Guild Wars 2

I was resting away from the computer earlier when I had an extremely gifted insight.
I am now going to share this insight with all of you fellow necros.

Please follow the following steps:
1) put away all your hate and discontent for a moment
2) look at all the trait lines and skills and weapons again
3) notice something?

INSIGHT
1) Every weapon option is viable
2) Every skill is viable
3) Every trait line is viable
We now have multiple build options that are all equally viable!

Looking at all the discontented posts, I realized that you guys are actually hating on small minor things.
If you look at the whole, the necro changes actually made us very interesting to play, with immense build diversity all viable!

Weapons:
Scepter: No significant change = status quo. still viable as power/condi/hybrid.
Dagger: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/hybrid
Axe: Slight buff to Axe 3
Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid
Focus: Slight buff to range
Staff: Buffed immensely in all areas
Great Sword: New weapon, no comments

Skills:
Wells: QOL change
Minions: Buffed
Signets: Buffed

Traits
Spite: Viable? Yes
Curses: Viable? Yes
Death Magic: Viable? Yes
Blood Magic: Viable? Yes
Soul Reaping: Viable? Yes
Reaper: New, no comments

Build Diversity
1) Minion-mancer: This is now no longer a dream. Traited properly, they can be insanely strong
2) Power-mancer: Strong? Yes
3) Condi-mancer: Strong? Yes
4) Corruption-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
5) Spectral-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
6) Signet-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
7) Well-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
8) Hybrid-mancer variant of any listed: Strong? Yes
9) Bunker-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
10) Sustain-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
11) Support-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
12) Shout-mancer variant: New, no comments
13) Chill-mancer variant: New, no comments
14) Reaper-mancer variant: New, no comments

LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF BUILDS WE NOW HAVE AVAILABLE!
And these are not including the mix and match hybrid builds that we can theory craft.

This is the insight I wish to share with my fellow necros.
Thank you Anet for opening up so many build possibilities to us.

I think you need a reminder of how necros do in top tier spvp and re-evaluate whether those builds are to be considered ‘strong’. Unless you mean are they capable of killing the average casual pug then sure there are countless gimmick builds in the game that can be considered strong.

And axe is still horrible, focus didn’t need range but cast time reduction, scepter 3 saw no changes etc…

Putting minor details aside: They may be viable in context of necromancer and maybe current power levels, but are they viable after all the other classes’ power creep?

Zetsumei.4975:

I think you need a reminder of how necros do in top tier spvp and re-evaluate whether those builds are to be considered ‘strong’. Unless you mean are they capable of killing the average casual pug then sure there are countless gimmick builds in the game that can be considered strong.

you also need a reminder that not everything is spvp…

Edit: even if spvp, all the builds i mentioned above are all spvp viable…I think…I don’t spvp much…just thinking…

Define “Viable” please.

What’s “Viable” for you?
Fun to play? Meta? Will be invited to parties?
In open-world/dungeon/spvp stronghold/spvp conquest/wvw roaming/wvw blob/wvw “gvg”?

And on what “facts” are your “Strong? Yes” comments based? Any source? Any calculations?

Btw my MM necro for wvw blobbing is viable! I’m saying it so it’s true!

EremiteAngel.9765:

Zetsumei.4975:

I think you need a reminder of how necros do in top tier spvp and re-evaluate whether those builds are to be considered ‘strong’. Unless you mean are they capable of killing the average casual pug then sure there are countless gimmick builds in the game that can be considered strong.

you also need a reminder that not everything is spvp…

This wont make us anywhere near meta in pve either.

Guys lets put aside meta and look, we may never be the meta, but look at all the builds!
I am filled with joy when I see every build has its own niche area and can be traited for synergy.

No one build is like meh it won’t work or is flawed to the point of being discarded.

Pure corruption builds…
Pure spectral builds…
Pure minion builds! (weeps in joy)
Pure well builds…
Pure shout builds…

the diversity is endless! all viable!

EremiteAngel.9765:

the diversity is endless! all viable!

Bubi.5237:

Define “Viable” please.

EremiteAngel.9765:

No one build is like meh it won’t work or is flawed to the point of being discarded.

Necromancers as a whole are being discarded in “high-end” (It’s a joke, I know) spvp and pve, and I don’t see the math saying it’ll change.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Zetsumei.4975:

I think you need a reminder of how necros do in top tier spvp and re-evaluate whether those builds are to be considered ‘strong’. Unless you mean are they capable of killing the average casual pug then sure there are countless gimmick builds in the game that can be considered strong.

you also need a reminder that not everything is spvp…

Edit: even if spvp, all the builds i mentioned above are all spvp viable…I think…I don’t spvp much…just thinking…

I’m primarily a wvwers myself (apart from for the last two months) but you can’t seriously base your small scale roaming experiences with pugs half of which aren’t even trying to fight but just going to pve a camp or on their way to upgrade a tower on whether necro is able to perform on the level of other classes. You’re not the only one who intentionally goes looking for 1vx’s rather than 1v1s.

When it comes to balancing small scale you’re better off looking at the closest thing to a competitive scene we have.

Well is it so much to ask to have our class present in top tier competition or do we have to sit happy that we have a few gimmick builds that we can kill inexperienced players with.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid

Banshee’s Wail was moved to Blood Magic.

flow.6043:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid

Banshee’s Wail was moved to Blood Magic.

um well i dont use warhorns so…not sure if it is a buff or a nerf…

EremiteAngel.9765:

…snip
Please follow the following steps:
1) put away all your hate and discontent for a moment
2) look at all the trait lines and skills and weapons again
3) notice something?snip…

You are right, I am getting an epiphany, I AM NOW CERTAIN!

I will be switching mains, thanks for this post as I was on the fence until I looked at the trait lines and skills the mesmer and engy WILL GET.

EremiteAngel.9765:

flow.6043:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid

Banshee’s Wail was moved to Blood Magic.

um well i dont use warhorns so…not sure if it is a buff or a nerf…

Banshee’s Wail turns warhorn from ~meh into boss-mode.
And while I’m sure many warhorn users won’t have a problem going with the now pretty nice looking Blood Magic specialization, it does mean that compared to any current build with Banshee’s Wail they’ll either have to drop a spec for BM or go with a lame warhorn.

EremiteAngel.9765:

flow.6043:

EremiteAngel.9765:

Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid

Banshee’s Wail was moved to Blood Magic.

um well i dont use warhorns so…not sure if it is a buff or a nerf…

It’s a nerf for me I will lose siphon on crit just to trait for it just like nerf to Barbed Precision it synced well but not anymore. The more I think of the changes the worst it becomes.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Zetsumei.4975:

I think you need a reminder of how necros do in top tier spvp and re-evaluate whether those builds are to be considered ‘strong’. Unless you mean are they capable of killing the average casual pug then sure there are countless gimmick builds in the game that can be considered strong.

you also need a reminder that not everything is spvp…

Edit: even if spvp, all the builds i mentioned above are all spvp viable…I think…I don’t spvp much…just thinking…

They arent. Game is balanced around spvp. It might not be your gamemode but it’s the one that people need to look at first when judging updates. Especially complete overhauls like this.

All the people saying oh this won’t be that bad or that won’t be that bad seem to be wvwers who don’t care because they can just cover weaknesses by mix and matching armor food also runes sigils and armor combos including ascended gear that don’t exist in the mode the game is primarily balanced around.

EremiteAngel.9765:

I was resting away from the computer earlier when I had an extremely gifted insight.
I am now going to share this insight with all of you fellow necros.

Please follow the following steps:
1) put away all your hate and discontent for a moment
2) look at all the trait lines and skills and weapons again
3) notice something?

INSIGHT
1) Every weapon option is viable
2) Every skill is viable
3) Every trait line is viable
We now have multiple build options that are all equally viable!

Looking at all the discontented posts, I realized that you guys are actually hating on small minor things.
If you look at the whole, the necro changes actually made us very interesting to play, with immense build diversity all viable!

Weapons:
Scepter: No significant change = status quo. still viable as power/condi/hybrid.
Dagger: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/hybrid
Axe: Slight buff to Axe 3
Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid
Focus: Slight buff to range
Staff: Buffed immensely in all areas
Great Sword: New weapon, no comments

Skills:
Wells: QOL change
Minions: Buffed
Signets: Buffed

Traits
Spite: Viable? Yes
Curses: Viable? Yes
Death Magic: Viable? Yes
Blood Magic: Viable? Yes
Soul Reaping: Viable? Yes
Reaper: New, no comments

Build Diversity
1) Minion-mancer: This is now no longer a dream. Traited properly, they can be insanely strong
2) Power-mancer: Strong? Yes
3) Condi-mancer: Strong? Yes
4) Corruption-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
5) Spectral-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
6) Signet-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
7) Well-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
8) Hybrid-mancer variant of any listed: Strong? Yes
9) Bunker-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
10) Sustain-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
11) Support-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
12) Shout-mancer variant: New, no comments
13) Chill-mancer variant: New, no comments
14) Reaper-mancer variant: New, no comments

LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF BUILDS WE NOW HAVE AVAILABLE!
And these are not including the mix and match hybrid builds that we can theory craft.

This is the insight I wish to share with my fellow necros.
Thank you Anet for opening up so many build possibilities to us.

1) All of our weapons are terrible besides warhorn. They need reworked skills/cast times. They lack a lot of utility and burst skills other professions have on their weapons. We lack a power ranged option still.

2) Not every skill is viable. Balance changes are supposed to be for PvP. We were the worst class coming into the changes and we’ll be the worst one coming out. We have no viable heals and they nerfed our only semi viable heal which needed a buff to begin with with cast time reduction or higher base heal to make up for our high health.

3) Trait lines are lackluster still. Condi line needs work. Blood still crap, their support is too gimmicky. Nothing too great about any of them, aside from soul reaping imo.

Skills – I agree

Trait lines – Do you know viable needs to be in context of PvP and not some PvE or WvW dreams? That’s literally what they balance on. We aren’t meta, we have no viable meta build, how can you say all the lines are viable?

Build Diversity:

-MM will never be what we want cause of AI and how it’ll never succeed in top end PvP.
-Powermancer nerfed our downed state damage and lich form, our two most useful things. And our only heal. Still can’t sustain.
-Condimancer has lots of problems from traitlines to not enough pressure. Easily outdone.
-Literally have never seen a corruption mancer. I don’t think that exists. People only use corrupt boon in PvP.
-Spectral our best utils with too long cds still
-Signets nice buffs very boring play though and still won’t make us viable
-Wells 2 strong wells, 1 okay well. Still needed in unviable powermancer build
-Hybrid, no can’t run celestial
-Terrible bunker spec because it offers no support in PvP compared to others
-Beyond terrible sustain do you even play necro? It can’t live through focus
- Supportmancer? Okay you don’t play necro
-Shouts were terrible with awful castimes. Will rarely see use in pvp aside from elite.
-Chill/Reaper TBD

Honestly I support optimism in bad times as I’m normally a realist leaning towards pessimism but wow this is overboard.

lets fix this shall we?

Build Diversity
1) Minion-mancer: Still really really bad, never run
2) Power-mancer: Strong? No
3) Condi-mancer: Strong? No
4) Corruption-mancer variant: Strong? You end up killing yourself.
5) Spectral-mancer variant: Strong? No
6) Signet-mancer variant: Strong? Probably going to be our only option
7) Well-mancer variant: Strong? No
8) Hybrid-mancer variant of any listed: Strong? No
9) Bunker-mancer variant: Strong? No stability can’t take focus fire. No
10) Sustain-mancer variant: Strong? No
11) Support-mancer variant: Strong? No Stability can’t take focus fire. No
12) Shout-mancer variant: No.
13) Chill-mancer variant: No.
14) Reaper-mancer variant: Can’t take Focus fire. No.

You’re welcome.

Lily.1935:

2) Power-mancer: Strong? No

It’s a lie, powermancer is viable. At least for duels and roaming.

ImdA.4701:

Lily.1935:

2) Power-mancer: Strong? No

It’s a lie, powermancer is viable. At least for duels and roaming.

Balance changes are based on PvP. Asking if something is viable is normally used in that context.

L Step.8659:

ImdA.4701:

Lily.1935:

2) Power-mancer: Strong? No

It’s a lie, powermancer is viable. At least for duels and roaming.

Balance changes are based on PvP. Asking if something is viable is normally used in that context.

And its not. Without access to easy stability or some sort of scaling defense powermancer is exactly the same as it was before. Dueling doesn’t determine matches in PvP and it doesn’t help us any in PvE.

Lily.1935:

L Step.8659:

ImdA.4701:

Lily.1935:

2) Power-mancer: Strong? No

It’s a lie, powermancer is viable. At least for duels and roaming.

Balance changes are based on PvP. Asking if something is viable is normally used in that context.

And its not. Without access to easy stability or some sort of scaling defense powermancer is exactly the same as it was before. Dueling doesn’t determine matches in PvP and it doesn’t help us any in PvE.

I am agreeing with you, Lily, I was just telling him why we both said it’s not viable :p

ImdA.4701:

Lily.1935:

2) Power-mancer: Strong? No

It’s a lie, powermancer is viable. At least for duels and roaming.

Do not bring WvW in balance if duels were a real mode current necro would lost 9 out 10 times due to no starting LF.

Even if you could say that the buffs make every necro build strong in comparison to each other, in comparison to everything else, which just got way better, we are now a whole bar lower than we were before. It’s like every class took three steps forward and let necro take the two steps back in their place. As if we weren’t already the whipping boy of GW2, we really are now, and I don’t see how we could even be considered viable in WvW where every d/d ele will be running Diamond Skin because they can, and our heal skill now begs people to kill us while leaving us weaker to ALL builds.

Necro is done in pvp. Just wait. Pwr builds will be crushed even faster, no condi builds were weakened significantly., while engie, thief, warrior, Mesmer, and guardian just got a huger power creep. Ele, engie, and Mesmer will dominate once again, with warriors and guardians will still be necessary. Necro – dead.

I told you guys so.
With the explanations, I believe we all agree that necros are in a very good spot.
even the corruption skills, self inflicted condis I always knew was meant for us to utilize as weapons and transfer it to the enemy. so they are actually good if you spec for transfers. If you don’t spec for transfers in your build, then dont use corruption.

Viable, yes. Competitive, no.

You can also play without armor and trinkets, which could be considered viable, it doesn’t mean you should

I still think OP is a troll.

I would never troll my own people

The biggest buff to Necro viability and build diversity wasn’t so much all the new stuff. It was really the baselining and merging our traits, in addition to the extra trait points in the new system. We probably suffer the worst from trait conflict and not having enough trait points to build viably past one or two builds. That’s changing. You could argue that many builds will gain double or even triple the effective traits they have now.

This Tuesday will be a true test of Necro balancing. Were we held back by a few missing puzzle pieces, because we were forced into trying to take too many sub-bar and needlessly split traits? Or are we held back because the entire puzzle is flawed, since key mechanics just don’t work as intended?

I think it’s a mixture and on patch day our builds will work and feel a lot better. Unfortunately (or fortunately), we will be behind the eight ball since the new Necro seems balanced for the current meta and not the one forming with the patch. Shroud mechanics will likely still suffer from scaling/cc issues regardless of siphon and max lifeforce changes.

However, I say fortunately because if this occurs, Anet may clearly see that Necros need a boost on top of the current changes, or a rework of shroud functionality. Shroud needs to synergize with Necro mechanics and group mechanics better, while scaling better sustain wise in larger fights. This wasn’t addressed and is probably the biggest problem Necros face.

EremiteAngel.9765:

I would never troll my own people

Except that you aren’t a Necro main and are here just to spew some bullkitten. Every single other profession is better than Necro in just about every way. You see, it doesn’t matter that there are still a lot of buildpaths, if for every buildpath there is a class that does it infinitly better. Bunker ? Guardian. Condis? eg. condition-Engi. Power? Warrior, Ranger, …. . Mixed? Cele-Ele. Support? Guardian, Ele, … . Sorry, but if there is always a better option for no matter what task, that means the class that gets overshadowed like that is in a terrible, terrible state. Which is EXACTLY where Necromancers are now, and have been (for the most part) for a long, long time. I think with the current changes not even giving us back the old Dhuumfire could take us out of the sink we are in.

how do you know I don’t main necro?

EremiteAngel.9765:

how do you know I don’t main necro?

Just a guess but I assume he read your opening post.

Condi-mancer strong ? yes
All-other-mancer’s strong? no

Shiki.7148:

EremiteAngel.9765:

I would never troll my own people

Except that you aren’t a Necro main and are here just to spew some bullkitten. Every single other profession is better than Necro in just about every way. You see, it doesn’t matter that there are still a lot of buildpaths, if for every buildpath there is a class that does it infinitly better. Bunker ? Guardian. Condis? eg. condition-Engi. Power? Warrior, Ranger, …. . Mixed? Cele-Ele. Support? Guardian, Ele, … . Sorry, but if there is always a better option for no matter what task, that means the class that gets overshadowed like that is in a terrible, terrible state. Which is EXACTLY where Necromancers are now, and have been (for the most part) for a long, long time. I think with the current changes not even giving us back the old Dhuumfire could take us out of the sink we are in.

You’re basically right when it comes to PvP. Necromancers right now can be built to kill almost anyone and any build basically 1 on 1. The problem is that in PvP competitive levels, skilled players aren’t just “anyone,” 1v1 doesn’t happen much for long and other players take advantage of our major drawbacks (lack of mobility, lack of stability and DS/LF gain not scaling well vs. many people in PvP). Major drawbacks that make us inferior to most other classes in nearly every situation. For PvE our big drawback was lack of wanted group support, unique group support and a lack of potent cleave.

We got a little taste of “wanted” group support with Blood is Power now buffing allies change. Revive mastery mechanics of the new Blood Magic add a new unique group support, which will likely be highly desired in HoT which is basically all challenging open world/world bosses with no dungeon content. I’m guessing instanced content will be Living Story difficulty levels aka soloable. They haven’t talked about it much, but I believe they don’t even have a Dungeon/Fractal team still. We get cleaves and AoE power abilities with Reaper.

PvP I don’t see anything really changing except the slight possibility that the major baselining and merging of various traits in combination with extra trait points will allow 2-3 different builds to become one build. Is better synergy and more trait effects in our builds enough to make us competitive in high level PvP? I doubt it. Not without a rework to DS like a damage cap per second against our LF bar. Something to make DS more active defense vs. many enemies so we actually have attrition when were supposed to have it. Stability or other ways to sustain through cc would be nice as well. The limited healing through DS (Life Steals, Unholy Sanctuary) is a good start.

Just a side note and personal pet peeve. Your post was perfectly fine and viable without the ad hominem attack in the first sentence. You don’t know whether he mains a Necro or not so why bring it up? It doesn’t even matter to your point. It’s entirely possible someone who alts a Necro can know more and play it more than someone who mains a Necro. In some cases, they may know more than Necro mains about their problems by having different perpectives playing different classes against us. But I digress.

EremiteAngel.9765:

LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF BUILDS WE NOW HAVE AVAILABLE!
And these are not including the mix and match hybrid builds that we can theory craft.

This is the insight I wish to share with my fellow necros.
Thank you Anet for opening up so many build possibilities to us.

That’s not insight. That’s wishful thinking. Right now, in spvp, the only viable build is power necro, and it has taken a hit to the chest due to the ridiculous nerf to consume conditions. Of course we have to wait to see if the other changes compensate, but seeing the history of necro in GW2 and how badly it’s been treated by anet, I am guessing we will end up with many equally useless builds.

O ye gods! Please give me INSIGHT too!

All this insight talk is reminding me of Bloodborne.

Burjis.3087:

O ye gods! Please give me INSIGHT too!

I’m standing right here sheesh! :p

I m so glad i was right. We have so many viable and FUN builds right now.
we could specialize in one mastery, choose various playstyles like bunker healer killer and so much more. We can mic and match for tank healers attrition warfare! E
Even minon build works!

This is prob the best patch ever in the past year. I got so mamy differmt armor and weapon sets just for this.
Rabid dire carrion zerker magi soldiers…now i can finally feel they are all useful.

cries

It feels like from a pve stand point that all necro builds are equally bad compared to everyone else

I’m just glad all the posts in the necro threads are positive now T_T
well…almost >.>

well i guess you were right OP

Zackie.8923:

well i guess you were right OP

haha…
hahahaha….
HAhahahha….
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

feels good to be right

wipes away tears

EremiteAngel.9765:

I was resting away from the computer earlier when I had an extremely gifted insight.
I am now going to share this insight with all of you fellow necros.

Please follow the following steps:
1) put away all your hate and discontent for a moment
2) look at all the trait lines and skills and weapons again
3) notice something?

INSIGHT
1) Every weapon option is viable
2) Every skill is viable
3) Every trait line is viable
We now have multiple build options that are all equally viable!

Looking at all the discontented posts, I realized that you guys are actually hating on small minor things.
If you look at the whole, the necro changes actually made us very interesting to play, with immense build diversity all viable!

Weapons:
Scepter: No significant change = status quo. still viable as power/condi/hybrid.
Dagger: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/hybrid
Axe: Slight buff to Axe 3
Warhorn: No significant change = status quo, still viable as power/condi/hybrid
Focus: Slight buff to range
Staff: Buffed immensely in all areas
Great Sword: New weapon, no comments

Skills:
Wells: QOL change
Minions: Buffed
Signets: Buffed

Traits
Spite: Viable? Yes
Curses: Viable? Yes
Death Magic: Viable? Yes
Blood Magic: Viable? Yes
Soul Reaping: Viable? Yes
Reaper: New, no comments

Build Diversity
1) Minion-mancer: This is now no longer a dream. Traited properly, they can be insanely strong
2) Power-mancer: Strong? Yes
3) Condi-mancer: Strong? Yes
4) Corruption-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
5) Spectral-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
6) Signet-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
7) Well-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
8) Hybrid-mancer variant of any listed: Strong? Yes
9) Bunker-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
10) Sustain-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
11) Support-mancer variant: Strong? Yes
12) Shout-mancer variant: New, no comments
13) Chill-mancer variant: New, no comments
14) Reaper-mancer variant: New, no comments

LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF BUILDS WE NOW HAVE AVAILABLE!
And these are not including the mix and match hybrid builds that we can theory craft.

This is the insight I wish to share with my fellow necros.
Thank you Anet for opening up so many build possibilities to us.

This is excactly what I*ve been trying to tell people in the forums and in game. +1 for you. And for the guys complaining about necros not being viable in top tier play or aren’t present at all,come on. The top tier play,isn’t that like 1% of the community? Are you seriously going to base the rest of the community on an extremely small minority?

Also,most of us is not there,hence the acclaimed “necro is bad” statement doens’t apply at all,if it ever was anyway

I wouldn’t be so quick to claim anything. Everyone is trying out new builds so it’s more like Necros in lower ranked PvP pre-patch where players haven’t learned how to beat a necro.

As builds get tried and tossed, eventually there will be a few team comps that will be adopted which will push out a class or two. We haven’t even got to that stage yet. Plus Anet will be doing balance patches which will also change who is in the new meta.

The best thing you can do for the Necro class is figue out a team comp, PvP and PvE, where a Necro build is required. If you can’t, there’s always HoT or the next major balance patch one year from now.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Zackie.8923:

well i guess you were right OP

haha…
hahahaha….
HAhahahha….
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

feels good to be right

wipes away tears

wait till everybody figures out what to do with their profession to cry victory.

So far, power wells necro felt almost ok. I’ve been trying a signet hybrid with dagger/wh and axe/focus. Feels nice to have all the might but it seriously miss the well of suffering.