(edited by sorrow.2364)
Ideas to improve the Blood Magic traitline
I don’t know about Soul Feast. Necros would be OP in situations where LF can be shot up to full, like in Zerg fights and mass mob fights.
I don’t know about Soul Feast. Necros would be OP in situations where LF can be shot up to full, like in Zerg fights and mass mob fights.
With 1000 healing power, the healing is about 500 per dying entity (not including minions, phantasms, pets and all the AI entity that does not generate Life Force). It is less than half the healing of Parastic Bond.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
I don’t know about Soul Feast. Necros would be OP in situations where LF can be shot up to full, like in Zerg fights and mass mob fights.
With 1000 healing power, the healing is about 500 per dying entity (not including minions, phantasms, pets and all the AI entity that does not generate Life Force). It is less than half the healing of Parastic Bond.
What would the numbers look like for spectral walk, spectral armor etc
What would the numbers look like for spectral walk, spectral armor etc
With 1500 healing power, which is pretty much a cap, you get healed for 225hp each time you get hit under spectral effects.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
Dont change current vampiric master, ok maybe add that the minions heal themself for the same amount, but in general it does its job well (only of the vamp traits that does actually, how funny thakittens tied to kitten ed minions).
Also about the grandmaster traits, i got a few of my ideas:
Aura of the Vampire – Each time you siphon health, nearby allies (600 range) are healed for 50% of the amount
Inscriptions of Pain – Well duration is increased to 10 seconds and apply 1 second of retaliation pre pulse.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Changing traits around is one thing but to me the issue still lies with Healing power.
Vampiric builds tend to be power based which means we already have tools available in terms of Healing:
-Death into Life, 5% if power converted to healing (2400 power, 120 healing)
-Blood Magic Line, healing power stat bonus (50-300)
So my build (30/20/0/20/0) has at minimum 320 healing ready to go meanwhile Vampiric, Vampiric Precision, Vampiric Rituals, and Vampiric Master are not affected. This puts us in a weird spot where we have to decide whether or not to drop a Life Stealing trait or go all in. Allowing Healing Power to do the job would give us more options to decide whether we are getting Vampiric from gear/stats or trait bonuses. This will allow more build versatility.
Dont change current vampiric master, ok maybe add that the minions heal themself for the same amount, but in general it does its job well (only of the vamp traits that does actually, how funny thakittens tied to kitten ed minions).
Also about the grandmaster traits, i got a few of my ideas:
Aura of the Vampire – Each time you siphon health, nearby allies (600 range) are healed for 50% of the amount
Inscriptions of Pain – Well duration is increased to 10 seconds and apply 1 second of retaliation pre pulse.
I’ve just added the extra healing on death to make that trait worthy even when you want to sacrifice your minions.
About your grandmaster traits, here’s my thoughts:
- The first one won’t be that useful. Health siphoning is still extremely low, 50% of it is too low to be a grandmaster trait.
- The second one is just too strong. 15s WoP and WoD are just… well, insane.
Changing traits around is one thing but to me the issue still lies with Healing power.
Vampiric builds tend to be power based which means we already have tools available in terms of Healing:
-Death into Life, 5% if power converted to healing (2400 power, 120 healing)
-Blood Magic Line, healing power stat bonus (50-300)So my build (30/20/0/20/0) has at minimum 320 healing ready to go meanwhile Vampiric, Vampiric Precision, Vampiric Rituals, and Vampiric Master are not affected. This puts us in a weird spot where we have to decide whether or not to drop a Life Stealing trait or go all in. Allowing Healing Power to do the job would give us more options to decide whether we are getting Vampiric from gear/stats or trait bonuses. This will allow more build versatility.
That’s why I tried to add more traits which scales with Healing Power.
Also, I think that Blood Magic and Soul Reaping just have no synergy at all, because you can’t be healed, nor siphon health when you’re in death shroud. That’s why I think that the Soul Feast trait is a good idea.
I also think that, maybe, the “Vampiric” trait should be a major trait. Minor traits should be something of overall utility.
a) the vampiric trait would still get changed even if any changes go to the blood line itself, it was kitten, it is kitten and will be kitten for quite some time (125 hp being static regen for pretty much every other equivalent it has that doesnt even require hitting stuff/combat), but if you look at alt healing build of a guardian, a dagger necro that could heal for around 100 pre hit in a aoe would cause quite a hp difference over every fight thats bigger than a 2v2 and it would be quite really useful in most dungeons.
b) No its increased to 10 (10 – current duration of well in question = number of seconds the well lasts longer), not increased by 10 (so 5/6/7 depending on well + 10).
WoD is still mostly a annoyance factor, blocking invul and cc are all still better as defensive tools and for WoP, please take a look at contemplation of purity, cleansing flames, purging flames, healing rain, healing spring and fumigate in terms of condi removal and secondary effects.
c) Believe it or not, most minior master traits are actual anchors of a build, if not then the entire line has strong synergy with the grandmaster part (e.g. mesmers 4th shatter on self that entirely changes their scailing and playstyle)
Following most good traitline miniors its: Secondary effect on something that you often do for role the line is in, change in efficiency, damage boost or aplification of strength of the traitline.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
a) the vampiric trait would still get changed even if any changes go to the blood line itself, it was kitten, it is kitten and will be kitten for quite some time (125 hp being static regen for pretty much every other equivalent it has that doesnt even require hitting stuff/combat), but if you look at alt healing build of a guardian, a dagger necro that could heal for around 100 pre hit in a aoe would cause quite a hp difference over every fight thats bigger than a 2v2 and it would be quite really useful in most dungeons.
b) No its increased to 10 (10 – current duration of well in question = number of seconds the well lasts longer), not increased by 10 (so 5/6/7 depending on well + 10).
WoD is still mostly a annoyance factor, blocking invul and cc are all still better as defensive tools and for WoP, please take a look at contemplation of purity, cleansing flames, purging flames, healing rain, healing spring and fumigate in terms of condi removal and secondary effects.c) Believe it or not, most minior master traits are actual anchors of a build, if not then the entire line has strong synergy with the grandmaster part (e.g. mesmers 4th shatter on self that entirely changes their scailing and playstyle)
Following most good traitline miniors its: Secondary effect on something that you often do for role the line is in, change in efficiency, damage boost or aplification of strength of the traitline.
I’ll add your suggestions to the OP.
Though, I’m still skeptic about the well trait.
10s for wells are quite a long time. Considering the retaliation and the low recharge time of WoS, it looks definitely too much.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
How about a trait like:
Ritual of the Lich – gain stability while standing inside a well
This would be pretty powerful but would allow necros to stay ‘in the pocket’ but punish them for chasing someone outside of that circumscribed area
10s for wells are quite a long time. Considering the retaliation and the low recharge time of WoS, it looks definitely too much.
With well Lich bomb, you might be right, but three kinda important things to remember, the necro needs 30 points in blood, a line really not built for damage and there are equivalents of other traits that are stronger on master trait status (cough mesmer, ele, ranger). Maybe just making wells proc rituals of protection pre pulse instead AND last, but also the most important one, for wells to do stuff, you need to stand in them, for how hectic pvp is it would be rare to see a good well bomb go off, its like a 20+ bleed epidemic on 3+ people, seems bloody overpowered, but with how rare it is… meh.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
The vampiric master seems really strong. I regularly run Cleric, with 1200 healing power, meaning it would be healing for about 1.3k per death. So Bone Minions are not only dealing 4-5k damage, plus poison and weakness, but also healing me and nearby minions for 2.7k every 20 seconds (or 16 traited). That is a lot of added power into an already tanky build with tons of healing.
The vampiric master seems really strong. I regularly run Cleric, with 1200 healing power, meaning it would be healing for about 1.3k per death. So Bone Minions are not only dealing 4-5k damage, plus poison and weakness, but also healing me and nearby minions for 2.7k every 20 seconds (or 16 traited). That is a lot of added power into an already tanky build with tons of healing.
I think that Vampiric Master is the best trait among the ones I’ve suggested.
Yes, it is strong, I know that you may be not used to work with strong traits (:P), but it is far from too strong.
Why?
1) If you are sacrificing your minions, they aren’t providing you the constant 100hp of healing.
2) It is a natural counter to AoE wiping all the minions. Each time a minions die, all the nearby minions are healed, that means that they won’t just implode against any AoE.
3) It covers the inner lacking of burst healing of Necromancers, which makes them unviable covering a defensive role.
Also, I won’t say that minionmaster are a tanky build with tons of healing. The small, constant healing you are taking as a minionmaster won’t help you at all into surviving and that is proved by the complete lack of minionmasters as bunkers in tPvP.
How many traits have you spent to get the combo you’ve mentioned?
I count 3 traits involved and at least 50 traitpoints already spent.
Considering the amount of traitpoints you spent into the defensive traitlines, you are supposed to last at least as much as a 0/0/0/20/30 elementalist.
(edited by sorrow.2364)
1) Bone Minions aren’t ever used for the healing on hit. You might keep them alive for a while, but Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, and Flesh Wurm are all still giving HP/s while Bone Minions provide the AoE
2) I am not against the idea of them healing on death, I would suggest it work like Death Nova’s damage though, not triggering on sacrifice.
3) This isn’t burst healing either…?
1) Bone Minions aren’t ever used for the healing on hit. You might keep them alive for a while, but Flesh Golem, Bone Fiend, and Flesh Wurm are all still giving HP/s while Bone Minions provide the AoE
2) I am not against the idea of them healing on death, I would suggest it work like Death Nova’s damage though, not triggering on sacrifice.
3) This isn’t burst healing either…?
1) Bone Minions give some sweet extra health. They are two and they attack once every 3.5 second (according to Google), which is equivalent to 100 health each ~1.7s, which is exactly the attack speed of Shadow Fiend, so not bad at all.
2) I specifically wanted to make the Master trait of blood magic to work as burst healing traits. Deathly Invigoration, Transfusion and Vampiric Master are all burst heals. If you make it works like Death Nova’s damage, it will ends just like Death Nova damage: random and uncontrolled. This is something I want to avoid, to be honest.
3) Yep, it is. If you sacrifice both the Bone Minions and eventually the Flesh Wurm, you’re healed for 3k+, which is kinda bursty.
You cannot add too much healing. Necromancer does not have issues when taking moderate amounts of damage. The problem is a combination of spike damage, no escape except for Flesh Wurm, and the notoriety the profession has as easy prey.
All I want is a master-level minor passive in Blood Magic that boosts healing rate based on incoming dps just enough to toughen the profession, something like healing skill CD % reduction based on level of damage taken since the healing skill went in CD. It would only kick in under spike damage or focused fire and only improve the chance of getting a second heal if you have enough skill and luck to survive.
Arenanet needs to work on making tank builds viable as tanks and not just as impotent targets. I understand Necromancer is not a group support job like Guardian, instead focusing on crowd condition control. However, improving heal for allies recieving WoB is something else to look at. Necromancer is pretty good at self-healing but poor at healing allies. There has to be some reward to the rest of the group for accepting a bunker Necro.
Outside of that, a grandmaster minion trait in BM to have minions leach when they die instead of blow up would be nice.
I like the idea of a Masochism mechanic that tracks incoming dps and boosts healing based on a formula or tiered approach. It may have some functional similarities to Warrior’s adrenaline.
(edited by Anchoku.8142)
Or we could do something simpler and have healing power affect the life steal traits and talents in the blood trait line?
Dr. Professor Evil – Engi
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
Stunned Girls Can’t Say No <Hawt>
I don’t think Blood magic is that bad but compared to curses and Soul reaping does come off as lacking and while I don’t think redoing the whole line is necessary there are things we can do to improve it overall. Firstly I think bloodthirst needs a boost and vampiric precision needs to be droped or merged into something else (why use it when you can get the effect out of a sigil and every attack siphons anyway). I would really love to see more vampire builds but unless you go all in (like the abomination build and even then its a tad lacking) Your better off going for more regen. What also needs to happen is that you can siphon health while in deathshroud if you trait it right.
Anyway I’ll take a stab
Improved Traits
Bloodthirst: Siphoning is 50% better and 2.5% of healing also becomes Siphoning. Life blast now siphons health
Transfusion: Life Transfer siphons health for both you and your allies
Dagger mastery: Merged with Quickening thirst
Vamperic Gluttony: (replaces vampiric precision and move to grandmaster) If your lifeforce is full lifeforce gain instead becomes Becomes siphoning. I.E 4% lifeforce gain would instead become 4% of damage siphons health
Overall those are the changes I would like to see. and doing even 2 of them would see vampuric builds improve greatly. Also Dagger mastery and Transfusion improvements aren’t actually my ideas lol Im just seconding them XD
Anyway I’ll take a stab
Improved Traits
Bloodthirst: Siphoning is 50% better and 2.5% of healing also becomes Siphoning. Life blast now siphons healthTransfusion: Life Transfer siphons health for both you and your allies
Dagger mastery: Merged with Quickening thirst
Vamperic Gluttony: (replaces vampiric precision and move to grandmaster) If your lifeforce is full lifeforce gain instead becomes Becomes siphoning. I.E 4% lifeforce gain would instead become 4% of damage siphons health
Overall those are the changes I would like to see. and doing even 2 of them would see vampuric builds improve greatly. Also Dagger mastery and Transfusion improvements aren’t actually my ideas lol Im just seconding them XD
I agree about all of them, but I also add >>>
Vampiric master : minions siphone health to them selves and to their master on each hit.
And a fix > Flesh Golem learns how to swim / Blood Fiend and Bone Minions get health regen as the others.
All 80es > MM necro is my best ,cleric
guard ,nades eng ,Trap thief \ranger ,signet\shout warrior, zerk mes\ele & shiro rev.
guard ,nades eng ,Trap thief \ranger ,signet\shout warrior, zerk mes\ele & shiro rev.
(edited by The Demonic Spirit.3157)
I like the concepts. I’ve been quietly lamenting for the past few days that the blood line isn’t as vampiric and sustaining as it should be. I really like the Soul Feast trait idea, would synergize really well with dagger and staff.
What are you willing to sacrifice?
I think anyone agrees that the Blood Magic traitline has not so many traits worth picking and it is definitely underpar compared other traitlines.
It doesn’t offer the sustainability Necromancer needs and it has some serious synergy issues with other traitline (like Soul Reaping, since you can’t heal while in Death Shroud).
I also think that the concept of Vampiric Necromancer is not implemented adequately. I’ve never felt to siphon significant health to my enemies to really make me feel the health siphoning as a real worthwhile mechanic.
So, I want to sum up some ideas I have to put the Blood Magic traitline on par with the others in order to make Blood Magic really something to consider when distributing your trait points.
Full of Life (Adept Minor):
_When you take damage greater than 10% of your maximum health in a single strike, your next attack siphon health. (10s cooldown)
Healing formula: 0.2 (0.3 with Bloodthirst) * Healing Power + 175 (350 with Bloodthirst).
Damage formula: Life steal: 0.033 * Power + 175 (350 with Bloodthirst).Dagger Mastery (Adept Major)
Dagger skills recharge 20% faster. Move 15% faster while wielding a main hand dagger, move 10% faster while wielding an offhand dagger.
(Merged with Quickening Thirst)Vampiric Precision (Adept Major)
Same as it is. Increased the amount of health gained to 100 base and 200 with Bloodthirst. Damage remains untouched.Vampiric Master (Master Major)
Add the following effect:
Whenever a minion dies, you and nearby allies are healed
Healing formula: 0.5 * Healing Power + 750Deathly Invigoration (Master Major)
Changed the healing formula to: 525 + 0.7 * Healing PowerNew trait: Soul Feast: (Grandmaster Major)
Whenever you gain Life Force, you also gain health.
Healing formula: 0.1 * Healing Power * (0.5 * Life Force percentage)Transfusion (Master Major)
Now also heals the caster while in Death ShroudFetid Consumption
Moved to the Death Magic traitline (probably merged with Necromantic Corruption).New trait: Vampiric Marks (Grandmaster Major)
Marks siphon health and transfer it to you and allies within their radius.
Healing formula: 0.07 (0.1 with Bloodthirst) * Healing Power + 25 (for each enemy affected, up to 5)
Damage formula: 0.15 * Power + 25Vampiric Rituals (Master Major)
Moved to Master MajorBlood to Power (Grandmaster Minor)
Deal 15% more damage when your health is above 90%
Ideas by Andele:
Aura of the Vampire
Each time you siphon health, nearby allies (600 range) are healed for 50% of the amount
Inscriptions of Pain
Well duration is increased to 10 seconds and apply 1 second of retaliation per pulse.Also:
Life Siphon (Dagger #2 skill)
Reduced the casting time to 2+1/2s.Any ideas, suggestion or constructive feedback?
one question
for “Move 15% faster while wielding a main hand dagger, move 10% faster while wielding an offhand dagger.”
if I am wielding both main hand dagger and offhand dagger, am i moving 25% faster?
Most of those still look pretty underpowered, although deathly invigoration would be really strong.
As an example, dagger autochain is our fastest rate of attack and lf generation, but with 1000 healing, 50% crit, vampiric precision, bloodthirst, and soul feast, i.e fully specced to take advantage of it, 100% melee uptime, no blinds, blocks, evades etc, it would heal for about as much as regeneration.
Healing signet alone would outdo it significantly. In fact it would be almost on par with it even if you were using consume on recharge.
Selfless daring would also outdo it, assuming vigor or sigils of energy. You would need both in pvp, but having both is typical for a pvp guard.
If you fully spec and gear for max healing, I’d expect a better payoff than a guard minor or a single warrior skill, especially since you need multiple stats to make it work, as opposed to one stat for the guard (plus two sigils) and zero for the warrior. Especially since that combination of stats doesn’t even come on a pvp amulet, you have to work to make it work, and it’s easily preventable, unlike the other two.
If you’re not playing to win, don’t complain when you lose.
(edited by Mammoth.1975)
I like the Idea of having defensive and active life siphon skills. I think the minor traits should be balanced to go with either spec.
- Adept Trait: Vampiric – Siphon health whenever you hit a foe.
- Master Trait: Full of life – Healing and siphon effects are increased based on missing life (0,5% increase for each 1% of life lost, so at 50% health, siphons and heal are 25% more effective, would also affect runes and sigils)
- Grandmaster Trait: Blood to Power – Siphon health from target if you take more then 10% of your current life from a single strike. 2 Sec internal cooldown
These 3 have great synergy and are the backbone of the trait line – no matter what build, you will always hit and will be hit.
Additional: Quickening should be improved to :
- #1 necrotic bite siphons health
- #2 becomes a tether spell
- #3 while rooted the siphons are stronger
Some more brainstorming ideas:
- a trait that siphons life for every stack of a condition that is applied. Guardians have the same for boons, so i think it is okay for conditions, maybe as a grandmaster trait, but i guess this fits the attrition theme nice.
- Leeching signets. Either
1# gain passive heal for each unused signet
2# gain additional lifesiphon on hit per unused signet
3# signets siphon life upon activation
- Grandmaster trait Aura of the vampire
Siphon 30 health from each target in a 210 radius each second while in combat. Possible of 150 passive healing/sec, i think thats balanced for a grandmaster trait.
First, I would like to say that I actually like Blood Magic overall. Vitality and Healing Power don’t have synergy with each other but they make sense for the trait line and they both contribute to durability.
All three minor traits are useful to any Necro build. Regen is a good boon, every Necro hits things a lot so Vampiric (in theory) can give really good sustain, and Blood to Power is better than comparable traits from other professions because DS can be used to cover your health and extend its active time. (Note: the Wiki says this trait is badly bugged and acts almost nothing like its description.)
The effects from the major traits are all actually really cool too. Going down the list, I don’t see a single trait that looks kinda useless from the description. I could see any of them being taken by various builds.
Where Blood Magic falls short is in its overal antisynergy with Death Shroud, its depressing numbers, and its excessive number of traits.
1) Anet seriously needs to give healing through DS another try. I understand that Necros were using it to become unkillable monsters in the beta, but life siphoning and Regen effects totally shutting down while DS is up is counter-intuitive and ridiculous. Dropping your Wells, dodge-rolling for some Regen, and then popping into DS to give yourself some time to heal would be a great way for Necros to deal with our lack of Vigor and invulnerability moves, but nope, doesn’t work. I’d be willing to see DS get some restructuring to get healing to work through it with at least some level of efficiency, just so you aren’t punished hard for doing what makes sense. Transfusion is another example of trait asymmetry with DS.
2) Almost all the numbers used in Blood Magic are way too small. Full of Life is cool in theory, but would be better on a 20 second cooldown or if it gave 10 seconds of Regen. Deathly Invigoration could be an awesome trait except its numbers are incredibly awful (compare it to the Ele’s heal on attuning to water or the Guardian’s heal on dodge and you’ll see just HOW awful). Vampiric is just tiny, though Vampiric Precision takes the cake for “worst trait that should be awesome.” It’s just plain weird that most life siphoning effects don’t scale with Healing Power.
Personally, I’d like to see all life siphoning numbers raised dramatically and given some Healing Power scaling (not so much that stacking Healing Power would make you unkillable but not so weak that fitting some Healing Power into your build would be a noob trap), but then give every Life Siphoning effect an internal cooldown of 1 second per target. This way, Anet could calibrate it so that a D/WH Necro couldn’t drop four wells, pop 5 and 2, and become completely unkillable in a duel, but at the same time he could potentially get enough healing in group situations to 1vX if he outplays his opponents.
3) Why are there two traits for improving daggers? Daggers are great but collapsing the two into one trait would probably be fine. It’s also weird to have both Bloodthirst and Vampiric Precision exist; there’s no interesting choice between the two, it’s just a matter of mathing out which gives your build more healing. There are a lot of interesting suggestions for traits given in this thread and cleaning up the existing lot would really open up some room for their addition.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
Don’t nerf my build please.
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I think it would be nice to have a major trait that applied a percentage of your siphons as heals to nearby allies. It would let the support necro provide a constant stream of health to his allies in combat and would have a number of controls on it for balancing (initial siphon strength, percentage of heal, range of heal).