Guild Wars 2

Forum page 2 madness.

Bhawb.7408:

Lily.1935:

I don’t lose very much damage when switching to a staff from dagger/focus.

That’s just factually inaccurate. Staff’s AA is 58% of the damage of Axe’s, and that’s assuming it even hits, and its a slow projectile vs nonprojectile. Marks hit for 0.3/0.5/1.2/0.25 coefficients, which is again, pathetic damage. Every single mark added together does less direct damage than a single Axe 2, or a single Dagger AA chain – 2.55 vs 2.88/2.8. So you absolutely lose damage, its not debatable.

Also, staff doesn’t keep people in wells. It has a single soft CC to keep people in place, in the form of chill. One dodge and they’re out; or if you fear them they’ll leave on their own.

Its not. The axe does 2 attacks at close to half the damage of the staff’s AA. This is factual. This its testable. Unless you’re playing a different game than I am, this is the case. When attacking with staff its doing 1.3k non-crit to 3.5k crit. Axe is doing a total of about 1.4k non-crit to 3.8k crit in total. The difference is extremely low. And since staff hits multiple targets with its aa, has potentially 3 CCs, 2 soft and one hard. Also, I fear them back into wells. Because I’m good like that. Also… I know how to run both weapons to their optimal performance.

Your pre-conceived bias toward staff is preventing you from seeing it for its massive value and utility. And We’ve been talking for years now. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard you say “I hate staff”. You’ve said it for years and years and blatantly refused to run it. You’ve even said you don’t run it out of spite. How am I or anyone else supposed to take your opinion seriously when you have a vendetta against the weapon?

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

spoj.9672:

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait. But taking the trait strips you of other valuable traits you could be taking instead to make a bad weapon slightly less bad.

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

Another note to consider. Weapon’s damage also factors into the damage of your attacks in Death shroud and reaper’s shroud. And since staff has a higher weapon strength than axe. (Axe being 900-1,100 and staff being 1,034-1,166 respectively).

Less shroud down time means more damage when not using your primary weapon of choice.

Lily.1935:

spoj.9672:

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait. But taking the trait strips you of other valuable traits you could be taking instead to make a bad weapon slightly less bad.

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

Another note to consider. Weapon’s damage also factors into the damage of your attacks in Death shroud and reaper’s shroud. And since staff has a higher weapon strength than axe. (Axe being 900-1,100 and staff being 1,034-1,166 respectively).

Less shroud down time means more damage when not using your primary weapon of choice.

Weapon damage only matters in DS not RS. RS weapon is considered a hammer and thus the equipped weapon doesn’t matter.

Staff doesn’t provide a lot more choices than having an option for an OH.

Anyways nobody will be mad if you accept that your are bias. But to claim you are not assumes everyone here is stupid.

PlatinumMember.5274:

Lily.1935:

spoj.9672:

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait. But taking the trait strips you of other valuable traits you could be taking instead to make a bad weapon slightly less bad.

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

Another note to consider. Weapon’s damage also factors into the damage of your attacks in Death shroud and reaper’s shroud. And since staff has a higher weapon strength than axe. (Axe being 900-1,100 and staff being 1,034-1,166 respectively).

Less shroud down time means more damage when not using your primary weapon of choice.

Weapon damage only matters in DS not RS. RS weapon is considered a hammer and thus the equipped weapon doesn’t matter.

Staff doesn’t provide a lot more choices than having an option for an OH.

Anyways nobody will be mad if you accept that your are bias. But to claim you are not assumes everyone here is stupid.

actually it does. Just checked for myself.

Its not bias if its true. And its very true. I don’t hate axe. I don’t hate staff. I find that staff is kinda boring to use because, well.. It kinda is. But I can’t argue with how effective it is. Much like I can’t argue with how powerful tarmogoyf is. And I hate that stupid creature.. It doesn’t do anything! its just a fatty!

Lily.1935:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Lily.1935:

spoj.9672:

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait. But taking the trait strips you of other valuable traits you could be taking instead to make a bad weapon slightly less bad.

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

Another note to consider. Weapon’s damage also factors into the damage of your attacks in Death shroud and reaper’s shroud. And since staff has a higher weapon strength than axe. (Axe being 900-1,100 and staff being 1,034-1,166 respectively).

Less shroud down time means more damage when not using your primary weapon of choice.

Weapon damage only matters in DS not RS. RS weapon is considered a hammer and thus the equipped weapon doesn’t matter.

Staff doesn’t provide a lot more choices than having an option for an OH.

Anyways nobody will be mad if you accept that your are bias. But to claim you are not assumes everyone here is stupid.

actually it does. Just checked for myself.

Its not bias if its true. And its very true. I don’t hate axe. I don’t hate staff. I find that staff is kinda boring to use because, well.. It kinda is. But I can’t argue with how effective it is. Much like I can’t argue with how powerful tarmogoyf is. And I hate that stupid creature.. It doesn’t do anything! its just a fatty!

Sure. You tested it.

I’m still only lvl 40 on my necro but after reading this post I decided to pick up an axe again and try it. At this lvl it kicks kittens! I’vd had a blast the past few days.

Lily.1935:

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait.

No one is disputing that the Staff has a lot of utility. At least for PvE, though, I’m finding more and more that I’d really just prefer the higher damage of Axe. Yes, the Staff has potentially more damage on its autoattack if you hit a bunch of targets, but if there are a bunch of targets to kill, generally speaking I find that I can just melee them. The only times I really want/need to attack at range are when there’s a boss with some serious anti-melee mechanics or so much mobility that I’d rather not bother chasing him down, and in both cases the Axe is superior.

Additionally, I think you’re underestimating the Axe’s utility. Putting aside that it gives you a choice in 4 and 5 skills (a pretty big advantage in itself), the vuln-stacking at range is also nice since most of our other Vulnerability requires us to be in melee. What’s more, Unholy Feast has so much utility I actually think it’s right on the edge of being overloaded. Decent AoE damage with a cripple, boon corruption, and some free Retaliation on top of all that (incidentally good for procing Blighter’s Boon, since each hit counts as a separate boon application, though this is a very minor fringe benefit), it’s just a lot of tools for a one-second cast time.

Lily.1935:

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

If you’re using a power build with Soul Reaping, I find you very rarely lack for Life Force. Axe 2 + whatever your offhand weapon is (and maybe the occasionally BB procs from Axe 3) are more than enough to keep you topped off. If PvE, I honestly can’t spend Life Force quickly enough and I haven’t been having any trouble generating LF in PvP, either. Soul Marks has always stuck me as extreme overkill for power builds, particularly when you have to give up either Speed of Shadows or Unyielding Blast for it.

Now don’t get me wrong: I’m nowhere near as down on the Staff as Bhawb is. I think it has its place and, generally, the choice between it and Axe/? comes down to personal preference and the specific content at hand. But Axe/? is good, too, certainly better for single-target damage.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Lily.1935:

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait.

No one is disputing that the Staff has a lot of utility. At least for PvE, though, I’m finding more and more that I’d really just prefer the higher damage of Axe. Yes, the Staff has potentially more damage on its autoattack if you hit a bunch of targets, but if there are a bunch of targets to kill, generally speaking I find that I can just melee them. The only times I really want/need to attack at range are when there’s a boss with some serious anti-melee mechanics or so much mobility that I’d rather not bother chasing him down, and in both cases the Axe is superior.

Additionally, I think you’re underestimating the Axe’s utility. Putting aside that it gives you a choice in 4 and 5 skills (a pretty big advantage in itself), the vuln-stacking at range is also nice since most of our other Vulnerability requires us to be in melee. What’s more, Unholy Feast has so much utility I actually think it’s right on the edge of being overloaded. Decent AoE damage with a cripple, boon corruption, and some free Retaliation on top of all that (incidentally good for procing Blighter’s Boon, since each hit counts as a separate boon application, though this is a very minor fringe benefit), it’s just a lot of tools for a one-second cast time.

Lily.1935:

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

If you’re using a power build with Soul Reaping, I find you very rarely lack for Life Force. Axe 2 + whatever your offhand weapon is (and maybe the occasionally BB procs from Axe 3) are more than enough to keep you topped off. If PvE, I honestly can’t spend Life Force quickly enough and I haven’t been having any trouble generating LF in PvP, either. Soul Marks has always stuck me as extreme overkill for power builds, particularly when you have to give up either Speed of Shadows or Unyielding Blast for it.

Now don’t get me wrong: I’m nowhere near as down on the Staff as Bhawb is. I think it has its place and, generally, the choice between it and Axe/? comes down to personal preference and the specific content at hand. But Axe/? is good, too, certainly better for single-target damage.

I’ve used axe and staff heavily in the new HoT maps to see which one was more effective. I gave axe a fair shot in that content and I’ve just found that its damage wasn’t nearly high enough to justify the lack of defenses and the poor life force generation that the new maps have required. Fighting a group of Chak, or what have you, the Staff continues to prove its metal, often times allowing me to keep my reaper’s shroud up far longer than with axe. I’ve tested axe in pure berserker and in my Crusader’s set and both times it was under preforming. The life force that I needed just want there and the enemies could more easily run me over.

In situations where I wasn’t outnumbered it honestly didn’t matter which weapon I took. Staff’s damage wasn’t that great in those situations but neither was axe. I would end up spending most my time while using either staff or axe in reaper’s shroud. And since Axe’s life force generation wasn’t good enough I stuck with staff. Staff could more easily break up mobs than axe could and its chill and possible weakness could buffer the damage far easier. When I’m forced to fight at range with the exception of my condi build I’m in a defensive position and my primary concern is survival until I build my life force and can go on the offensive again. Which again, staff excels at here too.

Although in the new maps the absolute greatest success I’ve had with any build has been Condireaper. However Power reaper isn’t a bad option at all, its still extremely good and I’ve used both extensively. But that’s beside the point.

So it boils down to which do you want? Higher survivability, control and greater shroud up time? Or more damage against a single target while you’re not in shroud. And the answer I keep coming back to and the answer that the game’s mechanics keep telling me is that I want staff, always staff, all the time on any build that’s designed to face the content. I have 2 ascended weapons of every single necromancer weapon excluding the axe since I have the legendary axe and I’ve done extensive testing on all of them. the axe always under preforms.

The axe needs work. Major work.

Lily.1935:

I’ve used axe and staff heavily in the new HoT maps to see which one was more effective. I gave axe a fair shot in that content and I’ve just found that its damage wasn’t nearly high enough to justify the lack of defenses and the poor life force generation that the new maps have required. Fighting a group of Chak, or what have you, the Staff continues to prove its metal, often times allowing me to keep my reaper’s shroud up far longer than with axe. I’ve tested axe in pure berserker and in my Crusader’s set and both times it was under preforming. The life force that I needed just want there and the enemies could more easily run me over.

It sounds to me (and I could just be misunderstanding you) like you’ve been testing the Axe primarily in situations where the Greatsword would’ve been better. If you’re righting a group of Chak, you’ll do better to just get in their face, pull them together, and cleave them down. Both the Staff and the Axe are going to feel piddly in that situation because that isn’t the sort of fight in which either is meant to shine.

As for LF generation, I have no idea why you need more. I’ve found myself absolutely drowning in the stuff, even in the new maps. I suppose it also helps that I only switch to RS when I really need to shift to a defensive stance or if I need the CC to burn down a break bar; the Greatsword has so much more damage than RS that I try to focus on using it whenever possible. As such, I pretty much always have a full LF bar when I need it (and in group situations, it always fills up by the time it’s back off cooldown).

Lily.1935:

Staff’s damage wasn’t that great in those situations but neither was axe.

Yet by the numbers, it was. Compared to the Staff, at least. If you run time-to-kill numbers on golems in the Heart of the Mists, it’s very easy to see that the Axe dramatically out-damages the Staff. However, the Axe’s individual hits tend to be much smaller and the animations on 1 and 2 are generally less visually and aurally satisfying to my sensibilities, which gives the false perception that the Axe is less effective than it really is. If all ANet did with the Axe were to bring its animations up to the same level of visceral feel as the Greatsword, it would instantly jump a few notches in just about everyone’s estimations.

Lily.1935:

Although in the new maps the absolute greatest success I’ve had with any build has been Condireaper. However Power reaper isn’t a bad option at all, its still extremely good and I’ve used both extensively. But that’s beside the point.

I’ve enjoyed both, though I’ve generally found the Power Reaper to be a bit stronger. As they’re both quite strong, I suspect this is a difference of preference alone.

How are you measuring effectiveness, out of curiosity? As far as greater shroud uptime, it seems assumed that you get more LF from Staff #1 spam, but that assumes that mobs are alive. I suppose if you’re fighting a pack of vets they would survive, but any regular mobs I’ve fought so far just get cleaved down within a few seconds, leaving the “main” mob. I really enjoy soloing champions when I find them (if they don’t take forever to kill), and when there’s a single target, Staff’s LF generation is abysmal at best.

I have pretty incredible survivability without the need for Staff with my Cavalier build, so I personally want the damage/LF generation combo from range (and the boon strip, and the additional vuln).

I just like axe. I like how the #2 and #3 feel, I like how I have some versatility with OH customization, and I like the role it fills next to my Greatsword. I’m also a more aggressive style player, so especially in PvE, I don’t want utility downtime. If ever I was planning on attacking 3+ vets at once, I might actually opt for Staff over Axe, but I don’t usually see packs like that. I kind of wish I did though.

Cogbyrn.7283:

How are you measuring effectiveness, out of curiosity? As far as greater shroud uptime, it seems assumed that you get more LF from Staff #1 spam, but that assumes that mobs are alive. I suppose if you’re fighting a pack of vets they would survive, but any regular mobs I’ve fought so far just get cleaved down within a few seconds, leaving the “main” mob. I really enjoy soloing champions when I find them (if they don’t take forever to kill), and when there’s a single target, Staff’s LF generation is abysmal at best.

I have pretty incredible survivability without the need for Staff with my Cavalier build, so I personally want the damage/LF generation combo from range (and the boon strip, and the additional vuln).

I just like axe. I like how the #2 and #3 feel, I like how I have some versatility with OH customization, and I like the role it fills next to my Greatsword. I’m also a more aggressive style player, so especially in PvE, I don’t want utility downtime. If ever I was planning on attacking 3+ vets at once, I might actually opt for Staff over Axe, but I don’t usually see packs like that. I kind of wish I did though.

If I’m fighting regular mobs they die all at the same time with staff while at the same time only one dies with axe. Give it about 5 seconds. Wells do most the work. I’ve fought a tone of up leveled foes and axe can’t kill them in the 5 second duration and neither can staff but I’ve often and easily gained 20% life force on auto allowing me to dance in shroud and win otherwise unwinnable situations.

Cogbyrn.7283:

How are you measuring effectiveness, out of curiosity? As far as greater shroud uptime, it seems assumed that you get more LF from Staff #1 spam, but that assumes that mobs are alive. I suppose if you’re fighting a pack of vets they would survive, but any regular mobs I’ve fought so far just get cleaved down within a few seconds, leaving the “main” mob. I really enjoy soloing champions when I find them (if they don’t take forever to kill), and when there’s a single target, Staff’s LF generation is abysmal at best.

I have pretty incredible survivability without the need for Staff with my Cavalier build, so I personally want the damage/LF generation combo from range (and the boon strip, and the additional vuln).

I just like axe. I like how the #2 and #3 feel, I like how I have some versatility with OH customization, and I like the role it fills next to my Greatsword. I’m also a more aggressive style player, so especially in PvE, I don’t want utility downtime. If ever I was planning on attacking 3+ vets at once, I might actually opt for Staff over Axe, but I don’t usually see packs like that. I kind of wish I did though.

I can guarantee you that I’m far more aggressive of a player. I don’t like camping at range and would much prefer ripping through their defenses and quickly as possible. Which means I don’t want to be on staff or Axe at all. I’d rather be on Dagger/focus, greatsword or in shroud. I don’t want to fool around with a ranged weapon like axe or staff for very long and staff gives me that shroud uptime I often need so I can be more aggressive.

Also on another note. In terms of content the Scepter condi damage compared to staff or axe power damage the scepter easily out damages both of them in my condi reaper set. The condi set provides greater chill up time than my power build and also tend to use CpC which increases survivability. In longer fights, such as champions it isn’t always an option to be in melee range and Condi has greater damage than power in those situations. So I’ve found that condi is more effective because its damage sustain is higher and has more defensive options. Though trash mobs this doesn’t matter at all. This is how its turned out when I’ve tested it, but both have worked very well and I’ll switch based on my mood.

Lily.1935:

Cogbyrn.7283:

How are you measuring effectiveness, out of curiosity? As far as greater shroud uptime, it seems assumed that you get more LF from Staff #1 spam, but that assumes that mobs are alive. I suppose if you’re fighting a pack of vets they would survive, but any regular mobs I’ve fought so far just get cleaved down within a few seconds, leaving the “main” mob. I really enjoy soloing champions when I find them (if they don’t take forever to kill), and when there’s a single target, Staff’s LF generation is abysmal at best.

I have pretty incredible survivability without the need for Staff with my Cavalier build, so I personally want the damage/LF generation combo from range (and the boon strip, and the additional vuln).

I just like axe. I like how the #2 and #3 feel, I like how I have some versatility with OH customization, and I like the role it fills next to my Greatsword. I’m also a more aggressive style player, so especially in PvE, I don’t want utility downtime. If ever I was planning on attacking 3+ vets at once, I might actually opt for Staff over Axe, but I don’t usually see packs like that. I kind of wish I did though.

If I’m fighting regular mobs they die all at the same time with staff while at the same time only one dies with axe. Give it about 5 seconds. Wells do most the work. I’ve fought a tone of up leveled foes and axe can’t kill them in the 5 second duration and neither can staff but I’ve often and easily gained 20% life force on auto allowing me to dance in shroud and win otherwise unwinnable situations.

Where are you fighting these groups of 5 up-leveled mobs that you’re using staff autos on? I want to go fight them, as I really enjoy fighting packs. I just haven’t been back in Maguuma much since finishing the story.

EDIT -

Lily.1935:

I can guarantee you that I’m far more aggressive of a player.

I don’t think you can make that guarantee.

If you are such an aggressive player why are you using a staff at all? Ive been running greatsword + d/f since HoT. And before that d/f + d/w exclusively. And never had an issue. The whole arguement that staff provides good aoe is pretty weak. Since you can be more effective with dagger auto attack (yes it only hits 2 at a time but it still ends up resulting in faster mob clearing). The idea that you should always run with a ranged secondary option is also completely false. PvE isnt the type of gametype where you are that restricted.

Its actually a gametype where you should always make sure you have a desirable auto attack on both weapon sets. Staff doesnt fill that role. Axe fills it barely due to its range and axe 2 makes up some of the loss on the auto. The thing with axe is that even though its bad. You literally never have damage downtime. Which is why its not a bad choice in those really niche situations. Same could be said about staff but its sooo much weaker for very little utility gain.

Its only since HoT released have i actually bothered to try ranged options. Mainly for group challenge hero point solos. And every one of those ive tested whether i needed to move out of melee a considerable amount of time or not. If i did then i would swap dagger or greatsword for axe. So id be running greatsword + a/f or d/f + a/f. Staff isnt even a consideration. Its just that bad for PvE.

spoj.9672:

Axe fills it barely due to its range and axe 2 makes up some of the loss on the auto.

Axe 2 is actually not much of a DPS increase. I’ve run a bunch of time tests on golems and it’s really hard to puzzle out the difference in time-to-kill. It is a DPS increase, but a really, really small one, and only if you let your autoattack animation complete before starting up 2. If you pop 2 immediately every time it’s off cooldown, you’re going to interrupt an autoattack and actually lose DPS. It’s mostly just useful for the LF generation.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Now don’t get me wrong: I’m nowhere near as down on the Staff as Bhawb is. I think it has its place and, generally, the choice between it and Axe/? comes down to personal preference and the specific content at hand. But Axe/? is good, too, certainly better for single-target damage.

This is really the take away for Axe/? vs Staff. There are some situations where one is objectively better (higher power DPS on Axe vs Staff’s condition damage), but generally speaking, especially in PvP, its a matter of personal choice.

@Lily, just because I hate using staff doesn’t mean I’m incapable of seeing its strengths. Me refusing to use it in my builds is just a personal choice, I know it is stronger in certain situations, however there is also a lot of blind love for staff when it doesn’t strictly benefit your build more than another option. I just dislike it when people go overboard on bringing up what staff does while ignoring what axe brings; they’re both generally subpar weapons that have a ton of mechanics without any of them being particularly strong or unique.

Lily.1935:

spoj.9672:

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait. But taking the trait strips you of other valuable traits you could be taking instead to make a bad weapon slightly less bad.

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

Another note to consider. Weapon’s damage also factors into the damage of your attacks in Death shroud and reaper’s shroud. And since staff has a higher weapon strength than axe. (Axe being 900-1,100 and staff being 1,034-1,166 respectively).

Less shroud down time means more damage when not using your primary weapon of choice.

Now now, when I sadi that staff brings only utility, you said nooooo staff is considerbly doing more dmg, and now that somone proved ya that staff doing less dmg you return to your only thing that is true, the thing I said about staff brigning only utility to the table. It might be good when you playing against thieves with no brain.But side from that, staff is very much avoidable and when you lay all your marks,you wanna pray for the swtich weapon toggle to be available.While in axe/x you have the constant pressure which with staff you dont. also I argue that using axe/warhorn gives you about same utilty as staff.

Blaine Tog.8304:

spoj.9672:

Axe fills it barely due to its range and axe 2 makes up some of the loss on the auto.

Axe 2 is actually not much of a DPS increase. I’ve run a bunch of time tests on golems and it’s really hard to puzzle out the difference in time-to-kill. It is a DPS increase, but a really, really small one, and only if you let your autoattack animation complete before starting up 2. If you pop 2 immediately every time it’s off cooldown, you’re going to interrupt an autoattack and actually lose DPS. It’s mostly just useful for the LF generation.

Oh dont get me wrong. Axe 2 is really weak. But its quite a considerable boost over its own auto attack. At least it is as far as my calculations go (over 25% better).

Golem test would be inaccurate because the auto will get a larger boost from all that extra vuln.

spoj.9672:

Blaine Tog.8304:

spoj.9672:

Axe fills it barely due to its range and axe 2 makes up some of the loss on the auto.

Axe 2 is actually not much of a DPS increase. I’ve run a bunch of time tests on golems and it’s really hard to puzzle out the difference in time-to-kill. It is a DPS increase, but a really, really small one, and only if you let your autoattack animation complete before starting up 2. If you pop 2 immediately every time it’s off cooldown, you’re going to interrupt an autoattack and actually lose DPS. It’s mostly just useful for the LF generation.

Oh dont get me wrong. Axe 2 is really weak. But its quite a considerable boost over its own auto attack. At least it is as far as my calculations go (over 25% better).

Golem test would be inaccurate because the auto will get a larger boost from all that extra vuln.

The way I’ve done my golem tests is like this:

Test 1: Just autoattack.

Test 2: Autoattack + pressing 2 when available (between autos).

The difference in vulnerability isn’t very big there, just a couple of stacks, since I’m still autoattacking a fair amount. 2 barely decreases the kill time, and I do mean barely. You’re right that it would offer bit more of a DPS increase if the target was already capped on Vuln, but still not by all that much, mostly because of 2’s atrociously long aftercast.

Don’t get me wrong: I’m still a fan of the Axe because of its neat mechanics, but 2 isn’t as big of a DPS boost as the numbers it generates would seem to suggest. A chain can hit 10k without breaking a sweat, but you’d still be dealing nearly that in autoattacks in the same amount of time.

Axe isn’t a bad weapon. But its kit needs a minor overhaul. I still use axe just because I like its given amount of distance. It isn’t a world record killer but it gets the job done. I’ve been the last man standing in many parties because of this “crappy” weapon

For ranged power damage you already have life blast and lich form. [Reaper being a melee focused build]

I don’t think of Axe as a mainhand weapon but as a secondary power weapon you would whip out to restore deathshroud, and/or as a reaper to use against certain PVE bosses [current and future in the case of raids] where melee becomes temporarily unviable. So you’re primarily in melee and when the boss starts using AOEs you switch to axe and recover your lifeforce pool whilst still dealing some damage as opposed to none.

Axe is not meant to be used as a direct damage dealing weapon, but rather as a power up weapon for DS 1 and for that it is very good yes.

You never want to be hit accidentally, come out of DS and be stuck with a staff for the next 10 sec, and GS is not always an option since the range glass build variant doesn’t use reaper.
Dagger lacks the 10% damage modifier that axe gets which does work with DS 1.

Axe – focus is used to powerup your lifeforce so you can go back into DS1s.

Why is sometime range better to melee ?…

Despite what some people have thought the community for over 2 years, melee can suffer for major losses to DPS especially since you can’t use “teh icebow” to freeze something while you do 80K DPS to it, which means you have to dodge.

Even if you play perfectly in melee and the only time you don’t DPS is when you dodge…
5 dodged in 30 sec = 5-10 sec of DPS uptime loss = 15-30% overall DPS loss
A penalty which a range build does not suffer from.

Also don’t pay much attention to that guide, it’s filled with misleading information.

Nemesis.8593:

Axe is not meant to be used as a direct damage dealing weapon, but rather as a power up weapon for DS 1 and for that it is very good yes.

You never want to be hit accidentally, come out of DS and be stuck with a staff for the next 10 sec, and GS is not always an option since the range glass build variant doesn’t use reaper.
Dagger lacks the 10% damage modifier that axe gets which does work with DS 1.

Axe – focus is used to powerup your lifeforce so you can go back into DS1s.

Why is sometime range better to melee ?…

Despite what some people have thought the community for over 2 years, melee can suffer for major losses to DPS especially since you can’t use “teh icebow” to freeze something while you do 80K DPS to it, which means you have to dodge.

Even if you play perfectly in melee and the only time you don’t DPS is when you dodge…
5 dodged in 30 sec = 5-10 sec of DPS uptime loss = 15-30% overall DPS loss
A penalty which a range build does not suffer from.

Also don’t pay much attention to that guide, it’s filled with misleading information.

Of course, you neither take into account that even as ranged build you have to stay pretty much in melee range for party buffs, range weapons in general have lower DPS and that you have to dodge as ranged weapon user too as there is enough that makes you. etc

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nemesis.8593:

Axe is not meant to be used as a direct damage dealing weapon, but rather as a power up weapon for DS 1 and for that it is very good yes.

You never want to be hit accidentally, come out of DS and be stuck with a staff for the next 10 sec, and GS is not always an option since the range glass build variant doesn’t use reaper.
Dagger lacks the 10% damage modifier that axe gets which does work with DS 1.

Axe – focus is used to powerup your lifeforce so you can go back into DS1s.

Why is sometime range better to melee ?…

Despite what some people have thought the community for over 2 years, melee can suffer for major losses to DPS especially since you can’t use “teh icebow” to freeze something while you do 80K DPS to it, which means you have to dodge.

Even if you play perfectly in melee and the only time you don’t DPS is when you dodge…
5 dodged in 30 sec = 5-10 sec of DPS uptime loss = 15-30% overall DPS loss
A penalty which a range build does not suffer from.

Also don’t pay much attention to that guide, it’s filled with misleading information.

Of course, you neither take into account that even as ranged build you have to stay pretty much in melee range for party buffs, range weapons in general have lower DPS and that you have to dodge as ranged weapon user too as there is enough that makes you. etc

False… the range glass cannon was at 100% critical strike chance before fury for over 2 years now, and it was also easily capable of sustaining it’s own might stacks after the initial buff.

Dodging at range is almost never required in fights which are designed to be tackled by bursting comps, and even if you do dodge it only breaks your next auto-attack by a small fraction since you don’t require re-positioning.

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging barely puts a dent into a condition build’s overall DPS since it doesn’t not stop the conditions that are already placed on the target from doing their damage.

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nemesis.8593:

Axe is not meant to be used as a direct damage dealing weapon, but rather as a power up weapon for DS 1 and for that it is very good yes.

You never want to be hit accidentally, come out of DS and be stuck with a staff for the next 10 sec, and GS is not always an option since the range glass build variant doesn’t use reaper.
Dagger lacks the 10% damage modifier that axe gets which does work with DS 1.

Axe – focus is used to powerup your lifeforce so you can go back into DS1s.

Why is sometime range better to melee ?…

Despite what some people have thought the community for over 2 years, melee can suffer for major losses to DPS especially since you can’t use “teh icebow” to freeze something while you do 80K DPS to it, which means you have to dodge.

Even if you play perfectly in melee and the only time you don’t DPS is when you dodge…
5 dodged in 30 sec = 5-10 sec of DPS uptime loss = 15-30% overall DPS loss
A penalty which a range build does not suffer from.

Also don’t pay much attention to that guide, it’s filled with misleading information.

Of course, you neither take into account that even as ranged build you have to stay pretty much in melee range for party buffs, range weapons in general have lower DPS and that you have to dodge as ranged weapon user too as there is enough that makes you. etc

Depends on the fight and the buffs. Blast finishers for might are 240 range (I think). Phalanx Strength, Empower Allies, Revenant Buffs, and Banners are all 600 range. So if you were to camp scepter or lich form or life blasts at 400-500 range you would be comfortably out of most melee attack range whilst likely receiving enough buffs.

Concerning Dodging, If a certain target range is so wide that everyone is forced to dodge then you’re right. But if you’re attacking a target at range 400-500 distance away and the AOE is only slightly larger then a ranged player can continue attacking, take 2 steps back, and then step forward again later.

The examples of this that come to mind are the lava shaman fractal, the ascalonian fractal boss, a couple of bosses in Dragon’s Stand, the Archdiviner (To a limited extent)

It also depends on the AOE, if the AOE is some kind of sustained damaging field or a channeled attack then melee users may be forced to leave the field or tank the damage, so it ceases to be a matter of dodging. Lack of buffs is less crippling then total lack of damage.

And on the other side it also depends on whether the AOE can be interrupted. If Anet allows for it a full melee party could forgo ever having to dodge attacks if the attacks they did need to dodge could be interrupted.

And on the other side again not all classes need to abandon all DPS uptime to dodge. If the attack is short enough the guardians have a focus, revenants, mesmers, thiefs have attacks which also grant evasion.

It would also depends on how bosses react to ranged. If the boss specifically reacts to players who attack at range by focusing on them (by chasing them around for example) having a ranged user in your party can make things unreasonable for people in melee since the boss then becomes a moving target. (For example, Ranged players make the Mai Trin fight much harder)

I think the role of icebow in allowing for uninterrupted melee is somewhat exaggerated. (Though I can’t speak for high level fractals because prior to HoT i never thought them worth playing) most risks of melee in PVE until recently were such that they could either be avoided or ignored. Even without conjures in every single dungeon except maybe Arah a full melee-glass cannon party a premade group could 1. Stability 2. Blind 3. Aegis 4. Water Field blast.

I don’t think those tactics will cut it anymore.

TLDR: Depends.

Sandrox.9524:

Lily.1935:

spoj.9672:

I’m biased against both.

But here’s some facts about staff versus axe.

Axe auto has 0.77 coefficient total per chain. The chain takes 0.95 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.81.

Staff has 0.66 coefficient total. If you factor in the 10% higher weapon strength you get 0.73 per auto. The auto takes 1.4 seconds. Which yields a coefficient per second of 0.52.

Axe is quite clearly better. Especially if you take the axe trait. Axe 2 is also a big gain over staff and axe auto’s.

You are quite clearly biased Lily. Because when you look at it objectively the facts speak for themselves.

I’m not. Its not about weapon strength its about utility. Axe doesn’t provide valuable utility. I’ve said that the damage is slightly higher without the trait. But taking the trait strips you of other valuable traits you could be taking instead to make a bad weapon slightly less bad.

And! Not only that if we take into account the strength of Death shroud or reaper’s shroud the staff provides far greater uptime of both of them because of its superior ability to generate life force. Thus increasing your overall damage far beyond that of what the axe could provide.

Another note to consider. Weapon’s damage also factors into the damage of your attacks in Death shroud and reaper’s shroud. And since staff has a higher weapon strength than axe. (Axe being 900-1,100 and staff being 1,034-1,166 respectively).

Less shroud down time means more damage when not using your primary weapon of choice.

Now now, when I sadi that staff brings only utility, you said nooooo staff is considerbly doing more dmg, and now that somone proved ya that staff doing less dmg you return to your only thing that is true, the thing I said about staff brigning only utility to the table. It might be good when you playing against thieves with no brain.But side from that, staff is very much avoidable and when you lay all your marks,you wanna pray for the swtich weapon toggle to be available.While in axe/x you have the constant pressure which with staff you dont. also I argue that using axe/warhorn gives you about same utilty as staff.

Read what I’ve said again. And then do it again because you where not listening at all. I never said Staff does considerably more damage. I said shroud does and that staff provides greater life force than the axe does which provides greater shroud up time. Note what I’ve said and don’t accuse me of saying something I didn’t.

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

Heavy armor + perma prot + other mechanics which cripple direct type power attacks only… like stealth, blink & straight up invulnerability to any and all power type attacks.

Hence fights which demand sustain type damage.

The majority of condi builds are ranged and are also extremely tanky since they required only 2 stats for max effectiveness not 3… so that removes the need for dodging entirely, hybrid builds are squishy but also range in most cases.

Dodging and missing 2 scepter auto-attacks barely puts a dent in a condi build’s overall DPS… dodging and missing a 100B attack + needing to re-position severely, cripples a power bursting type build.

These are facts which are ignored by the “math in-a-void” which eventually leads to beyond ridiculous situations where “speed clearers” used “meta builds” advertised at 20K DPS… have 6x Icebows (which use to do 80K DPS before it was nerfed in half) and still end up doing 2K DPS at Legendary Flame Shaman…

It’s hilarious and sad at the same time.

Bhawb.7408:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Now don’t get me wrong: I’m nowhere near as down on the Staff as Bhawb is. I think it has its place and, generally, the choice between it and Axe/? comes down to personal preference and the specific content at hand. But Axe/? is good, too, certainly better for single-target damage.

This is really the take away for Axe/? vs Staff. There are some situations where one is objectively better (higher power DPS on Axe vs Staff’s condition damage), but generally speaking, especially in PvP, its a matter of personal choice.

@Lily, just because I hate using staff doesn’t mean I’m incapable of seeing its strengths. Me refusing to use it in my builds is just a personal choice, I know it is stronger in certain situations, however there is also a lot of blind love for staff when it doesn’t strictly benefit your build more than another option. I just dislike it when people go overboard on bringing up what staff does while ignoring what axe brings; they’re both generally subpar weapons that have a ton of mechanics without any of them being particularly strong or unique.

A month ago you where saying that it was total crap. And before that you were saying it was even worse. We know the history of the axe and the damage it outputs isn’t higher at its peek and even then people where complaining that its life force gain is too low, damage is too low, range was too low and utility was too low. Now that it has an extra 300 range on two skills suddenly its great? I don’t understand this at all, it makes zero sense to me. All of its other problems haven’t been fixed.

Though I wasn’t in the camp about its damage or its range. I didn’t consider its range or damage to be a problem (Which it wasn’t) It was always its utility that was the problem. And its still a problem. You where even paragoning that absolutely horrible idea of giving it a blast finisher on top of the other changes.

The axe needs help. Its very sick and its dying of necrosis.

Aside from that, how’ve you been? I’ve been trying to message you but your box is full. I’d message you in game, but that kinda feels a bit too personal for my tastes.

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

Dodging and missing 2 scepter auto-attacks barely puts a dent in a condi build’s overall DPS… dodging and missing a 100B attack + needing to re-position severely, cripples a power bursting type build.

My point was that there is an effect (yes barely a dent, and much less then a melee zerker build, but its still a dent) while you said in your previous comment it doesn’t do anything. I think we should all strive to be as accurate in our statements as possible to avoid misinterpretation and confusion. There is plenty of misinformation and confusion already as you often point out yourself.

Actually for necro I’d say Condi loses more by dodging simply because the primary source of damage is from auto attack. Even if condis are still ticking you have still lost an entire auto + conditions it applied. Whereas power reaper its mostly short cast time burst skills. The only high damage you might interrupt by dodging is gravedigger. But even that can be timed correctly.

Only issue is below 50% dodging right after gravedigger will rupt the aftercast and bug the cool down. Above 50% you should only lose weak auto attacks in the rotation. All the other skills are fast enough to not be an issue.

Obviously old dagger build still loses the most by dodging.

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

In fights which demand sustain type DPS dodging doesn’t do anything to condition damage which is already stacked on the target.

This does not seem correct. If a condition damage user has to dodge, he cannot apply conditions during the time he is dodging, this means at some point you temporarily miss some bleeding/burning/chill/poison/torment you could have had if you had been able to use a condition applying skill during the time you were dodging. It is just more difficult to notice the damage drop because it is one that where the missing damage is spread over the duration of the condition you could not apply instead of straight up a big number that couldve been observed had there been no need to dodge.

Dodging and missing 2 scepter auto-attacks barely puts a dent in a condi build’s overall DPS… dodging and missing a 100B attack + needing to re-position severely, cripples a power bursting type build.

My point was that there is an effect (yes barely a dent, and much less then a melee zerker build, but its still a dent) while you said in your previous comment it doesn’t do anything. I think we should all strive to be as accurate in our statements as possible to avoid misinterpretation and confusion. There is plenty of misinformation and confusion already as you often point out yourself.

I agree. Going to edit the post to make it more accurate.

Blaine Tog.8304:

spoj.9672:

Axe fills it barely due to its range and axe 2 makes up some of the loss on the auto.

Axe 2 is actually not much of a DPS increase. I’ve run a bunch of time tests on golems and it’s really hard to puzzle out the difference in time-to-kill. It is a DPS increase, but a really, really small one, and only if you let your autoattack animation complete before starting up 2. If you pop 2 immediately every time it’s off cooldown, you’re going to interrupt an autoattack and actually lose DPS. It’s mostly just useful for the LF generation.

So if I were to cancel axe 2 as it’s coming to an end (to avoid the after cast) and switch back over to AA, would that be the best DPS?

I run axe and staff.

Come at me.

Crinn.7864:

I run axe and staff.

Come at me.

Burn the witch!

But really, I’ve realized that I’ll take staff if I feel I want more access to AoE chill and a condi transfer. If I don’t care for AoE chill at all, or I primarily just want a condi transfer, or I want the channel ability plus potentially more burst LF in smaller engagements, I’ll go axe+OH. I have to have at least one melee weapon though, or I would die inside. I’m going to try the double melee weap set-up soon, even though I love flexibility, just to see how it feels.

Salamander.2504:

Blaine Tog.8304:

spoj.9672:

Axe fills it barely due to its range and axe 2 makes up some of the loss on the auto.

Axe 2 is actually not much of a DPS increase. I’ve run a bunch of time tests on golems and it’s really hard to puzzle out the difference in time-to-kill. It is a DPS increase, but a really, really small one, and only if you let your autoattack animation complete before starting up 2. If you pop 2 immediately every time it’s off cooldown, you’re going to interrupt an autoattack and actually lose DPS. It’s mostly just useful for the LF generation.

So if I were to cancel axe 2 as it’s coming to an end (to avoid the after cast) and switch back over to AA, would that be the best DPS?

If you could cancel quickly enough, sure, that sounds right. I’m not sure how much of a DPS gain that would actually be, though. Even if spoj is right that 2 is a +25% for a few seconds on targets with capped Vuln, that’s still not actually very much additional damage, nowhere near as much of the DPS increase, say, Gravedigger is over the GS auto.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Lily.1935:

Its not a bias opinion of mine its performance. If axe actually preformed well I’d only complain about its absolutely terrible paddling animation on females. But when I’m using it and and not paying attention to its animation I’m always thinking “Ugh…. this is just dreadful I could be using staff and not be getting wreaked by everything around me.”

Also, by the way. I don’t often use soul marks. But I like the option.

It is biased, because it’s your performance. I’ve been in too many WvW roaming situations where Staff was negligibly helpful at best against blind spam, aegis spam, stealth spam, etc., for me to really like Staff. And you’d think I might like Staff against something like stealth, because you can drop AoEs, but that isn’t really how it worked out. And if that Staff #1 isn’t generating upwards of 12%+ LF per cast, that’s a whole lot of time you’re spending trying to land a non-homing, slow projectile on multiple people.

Axe clears blinds, in one of its many ticks, and still applies the rest of its pressure/LF gen, as opposed to so many other Necro abilities that are long cast times for a single hit. It continues to channel through stealth, so that Thief that just D/P combo’d back into stealth for the 10th time is still taking damage (Power, mind you, so it doesn’t have the incredible convenience Condi has in situations like that). When the Mesmer comes out of stealth with Aegis, you channel for LF generation, blow any blinds/aegis, and apply some pressure/get some LF to boot. Did that Medi guard just pop Shield of Wrath? 3 ticks from Axe #2 and it’s gone, instead of 3 slow hits that may or may not land.

And that’s all just channel usefulness. It doesn’t have to kill them in 2 channels, but as long as it applies pressure and gets me some LF generation, great. The boon corruption + AoE cripple is nice for some control while you’re in vulnerable-mode. The off-hand can be anything you want it to be.

I mainly just don’t want anyone to be completely discouraged from trying it. As with most things in MMOs, personal style can be a major component. Someone might be really good at managing DoTs, but struggle with a burn-phase style. Maybe someone can instinctually support/heal, but doesn’t know when the time is right to dive for the kill.

This is prime example of the diffrences betwin somone who do roams than somone who pretend to roam, no matter what you gonna say Lily, true roaming ppl know and tested staff and played it enough to realize it underpreform with reaper spec. I am 100% sure this guy is a roamer cause he got spot on the same problem with staff and the same advantage with axe I came up with, so I kbow this guy roames and actually experinenced the same thing. I think you should roam up a bit, and not running with zergs cause staff is still better for running in zerg cause of aoe and soul marks actually gives you lf for each enemy.That said you can run axe/warhorn which works good too.In spvp I run power signet necro with axe/focus for maxmize boon removal, which decimate bunkers namely guardians and cele eles and it owns!

“good”?….no.

if you are power and want ranged and an offhand, then you use it.

From my point of view:

Staff is great tool but it feel like slowpoke and don’t add up to my Power/Toughness/Ferocity Reaper build.
Axe/Focus on other hand has more vuln stacking capabilites what give me huge opening profit for decimate defenses. When target is out of boons and rended vulnerable switch to GS and simply finish him with fatality 10k+ gravedigger.

Staff with my build won’t work that way. It simply won’t provide that kind of opening like Axe/Focus is doing.

Everybody keeps comparing staff to axe, but staff should be compared to axe/offhand. I’ve been using GS Axe/Warhorn in pvp with my reaper and I’ve had some great matches with Axe/Warhorn with my power build. The LF generation I get from warhorn 5 and Axe 2 is easily on par with what I’d expect to get from staff in pvp.

Also, since Anet recently added the new option “Allow Skill Retargeting”, Axe 2 works much better in pvp. I have “Next Enemy” keybound to V which is vital for me in pvp with changing my target when I’ve been taunted. With that option ticked and me quickly tapping V after someone dodges out of my Axe 2 skill, I normally land a decent burst on somebody and get almost guaranteed LF generation as long as the skill isn’t outright interrupted.

Also Axe 3 is amazing when its timed right. I love it when I see a thief coming at me and then go stealth. I know the distance it takes for shadowstep, and as long as I time Unholy Feast right, that back stab burst basically kills the thief while I hit Warhorn 5 uninterrupted to almost finish them off with. And the boon stripping along with well of power is too good to pass up. I get retaliation with stability and then swap to GS for gravedigger or go reaper shroud. I can rip so many boons from almost everybody near me while I defend a point and then when someone tries to get out of range I swap back to axe and burst them with skill 2.

But thats in pvp. In PvE axe feels extremely weak compared to the utility that staff brings. When I can AoE numerous mobs for loot compared to axe only hitting a single enemy its not efficient.

I’ve mentioned this before in another necro axe topic, the axe trait needs to be changed to make axe usable in pve:

Unholy Fervor is currently:

Reduce recharge of axe skills. Axe skills deal increased damage to vulnerable foes.
Damage Increase: 10%
Recharge Reduced: 20%

I’d like to see it changed to:

Reduce recharge of axe skills. Rending Claws is now an AoE skill (Radius: 240 from target)
Number of Targets: 5 (or 3 if this seems to strong)
Recharge Reduced: 20%

And even then Axe 1 would need to get a damage increase separate from the trait. Axe 1 is almost pointless in pvp anyway but if it had AoE it’d be much better. In PvE, Axe 1 having AoE would be good for tagging mobs, but without increased damage staff would still be better since the AA does more damage and hits multiple enemies.
Axe in pve is only good for world bosses and specific solo target enemies.

Sandrox.9524:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Lily.1935:

Its not a bias opinion of mine its performance. If axe actually preformed well I’d only complain about its absolutely terrible paddling animation on females. But when I’m using it and and not paying attention to its animation I’m always thinking “Ugh…. this is just dreadful I could be using staff and not be getting wreaked by everything around me.”

Also, by the way. I don’t often use soul marks. But I like the option.

It is biased, because it’s your performance. I’ve been in too many WvW roaming situations where Staff was negligibly helpful at best against blind spam, aegis spam, stealth spam, etc., for me to really like Staff. And you’d think I might like Staff against something like stealth, because you can drop AoEs, but that isn’t really how it worked out. And if that Staff #1 isn’t generating upwards of 12%+ LF per cast, that’s a whole lot of time you’re spending trying to land a non-homing, slow projectile on multiple people.

Axe clears blinds, in one of its many ticks, and still applies the rest of its pressure/LF gen, as opposed to so many other Necro abilities that are long cast times for a single hit. It continues to channel through stealth, so that Thief that just D/P combo’d back into stealth for the 10th time is still taking damage (Power, mind you, so it doesn’t have the incredible convenience Condi has in situations like that). When the Mesmer comes out of stealth with Aegis, you channel for LF generation, blow any blinds/aegis, and apply some pressure/get some LF to boot. Did that Medi guard just pop Shield of Wrath? 3 ticks from Axe #2 and it’s gone, instead of 3 slow hits that may or may not land.

And that’s all just channel usefulness. It doesn’t have to kill them in 2 channels, but as long as it applies pressure and gets me some LF generation, great. The boon corruption + AoE cripple is nice for some control while you’re in vulnerable-mode. The off-hand can be anything you want it to be.

I mainly just don’t want anyone to be completely discouraged from trying it. As with most things in MMOs, personal style can be a major component. Someone might be really good at managing DoTs, but struggle with a burn-phase style. Maybe someone can instinctually support/heal, but doesn’t know when the time is right to dive for the kill.

This is prime example of the diffrences betwin somone who do roams than somone who pretend to roam, no matter what you gonna say Lily, true roaming ppl know and tested staff and played it enough to realize it underpreform with reaper spec. I am 100% sure this guy is a roamer cause he got spot on the same problem with staff and the same advantage with axe I came up with, so I kbow this guy roames and actually experinenced the same thing. I think you should roam up a bit, and not running with zergs cause staff is still better for running in zerg cause of aoe and soul marks actually gives you lf for each enemy.That said you can run axe/warhorn which works good too.In spvp I run power signet necro with axe/focus for maxmize boon removal, which decimate bunkers namely guardians and cele eles and it owns!

Actually I do a tone of solo roaming. Because of my work scheduled I don’t get much time to do much else. Running in a zerg? Rarely.

Some changes that would probably help axe out a tone is changing its auto to a chain skill. This gives you the ability to cancel after the first or second to go into a higher power skill and a change to retaliation to a stacking boon. Both these changes could give the axe what it needs.

Personally, I’d like to see something along the lines of giving the axe bonus damage the closer you are to a foe rather than if they’re vulnerable but that’s just me.

But Stacking retaliation is another topic entirely.

Axe is still very bad. Just try running power necro vs a dragonhunter or longbow ranger when they start spamming 1 and 2 from their max range( or any ranged spec really). By the time u get in range for axe u will have taken many hits or used dodges, with the axe barely tickling them compared to their damage. The weapon clearly gives me a huge disadvantage in pvp, it’s pretty disheartening…

OMNIBUS.2913:

Axe is still very bad. Just try running power necro vs a dragonhunter or longbow ranger when they start spamming 1 and 2 from their max range( or any ranged spec really). By the time u get in range for axe u will have taken many hits or used dodges, with the axe barely tickling them compared to their damage. The weapon clearly gives me a huge disadvantage in pvp, it’s pretty disheartening…

Except DH and Ranger are useless if you have projectile defense, something axe ignores completely

Pelopidas.2140:

OMNIBUS.2913:

Axe is still very bad. Just try running power necro vs a dragonhunter or longbow ranger when they start spamming 1 and 2 from their max range( or any ranged spec really). By the time u get in range for axe u will have taken many hits or used dodges, with the axe barely tickling them compared to their damage. The weapon clearly gives me a huge disadvantage in pvp, it’s pretty disheartening…

Except DH and Ranger are useless if you have projectile defense, something axe ignores completely

I could bring corrosive poison cloud and gut my damage as well as have a useless util in pvp against everyone who doesn’t use projectiles( on power build u will still lose anyway if the ranger/dh has a brain, if i wana kill a dragonhunter ill go condi reaper) as im power necro for running axe, and not condi. Axe still does terrible damage, and ignoring projectile defence is useless if it just tickles~ i dont see your point.

His point isn’t necessarily in a guard vs necro duel, but in general, non-projectiles are “stickier” than projectiles. They don’t offer combos, for sure, but you aren’t vulnerable to reflecting your own axe 2 back at yourself, unlike true shot.

Alright, I’ve got it. The change for axe, “Frozen Claws.” Instead of vuln, apply 1s of chill with the autoattack. Gives it utility as power and condi without making it a strictly condi weapon and enhances its strength as a sticky weapon. While you’re pressuring with your 1 (and doing crap damage with it) your target isn’t going anywhere. The short duration means if you stop to do anything else, it wears off. But in a team situation is a great way to peel. Seems to synergize well (and even fits with the spite theme reasonably well) and gets rid of the often redundant vuln that’s not necessary or an inefficient use of our cast times.

Wouldn’t do much for PvE, but I don’t know what hope there is for it in PvE. 900 range instant attack is hard to balance, so I think give it utility over anything. It would be an amazing kiting weapon. Probably too good at that though, or at least very unfun to play against. imagine the frustration of a class with no way to escape your grasp. I guess it would be limited to one target, and he’d never die from it. Resistance would be a spectacular counter but is still very uncommon.

OMNIBUS.2913:

Pelopidas.2140:

OMNIBUS.2913:

Axe is still very bad. Just try running power necro vs a dragonhunter or longbow ranger when they start spamming 1 and 2 from their max range( or any ranged spec really). By the time u get in range for axe u will have taken many hits or used dodges, with the axe barely tickling them compared to their damage. The weapon clearly gives me a huge disadvantage in pvp, it’s pretty disheartening…

Except DH and Ranger are useless if you have projectile defense, something axe ignores completely

I could bring corrosive poison cloud and gut my damage as well as have a useless util in pvp against everyone who doesn’t use projectiles( on power build u will still lose anyway if the ranger/dh has a brain, if i wana kill a dragonhunter ill go condi reaper) as im power necro for running axe, and not condi. Axe still does terrible damage, and ignoring projectile defence is useless if it just tickles~ i dont see your point.

CPC is pretty good against most folks that don’t use projectiles as well. Drop it on yourself and only those ranged, no-projectile builds can really fight effectively.

Ironically, this is basically just Necro. Mesmer can do it too when using Greatsword, but all of their other weapons get neutered by the skill.