Guild Wars 2

Im play as conditionmancer.
I never ever killed someone I never ever was OP.
Im very weak and easy target.
I do not understant why get nerfed every patch.

I suppose that ANet don’t want us to play mostly in conditions. Just look at the trait “Target the weak”. All of the classes need to go in damage and the thing that they heal, apply conditions or have CC is just an addition, because, let’s say those are attributes of the classes. AoE stun? Roll for a warrior and take a hammer. Curses? Go for the necro, but everytime make damage
The healing and conditions are additional

I was a necro, too. Then i took a nerf on the knee.

Now i’m engi. Then i took a necro on the knee.

Life makes more sense now.

You people are hilarious – there are so many good and viable Necro builds out there that simply rock. A lot depends upon how one plays their Necro that makes them allegedly ‘weak’ or feel ‘nerfed’, IMHO.

Rigel , tell that to the thief that 2 shot me through 100% LF DS (30 Soul Reaping so bigger LF pool) and then 1 shot to downed state from full 21k health (roughly lol) you tell me which one is OP and which one is UP in that situation (gear consists of Berserker / Soldier Mixed Gear , i dont expect to live too long but even then thats ridiculous by ALOT)

I am sorry to hear that. To be perfectly honest, I have no problems with thieves downing me in two shots, but then again, I run a PVT Power tank build (0/0/30/30/10) with full stack of bloodlust = near 2700 power coupled with over 2K toughness and near 3K armor. Granted I mainly run this in groups, but when transiting solo to get with group and a thief jumps me, once I drop into plague, they bail pretty quickly.

Enundr.9305:

Rigel , tell that to the thief that 2 shot me through 100% LF DS (30 Soul Reaping so bigger LF pool) and then 1 shot to downed state from full 21k health (roughly lol) you tell me which one is OP and which one is UP in that situation (gear consists of Berserker / Soldier Mixed Gear , i dont expect to live too long but even then thats ridiculous by ALOT)

As they say on the interwebs, pics or it didn’t happen.

Rigel.3092:

I am sorry to hear that. To be perfectly honest, I have no problems with thieves downing me in two shots, but then again, I run a PVT Power tank build (0/0/30/30/10) with full stack of bloodlust = near 2700 power coupled with over 2K toughness and near 3K armor. Granted I mainly run this in groups, but when transiting solo to get with group and a thief jumps me, once I drop into plague, they bail pretty quickly.

maybe you dont have a problem with thief 2 shotting you , but can you name any other class that can do so and keep constant disengages (aka stealth spam) ? ;-) thief has every definition of over powered with that.

Thieves are actually quite balanced. They have low access to stunbreaks so they have to prevent getting CC’ed in the first place.

What need to be changed about thieves is:
- BP + HS shouldn’t allow stealth stacking.
- Damage needs to be toned down a bit.

/edit: Yes, i’m playing thief atm (but P/D condi).

Not to say necro are weak, but 2 shotting DS can and does happen in realistic scenarios (this is zerker+traits only unbuffed/amped Backstab on heavy golem).

Agreed, Andele. Getting 2-shotted, or even 1-shotted out of DS is pretty common.

Prothorin, remember that if you get knocked out of DS, the perp has just used a valuable skill and you just negated it. That is supposed to give you an advantage, all things being equal. :-p Build up your LF quick while unloading on the thief and prepare to go back into DS. Many other professions can go from 90% HP to 10% fast once their burst skills, heals and condi-cleanse are used up. Arenanet generally does a decent job at balancing dps with risk. (Think that is as far as I will take that statement, though. I have… disagreements with the direction they have been taking the profession but that is a very old story that goes back before the dawn of… Fire?!)

Andele.1306:

Not to say necro are weak, but 2 shotting DS can and does happen in realistic scenarios (this is zerker+traits only unbuffed/amped Backstab on heavy golem).

That wouldn’t have even downed me without DS, including both backstabs and mug (3 hits), which supposedly did him, through 21k HP + DS.

I haven’t been 2 shot by a thief as a necro since mug could crit, and I was running a glass build for lulz. If you are running glass, guess what, that is the price you and every other glass build pays for running glass. If you aren’t glass that shouldn’t be downing you immediately, and certainly not through DS.

However, I realize that thief damage is way higher in WvW, but you should never go through all your DS and HP in a single thief combo. Pics or it didn’t happen, because I’m tired of “warrior does 500k DPS heer teh mathz”.

a thief can not, i repeat, CAN NOT 2 shot a full hp necro with ready access to DS. the only thing required by the necro is a brain. even if the thief is full glass it will not happen.
i would LOVE to see a video or even a picture with the combat report showing you (necro) getting 2 shot from full hp with full DS.

lol sadly Bhawb it was the only thief ive seen manage to pull that off , it was quite literal BS to 1 shot a full LF pool DS (30 soul reaping) , if i spent every waking moment Screenshotting everything id show ya , but as much as ppl like to deny it , servers do have logs , they can look at those logs if they took the time.

btw Bhawb , thief has been complained about since beta , not warrior though i msure there are a FEW that complain about them , theif has insane dmg + survivability (aka stealth spam to disengage) , hence why thief gets complained about the most , not warrior.

Bhawb.7408:

Andele.1306:

Not to say necro are weak, but 2 shotting DS can and does happen in realistic scenarios (this is zerker+traits only unbuffed/amped Backstab on heavy golem).

That wouldn’t have even downed me without DS, including both backstabs and mug (3 hits), which supposedly did him, through 21k HP + DS.

I haven’t been 2 shot by a thief as a necro since mug could crit, and I was running a glass build for lulz. If you are running glass, guess what, that is the price you and every other glass build pays for running glass. If you aren’t glass that shouldn’t be downing you immediately, and certainly not through DS.

However, I realize that thief damage is way higher in WvW, but you should never go through all your DS and HP in a single thief combo. Pics or it didn’t happen, because I’m tired of “warrior does 500k DPS heer teh mathz”.

also i counter your statement with “pics or it didnt happen” about thief dmg vs you , theres alot of complaints about thief dmg , and more and more i see it showing as legit complaints , more so cause of their survivability with stealth spam , yes they can still spam stealth as much as you prob want to say they cant.

Enundr.9305:

also i counter your statement with “pics or it didnt happen” about thief dmg vs you , theres alot of complaints about thief dmg , and more and more i see it showing as legit complaints , more so cause of their survivability with stealth spam , yes they can still spam stealth as much as you prob want to say they cant.

A lot of people who play this game are whiny babies who hate losing. That doesn’t give you a pass to make up ridiculous numbers and expect us not to call you on it.

I’m not trying to make the point that thieves are OP. Just looking at your HP it makes no sense to how a thief 3 shot you through over 30k HP including DS.

Scepter/Dagger + Axe/Dagger combo – blood is power, sig of spite and plaque sig + F.Golem

30/20/0/10/0

Great condition damage + axe gets empowered from conditions.. Boom.

good night.

¬.¬

Bhawb.7408:

I’m not trying to make the point that thieves are OP. Just looking at your HP it makes no sense to how a thief 3 shot you through over 30k HP including DS.

what do you think i thought when it happened? the first thief ive ever seen do that (and no 2 shot , 1 shot took out the DS (yes i know how ridiculous that sounds but unless he hit FASTER then i could see then it was 1) , 2nd shot downed me somehow from full health (21k) wish i thought of SSing it but that was the first time ive EVER seen a thief do that , the rest run Stealth Spam builds with incredible survivability and pretty good dmg from backstab)

Blaine Tog.8304:

Enundr.9305:

also i counter your statement with “pics or it didnt happen” about thief dmg vs you , theres alot of complaints about thief dmg , and more and more i see it showing as legit complaints , more so cause of their survivability with stealth spam , yes they can still spam stealth as much as you prob want to say they cant.

A lot of people who play this game are whiny babies who hate losing. That doesn’t give you a pass to make up ridiculous numbers and expect us not to call you on it.

its a fair response for anyone that gives that general response as well , you want your side to sound anymore valid then you SS it as well , otherwise your just here spewing crap like the rest of us , and as i said this was the first one ive seen do it. but please go back under your rock sir.

Edit: in your case we get further laughs cause you go straight to calling everyone whiny babies …..lol and you expect to be taken anywhere remotely seriously? XD

Enundr.9305:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Enundr.9305:

also i counter your statement with “pics or it didnt happen” about thief dmg vs you , theres alot of complaints about thief dmg , and more and more i see it showing as legit complaints , more so cause of their survivability with stealth spam , yes they can still spam stealth as much as you prob want to say they cant.

A lot of people who play this game are whiny babies who hate losing. That doesn’t give you a pass to make up ridiculous numbers and expect us not to call you on it.

its a fair response for anyone that gives that general response as well , you want your side to sound anymore valid then you SS it as well , otherwise your just here spewing crap like the rest of us , and as i said this was the first one ive seen do it. but please go back under your rock sir.

Edit: in your case we get further laughs cause you go straight to calling everyone whiny babies …..lol and you expect to be taken anywhere remotely seriously? XD

My point was simple: just because people complain about something doesn’t mean every single thing someone says when complaining about that thing is true. If there’s a coffee shop that has terrible coffee and I claim that I was once literally served a cup of battery acid and antifreeze, that’s not enough to convict the barista of attempted murder. I need the cup or something.

So I could claim that I was playing with full PVT gear with 30 in Death and Blood and got one shot by a Thief even though I had 0 Vuln stacks and he had 0 Might, but you are not obligated to believe me just because other people complain about thief damage.

You were somehow 2 shot through both full DS and full HP? It didn’t happen, I don’t need pics to know that. He might have macro’d you, you might have accidently popped out of DS, but I don’t believe for a second that he two shot you through 33k+ eHP. It is entirely possible that a thief did some super combo and it did a lot of damage, that I perfectly understand as it has happened to me before, but lets just drop the pretense and all agree that it was more than two hits.

1 shot thru 30 points in sr ds with soldiers gear and ~90% LF I readily believe in wvw. Been there. Can’t instantly do that again tho. Would take a bit before next wtf you are dead card out of thiefs kitten .
Anyway thief class is broken in this game and it has nothing to do with damage.
NOBODY. EVER. Should be able to reset/undetectable invis with spamable capabilities. That is not stealth its bullkitten. No matter how fragile/weak against “insert anything here” that has no kittening place, ever in any mmo that claims to be at average level. In esport? While I couldn’t care less for that ego fest, even more true then normally.
And again has nothing to do with kittened damage.

Bhawb.7408:

You were somehow 2 shot through both full DS and full HP? It didn’t happen, I don’t need pics to know that. He might have macro’d you, you might have accidently popped out of DS, but I don’t believe for a second that he two shot you through 33k+ eHP. It is entirely possible that a thief did some super combo and it did a lot of damage, that I perfectly understand as it has happened to me before, but lets just drop the pretense and all agree that it was more than two hits.

Well if we assume optimal conditions (25 might, fury, best burst traits – if i might add that i dont know since my thief is mostly for trolling in pvp and pve farm, 25 bloodlust, scholar or thief runes, maxed gear/ascended since it is wvwvw, force sigil on weapon and Suash soup/Sharpening stone for consumables), in comparison base armor stats that a amulet in pvp can provide a 7.7k hit could turn into a nice 21~25k hit on someone without any build defensive stats. A necromancer, if we take currently known facts about the necro, would have around 40k to 41k, so it would be possible to, under a vacuum/in optimal conditions for a thief to 2 shot a necromancer or any profession if they dont build any defensive stats, but that also raises 2 questions, why/how did you let a fully buffed theif get on you and why didnt you have soldier/kngiht/any kind of statistical defensive buffs.

Little side notes both rabid and carrion wearers cannot be killed even in 3 backstabs if from 100% LF and 100% hp.

P.S. HiSaZuL you drunk go home, or even better if you are just angry go home then get drunk with blackjack and hookers, a lot of better necro players seem to have the obsession with rage when a thief is mentioned and how cheap they are and i do kinda understand it (a lot actually), but it doesnt help the topic at hand.

Wonder which one of us is angry/drunk but what ever makes your happy.

Really, I just feel that Hide in Shadows is broken rather than the entire thief class, since it is really the whole reason they can stealth and come out with full health.

Bhawb.7408:

You were somehow 2 shot through both full DS and full HP? It didn’t happen, I don’t need pics to know that. He might have macro’d you, you might have accidently popped out of DS, but I don’t believe for a second that he two shot you through 33k+ eHP. It is entirely possible that a thief did some super combo and it did a lot of damage, that I perfectly understand as it has happened to me before, but lets just drop the pretense and all agree that it was more than two hits.

he destroyed my DS , but it was 2 shot or it was done faster then my eyes could register beyond 2 attacks….shame i didnt think to look at the log , our Garrison was sorta under siege by JQ XD

I’m thinking it was possibly a macro, there are plenty of thieves that use them, and it does insane damage; and would make complete sense if your DS got “one shot” by a macro which does things in a second.

Enundr.9305:

Rigel , tell that to the thief that 2 shot me through 100% LF DS (30 Soul Reaping so bigger LF pool) and then 1 shot to downed state from full 21k health (roughly lol) you tell me which one is OP and which one is UP in that situation (gear consists of Berserker / Soldier Mixed Gear , i dont expect to live too long but even then thats ridiculous by ALOT)

And now you post a combat log screenshot or gtfo.

Weakest? Necro is so powerful I have started running one myself. I simply don’t understand this thread.

Let’s face it, thief damage needs to be revised, or some classes need anti-stealth properties. For example for necros, a trait that makes your wells spot stealthed enemies would be amazing.

I have never understood the logic of a class that can spam stealth, go out of combat, and come back to troll you at any given time with 5k-7k ( i have seen 9ks when i walk with zerker ) HS or BS hits.

It may look balanced but it’s just extreme. Face it, thieves are op and they are actually breaking the balance in game. Initiative system is the only system that doesn’t punish players for using a skill at the wrong time because it has no cooldowns.

Every class is getting buffs that reduces TTK ( Time to Kill ) just to be able to match the TTK of a thief, or stuns to withstand its damage. This results in shortened combat, less teamplay, less chance to use the factor of “skill”, more chance of using same rotations all over again. Power creep is already out there.

That is why, current meta is the worst.

You still get hit by AoE damage while in Stealth so in a way Wells do help with stealth if you stand in them. I just started playing my Necro in PvP but as soon as I see a Thief stealth I instantly put a few marks on the ground and stand in them. Not saying that a Thiefs damage really is crazy just commenting on your stealth detection I really think Necro has the best skills to do that.

the issue is , stealth itselfi s the real OP thing thieves have , dmg does not break it (ie if you still have bleeds on it your still completely invisible) , most games of all genres that have stealth , apply this rule , it prevents them from being OP as hell , that is why thief keeps getting looked at as OP , they have no worries about risk as they can just spam stealth and get away even if they still have a bleed / poison on them. this is pretty much a golden rule for stealth and its pretty much been broken in this game , hence all the real hate for thief , it gives them high survivability (disengages that is) , and pretty high dmg too. Stealth needs to have that rule applied , take dmg and stealth breaks.

Hexxen.7216:

You still get hit by AoE damage while in Stealth so in a way Wells do help with stealth if you stand in them. I just started playing my Necro in PvP but as soon as I see a Thief stealth I instantly put a few marks on the ground and stand in them. Not saying that a Thiefs damage really is crazy just commenting on your stealth detection I really think Necro has the best skills to do that.

great theory , but others have said before me , a thief will just dodge through them and not trigger them , and still get you in the middle of your marks , ive had this happen before , ALOT , and its annoying. they can get in without triggering them and get enough hits on you to leave you hurting. wells , sure they cant really dodge , but they dont exactly last as long and can be waited out. it also doesnt break stealth if they get hit by it.

Enundr.9305:

the issue is , stealth itselfi s the real OP thing thieves have , dmg does not break it (ie if you still have bleeds on it your still completely invisible) , most games of all genres that have stealth , apply this rule , it prevents them from being OP as hell , that is why thief keeps getting looked at as OP , they have no worries about risk as they can just spam stealth and get away even if they still have a bleed / poison on them. this is pretty much a golden rule for stealth and its pretty much been broken in this game , hence all the real hate for thief , it gives them high survivability (disengages that is) , and pretty high dmg too. Stealth needs to have that rule applied , take dmg and stealth breaks.

Well then that would make stealth pointless versus a necro. Pretty close to pointless versus a Thief or a Mesmer or a Ranger. Close but less so for Ele and War. That would simply break stealth totally. Might as well remove it if that was the case.

Hexxen.7216:

Enundr.9305:

the issue is , stealth itselfi s the real OP thing thieves have , dmg does not break it (ie if you still have bleeds on it your still completely invisible) , most games of all genres that have stealth , apply this rule , it prevents them from being OP as hell , that is why thief keeps getting looked at as OP , they have no worries about risk as they can just spam stealth and get away even if they still have a bleed / poison on them. this is pretty much a golden rule for stealth and its pretty much been broken in this game , hence all the real hate for thief , it gives them high survivability (disengages that is) , and pretty high dmg too. Stealth needs to have that rule applied , take dmg and stealth breaks.

Well then that would make stealth pointless versus a necro. Pretty close to pointless versus a Thief or a Mesmer or a Ranger. Close but less so for Ele and War. That would simply break stealth totally. Might as well remove it if that was the case.

yet every other game with dots can manage to pull it off…….

Please list these games that have PvP in them. All genres simply doesn’t count they have to have PvP or some sort of player vs player or the argument doesn’t hold water in the context we are talking. I have played many mmos but this is the first one I have PvPd in so I am curious what other PvP games have this kinda stealth function AS well as having classes that can keep perma 3-4 conditions up at all times.

WoW for starters , as for diff genres there are several shooters with stealth / camo actions (Crysis , Killzone 3) , Defiance (not so much as dots but if theyre getting hit they go full blown visible but can go back into stealth if its duration didnt expire.) . the ones that dont do really go with a stealth function gives thieves high manueverability like teleports and such. I say wow cause lets face it , everyone knows of it at this point and would be quite shocking for someone not to know it , good mmo or not disregarding it still has the mechanics.

I honestly can’t comment on WoW as I only ever played it on a private server of 7 people BUT I also don’t remember a single class that relied on stealth like the Thief does in GW2. Stealth was always a fall back not a fighting utility mechanic.

Also, I am not a thief I have never played thief and don’t plan to. I do however enjoy my Mesmer’s stealth abilities and boon I get for being in stealth and with the lack of viable condition cleansing that the class has our stealth would become worthless.

Rogue on wow = Thief, both use stealth to get a big hit off , or on wows case get some stun locks going , thieves here have evades and stealth , if im not mistaken they have some access to vigor too? sry i dont really play thief either , but if they do then they have access to endurance regen so more evades. much more then a necro has to even come close to surviving. but anyway wows rogue could be lit up by a warlock (dots aka conditions) after using vanish incombat , wouldnt stay stealthed for too long once vanish buff wore off and they were just in normal stealth mode , stealth would break.

What you just mentioned sounds a lot/very close to a “hard counter” which does not equal balance.

Iavra.8510:

Thieves are actually quite balanced. They have low access to stunbreaks so they have to prevent getting CC’ed in the first place.

What need to be changed about thieves is:
- BP + HS shouldn’t allow stealth stacking.
- Damage needs to be toned down a bit.

/edit: Yes, i’m playing thief atm (but P/D condi).

Wut? Thiefs lacking stunbreaks? S/D thieves move around the battlefield like a bunch of butterflies on crack. Stun him and he just shadowsteps away and then instantly re-engages.

I’ve been running a 3 signet instagib build in WvW as a thief, and I guarantee there’s no way to 2 shot a necromancer with full health and DS. The build I’m running is about as glassy as it gets with no stunbreaks and traited for maximum damage, and the best it can do is perhaps 25k burst, but that’s the limit.

More often than not the initial burst isn’t even enough to take down the necromancer without DS, though it’s usually easy enough to finish them off afterward.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Anyway thief class is broken in this game and it has nothing to do with damage.
NOBODY. EVER. Should be able to reset/undetectable invis with spamable capabilities. That is not stealth its bullkitten. No matter how fragile/weak against “insert anything here” that has no kittening place, ever in any mmo that claims to be at average level. In esport? While I couldn’t care less for that ego fest, even more true then normally.
And again has nothing to do with kittened damage.

this is truth.

the design of the thief is broken at a basic level

First time i read about the patch i thought “holykitten they nerfed my defence” but just play two seconds to understand that they also fixed the damage bug (and devs also said it) . It’s impossible being twoshotted to death..

so please don’t start another junky anti-thief thread full of misinformation…
also becouse every gc build hits hard, so this is totally useless.

its not misinformation mrmadhaze , ive tested DS in pve and it gets destroyed JUST as fast as before , and reread everything thats been said here , its possible he did macros i guess cause he executed it so fast it looked like 2 shots (1st took down a full DS , 2nd downed me) , im not ruling that out either cause that would make more sense , its still BS nonetheless with a op mechanic (stealth)

now just a quick question that came up in my mind, without actually joining this conversation:
does DS count as HP bar from the enemy’s PoV? Can it activate enemy traits based on HP level, etc.
Does a thief HS against a 25% LF bar in DS hit harder based on that?

bit on topic: what others said – if it’s only 2 hits, I can’t see a way that any class could 2-shot a Necro with full HP and full LF bar. Especially not with the recent DS bug fix.

^I could be wrong, but I believe it does indeed count as a HP bar.

As for the macro claims, pulling off a complicated combo is easy enough with a little bit of practice. You need muscle memory for that, not a macro.

1. No, Death Shroud’s level doesn’t trigger “at X% health” conditions. Only your actual health matters for that.

2. Not based on Death Shroud, but if the necro has 25% health and full death shroud, the Heartseeker will deal the bonus damage for the target being at 25%, even if the necro is in death shroud.