranger Trap nest into Spring and Ele water switch (especially if with 30 arcane) all do pretty much the same thing, reseting the fight by maximum potential damage output, but returning the hp bar to a reasonable survival level while cooldowns get up, for the other classes same could be said with Mace/Shield Warriors, Mesmer Moa and Elixir S, but they are way stronger in combat abuse than a hp reset.
You are naming builds, of course there are builds with strong defense. This would make every single necro build, regardless of how we spec, able to reset battles every time we hit 100% LF. Those other classes are forced to trait certain things, use certain weapons, use certain utilities; essentially they have to actually give up on damage to be able to have those fight-resetting abilities. Now, if healing while in DS was made into a trait, such that you actually need to spec into it (and therefore sacrifice another aspect), then it could possibly be balanced. But as is, giving healing to DS would give every build far too much defensive ability with absolutely no cost.
Well to be fair, the “current” DS only benefits power and critical builds that makes full use of DS1. Condition and other builds are useless with DS. So we have this “ultimate” necro ability that only benefits certain builds, but not everyone. How is that fair?
That’s exactly why the current DS system is bad. It shuts down your whole skill bar. There is nearly zero synergy between DS and other necro skills. You cannot heal. Condition damage is almost useless with DS. Your play style normally and when you are in DS is totally different. You are not yourself when you are in DS.
I repeat, the only people that loves DS are those that use power and critical builds. The reason is that it doesn’t change their play style that much, when they switch between normal and DS. They are going full blast damage anyways.
Look at DS2. How does that benefit any other build except main hand dagger? When Anet designed DS they clearly only had the blast class in mind. That’s the main cause of all the grieve people have against DS. Not every necro build to be a blast class.
Changing/adding skills to DS aren’t the solution. They can never change/add enough skills into DS to make it work with all the different necro builds. For example let’s say a necro relies on Well of Blood to heal her allies, and that’s a big part of her build. How would DS ever help her build (e.g. benefit the wells somehow), when DS disables the necro’s whole skill bar in the first place? It can’t and it never can.
Remove DS totally. Add LF skills. That way LF would benefit all the different necro builds.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Well to be fair, the “current” DS only benefits power and critical builds that makes full use of DS1. Condition and other builds are useless with DS. So we have this “ultimate” necro ability that only benefits certain builds, but not everyone. How is that fair?
That’s exactly why the current DS system is bad. It shuts down your whole skill bar. There is nearly zero synergy between DS and other necro skills. You cannot heal. Condition damage is almost useless with DS. Your play style normally and when you are in DS is totally different. You are not yourself when you are in DS.
I repeat, the only people that loves DS are those that use power and critical builds. The reason is that it doesn’t change their play style that much, when they switch between normal and DS. They are going full blast damage anyways.
Look at DS2. How does that benefit any other build except main hand dagger? When Anet designed DS they clearly only had the blast class in mind. That’s the main cause of all the grieve people have against DS. Not every necro build to be a blast class.
Changing/adding skills to DS aren’t the solution. They can never change/add enough skills into DS to make it work with all the different necro builds. For example let’s say a necro relies on Well of Blood to heal her allies, and that’s a big part of her build. How would DS ever help her build (e.g. benefit the wells somehow), when DS disables the necro’s whole skill bar in the first place? It can’t and it never can.
Remove DS totally. Add LF skills. That way LF would benefit all the different necro builds.
So you want to say that condition builds with Shrouded Removal and eating bursts dont benefit from DS? Despite how much i dont like some parts of it (and i still think that Foot in the Grave should give effect stability like earth elementals have and that toughness should make more of a difference in DS damage), it still feels better/fits more the Mighty Glacier playstyle necro than what would be a cheap imitation of using Engie toolbelts and Guardian Virtues just because of how it changes where and where you cant screw up in a fight.
Here is how it helps wells: 1. you use Doom to push a peron into one 2. you use Dark path to chill slow them and force them to either take damage or use a dodge 3. Life transfer to abuse the damage amplification Well of Suffering gives.
Overall im shocked to say this without it being a joke, but dear god learn how to use DS properly.
The only major overhaul I’d like to see for DS is: ability to see boons/conditions on yourself, and an alternate DS (that is able to be toggled to choose, or assign it to another (F)function key) that uses the underwater DS with some adjustments for the fear skill to be used on land and keep the QQ other classes happy. That way conditionmancers actually have a DS they can use and benefit from. (And backwards compatible too, able to use land DS underwater if you so choose so powermancers can benefit as well)
I like this +1. As a condition build the regular death shroud is not so good for me.
Well to be fair, the “current” DS only benefits power and critical builds that makes full use of DS1. Condition and other builds are useless with DS. So we have this “ultimate” necro ability that only benefits certain builds, but not everyone. How is that fair?
That’s exactly why the current DS system is bad. It shuts down your whole skill bar. There is nearly zero synergy between DS and other necro skills. You cannot heal. Condition damage is almost useless with DS. Your play style normally and when you are in DS is totally different. You are not yourself when you are in DS.
I repeat, the only people that loves DS are those that use power and critical builds. The reason is that it doesn’t change their play style that much, when they switch between normal and DS. They are going full blast damage anyways.
Look at DS2. How does that benefit any other build except main hand dagger? When Anet designed DS they clearly only had the blast class in mind. That’s the main cause of all the grieve people have against DS. Not every necro build to be a blast class.
Changing/adding skills to DS aren’t the solution. They can never change/add enough skills into DS to make it work with all the different necro builds. For example let’s say a necro relies on Well of Blood to heal her allies, and that’s a big part of her build. How would DS ever help her build (e.g. benefit the wells somehow), when DS disables the necro’s whole skill bar in the first place? It can’t and it never can.
Remove DS totally. Add LF skills. That way LF would benefit all the different necro builds.
So you want to say that condition builds with Shrouded Removal and eating bursts dont benefit from DS? Despite how much i dont like some parts of it (and i still think that Foot in the Grave should give effect stability like earth elementals have and that toughness should make more of a difference in DS damage), it still feels better/fits more the Mighty Glacier playstyle necro than what would be a cheap imitation of using Engie toolbelts and Guardian Virtues just because of how it changes where and where you cant screw up in a fight.
Here is how it helps wells: 1. you use Doom to push a peron into one 2. you use Dark path to chill slow them and force them to either take damage or use a dodge 3. Life transfer to abuse the damage amplification Well of Suffering gives.Overall im shocked to say this without it being a joke, but dear god learn how to use DS properly.
How does Well of Blood benefit from shrouded removal? Not much because: 1) WoB is disabled when you are in DS. 2) You cannot be healed while in DS.
How does condition damage benefit from DS? Not much because: 1) DS disabled all weapon and utility skills with condition damage. 2) DS doesn’t deal condition damage, unless you trait into fear damage.
I can pull out many more examples. But the point is that DS does not, and cannot, benefit all the different necro builds out there. DS, with DS1 auto attack, clearly benefits power and critical builds the most. The other builds not so much.
Remember, DS is supposed to be the “game changer” for the necros. Necros=ALL necros of all builds. So how is this fair that only a certain few necro builds get full benefits from DS?
The “game changers” for other professions benefits all builds. Thief stealth clearly benefits all builds. Mesmer portal clearly benefits all builds. etc.
And that’s why the current DS system is flawed.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Well to be fair, the “current” DS only benefits power and critical builds that makes full use of DS1. Condition and other builds are useless with DS. So we have this “ultimate” necro ability that only benefits certain builds, but not everyone. How is that fair?
That’s exactly why the current DS system is bad. It shuts down your whole skill bar. There is nearly zero synergy between DS and other necro skills. You cannot heal. Condition damage is almost useless with DS. Your play style normally and when you are in DS is totally different. You are not yourself when you are in DS.
I repeat, the only people that loves DS are those that use power and critical builds. The reason is that it doesn’t change their play style that much, when they switch between normal and DS. They are going full blast damage anyways.
Look at DS2. How does that benefit any other build except main hand dagger? When Anet designed DS they clearly only had the blast class in mind. That’s the main cause of all the grieve people have against DS. Not every necro build to be a blast class.
Changing/adding skills to DS aren’t the solution. They can never change/add enough skills into DS to make it work with all the different necro builds. For example let’s say a necro relies on Well of Blood to heal her allies, and that’s a big part of her build. How would DS ever help her build (e.g. benefit the wells somehow), when DS disables the necro’s whole skill bar in the first place? It can’t and it never can.
Remove DS totally. Add LF skills. That way LF would benefit all the different necro builds.
So you want to say that condition builds with Shrouded Removal and eating bursts dont benefit from DS? Despite how much i dont like some parts of it (and i still think that Foot in the Grave should give effect stability like earth elementals have and that toughness should make more of a difference in DS damage), it still feels better/fits more the Mighty Glacier playstyle necro than what would be a cheap imitation of using Engie toolbelts and Guardian Virtues just because of how it changes where and where you cant screw up in a fight.
Here is how it helps wells: 1. you use Doom to push a peron into one 2. you use Dark path to chill slow them and force them to either take damage or use a dodge 3. Life transfer to abuse the damage amplification Well of Suffering gives.Overall im shocked to say this without it being a joke, but dear god learn how to use DS properly.
How does Well of Blood benefit from shrouded removal? It is physically impossible because: 1) WoB is disabled when you are in DS. 2) You cannot be healed while in DS.
I can pull out many more examples. But the point is that DS does not, and cannot, benefit all the different necro builds out there. DS, with DS1 auto attack, clearly benefits power and critical builds the most. The other builds not so much.
Remember, DS is supposed to be the “game changer” for the necros. Necros=ALL necros of all builds. So how is this fair that only a certain few necro builds get full benefits from DS?
The “game changers” for other professions benefits all builds. Thief stealth clearly benefits all builds. Mesmer portal clearly benefit all builds. etc.
And that’s why the current DS system is flawed.
And what’s wrong with simply modifying the skills to make them better benefit all Necro builds rather then scrapping what imo is a very cool system and THE thing that makes the Necro unique amongst the other classes?
The “game changers” for other professions benefits all builds. Thief stealth clearly benefits all builds. Mesmer portal clearly benefits all builds. etc.
Those aren’t the class mechanic, those are just regular utility or weapons skills. Why are you comparing class mechanics to utility and weapon skills? Some necro builds take more advantage of the class mechanic than others – so what? It’s the same for all professions…condition mesmers don’t get as much damage off of shatter 1 as power mesmers…not all warriors take the reduced Burst skill CD or shouts granting adrenaline…etc etc
*BlTCHSLAPS CHIPS.6018* You still didnt make any evidence that confirms that DS doesnt benefit all builds in at least one way, making your argument flawed and the while whine post proof of what is wrong with the relationship between devs and the community.
To everyone, please note one of the examples why we cant have nice things.
The “game changers” for other professions benefits all builds. Thief stealth clearly benefits all builds. Mesmer portal clearly benefits all builds. etc.
Those aren’t the class mechanic, those are just regular utility or weapons skills. Why are you comparing class mechanics to utility and weapon skills? Some necro builds take more advantage of the class mechanic than others – so what? It’s the same for all professions…condition mesmers don’t get as much damage off of shatter 1 as power mesmers…not all warriors take the reduced Burst skill CD or shouts granting adrenaline…etc etc
The huge difference is that all those class mechanics work alongside the player’s regular skills. Mesmer clones do not disable your regular skill bar. Thief stealing do not disable your regular skill bar. etc.
When you DS you cannot use any of your regular skills. You cannot be healed. Your whole skill bar is replaced by 4 DS skills, which only benefits one specific build of power and critical.
For example a conditionmancer that uses staff and Epidemic is worst off when he has DS on. DS doesn’t support his build. In fact DS shuts down his whole build. A zerg might be scared of the necro when he spreads conditions. But once he turns on DS, they LOL at him since he is no longer a threat.
BlTCHSLAPS CHIPS.6018 You still didnt make any evidence that confirms that DS doesnt benefit all builds in at least one way, making your argument flawed and the while whine post proof of what is wrong with the relationship between devs and the community.
To everyone, please note one of the examples why we cant have nice things.
-Highly offensive comment that offers nothing to the discussion.
-Claiming that I didn’t provide evidence and examples when I did.
-Claiming that my arguement is flawed without prove.
-Trying to place die-hard necro fans as superior to necro complainers.
-Accuse Anet of ignoring the necro forums due to necro complainers without prove.
It is people like you that make the game stagnant by refusing change and ruin productive forum discussions.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
When you DS you cannot use any of your regular skills. You cannot be healed. Your whole skill bar is replaced by 4 DS skills, which only benefits one specific build of power and critical.
Do you have any concept of CDs? I can blow all my CDs, go into DS, use its abilities (and also take no “real” damage while this is happening) and then pop back out in a few seconds when my abilities are back up. The lowest CDs we have even on big abilities like epidemic are still at least 10 seconds long, if you can’t plan your DS use around big abilities like that, it is 100% an l2p issue.
Well first let me say I like the DS mechanic as is, not to say it couldn’t use some fine tuning.
But LOL at this idea of yours.. I got to say this is the single most rediculously OP suggestion I’ve seen on these boards.. 30 seconds of spam-able immobile? Really? Endless knockdowns pulls and immobile.. Sounds fair..
No need to focus on the specific skills right now. Just discuss the general idea of removing DS and adding LF skills.
I personally really hate how the DS is setup. It took away all my skills. I can’t even heal.
First thing i Need to ask is why would you need to be able to use your heal while in DS? DS is a different life bar. its letting you live longer so your heal cooldown will be ready when you get to your “normal” life bar.
While i would like to see some changes to DS i am happy with its current system that lets me stay alive much much longer. I am a condition necro and yes the DS abilities dont help much in the way of offense but you shouldnt be looking at DS as an offense. Necro in general is more of a defensive class designed to outlive your enemy. As the fight goes and being able to go in and out of DS and get past your next heal cooldown is a very powerful tool if you use it that way. You can even throw the Plague elite ability in there and you can survive some crazy stuff that most otehr classes could not.
I personally would still be okay with DS even if it had no abilities while in the form, the fact that the (4) lets you stay in DS a little longer and do some aoe damage is a bonus. (2) teleport and chill is also a nice bonus to have when teh target runs
DS flat out lets you live longer. to me thats one of the best class mechanics
@Chips i think your problem with DS is that you just want it to be more of an offensive ability
(edited by Pirhana.8935)
The huge difference is that all those class mechanics work alongside the player’s regular skills. Mesmer clones do not disable your regular skill bar. Thief stealing do not disable your regular skill bar. etc.
When you DS you cannot use any of your regular skills. You cannot be healed. Your whole skill bar is replaced by 4 DS skills, which only benefits one specific build of power and critical.
For example a conditionmancer that uses staff and Epidemic is worst off when he has DS on. DS doesn’t support his build. In fact DS shuts down his whole build. A zerg might be scared of the necro when he spreads conditions. But once he turns on DS, they LOL at him since he is no longer a threat.
Actually, the huge difference is that while in DS I take no regular damage, and can use CC, heal others, or deal damage while suffering no negatives. The only way to knock me out is to do a knockdown. No other class can bear the complete burst of another class and not lose health.
Mesmers key mechanic – shatter is useless if you kill their clones (very easy to do)
Theif stealing is on 45 second cooldown and is simply a niche in non-steal builds. As for stealth, any single ability use outside of the one stealth ability immediately breaks stealth.
DS is completely different mechanic, and because of this it’s based on different rules. I am not saying it’s perfect, I am saying that you are way too far into the negative to see the positives of the ability.
Mesmers, Guardians, and Engineers have the f1-f4 mechanic, and every single one of them have builds that don’t even use their key Mechanic. There isn’t a single Necro build that doesn’t gain something from using ours.
Warriors key mechanic cannot protect them in fact there are whole builds built around never using their key mechanic. Multiple builds
Rangers wish their key mechanic worked long enough to be effective. I am glad I don’t ahve that one.
Theives key mechanic is can miss, be dodged and is on a 45 second CD. If you consider stealth their key mechanic, than it’s temporary can be broken on action or damage.
Elementalists are the only other class whose key mechanic is as intregal as DS is to Necro builds. Simply because you don’t like the key mechanic doesn’t mean it needs to be overhauled. Tweaked so that we can see our CD’s? Yes. Do I want it overhauled completely for something resempling 1/3rd of the other classes? NO THANK YOU.
If you want to do something unique fine, but this idea can easily be thrown into overpowered or completely revamp and break the class. Plus you are taking the one awesomely unique aspect of our class, and homogenizing it. The concept of DS is awesome and very Necro. It’s the lack of seeing our CD’s that’s frustrating a majority of players.
Here is another example of how DS is very powerful defensive wise.
What is the biggest complain about afighting a a thief? "he teleported to me stunned me, backstabbed me and hearseakered me to death in few seconds before i could even move.
Now lets say you see him coming… pop DS ….. teleport, mug, backstab, HS, HS, HS he just killed your DS. Now your at full life ready to fight. the thiefs steal is down and he probably has zero initive.
You can bascally do the same thing if you see a D/D elementalist coming in with ride the lightning, they will blow all their fire damage ability cool downs just to kill your DS
When you DS you cannot use any of your regular skills. You cannot be healed. Your whole skill bar is replaced by 4 DS skills, which only benefits one specific build of power and critical.
Do you have any concept of CDs? I can blow all my CDs, go into DS, use its abilities (and also take no “real” damage while this is happening) and then pop back out in a few seconds when my abilities are back up. The lowest CDs we have even on big abilities like epidemic are still at least 10 seconds long, if you can’t plan your DS use around big abilities like that, it is 100% an l2p issue.
What about my staff2 that have 4.5 sec recharge?
What if Corrosive Poison Cloud just happens to be a skill that I carry? Oops sorry I just weakned myself so my DS1 is useless now.
Cool down is not the issue at hand here. I am talking about the “lack of synergy” that DS have with non-power/non-crit necro builds.
BTW DS doesn’t improve your cool downs. You are only using DS because it is available. If you use DS this way then clearly “timing of skill usage” is not an issue for you. So you are spamming utilities 1,2,3 on recharge, and then going into DS. What build might that be? Power and critical wellbomber build that’s what. So yes if you happen to run a power and critical wellbomber build, DS is great for you. Of course it is great there, and I already talked about this. But DS only “fully” benefits from builds like this, and that’s the main problem.
Any necro builds that requires timing, your method of playing won’t work. Those builds you cannot just spam utilities 1,2,3 and then go into DS. Those builds do not work that way. When you go into DS you are disabling your skills that aren’t on recharge.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
That is one BAD… thief or DD ele if he sits there hammering your ds. I just stand there laughing at necros that pop it. So you did… good job… now what? You let thief just sit there fill up his initiative or let ele stack up boons while all ur lf ticked away. Pfft pointless defense argument is still pointless.
Well first let me say I like the DS mechanic as is, not to say it couldn’t use some fine tuning.
But LOL at this idea of yours.. I got to say this is the single most rediculously OP suggestion I’ve seen on these boards.. 30 seconds of spam-able immobile? Really? Endless knockdowns pulls and immobile.. Sounds fair..
No need to focus on the specific skills right now. Just discuss the general idea of removing DS and adding LF skills.
I personally really hate how the DS is setup. It took away all my skills. I can’t even heal.
First thing i Need to ask is why would you need to be able to use your heal while in DS? DS is a different life bar. its letting you live longer so your heal cooldown will be ready when you get to your “normal” life bar.
While i would like to see some changes to DS i am happy with its current system that lets me stay alive much much longer. I am a condition necro and yes the DS abilities dont help much in the way of offense but you shouldnt be looking at DS as an offense. Necro in general is more of a defensive class designed to outlive your enemy. As the fight goes and being able to go in and out of DS and get past your next heal cooldown is a very powerful tool if you use it that way. You can even throw the Plague elite ability in there and you can survive some crazy stuff that most otehr classes could not.
I personally would still be okay with DS even if it had no abilities while in the form, the fact that the (4) lets you stay in DS a little longer and do some aoe damage is a bonus. (2) teleport and chill is also a nice bonus to have when teh target runs
DS flat out lets you live longer. to me thats one of the best class mechanics
@Chips i think your problem with DS is that you just want it to be more of an offensive ability
On theory maybe. But in practise necro don’t actually outlast. Necros are not welcomed/excluded from high end fractal because they don’t survive there. In WvW necros are often the priority target because they are easier (more straightforward) to kill than other classes. Just blow though their 40k hp and you get a dead necro.
A lot of people argued that necro is harder to learn but the skill ceiling is higher. Well if that’s true, you would expect necros to flood high end fractals and wvw since necros SHOULD BE stronger when the going gets tough. Not the case. Once the game gets tough and hardcore (high end fractual, wvw) necro under performs or disappears. What does that tell us about necro’s ACTUAL skill ceiling? Actual, not theoretical.
I had said this before. But necro’s solo defensive ability is having more health than other classes. Necro got no damage avoidance whatsoever. And you cannot learn to use your health better. When placed in high end fractuals, where every mob has super high damage, necro got no chance.
The game changer for necros, DS, is clearly not good enough. It requires at least major improvements, or a major overhaul.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
Any more opinion on this?
On theory maybe. But in practise necro don’t actually outlast. Necros are not welcomed/excluded from high end fractal because they don’t survive there. In WvW necros are often the priority target because they are easier (more straightforward) to kill than other classes. Just blow though their 40k hp and you get a dead necro.
A lot of people argued that necro is harder to learn but the skill ceiling is higher. Well if that’s true, you would expect necros to flood high end fractals and wvw since necros SHOULD BE stronger when the going gets tough. Not the case. Once the game gets tough and hardcore (high end fractual, wvw) necro under performs or disappears. What does that tell us about necro’s ACTUAL skill ceiling? Actual, not theoretical.
I had said this before. But necro’s solo defensive ability is having more health than other classes. Necro got no damage avoidance whatsoever. And you cannot learn to use your health better. When placed in high end fractuals, where every mob has super high damage, necro got no chance.
The game changer for necros, DS, is clearly not good enough. It requires at least major improvements, or a major overhaul.
Necromancers outlast fine, we do not survive burst damage well, we also lack burst damage. That is our problem in high end PvE, the bosses all do huge burst damage we can’t avoid easily, and we can’t do high burst damage to end fights quickly. It is the inherit shortcomings of an attrition based class with our defensive set.
WvW is a completely different issue. If you play correctly, you will never die in WvW as a necro. It is the same style you use if you are WvWing on a low level character (I often WvW on characters below level 10), you use high range weapons, stay in the back, and use supportive AoE mindset. Again, the reason we die easily here is due to huge burst damage.
In PvP however, necros are the absolute kinds of outlasting. I have had multiple 1v1 fights against what are considered the “best” bunker builds in the game, where the match never finished because the game ran out of time. D/D bunker eles and bunker guardians, with tons of boons and healing, cannot outlast necromancers.
Necromancers being a class of attrition, need to be weak to burst. If we are stronger the longer a fight goes, then obviously our counterplay will be ending the fight quickly (aka bursting). No change to DS will do this without completely overpowering us.
On theory maybe. But in practise necro don’t actually outlast. Necros are not welcomed/excluded from high end fractal because they don’t survive there. In WvW necros are often the priority target because they are easier (more straightforward) to kill than other classes. Just blow though their 40k hp and you get a dead necro.
A lot of people argued that necro is harder to learn but the skill ceiling is higher. Well if that’s true, you would expect necros to flood high end fractals and wvw since necros SHOULD BE stronger when the going gets tough. Not the case. Once the game gets tough and hardcore (high end fractual, wvw) necro under performs or disappears. What does that tell us about necro’s ACTUAL skill ceiling? Actual, not theoretical.
I had said this before. But necro’s solo defensive ability is having more health than other classes. Necro got no damage avoidance whatsoever. And you cannot learn to use your health better. When placed in high end fractuals, where every mob has super high damage, necro got no chance.
The game changer for necros, DS, is clearly not good enough. It requires at least major improvements, or a major overhaul.
Necromancers outlast fine, we do not survive burst damage well, we also lack burst damage. That is our problem in high end PvE, the bosses all do huge burst damage we can’t avoid easily, and we can’t do high burst damage to end fights quickly. It is the inherit shortcomings of an attrition based class with our defensive set.
WvW is a completely different issue. If you play correctly, you will never die in WvW as a necro. It is the same style you use if you are WvWing on a low level character (I often WvW on characters below level 10), you use high range weapons, stay in the back, and use supportive AoE mindset. Again, the reason we die easily here is due to huge burst damage.
In PvP however, necros are the absolute kinds of outlasting. I have had multiple 1v1 fights against what are considered the “best” bunker builds in the game, where the match never finished because the game ran out of time. D/D bunker eles and bunker guardians, with tons of boons and healing, cannot outlast necromancers.
Necromancers being a class of attrition, need to be weak to burst. If we are stronger the longer a fight goes, then obviously our counterplay will be ending the fight quickly (aka bursting). No change to DS will do this without completely overpowering us.
So you agree with me that the necro is weak in high level fractal and wvw because of blast damage. But yet you disagree that necro needs a fix? How did you conclude this?
The only reason why someone would pick a “harder to learn” class is if the class gets “stronger” as the fight gets “tougher”. If there are “easier to learn” classes that also does “tougher” stuff better, why in the world would anyone play the “harder to learn” class?
That my friend, is imbalance.
An attrition class doesn’t mean it is weak to blast. Attrition class means it is designed to outlast. It is designed to survive longer than the enemy. Whatever the enemy throws at it, DoT or blast, the necro should have counter against them. When there are other classes that can outlast a necro in high end fractual and wvw, then necro is no longer an attrition class. So all of that theory goes out the window.
1v1 is not what the game should be balanced around. Very few people plays 1v1 and sPvP. On the other hand a lot of people plays dungeons and WvW.
All I can say that I am happy that people like the OP are not designing this game – or any game (for reasons outlined by multiple posters in this thread).
P.S. Is there such a thing as Mary Sue of game design?
(edited by green plum.7514)
All I can say that I am happy that people like the OP are not designing this game – or any game (for reasons outlined by multiple posters in this thread).
P.S. Is there such a thing as Mary Sue of game design?
Your Mary Sue will lose all her LF and die pretty quick if she start randomly spamming LF skills. Once the LF runs out the necro do not have any damage avoidance or escape abilities.
“Oh so she got to time her skills carefully to use them at the correct situation? But then she aren’t Mary Sue any more!”
Exactly.
Necro being an attrition class should have a counter against each situation. But those skills are highly expensive (20% LF) that they must be used carefully.
(edited by CHIPS.6018)
And in your scheme we get access to those abilities at the cost of an entire extra health bar that is pretty easily refilled? Yeah, no.
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